The author talks about the mistakes made by the Warhammer developers and yet can't figure out that he is taking a portion of the MMO industry and attempting to pawn it off as representative of the entire Industry.
Dana, you need to get out more. Your complaint is directed at the EQ / Wow clones, which, while making up a good portion of the industry do not represent the entirety of it.
There are very successful games that avoid your problem entirely. The first one that comes to mind is Eve. UO is another that did not have your problem. There are others more recent in this category and some that will be releasing in the next year or so.
As to Star Wars, the Old Republic, they are also stuck in the character class and level rut. Whether they can overcome this huge handicap we will just have to wait and see.
The author talks about the mistakes made by the Warhammer developers and yet can't figure out that he is taking a portion of the MMO industry and attempting to pawn it off as representative of the entire Industry. Dana, you need to get out more. Your complaint is directed at the EQ / Wow clones, which, while making up a good portion of the industry do not represent the entirety of it. There are very successful games that avoid your problem entirely. The first one that comes to mind is Eve. UO is another that did not have your problem. There are others more recent in this category and some that will be releasing in the next year or so. As to Star Wars, the Old Republic, they are also stuck in the character class and level rut. Whether they can overcome this huge handicap we will just have to wait and see.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Very good points. Its too bad WoW is so successful. B/c of it, it will be hard to make games where 'levels' are not the focus.
I like your idea, and I think you're right on.
Thanks to the Motion controllers and the natal, debuted at E3, I think you'll see in some near future the inclusion of these devices in a MMO setting. Your character could tie movements, individualized to specific spells and combat manuvers, where where you HIT makes the difference. YOu could have specific gesutres that have to be learned and mastered in the correct fashion to produce spells. The limits are endless.
tw!
I am still reading the whole post but i cant let that statement go un opposed.
WOW can hardly be blamed for levels being the easy way out for developers.
levels are simply left over form the days of Table top RPGs and have stuck around due to there usefulness in designing content and balance.
I can't say I like leveling but it is hardly and invention of WOW and more that WOW is perpetuating its ussgae.
Now I will continue to read the other 78 comments.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
It's about measurables. In single person RPGs, you've got a static story line to follow - even if there are different paths through it. The measurable is the point in that storyline. In MMOs, you have a wide variety of choices and the measurable is your level and class. For example: In RPGs, arriving at a certain city measures how far you've gotten in a game. In MMOs, you have several dozen cities to visit and that feat does not measure your advancement.
AC1 was fantasic It more than any gmae made me not care about level and there was no end game. There was a monthly story arc that progresses that gave people the feel of a static world.
Whole towns were razed to the ground for the sake of story.
Other games are unchanging boring worlds by comparison to AC 1
AC was fantastic.
...
Very few actually do that and the three I mentioned are UO, SWG preNGE and EvE got it right....98% of the others got it wrong.
I'd add Asheron's Call 1 to that list. Turbine didn't have the notoriety that Sony did back then which is in part why so many people went to EQ over AC. People go with what they are familiar with, for good or bad. AC1 defintely deserves more face time and recognition than what mainstream gaming media gives.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
I disagree with this articles, i think if u dont like how a mmo works, feel, play, or whatever, just dont play it, mmos dont have to adapt, but players have to adapt. and if u asked me that question i would had answered a death knight, right now attempting yogg-saron, thats storyline. its stupid to ask for the level, if you play a game 'seriously' its obvious your already max level, and what you been doing is farm content, go threw content, explore new content. levels is just a ladder to rank content.
you've got it all wrong.
and what will happen when a play levelup in your new 'system' its bul%$^@^
see the similarity? here WE ALL FREAKED OUT WHEN WE LEVELED AND WHEN WE KILLED CONTENT!
dont try to break what has been working perfecly for over 20 years or more of mmo history or even just RPGs.
Just a couple things I wanted to mention about this, 1st of all, no one is saying that EVERY mmo should become like EVE or Fable, but it gets old that there are so few that aren't what everyone has begun calling a "WoW clone". 2nd, it won't change people being excited about killing content, in fact it makes them more excited about it because they wont have already killed Forest Brown Bear 100 times, and still have 100 more to go before their quest is done and they can get a new pair of boots and a few exp points. Even at end game in WoW, what is there to do but farm dungeons, farm arena points, farm honor points, farm crafting/AH items, or farm dailies? And don't go saying that I just haven't played WoW enough, I played it from the day it came out to just a few months ago. It isn't a bad game like many people say, it's a well polished, fun game, it would just be nice to see some mmos that are different enough that when I play them I don't get the feeling that I'm playing WoW all over again. Not to mention not everyone enjoys just killing one mob after another, just to have them spawn again a few minutes later so that we can kill them again.
I'm really hoping that one of the new mmos coming out can break this safetly harness chaining mmos to levels and grind. I'm very hopeful for Global Agenda, it has a solid formula that has worked for many single player games, and hopefully they can successfully implement it into an mmo. Also, I've been keeping track of Mortal Online for some time now. It's skills based system looks like it will have some fun unlockable content based on your combination of skills, and it has some other excellent ideas. My main worry with MO is that they will skimp on the content and just become another Darkfail. I haven't taken a look at the KotOR mmo, but from the little I've seen it also has some good potential to break the mmo genre away from the "WoW clone" safety harness.
I think personally that current day MMOG's are their own enemy.
They are mainstream, but the mainstream way of thinking are killing MMOG's that try and do things just a little differently. Gaining equipment, levels and such things have become too easy. Everyone has access to everything, which just makes the achivement bland and sour. MMOG's are pacing themselves very very hard and the studioes behind the games have problems keeping up with that pace, which causes people to abandon the game.
Everything feels more or less the same, and yes I blame you World of Warcraft
It's about measurables. In single person RPGs, you've got a static story line to follow - even if there are different paths through it. The measurable is the point in that storyline. In MMOs, you have a wide variety of choices and the measurable is your level and class. For example: In RPGs, arriving at a certain city measures how far you've gotten in a game. In MMOs, you have several dozen cities to visit and that feat does not measure your advancement.
Yeah, but couldn't a MMORPG be built that had the same advancement feel as that single player RPG? If you get to that city, you've made it to a certain level. Like, without ports, someone who gets to Shatterath has to be at least 58, to make a WoW analogy?
I think in a way FFXI accomplishes this. Even though leveling *is* important in XI.. reaching or unlocking certain areas is definitely a measure of progress.
Getting to Jeuno for the first time, for example. Most people go there at level 20.. but getting level 20 isn't the accomplishment itself. Getting to Jeuno means you can now get your chocobo license, which takes traveling to a whole new level (can travel farther in less time, no aggro while riding, etc.).. Jeuno also happens to be the access point to 3 other areas... Qufim Island, and then 2 others, including either Rolanberry Fields, Batallia Downs or Sauromugue Champaign - depending on which direction you came from).
After that, you have getting Sky access to look forward to, which is another achievement that unlocks a whole new area of gameplay. Then there's Tavnazian Archipelago, another new region with lots of content. Beyond that, there's "Sea"... and so on. You tell someone "I finally got access to Sea!" and they know exactly what that means, what you had to accomplish to get there, and why it's significant.
In a way, when I think about it, FFXI is full of those sorts of mini-milestones to reach... both those set by the game for everyone, and those set by players for themselves. Job and level are discussed, but when I think about it, people really tend to speak in terms of specific accomplishments in FFXI. Levels tend to be discussed only in what they unlock for the player and, so, certain levels are emphasized... and again, people understand why when you tell them. As one example, if you tell them you hit level 40 Black Mage, they're likely going to know the significance of that... You learn Warp II - a very useful spell, indeed... As one other, getting to level 30 on Thief is significant because you get access to Trick Attack at that level... an ability that when combined with "Sneak Attack", makes for very powerful attacks, but also very useful for placing aggro where it's wanted/needed in a fight, etc.
Another example is specific battles... Tell someone you defeated Alexander, and - so long as they know who that is - they're going to understand the accomplishment in that and, of course, what it means about your progress in the game.
The examples go on and on...
But in all, I agree with Dana's article. Many MMOs and, by extension, gamers have reduced MMOs down to filling up xp bars in the most "mathematically efficient" way... and any content that doesn't contribute to that equation is typically ignored.
The trouble is, developers have also gotten lazy to where the majority of what they call "Quests" are little more than fetch-and-kill routines. A player isn't given the opportunity to become engrossed in the content along the way, because there's nothing engrossing about collecting 50 wolf fangs, or killing 30 wild boars. In those cases, the quests merely become part of the equation in the players' race to level cap.
In a way, it kinda raises a very "chicken or egg" type question...
Did the players put most focus on leveling as a result of a lack of interesting content from the developers?
Or...
Did the developers reduce the content to mere fetch-and-kill routines due to players reducing quests down to little more than another way to fill up their xp bar, not bothering to read or become at all engaged in the story behind it?
Either way... it's a cyclical pattern, I think... one side continuously feeds the other, all in the name of "faster leveling".
I've brought this up in another thread, but I think it bears repeating here...
Why should a developer expend the time and money to create an elaborate storyline with interesting challenges requiring thought or strategy when players aren't going to read the story, and will merely go to some online guide to walk through it as fast as possible anyway so they can collect their reward and move on to the next one?
I think it could also be looked at in terms of how so many MMO players now believe reaching end-game is the only meaningful goal in the game. So, in that light, getting there as fast as possible is key, and what level they are is their measure of progress.
So perhaps if some other developers can find a way to take the focus off "end-game only", demote leveling to a "means to an end", rather than an end in itself and get players interested in the entire game from level 1 again, we'll see a change. But, as was said.. players have been "programmed" to approach MMOs in a specific way, and it's not going to be easy to change that.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Let me start by saying great article and so far a pretty good read through the replies.
Even though it's been a good read, the thread should've ended with Sylvene's post about "measurables". Measurables are essentially the heart of any rpg and is what separates it from your basic adventure game or fps. Pretty much all games today have some kind of story attatched to them. What makes an rpg an rpg is character progression through some kind of measurable. We can remove levels altogether, but they'll only be replaced by some new concept as a way to gauge progress. If they're not replaced, then your rpg just became an fps or platformer or action-adventure.
Of course all of this is my own opinion but this is what I think has happened to mmorpgs to bring them to the state they're in.
1. Lack of Challenge. There's alot ot be said for the concept of risk vs reward. Not only does something that challenges you get your blood flowing, but if the reward is there, that true feeling of accomplishment is all the driving force needed in an rpg. In my opinion, mmorpgs have become too trivial. Of course, level grinding is boring, there's absolutely no challenge to it. You walk out the gate, see a creature that is within an appropriate level range and its icon indicates that it is solable so you attack it and kill it with ease. Where's the fun in that? One of the worst things that happened to me in gaming was going from a game that only gave general indication of a mobs difficulty to one that flat out told me I could beat X mob everytime.
2. Community. So let's not beat around the bush. We pay monthly fees for the ability to play online with other players and feel like we're part of something wonderful, unique, and larger than what we experience in everyday "real" life. (Well, I'm sure most of us do, anyway. There are the few that pay just for the chance to annoy the others.) So when in the heck did it become the norm to solo the majority of content? More importantly, WHY? Well, it's probably because our goals shifted from having fun in the virtual word we're sharing with these other people to racing to the "measurable" cap that is supposed to somehow make us feel superior to those who haven't got there yet. People don't want to "waste time" exploring, traveling, or just enjoying the scenery. They want instant access to EXP and the more the better. Again bringing around the assumption that levels are merely obstacles.
Well, what have we gained from that phase shift? A really frustrated and pissed off community that is less friendly and rarely in the mood to socialize. General chats filled with mindless arguments and regurgitated memes. Endless quest grinding where people would just as soon be inconsiderate to those around them than waste precious seconds that could be used for grinding other quests.
Again, in my opinion, I think what we've seen recently is the blur of once distinct lines of gaming genres. Every mmo is now expected to appeal to the role players, the PVPers, the twitch gamers, the min-maxers, the tradeskillers, the platformers, the FPSers, etc. But in all the new tricks and latest advances, the mmorpg lost its true essence. The MMO part and the RPG part.
Note: I'm at the office and was interrupted and kinda lost my train of thought there. But all in all, I think my opinion was expressed.
The author talks about the mistakes made by the Warhammer developers and yet can't figure out that he is taking a portion of the MMO industry and attempting to pawn it off as representative of the entire Industry. Dana, you need to get out more. Your complaint is directed at the EQ / Wow clones, which, while making up a good portion of the industry do not represent the entirety of it. There are very successful games that avoid your problem entirely. The first one that comes to mind is Eve. UO is another that did not have your problem. There are others more recent in this category and some that will be releasing in the next year or so. As to Star Wars, the Old Republic, they are also stuck in the character class and level rut. Whether they can overcome this huge handicap we will just have to wait and see.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach.
However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet.
By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years.
Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach. However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet. By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years. Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
The author talks about the mistakes made by the Warhammer developers and yet can't figure out that he is taking a portion of the MMO industry and attempting to pawn it off as representative of the entire Industry. Dana, you need to get out more. Your complaint is directed at the EQ / Wow clones, which, while making up a good portion of the industry do not represent the entirety of it. There are very successful games that avoid your problem entirely. The first one that comes to mind is Eve. UO is another that did not have your problem. There are others more recent in this category and some that will be releasing in the next year or so. As to Star Wars, the Old Republic, they are also stuck in the character class and level rut. Whether they can overcome this huge handicap we will just have to wait and see.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach.
However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet.
By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years.
Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
The author talks about the mistakes made by the Warhammer developers and yet can't figure out that he is taking a portion of the MMO industry and attempting to pawn it off as representative of the entire Industry. Dana, you need to get out more. Your complaint is directed at the EQ / Wow clones, which, while making up a good portion of the industry do not represent the entirety of it. There are very successful games that avoid your problem entirely. The first one that comes to mind is Eve. UO is another that did not have your problem. There are others more recent in this category and some that will be releasing in the next year or so. As to Star Wars, the Old Republic, they are also stuck in the character class and level rut. Whether they can overcome this huge handicap we will just have to wait and see.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach.
However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet.
By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years.
Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
Marketing will not sell bad SUB based game... sorry m8.
WoW has proofed that "quality" in the right departments pays off. It just happens that those departments also support millions of ppl playing the game on low spec PCs.
Let me make pretty clear example here. You can go into a tower or an Inn in WOW and they all have the exsact same basic look. Still - It somehow didn't bother me. Cause what I was doing in there mattered more than what I was looking at.
Now... I have played quite a few MMOs (WAR - AOC just for example) that have much more variety in graphics and looks when it comes to these kinda places. But ... somehow I end up logging out of those games bored to death doing the same thing over and over and over again - even when the places LOOK diffrent. Not to mention that the look is causing alot of loading screens that has nothing to do with why Im going to these places... Cause - doing quests has nothing to do with loading screens... Dont take me wrong tho - I love RPG games that have alot of "diffrent" looking places - like NWN for example. It actually adds alot do these kinda games while it adds ONLY loading screens to the MMOs (for me that is.
I find WAR to be pretty much the exact problem with MMOs atm. It all sounds good - even looks ok. But underneath are so many basic flaws that push ppl away from the game. It sinks in over time and since WAR is not really fixing the real issues - very few ppl will give the game a second chance.
I want to end on a simple question that might open some eyes. Why does a PVP content need to reward ppl with other than winning ? Why do ppl need more - Like items or lvls for example ? If you want to show your quality in PVP then you should beat ppl on your skills - not on the gear you wear. ....
Khaunshar "Guild Wars actually does its PvE Progression primarily through storyline in the Expansions Factions and Nightfall."
Thank you, I was wondering if someone was going to mention Guild Wars. I thought of GW when I read the article and some of the descriptions that would make a mmo better.
steuss "it will be hard to make games where 'levels' are not the focus"
I don't think it would be that hard actually. Just make a lower lvl cap as Guild Wars did and make the focus on the actual content in the game such as the "instances" that can be played with a one person party that has henchmen or a group of multiple players. GW also focuses on skills more than levels. You earn skills or buy them depending on your preference/progress in the game. I'm sure some developers out there can think of some way to take the boredom out of constantly hacking on some thing and make a game enjoyable. I use GW as example because it is the only MMO that I can think of, that I play, that doesn't focus on level but instead skills, player or activated skill. Oh and I didn't like the level capping at 20 at first and gripped about having to only choose 8 skills or so out of the many I earned. I got use to it though. I actually enjoy unlocking the different areas through out the game.
As for War, I played beta...hated it, played after it was released...hated it but I've taken an interest in it again since it is different than the grind fest free to play games I'm use to. That must be why I fluctuate between at least 4 different game atm. I get bored of one type of play style and play a different one then come back later when I tire of that one.
The author talks about the mistakes made by the Warhammer developers and yet can't figure out that he is taking a portion of the MMO industry and attempting to pawn it off as representative of the entire Industry. Dana, you need to get out more. Your complaint is directed at the EQ / Wow clones, which, while making up a good portion of the industry do not represent the entirety of it. There are very successful games that avoid your problem entirely. The first one that comes to mind is Eve. UO is another that did not have your problem. There are others more recent in this category and some that will be releasing in the next year or so. As to Star Wars, the Old Republic, they are also stuck in the character class and level rut. Whether they can overcome this huge handicap we will just have to wait and see.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach.
However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet.
By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years.
Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
Marketing will not sell bad SUB based game... sorry m8.
WoW has proofed that "quality" in the right departments pays off. It just happens that those departments also support millions of ppl playing the game on low spec PCs.
Let me make pretty clear example here. You can go into a tower or an Inn in WOW and they all have the exsact same basic look. Still - It somehow didn't bother me. Cause what I was doing in there mattered more than what I was looking at.
Now... I have played quite a few MMOs (WAR - AOC just for example) that have much more variety in graphics and looks when it comes to these kinda places. But ... somehow I end up logging out of those games bored to death doing the same thing over and over and over again - even when the places LOOK diffrent. Not to mention that the look is causing alot of loading screens that has nothing to do with why Im going to these places... Cause - doing quests has nothing to do with loading screens... Dont take me wrong tho - I love RPG games that have alot of "diffrent" looking places - like NWN for example. It actually adds alot do these kinda games while it adds ONLY loading screens to the MMOs (for me that is.
I find WAR to be pretty much the exact problem with MMOs atm. It all sounds good - even looks ok. But underneath are so many basic flaws that push ppl away from the game. It sinks in over time and since WAR is not really fixing the real issues - very few ppl will give the game a second chance.
I want to end on a simple question that might open some eyes. Why does a PVP content need to reward ppl with other than winning ? Why do ppl need more - Like items or lvls for example ? If you want to show your quality in PVP then you should beat ppl on your skills - not on the gear you wear. ....
Umm, where in my reply did I ever say WoW was a "bad SUB based game", M8? I was merely making a point regarding Dana's comment in the previous post that WoW, "perfected the style".
You WoWheads are all alike, so quick to defend your game, that you often don't even have a clue as to the point someone else is trying to make. Unbelievable, no wonder it is so often referred to as World of Warcrack.
Oh, and last but not least, I will quote the following from you:
"WoW has proofed that "quality" in the right departments pays off. It just happens that those departments also support millions of ppl playing the game on low spec PCs."
Hate to open your eyes Bub, but that thing there, that you described above...Umm, THAT'S MARKETING! Designing the game so that it can play on just about any PC, when there are already games that clearly set the graphics bar higher is a marketing decision. Clearly implemented so that the company's product will appeal to more people and therefore sell to a wider audience...MARKETING!
I enjoyed reading this article and some of the responses as well.
I love the MMO genre and prefer it over the RPG single-player experience.
I started playing MMOs in 2002, starting with EQ, so I'm not an expert
Seeing a game that embraces the actual medium of the MMO is what I'm waiting for.
In no particular order:
1) MMOs imho need to move away from the D&D/Fantasy aspects of game play and mechanics. Look towards the future - space travel, different solar systems, life forms. Embrace the virtual world for what it is - a virtual space where the environment is written in code. "Magic" can still be a part of this in some areas of this MMO universe.
2) The obvious fact that there are players interacting and interconnected via the computer world needs to be exploited in the story-line plot. What I'm trying to get at is something like the "Otherworld" book series or even "The Matrix".
3) Static roles that characters play need to be done away with (tank, healer, etc.) As a computer world, we should be able to form and shape our characters to what our particular group needs at the moment. (EVE does something like this in that you can train any skill that you have purchased.)
4) Travel should not be a commodity held tightly by the developers. This is a computer world - use your imagination! Let travel be ingenious, less cumbersome, less of a chore.
5) Artificial hurdles placed there because of dogma, tradition, or lack of imagination, should be torn down and reshaped from the ground up. This is a very general statement purposefully. I would like every aspect of the MMO to be looked at and challenged.
6) Crafting of items should not be an afterthought to the game. Crafting should be a puzzle but not puzzling. It should be rewarding and difficult, but not tedious.
7) The economy of the game needs to be consistent and harsh. If players aren't playing and crafting, item availability should reflect that.
These are just some of my thoughts, hastily put together, but brewing in my mind. If I won the Powerball, making an MMO would be one of the things I would undertake.
There is so much potential within the MMO but because of business, we are being dealt the same old same old. I'm not sure that using a known vehicle for the MMO (Star Wars, The Matrix, Song of Fire and Ice) is the best way to go - people will already have preconceived notions about what the world is like and so deviation would not be tolerated. In that sense, EVE is an undertaking that deserves recognition.
I hope I get to see an MMO break through the boundaries and really push the limit of our expectations....
I enjoyed reading this article and some of the responses as well. I love the MMO genre and prefer it over the RPG single-player experience. I started playing MMOs in 2002, starting with EQ, so I'm not an expert Seeing a game that embraces the actual medium of the MMO is what I'm waiting for. In no particular order: 1) MMOs imho need to move away from the D&D/Fantasy aspects of game play and mechanics. Look towards the future - space travel, different solar systems, life forms. Embrace the virtual world for what it is - a virtual space where the environment is written in code. "Magic" can still be a part of this in some areas of this MMO universe. 2) The obvious fact that there are players interacting and interconnected via the computer world needs to be exploited in the story-line plot. What I'm trying to get at is something like the "Otherworld" book series or even "The Matrix". 3) Static roles that characters play need to be done away with (tank, healer, etc.) As a computer world, we should be able to form and shape our characters to what our particular group needs at the moment. (EVE does something like this in that you can train any skill that you have purchased.) 4) Travel should not be a commodity held tightly by the developers. This is a computer world - use your imagination! Let travel be ingenious. 5) Artificial hurdles placed there because of dogma, tradition, or lack of imagination, should be torn down and reshaped from the ground up. This is a very general statement purposefully. I would like every aspect of the MMO to be looked at and challenged. 6) Crafting of items should not be an afterthought to the game. 7) The economy of the game needs to be consistent and harsh. If players aren't playing and crafting, item availability should reflect that.
These are just some of my thoughts, hastily put together, but brewing in my mind. If I won the Powerball, making an MMO would be one of the things I would undertake. There is so much potential within the MMO but because of business, we are being dealt the same old same old. I'm not sure that using a known vehicle for the MMO (Star Wars, The Matrix, Song of Fire and Ice) is the best way to go - people will already have preconceived notions about what the world is like and so deviation would not be tolerated. In that sense, EVE is an undertaking that deserves recognition. I hope I get to see an MMO break through the boundaries and really push the limit of our expectations....
Very well said. I couldn't agree more with the first point that you made regarding moving away from D&D/Fantasy genre. I'm looking forward to Star Trek Online, the next good super hero MMO, and (although it's Sciene Fiction/Fantasy) Swtor, for that very reason.
I also think you have a very valid point with the third item on your list. I've often wondered why more games haven't taken this approach, but instead continue to be so cookie-cutter.
Umm, where in my reply did I ever say WoW was a "bad SUB based game", M8? I was merely making a point regarding Dana's comment in the previous post that WoW, "perfected the style". You WoWheads are all alike, so quick to defend your game, that you often don't even have a clue as to the point someone else is trying to make. Unbelievable, no wonder it is so often referred to as World of Warcrack. Oh, and last but not least, I will quote the following from you: "WoW has proofed that "quality" in the right departments pays off. It just happens that those departments also support millions of ppl playing the game on low spec PCs." Hate to open your eyes Bub, but that thing there, that you described above...Umm, THAT'S MARKETING! Designing the game so that it can play on just about any PC, when there are already games that clearly set the graphics bar higher is a marketing decision. Clearly implemented so that the company's product will appeal to more people and therefore sell to a wider audience...MARKETING! Thanks for helping me prove my point though.
Maketing disission or gameplay disission? Do ppl like to play fast pased open world, few loading screen games ? It seems so... Thats game design tho - one that makes WOW stand out from games like EQ.
And if WOW is nothing but marketing... then how bad are the other MMOs? Im sorry but releasing a good solid game with clear vision focused on gameplay and coop (like orginally in WOW) is hopefully what every MMO developer is aiming for. To me it has nothing to do with marketing tho... it has to do with respecting the custimors that buy the product. And this is exactly where games like WAR and AOC have totally failed on release.
BTW - Im not a WOW fan and don't play it anymore. But I respect 100% what Blizzard have been doing for the last 4 years. I dont like everything that they have done and I hated some parts of it. So take your "your a fan" bullshit somewhere else. Overall the core game design of WOW is by far the best any MMO game has ever offered. And they have been able to add a layer of polish upon that - unlike what many other MMOs have been able to do. Call that Marketing.. or call that showing a tiny bit of respect for the custimors that buy your product...
Umm, where in my reply did I ever say WoW was a "bad SUB based game", M8? I was merely making a point regarding Dana's comment in the previous post that WoW, "perfected the style". You WoWheads are all alike, so quick to defend your game, that you often don't even have a clue as to the point someone else is trying to make. Unbelievable, no wonder it is so often referred to as World of Warcrack. Oh, and last but not least, I will quote the following from you: "WoW has proofed that "quality" in the right departments pays off. It just happens that those departments also support millions of ppl playing the game on low spec PCs." Hate to open your eyes Bub, but that thing there, that you described above...Umm, THAT'S MARKETING! Designing the game so that it can play on just about any PC, when there are already games that clearly set the graphics bar higher is a marketing decision. Clearly implemented so that the company's product will appeal to more people and therefore sell to a wider audience...MARKETING! Thanks for helping me prove my point though.
Maketing disission or gameplay disission? Do ppl like to play fast pased open world, few loading screen games ? It seems so... Thats game design tho - one that makes WOW stand out from games like EQ.
And if WOW is nothing but marketing... then how bad are the other MMOs? Im sorry but releasing a good solid game with clear vision focused on gameplay and coop (like orginally in WOW) is hopefully what every MMO developer is aiming for. To me it has nothing to do with marketing tho... it has to do with respecting the custimors that buy the product. And this is exactly where games like WAR and AOC have totally failed on release.
BTW - Im not a WOW fan and don't play it anymore. But I respect 100% what Blizzard have been doing for the last 4 years. I dont like everything that they have done and I hated some parts of it. So take your "your a fan" bullshit somewhere else. Overall the core game design of WOW is by far the best any MMO game has ever offered. And they have been able to add a layer of polish upon that - unlike what many other MMOs have been able to do. Call that Marketing.. or call that showing a tiny bit of respect for the custimors that buy your product...
You people obviously have no clue about building a successful business. I hate to open your eyes to the harsh reality of business, but it's all about the almighty dollar or the bottom line. Blizzard doesn't give a squat about you, just your money. Neither does any other successful big-name company out there and anyone out there that thinks a company is going to put you before making money, is a fool.
You are correct in saying that it is a gameplay decision. It is! Which is part of a greater marketing decision! You don't think that is factored in to the companies decision on how to make more money? All these concepts are financially backed by investors looking to profit and that's the first thing that they look at when deciding whether or not to financially back an idea. Wake up, it's a business and guess what, they're not in business to lose money. Businesses are out to make as much money as they can, so don't kid yourself. Why do you think Blizzard has come up with all these ways to get you to spend more of your hard earned money (which is more marketing genius)? Oh, that's right, it's because they really respect those that are buying their product. Bahahaha!
You people obviously have no clue about building a successful business. I hate to open your eyes to the harsh reality of business, but it's all about the almighty dollar or the bottom line. Blizzard doesn't give a squat about you, just your money. Neither does any other successful big-name company out there and anyone out there that thinks a company is going to put you before making money, is a fool. You are correct in saying that it is a gameplay decision. It is! Which is part of a greater marketing decision! You don't think that is factored in to the companies decision on how to make more money? Wake up, it's a business and guess what, businesses are out to make as much money as they can, so don't kid yourself. Why do you think Blizzard has come up with all these ways to get you to spend more of your hard earned money (which is more marketing genius)? Oh, that's right, it's because they really respect those that are buying their product. Bahahaha!
This is the type of mentality - as true as it might seem - that clouds and discourages the minds of players. I'm not picking on MrcdesOwner per se.
Blizzard may not be the place where the truly groundbreaking MMO arises from; on the other hand, its financial success may allow it to buck the system and create something that they can afford not to be a mega-hit.
If an MMO were to come out like the one I describe, I doubt it would do anywhere near as well as WoW. Instead, I imagine it would slowly eek out an existance for itself, perhaps like EvE.
As much as a business as MMOs are, the creaters, the imaginations behind it, do not come from the business suits. The business suits cannot create anything; for one thing they are always sitting in the driver's seat looking backwards: "What has worked before?" "WoW." "Make it like WoW."
It is going to take creative minds that are not mired in the past (i.e. tradition) with a strong financial backing in order to create something that will truly take us on a virtual journey.
You people obviously have no clue about building a successful business. I hate to open your eyes to the harsh reality of business, but it's all about the almighty dollar or the bottom line. Blizzard doesn't give a squat about you, just your money. Neither does any other successful big-name company out there and anyone out there that thinks a company is going to put you before making money, is a fool. You are correct in saying that it is a gameplay decision. It is! Which is part of a greater marketing decision! You don't think that is factored in to the companies decision on how to make more money? Wake up, it's a business and guess what, businesses are out to make as much money as they can, so don't kid yourself. Why do you think Blizzard has come up with all these ways to get you to spend more of your hard earned money (which is more marketing genius)? Oh, that's right, it's because they really respect those that are buying their product. Bahahaha!
This is the type of mentality - as true as it might seem - that clouds and discourages the minds of players. I'm not picking on MrcdesOwner per se.
Blizzard may not be the place where the truly groundbreaking MMO arises from; on the other hand, its financial success may allow it to buck the system and create something that they can afford not to be a mega-hit.
If an MMO were to come out like the one I describe, I doubt it would do anywhere near as well as WoW. Instead, I imagine it would slowly eek out an existance for itself, perhaps like EvE.
As much as a business as MMOs are, the creaters, the imaginations behind it, do not come from the business suits. The business suits cannot create anything; for one thing they are always sitting in the driver's seat looking backwards: "What has worked before?" "WoW." "Make it like WoW."
It is going to take creative minds that are not mired in the past (i.e. tradition) with a strong financial backing in order to create something that will truly take us on a virtual journey.
I can't wait....
I'm not trying to cloud and discourage the minds of players, quite the contrary and I'm sorry if I've come across as a jerk, but I'm trying to clear your minds to the reality of the world we live in.
It's a dollars and cents thing. Take McDonald's for example, most people would agree that their burgers are nowhere near the best tasting burger (I believe there has even been polls showing this). Yet, McDonald's sells more burgers every year (by a huge margin), than anyone else. Now, why is it that their burgers grossly outsells better tasting burgers? The reason for this is due to marketing. Don't agree with me, fine, ask any successful business owner or marketing rep. Nike is another example, they had the vision to be the first to market using famous athletes, namely Michael Jordan. Their success is not derived because they sell the best shoe, but because they were the best at marketing their shoe. I can guarantee that their are other products out there that are easily better than the leading selling product in it's respective class or category. Products that are absolutely amazing, only you've never heard of them! As McDonald's has proven, mediocre products can become huge successes with great marketing, but great products will never become huge successes with mediocre marketing.
Now I never said WoW was a bad game people, I've had two WoW accounts running since shortly after the game first launched. But, my whole point is that WoW's success is derived from a company that knows how to sell. You think it's by accident that Blizzard artificially enhances the number of subs? It is a marketing strategy to increase subs. They want you to feel like, 'gee 5 million subscribers can't be wrong, I wonder what I'm missing'. Blizzard was also the first to really push their product on websites and in TV ads. How many ads for an online game had you seen on TV and other websites before WoW? Zero! I'm sure that in creating WoW, the developers ran into numerous forks in the road; do we take road A or road B. I'm sure that if it came down to one road leading to what they wanted to do from a developers standpoint and the other being better from a marketing standpoint, they took the latter. That's the brilliance behind a company like Blizzard as opposed to say Mythic or Funcom.
I bet if you polled the execs at Blizzard as to the driving force behind their success, they would attribute it to knowing how to sell their product, not the product itself. Just like McDonald's, just like Nike.
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach. However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet. By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years. Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
No worries, I wouldn't write the articles if I thought everyone would agree with me. That would be awfully boring!
A few notes though. Ask a serious art historian and they usually won't name that "perfector" as their favorite. What that person did, the guy who "perfected the style" is market his stuff, get in front of the most people or convince the Pope to pay for the most of it.
So, regardless of what you think of WoW and its quality, it is the definitive MMO of this generation and there is no way around it. It is and given the lead it has on every other game ever made in this genre, it will be remembered as such.
Your note about popularity is a peculiarity I've noticed as well, but honestly, I think the explanation is easier than you might imagine. MMO fans play or are aware of WoW. WoW fans do not necessarily even know there are other MMOs.
Honestly, based solely on subscriptions, WoW should be far and away the biggest traffic generator on this site. It isn't. By contrast, some sites you'd glance at and call a "WoW fansite" get more traffic than this site does, and we're not exactly small.
They're two separate communities that no one has fully integrated into each other yet. I've spoken to more people than I can remember who ask what I do and when I say I work for "MMORPG.com" they cannot even get the acronym right. If I say "it's a kind of game, like WoW," they know exactly what I mean.
So, arguments of quality totally set aside... WoW is the definitive game in this genre. Arguing otherwise is a bit nieve.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach. However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet. By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years. Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
No worries, I wouldn't write the articles if I thought everyone would agree with me. That would be awfully boring!
A few notes though. Ask a serious art historian and they usually won't name that "perfector" as their favorite. What that person did, the guy who "perfected the style" is market his stuff, get in front of the most people or convince the Pope to pay for the most of it.
So, regardless of what you think of WoW and its quality, it is the definitive MMO of this generation and there is no way around it. It is and given the lead it has on every other game ever made in this genre, it will be remembered as such.
Your note about popularity is a peculiarity I've noticed as well, but honestly, I think the explanation is easier than you might imagine. MMO fans play or are aware of WoW. WoW fans do not necessarily even know there are other MMOs.
Honestly, based solely on subscriptions, WoW should be far and away the biggest traffic generator on this site. It isn't. By contrast, some sites you'd glance at and call a "WoW fansite" get more traffic than this site does, and we're not exactly small.
They're two separate communities that no one has fully integrated into each other yet. I've spoken to more people than I can remember who ask what I do and when I say I work for "MMORPG.com" they cannot even get the acronym right. If I say "it's a kind of game, like WoW," they know exactly what I mean.
So, arguments of quality totally set aside... WoW is the definitive game in this genre. Arguing otherwise is a bit nieve.
Dana, I in no way would argue that WoW isn't the definitive game in this genre. I am arguing exactly that WoW IS the definitive game. My disagreement with you is in regards to how it got there. You stated that they "perfected the style". WoW as game or style is far from perfect. I say that they have perfected the marketing for that style. And from reading the second paragraph of your reply you agree with me as you just reiterated what I'm getting at! You just stated above in your second paragraph:
"A few notes though. Ask a serious art historian and they usually won't name that "perfector" as their favorite. What that person did, the guy who "perfected the style" is market his stuff, get in front of the most people or convince the Pope to pay for the most of it."
That is what I'm saying exactly! What Blizzard did was market their game, get in front of the most people and do the best job convincing those people to pay for it.
Oh and in addition, your second to last paragraph states...
"They're two separate communities that no one has fully integrated into each other yet. I've spoken to more people than I can remember who ask what I do and when I say I work for "MMORPG.com" they cannot even get the acronym right. If I say "it's a kind of game, like WoW," they know exactly what I mean."
...which further proves what I've been saying all along (read my McDonald's analogy).
(Edit) On second glance your whole reply just proves what I've been saying.
Dana, I in no way would argue that WoW isn't the definitive game in this genre. I am arguing exactly that WoW IS the definitive game. My disagreement with you is in regards to how it got there. You stated that they "perfected the style". WoW as game or style is far from perfect. I say that they have perfected the marketing for that style. And from reading the second paragraph of your reply you agree with me as you just reiterated what I'm getting at! You just stated above in your second paragraph: "A few notes though. Ask a serious art historian and they usually won't name that "perfector" as their favorite. What that person did, the guy who "perfected the style" is market his stuff, get in front of the most people or convince the Pope to pay for the most of it."
That is what I'm saying exactly! What Blizzard did was market their game, get in front of the most people and do the best job convincing those people to pay for it. Oh and in addition, your second to last paragraph states... "They're two separate communities that no one has fully integrated into each other yet. I've spoken to more people than I can remember who ask what I do and when I say I work for "MMORPG.com" they cannot even get the acronym right. If I say "it's a kind of game, like WoW," they know exactly what I mean." ...which further proves what I've been saying all along (read my McDonald's analogy).
Right, but my point is... it doesn't matter how they took that mantle. They took it.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
The author talks about the mistakes made by the Warhammer developers and yet can't figure out that he is taking a portion of the MMO industry and attempting to pawn it off as representative of the entire Industry.
Dana, you need to get out more. Your complaint is directed at the EQ / Wow clones, which, while making up a good portion of the industry do not represent the entirety of it.
There are very successful games that avoid your problem entirely. The first one that comes to mind is Eve. UO is another that did not have your problem. There are others more recent in this category and some that will be releasing in the next year or so.
As to Star Wars, the Old Republic, they are also stuck in the character class and level rut. Whether they can overcome this huge handicap we will just have to wait and see.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I am still reading the whole post but i cant let that statement go un opposed.
WOW can hardly be blamed for levels being the easy way out for developers.
levels are simply left over form the days of Table top RPGs and have stuck around due to there usefulness in designing content and balance.
I can't say I like leveling but it is hardly and invention of WOW and more that WOW is perpetuating its ussgae.
Now I will continue to read the other 78 comments.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
AC1 was fantasic It more than any gmae made me not care about level and there was no end game. There was a monthly story arc that progresses that gave people the feel of a static world.
Whole towns were razed to the ground for the sake of story.
Other games are unchanging boring worlds by comparison to AC 1
AC was fantastic.
...Very few actually do that and the three I mentioned are UO, SWG preNGE and EvE got it right....98% of the others got it wrong.
I'd add Asheron's Call 1 to that list. Turbine didn't have the notoriety that Sony did back then which is in part why so many people went to EQ over AC. People go with what they are familiar with, for good or bad. AC1 defintely deserves more face time and recognition than what mainstream gaming media gives.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
i pay City of Heroes (and champions online) and really dont measure myself by my level but by what im doing, I'm a friking superhero!
Now i'm off to punch Space Fachists in the face.
Just a couple things I wanted to mention about this, 1st of all, no one is saying that EVERY mmo should become like EVE or Fable, but it gets old that there are so few that aren't what everyone has begun calling a "WoW clone". 2nd, it won't change people being excited about killing content, in fact it makes them more excited about it because they wont have already killed Forest Brown Bear 100 times, and still have 100 more to go before their quest is done and they can get a new pair of boots and a few exp points. Even at end game in WoW, what is there to do but farm dungeons, farm arena points, farm honor points, farm crafting/AH items, or farm dailies? And don't go saying that I just haven't played WoW enough, I played it from the day it came out to just a few months ago. It isn't a bad game like many people say, it's a well polished, fun game, it would just be nice to see some mmos that are different enough that when I play them I don't get the feeling that I'm playing WoW all over again. Not to mention not everyone enjoys just killing one mob after another, just to have them spawn again a few minutes later so that we can kill them again.
I'm really hoping that one of the new mmos coming out can break this safetly harness chaining mmos to levels and grind. I'm very hopeful for Global Agenda, it has a solid formula that has worked for many single player games, and hopefully they can successfully implement it into an mmo. Also, I've been keeping track of Mortal Online for some time now. It's skills based system looks like it will have some fun unlockable content based on your combination of skills, and it has some other excellent ideas. My main worry with MO is that they will skimp on the content and just become another Darkfail. I haven't taken a look at the KotOR mmo, but from the little I've seen it also has some good potential to break the mmo genre away from the "WoW clone" safety harness.
I think personally that current day MMOG's are their own enemy.
They are mainstream, but the mainstream way of thinking are killing MMOG's that try and do things just a little differently. Gaining equipment, levels and such things have become too easy. Everyone has access to everything, which just makes the achivement bland and sour. MMOG's are pacing themselves very very hard and the studioes behind the games have problems keeping up with that pace, which causes people to abandon the game.
Everything feels more or less the same, and yes I blame you World of Warcraft
Yeah, but couldn't a MMORPG be built that had the same advancement feel as that single player RPG? If you get to that city, you've made it to a certain level. Like, without ports, someone who gets to Shatterath has to be at least 58, to make a WoW analogy?
I think in a way FFXI accomplishes this. Even though leveling *is* important in XI.. reaching or unlocking certain areas is definitely a measure of progress.
Getting to Jeuno for the first time, for example. Most people go there at level 20.. but getting level 20 isn't the accomplishment itself. Getting to Jeuno means you can now get your chocobo license, which takes traveling to a whole new level (can travel farther in less time, no aggro while riding, etc.).. Jeuno also happens to be the access point to 3 other areas... Qufim Island, and then 2 others, including either Rolanberry Fields, Batallia Downs or Sauromugue Champaign - depending on which direction you came from).
After that, you have getting Sky access to look forward to, which is another achievement that unlocks a whole new area of gameplay. Then there's Tavnazian Archipelago, another new region with lots of content. Beyond that, there's "Sea"... and so on. You tell someone "I finally got access to Sea!" and they know exactly what that means, what you had to accomplish to get there, and why it's significant.
In a way, when I think about it, FFXI is full of those sorts of mini-milestones to reach... both those set by the game for everyone, and those set by players for themselves. Job and level are discussed, but when I think about it, people really tend to speak in terms of specific accomplishments in FFXI. Levels tend to be discussed only in what they unlock for the player and, so, certain levels are emphasized... and again, people understand why when you tell them. As one example, if you tell them you hit level 40 Black Mage, they're likely going to know the significance of that... You learn Warp II - a very useful spell, indeed... As one other, getting to level 30 on Thief is significant because you get access to Trick Attack at that level... an ability that when combined with "Sneak Attack", makes for very powerful attacks, but also very useful for placing aggro where it's wanted/needed in a fight, etc.
Another example is specific battles... Tell someone you defeated Alexander, and - so long as they know who that is - they're going to understand the accomplishment in that and, of course, what it means about your progress in the game.
The examples go on and on...
But in all, I agree with Dana's article. Many MMOs and, by extension, gamers have reduced MMOs down to filling up xp bars in the most "mathematically efficient" way... and any content that doesn't contribute to that equation is typically ignored.
The trouble is, developers have also gotten lazy to where the majority of what they call "Quests" are little more than fetch-and-kill routines. A player isn't given the opportunity to become engrossed in the content along the way, because there's nothing engrossing about collecting 50 wolf fangs, or killing 30 wild boars. In those cases, the quests merely become part of the equation in the players' race to level cap.
In a way, it kinda raises a very "chicken or egg" type question...
Did the players put most focus on leveling as a result of a lack of interesting content from the developers?
Or...
Did the developers reduce the content to mere fetch-and-kill routines due to players reducing quests down to little more than another way to fill up their xp bar, not bothering to read or become at all engaged in the story behind it?
Either way... it's a cyclical pattern, I think... one side continuously feeds the other, all in the name of "faster leveling".
I've brought this up in another thread, but I think it bears repeating here...
Why should a developer expend the time and money to create an elaborate storyline with interesting challenges requiring thought or strategy when players aren't going to read the story, and will merely go to some online guide to walk through it as fast as possible anyway so they can collect their reward and move on to the next one?
I think it could also be looked at in terms of how so many MMO players now believe reaching end-game is the only meaningful goal in the game. So, in that light, getting there as fast as possible is key, and what level they are is their measure of progress.
So perhaps if some other developers can find a way to take the focus off "end-game only", demote leveling to a "means to an end", rather than an end in itself and get players interested in the entire game from level 1 again, we'll see a change. But, as was said.. players have been "programmed" to approach MMOs in a specific way, and it's not going to be easy to change that.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Let me start by saying great article and so far a pretty good read through the replies.
Even though it's been a good read, the thread should've ended with Sylvene's post about "measurables". Measurables are essentially the heart of any rpg and is what separates it from your basic adventure game or fps. Pretty much all games today have some kind of story attatched to them. What makes an rpg an rpg is character progression through some kind of measurable. We can remove levels altogether, but they'll only be replaced by some new concept as a way to gauge progress. If they're not replaced, then your rpg just became an fps or platformer or action-adventure.
Of course all of this is my own opinion but this is what I think has happened to mmorpgs to bring them to the state they're in.
1. Lack of Challenge. There's alot ot be said for the concept of risk vs reward. Not only does something that challenges you get your blood flowing, but if the reward is there, that true feeling of accomplishment is all the driving force needed in an rpg. In my opinion, mmorpgs have become too trivial. Of course, level grinding is boring, there's absolutely no challenge to it. You walk out the gate, see a creature that is within an appropriate level range and its icon indicates that it is solable so you attack it and kill it with ease. Where's the fun in that? One of the worst things that happened to me in gaming was going from a game that only gave general indication of a mobs difficulty to one that flat out told me I could beat X mob everytime.
2. Community. So let's not beat around the bush. We pay monthly fees for the ability to play online with other players and feel like we're part of something wonderful, unique, and larger than what we experience in everyday "real" life. (Well, I'm sure most of us do, anyway. There are the few that pay just for the chance to annoy the others.) So when in the heck did it become the norm to solo the majority of content? More importantly, WHY? Well, it's probably because our goals shifted from having fun in the virtual word we're sharing with these other people to racing to the "measurable" cap that is supposed to somehow make us feel superior to those who haven't got there yet. People don't want to "waste time" exploring, traveling, or just enjoying the scenery. They want instant access to EXP and the more the better. Again bringing around the assumption that levels are merely obstacles.
Well, what have we gained from that phase shift? A really frustrated and pissed off community that is less friendly and rarely in the mood to socialize. General chats filled with mindless arguments and regurgitated memes. Endless quest grinding where people would just as soon be inconsiderate to those around them than waste precious seconds that could be used for grinding other quests.
Again, in my opinion, I think what we've seen recently is the blur of once distinct lines of gaming genres. Every mmo is now expected to appeal to the role players, the PVPers, the twitch gamers, the min-maxers, the tradeskillers, the platformers, the FPSers, etc. But in all the new tricks and latest advances, the mmorpg lost its true essence. The MMO part and the RPG part.
Note: I'm at the office and was interrupted and kinda lost my train of thought there. But all in all, I think my opinion was expressed.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach.
However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet.
By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years.
Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Great analogy. Spot on.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach.
However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet.
By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years.
Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
Your fail comment, failed.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach.
However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet.
By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years.
Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
Marketing will not sell bad SUB based game... sorry m8.
WoW has proofed that "quality" in the right departments pays off. It just happens that those departments also support millions of ppl playing the game on low spec PCs.
Let me make pretty clear example here. You can go into a tower or an Inn in WOW and they all have the exsact same basic look. Still - It somehow didn't bother me. Cause what I was doing in there mattered more than what I was looking at.
Now... I have played quite a few MMOs (WAR - AOC just for example) that have much more variety in graphics and looks when it comes to these kinda places. But ... somehow I end up logging out of those games bored to death doing the same thing over and over and over again - even when the places LOOK diffrent. Not to mention that the look is causing alot of loading screens that has nothing to do with why Im going to these places... Cause - doing quests has nothing to do with loading screens... Dont take me wrong tho - I love RPG games that have alot of "diffrent" looking places - like NWN for example. It actually adds alot do these kinda games while it adds ONLY loading screens to the MMOs (for me that is.
I find WAR to be pretty much the exact problem with MMOs atm. It all sounds good - even looks ok. But underneath are so many basic flaws that push ppl away from the game. It sinks in over time and since WAR is not really fixing the real issues - very few ppl will give the game a second chance.
I want to end on a simple question that might open some eyes. Why does a PVP content need to reward ppl with other than winning ? Why do ppl need more - Like items or lvls for example ? If you want to show your quality in PVP then you should beat ppl on your skills - not on the gear you wear. ....
This is the best article I have read here in a month. Literally hits the nail on the head perfectly.
Khaunshar "Guild Wars actually does its PvE Progression primarily through storyline in the Expansions Factions and Nightfall."
Thank you, I was wondering if someone was going to mention Guild Wars. I thought of GW when I read the article and some of the descriptions that would make a mmo better.
steuss "it will be hard to make games where 'levels' are not the focus"
I don't think it would be that hard actually. Just make a lower lvl cap as Guild Wars did and make the focus on the actual content in the game such as the "instances" that can be played with a one person party that has henchmen or a group of multiple players. GW also focuses on skills more than levels. You earn skills or buy them depending on your preference/progress in the game. I'm sure some developers out there can think of some way to take the boredom out of constantly hacking on some thing and make a game enjoyable. I use GW as example because it is the only MMO that I can think of, that I play, that doesn't focus on level but instead skills, player or activated skill. Oh and I didn't like the level capping at 20 at first and gripped about having to only choose 8 skills or so out of the many I earned. I got use to it though. I actually enjoy unlocking the different areas through out the game.
As for War, I played beta...hated it, played after it was released...hated it but I've taken an interest in it again since it is different than the grind fest free to play games I'm use to. That must be why I fluctuate between at least 4 different game atm. I get bored of one type of play style and play a different one then come back later when I tire of that one.
I didn't get that Dana was saying there weren't any (of course I may be wrong) but instead that it seems the larger developer houses who are most capable of making a game at a fairly high quality (I know, but don't try to laugh too hard at that) seem to have horse blinders on and continue to stay in that rut. They then throw around words like "next gen" and innovative when they only are changing from red paint to blue.
"Next gen" or "innovative" would be, in my opinion and I doubt I'm the only one, developing a new basic mechanics systems or trying an update of systems like those in UO or AC. Most games out of these houses now have the EQ basic system and only vary up the "sprinkles" on that vanilla ice cream.
Yeah, basically right. The vast majority do what I described, but yes there are examples of cases where games tried a different approach.
However, for me, there is no right answer. If every MMO designer said "crap, Dana's right, let's start over" simultaneously, we'd have a sea of problems too. We need WoW-like games, we need UO-like games and we need games no one has even thought of yet.
By and large, everyone is on the WoW train these days. I played a lot of UO, but continuing to cite a decade old example is a bit much. Games that don't fit the class/level mold are coming out once every 3-4 years.
Think of it this way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the EQ/WoW style of game. It's a great kind of game that a lot of people enjoy. However, to me, I look at it like "periods" in art. Usually people remember the first (EQ) that kicked off a new period in painting or sculpting... and the "last," who is rarely the actual last, but the last one to make a huge mark in that style. In this case, WoW. Now that we have our bookends and someone has pioneered a style of MMO and someone else has perfected it... it's time for someone to branch out and invent a new style if they want to be mega successful.
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
Marketing will not sell bad SUB based game... sorry m8.
WoW has proofed that "quality" in the right departments pays off. It just happens that those departments also support millions of ppl playing the game on low spec PCs.
Let me make pretty clear example here. You can go into a tower or an Inn in WOW and they all have the exsact same basic look. Still - It somehow didn't bother me. Cause what I was doing in there mattered more than what I was looking at.
Now... I have played quite a few MMOs (WAR - AOC just for example) that have much more variety in graphics and looks when it comes to these kinda places. But ... somehow I end up logging out of those games bored to death doing the same thing over and over and over again - even when the places LOOK diffrent. Not to mention that the look is causing alot of loading screens that has nothing to do with why Im going to these places... Cause - doing quests has nothing to do with loading screens... Dont take me wrong tho - I love RPG games that have alot of "diffrent" looking places - like NWN for example. It actually adds alot do these kinda games while it adds ONLY loading screens to the MMOs (for me that is.
I find WAR to be pretty much the exact problem with MMOs atm. It all sounds good - even looks ok. But underneath are so many basic flaws that push ppl away from the game. It sinks in over time and since WAR is not really fixing the real issues - very few ppl will give the game a second chance.
I want to end on a simple question that might open some eyes. Why does a PVP content need to reward ppl with other than winning ? Why do ppl need more - Like items or lvls for example ? If you want to show your quality in PVP then you should beat ppl on your skills - not on the gear you wear. ....
Umm, where in my reply did I ever say WoW was a "bad SUB based game", M8? I was merely making a point regarding Dana's comment in the previous post that WoW, "perfected the style".
You WoWheads are all alike, so quick to defend your game, that you often don't even have a clue as to the point someone else is trying to make. Unbelievable, no wonder it is so often referred to as World of Warcrack.
Oh, and last but not least, I will quote the following from you:
"WoW has proofed that "quality" in the right departments pays off. It just happens that those departments also support millions of ppl playing the game on low spec PCs."
Hate to open your eyes Bub, but that thing there, that you described above...Umm, THAT'S MARKETING! Designing the game so that it can play on just about any PC, when there are already games that clearly set the graphics bar higher is a marketing decision. Clearly implemented so that the company's product will appeal to more people and therefore sell to a wider audience...MARKETING!
Thanks for helping me prove my point though.
Your fail comment, failed.
I enjoyed reading this article and some of the responses as well.
I love the MMO genre and prefer it over the RPG single-player experience.
I started playing MMOs in 2002, starting with EQ, so I'm not an expert
Seeing a game that embraces the actual medium of the MMO is what I'm waiting for.
In no particular order:
1) MMOs imho need to move away from the D&D/Fantasy aspects of game play and mechanics. Look towards the future - space travel, different solar systems, life forms. Embrace the virtual world for what it is - a virtual space where the environment is written in code. "Magic" can still be a part of this in some areas of this MMO universe.
2) The obvious fact that there are players interacting and interconnected via the computer world needs to be exploited in the story-line plot. What I'm trying to get at is something like the "Otherworld" book series or even "The Matrix".
3) Static roles that characters play need to be done away with (tank, healer, etc.) As a computer world, we should be able to form and shape our characters to what our particular group needs at the moment. (EVE does something like this in that you can train any skill that you have purchased.)
4) Travel should not be a commodity held tightly by the developers. This is a computer world - use your imagination! Let travel be ingenious, less cumbersome, less of a chore.
5) Artificial hurdles placed there because of dogma, tradition, or lack of imagination, should be torn down and reshaped from the ground up. This is a very general statement purposefully. I would like every aspect of the MMO to be looked at and challenged.
6) Crafting of items should not be an afterthought to the game. Crafting should be a puzzle but not puzzling. It should be rewarding and difficult, but not tedious.
7) The economy of the game needs to be consistent and harsh. If players aren't playing and crafting, item availability should reflect that.
These are just some of my thoughts, hastily put together, but brewing in my mind. If I won the Powerball, making an MMO would be one of the things I would undertake.
There is so much potential within the MMO but because of business, we are being dealt the same old same old. I'm not sure that using a known vehicle for the MMO (Star Wars, The Matrix, Song of Fire and Ice) is the best way to go - people will already have preconceived notions about what the world is like and so deviation would not be tolerated. In that sense, EVE is an undertaking that deserves recognition.
I hope I get to see an MMO break through the boundaries and really push the limit of our expectations....
Very well said. I couldn't agree more with the first point that you made regarding moving away from D&D/Fantasy genre. I'm looking forward to Star Trek Online, the next good super hero MMO, and (although it's Sciene Fiction/Fantasy) Swtor, for that very reason.
I also think you have a very valid point with the third item on your list. I've often wondered why more games haven't taken this approach, but instead continue to be so cookie-cutter.
Your fail comment, failed.
Maketing disission or gameplay disission? Do ppl like to play fast pased open world, few loading screen games ? It seems so... Thats game design tho - one that makes WOW stand out from games like EQ.
And if WOW is nothing but marketing... then how bad are the other MMOs? Im sorry but releasing a good solid game with clear vision focused on gameplay and coop (like orginally in WOW) is hopefully what every MMO developer is aiming for. To me it has nothing to do with marketing tho... it has to do with respecting the custimors that buy the product. And this is exactly where games like WAR and AOC have totally failed on release.
BTW - Im not a WOW fan and don't play it anymore. But I respect 100% what Blizzard have been doing for the last 4 years. I dont like everything that they have done and I hated some parts of it. So take your "your a fan" bullshit somewhere else. Overall the core game design of WOW is by far the best any MMO game has ever offered. And they have been able to add a layer of polish upon that - unlike what many other MMOs have been able to do. Call that Marketing.. or call that showing a tiny bit of respect for the custimors that buy your product...
Maketing disission or gameplay disission? Do ppl like to play fast pased open world, few loading screen games ? It seems so... Thats game design tho - one that makes WOW stand out from games like EQ.
And if WOW is nothing but marketing... then how bad are the other MMOs? Im sorry but releasing a good solid game with clear vision focused on gameplay and coop (like orginally in WOW) is hopefully what every MMO developer is aiming for. To me it has nothing to do with marketing tho... it has to do with respecting the custimors that buy the product. And this is exactly where games like WAR and AOC have totally failed on release.
BTW - Im not a WOW fan and don't play it anymore. But I respect 100% what Blizzard have been doing for the last 4 years. I dont like everything that they have done and I hated some parts of it. So take your "your a fan" bullshit somewhere else. Overall the core game design of WOW is by far the best any MMO game has ever offered. And they have been able to add a layer of polish upon that - unlike what many other MMOs have been able to do. Call that Marketing.. or call that showing a tiny bit of respect for the custimors that buy your product...
You people obviously have no clue about building a successful business. I hate to open your eyes to the harsh reality of business, but it's all about the almighty dollar or the bottom line. Blizzard doesn't give a squat about you, just your money. Neither does any other successful big-name company out there and anyone out there that thinks a company is going to put you before making money, is a fool.
You are correct in saying that it is a gameplay decision. It is! Which is part of a greater marketing decision! You don't think that is factored in to the companies decision on how to make more money? All these concepts are financially backed by investors looking to profit and that's the first thing that they look at when deciding whether or not to financially back an idea. Wake up, it's a business and guess what, they're not in business to lose money. Businesses are out to make as much money as they can, so don't kid yourself. Why do you think Blizzard has come up with all these ways to get you to spend more of your hard earned money (which is more marketing genius)? Oh, that's right, it's because they really respect those that are buying their product. Bahahaha!
Your fail comment, failed.
This is the type of mentality - as true as it might seem - that clouds and discourages the minds of players. I'm not picking on MrcdesOwner per se.
Blizzard may not be the place where the truly groundbreaking MMO arises from; on the other hand, its financial success may allow it to buck the system and create something that they can afford not to be a mega-hit.
If an MMO were to come out like the one I describe, I doubt it would do anywhere near as well as WoW. Instead, I imagine it would slowly eek out an existance for itself, perhaps like EvE.
As much as a business as MMOs are, the creaters, the imaginations behind it, do not come from the business suits. The business suits cannot create anything; for one thing they are always sitting in the driver's seat looking backwards: "What has worked before?" "WoW." "Make it like WoW."
It is going to take creative minds that are not mired in the past (i.e. tradition) with a strong financial backing in order to create something that will truly take us on a virtual journey.
I can't wait....
This is the type of mentality - as true as it might seem - that clouds and discourages the minds of players. I'm not picking on MrcdesOwner per se.
Blizzard may not be the place where the truly groundbreaking MMO arises from; on the other hand, its financial success may allow it to buck the system and create something that they can afford not to be a mega-hit.
If an MMO were to come out like the one I describe, I doubt it would do anywhere near as well as WoW. Instead, I imagine it would slowly eek out an existance for itself, perhaps like EvE.
As much as a business as MMOs are, the creaters, the imaginations behind it, do not come from the business suits. The business suits cannot create anything; for one thing they are always sitting in the driver's seat looking backwards: "What has worked before?" "WoW." "Make it like WoW."
It is going to take creative minds that are not mired in the past (i.e. tradition) with a strong financial backing in order to create something that will truly take us on a virtual journey.
I can't wait....
I'm not trying to cloud and discourage the minds of players, quite the contrary and I'm sorry if I've come across as a jerk, but I'm trying to clear your minds to the reality of the world we live in.
It's a dollars and cents thing. Take McDonald's for example, most people would agree that their burgers are nowhere near the best tasting burger (I believe there has even been polls showing this). Yet, McDonald's sells more burgers every year (by a huge margin), than anyone else. Now, why is it that their burgers grossly outsells better tasting burgers? The reason for this is due to marketing. Don't agree with me, fine, ask any successful business owner or marketing rep. Nike is another example, they had the vision to be the first to market using famous athletes, namely Michael Jordan. Their success is not derived because they sell the best shoe, but because they were the best at marketing their shoe. I can guarantee that their are other products out there that are easily better than the leading selling product in it's respective class or category. Products that are absolutely amazing, only you've never heard of them! As McDonald's has proven, mediocre products can become huge successes with great marketing, but great products will never become huge successes with mediocre marketing.
Now I never said WoW was a bad game people, I've had two WoW accounts running since shortly after the game first launched. But, my whole point is that WoW's success is derived from a company that knows how to sell. You think it's by accident that Blizzard artificially enhances the number of subs? It is a marketing strategy to increase subs. They want you to feel like, 'gee 5 million subscribers can't be wrong, I wonder what I'm missing'. Blizzard was also the first to really push their product on websites and in TV ads. How many ads for an online game had you seen on TV and other websites before WoW? Zero! I'm sure that in creating WoW, the developers ran into numerous forks in the road; do we take road A or road B. I'm sure that if it came down to one road leading to what they wanted to do from a developers standpoint and the other being better from a marketing standpoint, they took the latter. That's the brilliance behind a company like Blizzard as opposed to say Mythic or Funcom.
I bet if you polled the execs at Blizzard as to the driving force behind their success, they would attribute it to knowing how to sell their product, not the product itself. Just like McDonald's, just like Nike.
Your fail comment, failed.
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
No worries, I wouldn't write the articles if I thought everyone would agree with me. That would be awfully boring!
A few notes though. Ask a serious art historian and they usually won't name that "perfector" as their favorite. What that person did, the guy who "perfected the style" is market his stuff, get in front of the most people or convince the Pope to pay for the most of it.
So, regardless of what you think of WoW and its quality, it is the definitive MMO of this generation and there is no way around it. It is and given the lead it has on every other game ever made in this genre, it will be remembered as such.
Your note about popularity is a peculiarity I've noticed as well, but honestly, I think the explanation is easier than you might imagine. MMO fans play or are aware of WoW. WoW fans do not necessarily even know there are other MMOs.
Honestly, based solely on subscriptions, WoW should be far and away the biggest traffic generator on this site. It isn't. By contrast, some sites you'd glance at and call a "WoW fansite" get more traffic than this site does, and we're not exactly small.
They're two separate communities that no one has fully integrated into each other yet. I've spoken to more people than I can remember who ask what I do and when I say I work for "MMORPG.com" they cannot even get the acronym right. If I say "it's a kind of game, like WoW," they know exactly what I mean.
So, arguments of quality totally set aside... WoW is the definitive game in this genre. Arguing otherwise is a bit nieve.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Dana, I have to disagree with you once more. Let's be clear here, WoW didn't perfect anything aside from how to market it's game. To use your analogy regarding periods in art. In WoW's case, it's not the painting or the style, but rather the marketing of that painting or style that is the measure for WoW's success. Just because everyone was told to go see painting A at exhibit X while painting B sits in a little known gallery somewhere else, doesn't mean that painting A has perfected the style.
If you polled the majority of people, or glimpsed user ratings for the majority of gaming sites, INCLUDING THIS ONE, you'll notice a trend; Wow isn't listed within the top tier of games, even in it's own genre. Most people who I've run into refer to some other game that they've played as being a much more enjoyable experience. In addition, I've met numerous people who would rather be playing something else, but are on the "WoW train" because all of their friends are. Furthermore the majority of those "friends" they are playing WoW with haven't even tried other MMO's and therefore don't have a clue as to what they may or may not be missing in another game.
Finally, while the marketing for WoW has greatly expanded thus increasing the number of players to what we see now, most of the original WoW players or die hard MMOers would likely agree that WoW, as a "picture" or "style", has taken a significant turn for the worse. If you took the brains behind WoW's marketing genius out of the equation would we even be having this discussion?
Just because McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any other, it by no means, is any indication that they have perfected the style. I'd still much rather have a burger from my local steakhouse.
No worries, I wouldn't write the articles if I thought everyone would agree with me. That would be awfully boring!
A few notes though. Ask a serious art historian and they usually won't name that "perfector" as their favorite. What that person did, the guy who "perfected the style" is market his stuff, get in front of the most people or convince the Pope to pay for the most of it.
So, regardless of what you think of WoW and its quality, it is the definitive MMO of this generation and there is no way around it. It is and given the lead it has on every other game ever made in this genre, it will be remembered as such.
Your note about popularity is a peculiarity I've noticed as well, but honestly, I think the explanation is easier than you might imagine. MMO fans play or are aware of WoW. WoW fans do not necessarily even know there are other MMOs.
Honestly, based solely on subscriptions, WoW should be far and away the biggest traffic generator on this site. It isn't. By contrast, some sites you'd glance at and call a "WoW fansite" get more traffic than this site does, and we're not exactly small.
They're two separate communities that no one has fully integrated into each other yet. I've spoken to more people than I can remember who ask what I do and when I say I work for "MMORPG.com" they cannot even get the acronym right. If I say "it's a kind of game, like WoW," they know exactly what I mean.
So, arguments of quality totally set aside... WoW is the definitive game in this genre. Arguing otherwise is a bit nieve.
Dana, I in no way would argue that WoW isn't the definitive game in this genre. I am arguing exactly that WoW IS the definitive game. My disagreement with you is in regards to how it got there. You stated that they "perfected the style". WoW as game or style is far from perfect. I say that they have perfected the marketing for that style. And from reading the second paragraph of your reply you agree with me as you just reiterated what I'm getting at! You just stated above in your second paragraph:
"A few notes though. Ask a serious art historian and they usually won't name that "perfector" as their favorite. What that person did, the guy who "perfected the style" is market his stuff, get in front of the most people or convince the Pope to pay for the most of it."
That is what I'm saying exactly! What Blizzard did was market their game, get in front of the most people and do the best job convincing those people to pay for it.
Oh and in addition, your second to last paragraph states...
"They're two separate communities that no one has fully integrated into each other yet. I've spoken to more people than I can remember who ask what I do and when I say I work for "MMORPG.com" they cannot even get the acronym right. If I say "it's a kind of game, like WoW," they know exactly what I mean."
...which further proves what I've been saying all along (read my McDonald's analogy).
(Edit) On second glance your whole reply just proves what I've been saying.
Your fail comment, failed.
Right, but my point is... it doesn't matter how they took that mantle. They took it.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios