Originally posted by demalus More MMOs should be about the world instead of about winning / finishing - which is the opposite of what an MMO should be.
First of all, what does that even mean?
Second, who are you to lecture us about "what an MMO should be" and why should I give a damn?
It sounds to me like there are no MMOs you actually like...
What I meant was pretty clear. If you disagree with it, games like WoW are perfect for you (and most definitely the upcoming COD MMO).
Why should you give a damn? You shouldn't, but this is a forum. It's kind of silly to go to a place of discussion and tell people to stop discussing.
If I had said 5 years ago:
"I want to pay a subscription fee for a single player game, and then play an extremely generic MMO for two weeks." I would have been laughed at.
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Originally posted by demalus It sounds to me like there are no MMOs you actually like...
Frankly, you're right. They're all getting a bit tiresome. The novelty of the genre after ten years of reiteration is wearing pretty thin, particularly given that the whole lot of 'em still pale in comparison to traditional pen 'n paper roleplaying games (at least in my opinion).
But I'll bite; what MMO(s) do you like? Which one(s) do you think would better hold up against the level of scrutiny the naysayers here seem more than eager to throw towards a game that isn't even in alpha testing?
First off its not a game that will be released this year so its too early to complain about lack of content info. As far as I know the current demo has only been shown to a few at E3 and they are not showing it to us yet. The story telling methodology is probably different enough to draw a lot of angst from forum trolls who complain about no difference in MMO game play between games, but will argue aggressively on a new game forum about how it has to be just like older games. That being said the lack of info may be on purpose but I honestly think they are waiting for the rest of the large conventions. Pretty sure they will be at PAX for instance.
I kind of think OP is just hoping to taunt Bioware into giving him a beta slot to prove him wrong LOL.
As far as the story theme goes - all seems well and good. UNTIL the cheat sites get a hold of it. Then every storyline arc, decisions and outcomes will be posted on Allakazam, etc. The walkthroughs will allow players to rifle through to their desired outcome. Then the powerlevelers will post on forums with Age of Conan syndrome. No content! No content! So how can Bioware keep up with this potential problem?
Short answer they can't nor can any other MMO. They can't protect the gamer from themselves. If the gamer doesn't want to run out of content and already know everything about the game they shouldn't read that info or get power leveled. If they do NO game will ever satisfy them for long past the the NDA being lifted. That is not any MMO's fault or any Game company (SP, MP, or MMO) cheaters will cheat. And some people will always want a short cut.
This game will probably be a huge undertaking to keep content fresh. They may have to do good sized content updates every 3 months to try and stay ahead of their players (CoX style).That would mean roughly 4 good sized updates a year to keep players long term. That may be rough for them, but if thay can pull it off it may be good for us. My guess would be they wouldn't release the game till they are well into if not finished with the 1st content update. I hope they make it fairly modular and easy to add content to (again CoX-ish functionality but much more in-depth).
Don't forget it is still very early in the process. Only time will tell. I too am interested in seeing how Bioware will handle their first MMORPG (and the first real MMO-RPG we have seen in a long time.
First off its not a game that will be released this year so its too early to complain about lack of content info. As far as I know the current demo has only been shown to a few at E3 and they are not showing it to us yet. The story telling methodology is probably different enough to draw a lot of angst from forum trolls who complain about no difference in MMO game play between games, but will argue aggressively on a new game forum about how it has to be just like older games. That being said the lack of info may be on purpose but I honestly think they are waiting for the rest of the large conventions. Pretty sure they will be at PAX for instance.
I kind of think OP is just hoping to taunt Bioware into giving him a beta slot to prove him wrong LOL.
If that works i am seriously going to flame Bioware every chance i get ... " SW:TOR is nothing more than SWG:NGE + WOW
It is totally a rehash of every other MMO out there and Story telling is bad for MMO's if i want to see a story i will read a book or go to a movie. OMG OMG this game is Epic FAIL". ..... can i have an invite too please ... *ahem cough cough* I mean... "Bioware if you think anyone will play your game for more then 1 month you are sadly mistaken and i will be more than happy to put you in your place and prove it." No amount of kissing up to me will change my mind even if you sent me 10 CB invites.."
Ok right ahead: I am very serious with this, and I dont intend to provoke you, but this is the result of weeks and months of thinking and following news and info, and I would really be interested in your (thoughtful) critique. Here comes the thesis first: Bioware is either deceiting themselves about what a success SWTOR can be, OR they are deceiving us about the nature of the game.
Now to the analysis. I will try to keep it a brief as possible. I hope I dont create loopholes by shortage, but I may add to it, if some parts are unclear. I.) Bioware, EA and LucasArts always emphasize "story". In fact we have not heard of a single gameplay sphere any detail other than that. There is that suspicious fact we hear NO other "usually expected" detail whatsoever, now for a long time. Which is no argument in itself, yes, just a hint. The central point here is: they always emphasized, that ALL of SWTOR is story driven. ALL is heroic and there is NO usual grind, no "un-heroic" battle like "kill 20 rats". Point 1.
* Seems that the Game has PvE Mode and a PvP Mode - SifiWire
* The interface seems standardised. Hot keys on a UI Bar. - 1UP
* The UI Can be customised!- StarWarsMMO
* There is mention of a Player Driven Economy in the review from Joystiq.
* No grinding - Destructoid review.
* 8 Classes confirmed (During Gamespot Interview)
* They are looking into separate servers for PvP, RP etc as an option. - StarWarsMMO
* They are trying to make TOR available to People with a mix of PC quality Old and New- StarWarsMMO
* PvP, Auction House, Raiding and an Economy all confirmed on video by a Dev: ZAM
* Localised instancing - When getting/handing in a quest you are the only one at NPC - MMOGAMER
Characters: * Characters maybe planet locked for a period based on gameplay mechanics (BH needs to get a Hutts help to get off the planet, Smuggler has no ship (Its been stolen)
* Bounty Hunters as well as ranged can do hand to hand combat plus dirty tricks - SifiWire
* Character customization
* Player Characters have some interesting moves.. Smuggler (knee NPC in nuts and shoot them in the head)
* Mixed Party Quests, If a Smuggler and Jedi group to go do the Smuggler quest line there will be quests for the Jedi to do while helping Smuggler - MMOGAmer
* There is an END to each classes Story with new content to extend each story- MMOGamer
* The more Dark/Light Side you go you gain access to more abilities that lean towards that calling that going the other way denies you. - GameSutra
Combat: * No Auto Attack - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
* Combat is fast paced (Almost Console Speed) - TenTonHammer
* Enemies fall fast and come quick, and the pace of action is consistent. - EuroGamer
* Cooldowns on the skills were very short, and the skills themselves were swift, immediate - EuroGamer
* Special moves seem to require points similar to Rogue in WoW. (If you are not sure what I mean read further in this post, its explained)
* There is mention of the Sith soaking up damage and causing agro. Possible hint to a Tanking class?
* While seeing the Combat in the Flaspoint its seemed very like Battlefront with 10 vs 2 combat - StarWarsMMO Demo
* When engaging NPCs the NPC switched from Ranged to Melee as the Players got closer - StarWarsMMO Demo
Flashpoints/Loot: * Loot seems to be based on Light/Darkside as well as class.
* End Game Content like Raiding is available if players do not want to re roll - MMOGamer
* Looting is the standard Loot types in other MMOs - StarWarsMMO
* Choices in Flashpoints can change the course of the instance. Kill a NPC and 'A' happens.. do not kill and 'B' happens. - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
* Flashpoints can be done solo or grouped.
* Group decisions in Flashpoints (Its mentioned that BW are still working on how to apply LS/DS points depending on outcome).
* PvP loot mentioned as loot in the gamespot Smuggler interview.
* Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
* The Group decisions seem to work like the LOTRO Combo Combat function, you get little time to decide what you want to do. A selection of outcomes appear and you have to decide fast.
* Multiple different outfits per class- TenTonHammer (watch vid) II.) They have hinted every class has its planet. With the map circling around we have 16 planets, that makes 8 class bound planet. So 50% granted solo game. Or at best intra-class co-op. Tho why should you when its "your class story". Not waterproof, but a measure of balance. General:
* The Majority of the Game can be done without Any help from anyone else - StarWarsMMO Demo
* 8 Classes confirmed (During Gamespot Interview)
* They are looking into seperate servers for PvP, RP etc as an option. - StarWarsMMO
* PvP, Auction House, Raiding and an Economy all confirmed on video by a Dev: ZAM
* Localised instancing - When getting/handing in a quest you are the only one at NPC - MMOGAMER
Characters: * Characters maybe planet locked for a period based on gameplay mechanics (BH needs to get a Hutts help to get off the planet, Smuggler has no ship (Its been stolen)
* Bounty Hunters start on Hutta - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
* Bounty Hunters Story Arc is called 'The Great Hunt' - SifiWire
* Smuggler starts on Ord Mantell - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
* Mixed Party Quests, If a Smuggler and Jedi group to go do the Smuggler quest line there will be quests for the Jedi to do while helping Smuggler - MMOGAmer
Combat:
* There is mention of the Sith soaking up damage and causing agro. Possible hint to a Tanking class?
Flashpoints/Loot:
* End Game Content like Raiding is available if players do not want to re roll - MMOGamer
* Flashpoints can be done solo or grouped.
* Group decisions in Flashpoints (Its mentioned that BW are still working on how to apply LS/DS points depending on outcome).
* The Group decisions seem to work like the LOTRO Combo Combat function, you get little time to decide what you want to do. A selection of outcomes appear and you have to decide fast.
III.) We know we have combat companions, and we know Bioware said, the game can be entirely soloed. Fact! Now what is crystal clear to me: the easier quests are, the more soloable, the less grouping happens. Grouping is what happens when people need to group. Now sure the rise of soloing can be seen. But the fact is, most people who can solo will solo. With NPC companion. Now the life-force of any MMO is it's community. Communites form through grouping for a large part. By shared experiences. But from my POV, when everything CAN be soloed, most WILL solo it. Now if you are busy, busy with your story, why share it, when a NPC does it? Communities are formed by and large through the "hunting party experience", when a team overcomes an obstacle a single person could not. The rise of solo-friendlyness has so far seriously damaged the community spirit in MMOs.
General:
* The Majority of the Game can be done without Any help from anyone else - StarWarsMMO Demo
* Localised instancing - When getting/handing in a quest you are the only one at NPC - MMOGAMER
Characters:
* Mixed Party Quests, If a Smuggler and Jedi group to go do the Smuggler quest line there will be quests for the Jedi to do while helping Smuggler - MMOGAmer
Combat:
* There is mention of the Sith soaking up damage and causing agro. Possible hint to a Tanking class?
Flashpoints/Loot:
* End Game Content like Raiding is available if players do not want to re roll - MMOGamer
* Choices in Flashpoints can change the course of the instance. Kill a NPC and 'A' happens.. do not kill and 'B' happens. - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
* Flashpoints can be done solo or grouped.
* Group decisions in Flashpoints (Its mentioned that BW are still working on how to apply LS/DS points depending on outcome).
* The Group decisions seem to work like the LOTRO Combo Combat function, you get little time to decide what you want to do. A selection of outcomes appear and you have to decide fast.
IV.) Now no matter how good your stories are, I just dont see it that a decend number of players stays in a MMO for more than 3-4 months. I just do not see it. Taking the not small playtime per day of the average MMO gamer, I am sure most will be through the story 2 times by then at LEAST. I am sorry if I have to burst your bubble, but a game merely driven by story wont hold people alone a long time. 6 months is the max. time.
General:
* Seems that the Game has PvE Mode and a PvP Mode - SifiWire
* BioWare is currently indicating that it will be unwilling to let players skip or read dialogue scenes - EuroGamer
* There is mention of a Player Driven Economy in the review from Joystiq.
* They are looking into seperate servers for PvP, RP etc as an option. - StarWarsMMO
* They are trying to make TOR available to People with a mix of PC quality Old and New- StarWarsMMO
* PvP, Auction House, Raiding and an Economy all confirmed on video by a Dev: ZAM
Characters: * Characters maybe planet locked for a period based on gameplay mechanics (BH needs to get a Hutts help to get off the planet, Smuggler has no ship (Its been stolen)
* Mixed Party Quests, If a Smuggler and Jedi group to go do the Smuggler quest line there will be quests for the Jedi to do while helping Smuggler - MMOGAmer
* There is an END to each classes Story with new content to extend each story- MMOGamer
Combat:
* Combat is fast paced (Almost Console Speed) - TenTonHammer
* Enemies fall fast and come quick, and the pace of action is consistent. - EuroGamer
* Cooldowns on the skills were very short, and the skills themselves were swift, immediate - EuroGamer
* Combat seems to be more fluid and dynamic (not too sure what they were refering to by maybe queuing moves?)
* There is mention of the Sith soaking up damage and causing agro. Possible hint to a Tanking class?
Flashpoints/Loot:
* End Game Content like Raiding is available if players do not want to re roll - MMOGamer
* Choices in Flashpoints can change the course of the instance. Kill a NPC and 'A' happens.. do not kill and 'B' happens. - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
* Flashpoints can be done solo or grouped.
* Group decisions in Flashpoints (Its mentioned that BW are still working on how to apply LS/DS points depending on outcome).
* PvP loot mentioned as loot in the gamespot Smuggler interview.
* Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
* The Group decisions seem to work like the LOTRO Combo Combat function, you get little time to decide what you want to do. A selection of outcomes appear and you have to decide fast.
V.) The ONLY thing proven to keep gamers a longer time, is repetitive tasks, like it or not. Just going out hunting stuff. (Not to speak of the fact that many feel "mindless grinding" as something relaxing, actually!) You just would have to create 100+ planets with story to equal the play-time amount a MMO like WOW or EQ2 or GW can muster by grind. Grind, meaning "not heroic, simple, repetitive task", which is not fitting into the category of "heroic story". You know, the usual type of MMO quests.
General:
* Seems that the Game has PvE Mode and a PvP Mode - SifiWire
* The Majority of the Game can be done without Any help from anyone else - StarWarsMMO Demo
* There is mention of a Player Driven Economy in the review from Joystiq.
* No grinding - Destructoid review.
* They are looking into seperate servers for PvP, RP etc as an option. - StarWarsMMO
* PvP, Auction House, Raiding and an Economy all confirmed on video by a Dev: ZAM
Combat: * No Auto Attack - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
* Combat is fast paced (Almost Console Speed) - TenTonHammer
* Enemies fall fast and come quick, and the pace of action is consistent. - EuroGamer
* Cooldowns on the skills were very short, and the skills themselves were swift, immediate - EuroGamer
Flashpoints/Loot:
* End Game Content like Raiding is available if players do not want to re roll - MMOGamer
* Choices in Flashpoints can change the course of the instance. Kill a NPC and 'A' happens.. do not kill and 'B' happens. - Mentioned in Multiple Reviews
* Flashpoints can be done solo or grouped.
* Group decisions in Flashpoints (Its mentioned that BW are still working on how to apply LS/DS points depending on outcome).
* PvP loot mentioned as loot in the gamespot Smuggler interview.
* Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
Now the bottom line and conclusion is: when EA paid a hefty sum for Bioware, they sure expected a MMO with a monthly fee keeping gamers a LONG time, for in no other realistic way Bioware would be worth so much money. That would suggest SWTOR DOES HAVE some long lasting game qualities, which would clearly say, that story is just "one part among many others", which also would mean we have been deceived about SWTOR being "all heroic". There WOULD be the proverbial "20 rats" to kill. The trash mobs, the fedex quests, the faction grind - you name it - everything any normal MMO has. Truth be told, I personally am HOPING this is so. The other way would be, Bioware deceives itself, when they think a game with story alone has the weight to keep gamers for a longer period of time, no matter how interesting you can make a story. it would NEVER ever work. MMO gamers are used to some things, and only some things are known to create communities. And only MMOs with communities can survive a longer time.
So my worst fear ironically is Bioware would be honest. What I fear is, that everything is heroic story, people play it with one or two classes through and then be done. What that LucasArts guy hinted, that there would be a vast untapped potential of single player gamers who never played a MMO so far, hints this may indeed be their hope, and I just implore them to NOT believe that! The MMO market is not expanded into single player gamers anymore! Period. I have no proof for this last assumption, but my strongest feeling of truth. A MMo gamer is a kind of person, a lifestyle, and the WOW model tapped what was left by mechanics we dont need to discuss, but which worked, apparently.
I am sorry for the long text and complex thought. I know, it may be difficult to follow, and I hope you answer civil and fair. It is a theory, nothing more, but I fear when they are serious with their idea that EVERYTHING is heroic, and can be soloed, it would no bode well. I mean it could still be a very good game. Thats not the point. But in no way in hell it will bring back that sort of money EA paid nor would that form a years lasting community in the game.
So, challange my analysis.
I have posted a list of things that we do know to be true about this game at this point in time. Some of the things that we know due to the various reviews at E3 (a gameplay demo was available in order for gaming publications to play and make an assessment) do agree with points that you have brought up. Many of the things that we do know about the game at this point in time do not mesh with your analysis.
I suspect that anything found in the gameplay demo may be subject to change prior to launch, but as it stands right now, it looks like it has all or most of the things one would expect from an MMO, plus some additional things that may make it interesting.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Having actually heard it from the Doctors mouths at the Canada Game Developers Conference, I can quote them saying "TOR will deliver everything you're used to in an MMO - PLUS story".
Reading the previews written by game journalists who have now played it, all saying it's not at all ground breaking gameplay-wise (hotkeys - target selection - map in the corner - WoW in space etc), I'm confident it will at least be adequate.
Keep speculating how it's gonna play if you like, but I really feel it's a huge waste of time at this point. We already know it's gonna be an MMO, lets put time/effort into forging a great community (since that to me is what truly made SWG Pre-CU great... oh yes, I said it)
IV.) Now no matter how good your stories are, I just dont see it that a decend number of players stays in a MMO for more than 3-4 months. I just do not see it. Taking the not small playtime per day of the average MMO gamer, I am sure most will be through the story 2 times by then at LEAST. I am sorry if I have to burst your bubble, but a game merely driven by story wont hold people alone a long time. 6 months is the max. time. V.) The ONLY thing proven to keep gamers a longer time, is repetitive tasks, like it or not. Just going out hunting stuff. (Not to speak of the fact that many feel "mindless grinding" as something relaxing, actually!) You just would have to create 100+ planets with story to equal the play-time amount a MMO like WOW or EQ2 or GW can muster by grind. Grind, meaning "not heroic, simple, repetitive task", which is not fitting into the category of "heroic story". You know, the usual type of MMO quests.
I think it will be more like LOTRO than WoW in this regard. We get new "episodes" more frequently that will continue storylines.
TBH, I would welcome this. Most repetitive tasks in games like WoW are not fun. I would rather take smaller, but more frequent updates than wait 6-8 months for next major content patch.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Comments
First of all, what does that even mean?
Second, who are you to lecture us about "what an MMO should be" and why should I give a damn?
It sounds to me like there are no MMOs you actually like...
What I meant was pretty clear. If you disagree with it, games like WoW are perfect for you (and most definitely the upcoming COD MMO).
Why should you give a damn? You shouldn't, but this is a forum. It's kind of silly to go to a place of discussion and tell people to stop discussing.
If I had said 5 years ago:
"I want to pay a subscription fee for a single player game, and then play an extremely generic MMO for two weeks." I would have been laughed at.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Frankly, you're right. They're all getting a bit tiresome. The novelty of the genre after ten years of reiteration is wearing pretty thin, particularly given that the whole lot of 'em still pale in comparison to traditional pen 'n paper roleplaying games (at least in my opinion).
But I'll bite; what MMO(s) do you like? Which one(s) do you think would better hold up against the level of scrutiny the naysayers here seem more than eager to throw towards a game that isn't even in alpha testing?
First off its not a game that will be released this year so its too early to complain about lack of content info. As far as I know the current demo has only been shown to a few at E3 and they are not showing it to us yet. The story telling methodology is probably different enough to draw a lot of angst from forum trolls who complain about no difference in MMO game play between games, but will argue aggressively on a new game forum about how it has to be just like older games. That being said the lack of info may be on purpose but I honestly think they are waiting for the rest of the large conventions. Pretty sure they will be at PAX for instance.
I kind of think OP is just hoping to taunt Bioware into giving him a beta slot to prove him wrong LOL.
Short answer they can't nor can any other MMO. They can't protect the gamer from themselves. If the gamer doesn't want to run out of content and already know everything about the game they shouldn't read that info or get power leveled. If they do NO game will ever satisfy them for long past the the NDA being lifted. That is not any MMO's fault or any Game company (SP, MP, or MMO) cheaters will cheat. And some people will always want a short cut.
This game will probably be a huge undertaking to keep content fresh. They may have to do good sized content updates every 3 months to try and stay ahead of their players (CoX style).That would mean roughly 4 good sized updates a year to keep players long term. That may be rough for them, but if thay can pull it off it may be good for us. My guess would be they wouldn't release the game till they are well into if not finished with the 1st content update. I hope they make it fairly modular and easy to add content to (again CoX-ish functionality but much more in-depth).
Don't forget it is still very early in the process. Only time will tell. I too am interested in seeing how Bioware will handle their first MMORPG (and the first real MMO-RPG we have seen in a long time.
/carry on
If that works i am seriously going to flame Bioware every chance i get ... " SW:TOR is nothing more than SWG:NGE + WOW
It is totally a rehash of every other MMO out there and Story telling is bad for MMO's if i want to see a story i will read a book or go to a movie. OMG OMG this game is Epic FAIL". ..... can i have an invite too please ... *ahem cough cough* I mean... "Bioware if you think anyone will play your game for more then 1 month you are sadly mistaken and i will be more than happy to put you in your place and prove it." No amount of kissing up to me will change my mind even if you sent me 10 CB invites.."
/carry on
I have posted a list of things that we do know to be true about this game at this point in time. Some of the things that we know due to the various reviews at E3 (a gameplay demo was available in order for gaming publications to play and make an assessment) do agree with points that you have brought up. Many of the things that we do know about the game at this point in time do not mesh with your analysis.
I suspect that anything found in the gameplay demo may be subject to change prior to launch, but as it stands right now, it looks like it has all or most of the things one would expect from an MMO, plus some additional things that may make it interesting.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Having actually heard it from the Doctors mouths at the Canada Game Developers Conference, I can quote them saying "TOR will deliver everything you're used to in an MMO - PLUS story".
Reading the previews written by game journalists who have now played it, all saying it's not at all ground breaking gameplay-wise (hotkeys - target selection - map in the corner - WoW in space etc), I'm confident it will at least be adequate.
Keep speculating how it's gonna play if you like, but I really feel it's a huge waste of time at this point. We already know it's gonna be an MMO, lets put time/effort into forging a great community (since that to me is what truly made SWG Pre-CU great... oh yes, I said it)
An analysis based on pure speculation = pure speculation.
Agree. We will know when it is out, not likely before so all the speculation is really silly at this point.
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I think it will be more like LOTRO than WoW in this regard. We get new "episodes" more frequently that will continue storylines.
TBH, I would welcome this. Most repetitive tasks in games like WoW are not fun. I would rather take smaller, but more frequent updates than wait 6-8 months for next major content patch.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Bioware doesn't owe you dick. Go play the emulator and shut your cakehole, junior.