Rare spawns and drops, how to handle them differently in FFXIV

neKrow

NM, HNM, HNMLS, Rares, etc.

From reading the forums here this seems to be one of the main things that players want addressed in the new Final Fantasy.

Waiting for hours for a chance to tag a rare spawn with a chance it would drop a coveted item. Recording Times of Death for your LS. Suspected bot campers. It wasnt exactly a walk in the park to take down some of these critters.

So my question is: How should these spawns (if any) be handled differently?

Keep in mind we have to limit the number of rewards in the world to the same amount as the old system would allow.

Khrymson

Rare Spawns just like we have now, but if you kill them outright the drop rates are still very low and more than likely you won't get the item!  This time add in various odd and semi-rare drops that can drop off any enemy in that zone or anywhere in the game really, and have that item be like a pop item like FFXI already has for the ???.  You know you need a specific item to make the NM spawn from the ???.

Instead of finding the ??? you have to find the rare spawn NM and use said rare item on them and if you win you get like a 50-75% chance of the rare item dropping!  Hrm, sounded better in my head, but eh just an idea!

 

Nekrataal

I think the timers were decent to keep rarity, but maybe a lil better drop rate would be nice. What has to change is the claim method. It needs to involve more then luck, claim bots ( at the time I was playing anyways) & reflexes... Idk, maybe something like 1st group to deal 5-10% damage locks it.

I'm sure there's other ways, but like this one.

edit:  maybe a group threat meter & 1st group to reach a threshold wins the claim. BUT, if a DD goes wild to boost your threat gain to much & die, his threat  is reduced to zero setting the party back by what he had accumulated thus far.

I think I like that one even better.

UngoHumungo

My thought would be to create a new mob type that  loot right and kill credit goes to the part who does the most dmg....I don't like that idea on every mob.  But certain mobs where competition is a given in MMOs and why not add a little more especially where good loot is involved,  this would also reduce the number of botters who are able to get the loot, while still keeping the game fun and balanced

Jimmydean

I'm not sure if FFXXIV would want to go in this direction, but EQ did quite well at the open zone spawns + keeping things from being overcamped. There was a lot of gear spread throughout EQ, so you never had 1 specific boss that you had to camp and wait for. There was always something up somewhere, and guilds did a pretty good job at rotating in and out of dungeons when things were up.

The current FFXI system HAS to go. It has gotten to the point where to even claim HNMs you MUST have at least 5-10 people running Illegal claim bots in your LS to have a chance at the HQ spawns. Things are claimed literally before they even appear on screen.

Hyanmen

The current FFXi system is quite perfect, just poorly implemented. RoTZ ruined it, and there's not much SE could do about it today, but with XIV we'll most likely get to see the real potential of the system presented to us in XI.

Poonjabi

To be honest, a lot of the problems that arose from the HNM's in FFXI were the times they fell under.  For example, when the HNM's fell under JP-primetime, NA HNMLS' suffered in return.  The standard 21-24 hour spawn time was a pretty taxing spawn rate on an LS, especially if they happened to miss a camp, and therefore lost the ToD (Time of Death).  An easy way to fix this is obviously to cut down the spawn rate.  Possible to perhaps a 10-12 hour respawn time, or maybe even a 6-8 hour respawn time.  In the latter, it gives the possibility of that HNM popping up to 4x a day, or 3 times a day.  This way, no matter what region you are from, a pop is almost guaranteed to be present during your regions primetime hours. 

The next question is how would they then adress the issue of the Fafnir to Nidhogg, Behemoth to King Behemoth, or Adamantoise to Aspid rates.  One way they could possibly due this is change the days from a 7 day spawn cycle, to perhaps a 3 day spawn cycle since the rate of spawns are increased greatly.  Instead of having the possibility of the "Greater" popping at one time, they could do it as a rate of 2x/cycle.  Surely, this progression from a lesser to greater HNM might not even be present in FFXIV, but seeing as how it was arguably the most popular aspect of the Endgame scene in FFXI, I tend to believe it will be back. 

But making the spawn time from 6-8 hours (or 10-12, rather than 21-24 would make a lot of people happier since a.) More pops/day and b.) 1 less hour spent camping an HNM if it goes full window.  As a person who was knee-deep in endgame for a long time, this is something that I've discussed at length with many of my LS-mates and we felt this could be a good approach moving forward.  I still believe there is room for some of the bigger HNM's (Tiamat, Vrtra, Jormy, etc.) to have the longer spawns, simply because of the massive battles that ensue to fight them, but I do feel that the 21-24 hour spawns are a little bit too length, and should be addressed.

toddze

Originally posted by Nekrataal


 maybe something like 1st group to deal 5-10% damage locks it

 

One major problem with this. Its sounds good but it is flawed. You ever heard the phrase, "the rich get richer" well the best eqipt group will do the most damage and always win claim.

I think a good way to do it would be to have the HNM's spawn in a huge zone, and 100% random anywhere in the zone, Then the team that could mobilize the fastest and gather up gets claim, of course if you claim too early your gonna wipe.

Jimmydean

I think one big problem with FFXI too was the Ninja Shadow issue. A group of 5 people could hold an HNM for a long long time until their buddies show up. FFXIV could make HNM type mobs more difficult so that you would need your entire force and you couldn't just "hold" HNMS. I know the 30 - 1hr timer on enrage sort of helps that in FFXI, but nowdays it takes like 5-10 min max to kill the normal ground kings so it's not stopping much.

I just think the HNM situation on FFXI is not something most people would like seen carried over to FFXIV in its current state. There has to be a solution, hopefully SE can figure it out.

Zandora2018

What would be great is if they did something along the line as in the team/guild that does the most damage gets the kill. i know Aion has this as well as a few other MMO'S. It seems lot more fair this way and have more then 1 HNM pop at one time. This way only one guild/ LS would get 1 kill and another can get 1 and so on. This way all the Gold farmers will have to have like 300+ ppl on to claim them all. )

toddze

Speaking of holding it. the time frame needs to change, 20-24 hr window was to condussive to holding a boss to keep it in your Ls time zone. For example I was in a Japanese HNMLS and depending on the time it poped, we would either zerg it down and kill it asap or hold it as long as possible in attempt to keep the window in Japanese prime time, or try to move it to JP prime time. Even with the 1 hour time frame before it went zerg we were pretty effective at keeping it in the time zone we wanted.

I think a 12-16 hour pop time would be good to share the wealth with all time zones. And get rid of the window coming every 30 min. make every minute a window.

If they really really really wanted to get sadistic they could make em pop in a zone full of elite type mobes.  

Dnomsed

Originally posted by toddze


I think a good way to do it would be to have the HNM's spawn in a huge zone, and 100% random anywhere in the zone, Then the team that could mobilize the fastest and gather up gets claim, of course if you claim too early your gonna wipe.

 

This.  I've never played FFXI, but I had a girlfriend that sat beside me and played it every night for years and years so I learned alot about the positives and negatives of that game.  Having a more random repop across a broader area makes it less possible for cheaters (botters) to profit.

Gothic0420

Keep the respawns low.

Why do people want to make the Rare spawns pop more? THEN THEY WONT BE RARE SPAWN!!!

so much carebearing its not even funny. They are rare then they should stay that way. Which makes them good drops. If everyone has the drop then it would not be a rare spawn it will be just a mob. thats it.

If its over camped then go somewhere else or sit there and try like the rest. Don`t dumb down FFXIV with carebear moves like this.

Nekrataal

From some other suggestion in this thread, now that I think about it, I would see a 19-20h timer to slowly spread the chance over all time zone.( thats if they don't split time zone this around). Yes, only a 1h window of which every seconds might see the boss spawn.

I really don't see the use of the 3 hour interval seriously.

Stuckov

Originally posted by Nekrataal


From some other suggestion in this thread, now that I think about it, I would see a 19-20h timer to slowly spread the chance over all time zone.( thats if they don't split time zone this around). Yes, only a 1h window of which every seconds might see the boss spawn.
I really don't see the use of the 3 hour interval seriously.

 

The 3 hour interval was purely used to rotate the spawntimes of NMs hopefully they make it so we dont need that if they make the timers less then 24 hours. or even more.. as long as its not exactly 24 lol 30 hours would work too.

toddze

Originally posted by Gothic0420


Keep the respawns low.
Why do people want to make the Rare spawns pop more? THEN THEY WONT BE RARE SPAWN!!!
so much carebearing its not even funny. They are rare then they should stay that way. Which makes them good drops. If everyone has the drop then it would not be a rare spawn it will be just a mob. thats it.
If its over camped then go somewhere else or sit there and try like the rest. Don`t dumb down FFXIV with carebear moves like this.

 

I agree but I dont think 12-16 hour repop time is too small. There will only be a limited number of people who could attend each pop time. Anyways you could double the pops of the hnm's required for the king version to pop. The normal HNM pop was pretty much just trash anyways. (fafnir had some nice drops tho). I was just suggesting a way to stop the holding of the HNM to move/keep it in a desired time zone, which was a big deal on the server I played on.  

natuxatu

MMm I'm sure it'll be fun no matter how they approch it. I like how they are in main zones to get rare drops instead of high end raid type dungons. it gives more people a chance but still requires work and patience.

One of my proudest momenst was getting the signa staff from the bird thingies in the area by windurst. ^^ I still remember that after all these years. ^^

Satimasu

I'd say just do something like the ZNM system from ToAU. There are people that still like the land kings and all that, but the ZNM system everyone seemed to like for the most part. That and the Einherjar type thing that gives you a chance at stuff the others endgame events like Sky can get.

There is also the BC type thing they did as well to fight HNM mobs for the drops the popped ones dropped. There was pretty much always an alternative to these things. So, I'm sure if they do something similar, there will be a casual, not have to compete with everyone alternative to it.

toddze

Originally posted by natuxatu


MMm I'm sure it'll be fun no matter how they approch it. I like how they are in main zones to get rare drops instead of high end raid type dungons. it gives more people a chance but still requires work and patience.
One of my proudest momenst was getting the signa staff from the bird thingies in the area by windurst. ^^ I still remember that after all these years. ^^

 

Thats the best part about a good "hardcore" type game. Your accomplishments mean something and that you will always have the memories of it. That Yugada (sp) in castle oztroja (sp) was one of the few NM's I never was apart of killing. Thats where it poped if my memory serves me correct.  

Skeeterxi

They are aiming for a casual crowd with this game so I highly doubt camping NMs for hours for a chance of a low drop rate is going to be a big focus of the game like FFXI. It would be an instant killer to most of the casual crowd. If they wanted to keep it, I would say increase spawn rates on soloable NMs by quite a bit, and drop rates too. Maybe even have a system where the NM can drop a type of currency specifically for the piece of gear it drops so if you have incredibly bad luck with drop rates, you will eventually get the gear from the currency aquired and make the currency non tradeable.

For harder HNMs make it so when the NM spawns, anyone can attack it, but if you or someone in your party/alliance attack it you and your whole group are sent into private phased encounter with the HNM so every linkshell gets to fight it when it spawns, almost like in other FF games random encounters. Make it so you can only fight the HNM once per spawn as well so when players kill the HNM and are ported back to the zone they can't just attack it again and farm it. Different HNMs may keep spawned for different amount of times, Kings stay spawned for 15 minutes, HNMs half an hour etc. This would keep people camping HNMs and needing to keep track of ToDs and spawn windows without the frustration of missing claim on a 24 hour spawn. Who has the fastest claim bot should not be the way to end game HNM camping.

I really think HNM camping added to the community, being out in the zones camping amongs many other players was very social. It was just too damn frustrating, I think a solution like this would be pretty reasonable. The casuals could take their stabs at the hard HNMs without the frustration of missing super long spawns and the hardcores can camp and farm them everyday like they do in FFXI.

andrewclear

I say keep them like they are, except change it so they can't be botted.  I think SE has gone in the right direction with the two new HNMs.  Not gonna be able to bot Ixion, since you have to have the stygian ash, and you have to track his ass down (he can spawn in mutliple zones).  Also with the sandworm.  I think they should probably make all the HNMs in ffxiv have various spawn locations instead of fix spots, and possibly have an item to claim them.

I myself don't like camping much, but I do it to help the ls.  Some of them love the crap.  But, it is a great feeling to get the mob and defeat it, and know that you are the only group for the next 24 hours (sometimes longer) that will get to kill that monster.

AND NO DO NOT INCREASE DROP RATES.  Don't need another wow, and I firmly believe that everybody doesn't deserve everything.  If everyone had everything, would it mean anything?  Like the old fashioned city of heroes complaint...if everyone is a heroe, are there really heroes? 

Stuckov

Originally posted by Skeeterxi


They are aiming for a casual crowd with this game so I highly doubt camping NMs for hours for a chance of a low drop rate is going to be a big focus of the game like FFXI. It would be an instant killer to most of the casual crowd. If they wanted to keep it, I would say increase spawn rates on soloable NMs by quite a bit, and drop rates too. Maybe even have a system where the NM can drop a type of currency specifically for the piece of gear it drops so if you have incredibly bad luck with drop rates, you will eventually get the gear from the currency aquired and make the currency non tradeable.
For harder HNMs make it so when the NM spawns, anyone can attack it, but if you or someone in your party/alliance attack it you and your whole group are sent into private phased encounter with the HNM so every linkshell gets to fight it when it spawns, almost like in other FF games random encounters. Make it so you can only fight the HNM once per spawn as well so when players kill the HNM and are ported back to the zone they can't just attack it again and farm it. Different HNMs may keep spawned for different amount of times, Kings stay spawned for 15 minutes, HNMs half an hour etc. This would keep people camping HNMs and needing to keep track of ToDs and spawn windows without the frustration of missing claim on a 24 hour spawn. Who has the fastest claim bot should not be the way to end game HNM camping.
I really think HNM camping added to the community, being out in the zones camping amongs many other players was very social. It was just too damn frustrating, I think a solution like this would be pretty reasonable. The casuals could take their stabs at the hard HNMs without the frustration of missing super long spawns and the hardcores can camp and farm them everyday like they do in FFXI.

 

Because they say that the game will be more casual friendly does not mean that casual players will be able to acomplish everything in the game with their casual play. It just means that there will be content for them too not that they will get rid of content for the hardcore player.

toddze

Originally posted by Skeeterxi


They are aiming for a casual crowd with this game so I highly doubt camping NMs for hours for a chance of a low drop rate is going to be a big focus of the game like FFXI. It would be an instant killer to most of the casual crowd. If they wanted to keep it, I would say increase spawn rates on soloable NMs by quite a bit, and drop rates too. Maybe even have a system where the NM can drop a type of currency specifically for the piece of gear it drops so if you have incredibly bad luck with drop rates, you will eventually get the gear from the currency aquired and make the currency non tradeable.
For harder HNMs make it so when the NM spawns, anyone can attack it, but if you or someone in your party/alliance attack it you and your whole group are sent into private phased encounter with the HNM so every linkshell gets to fight it when it spawns, almost like in other FF games random encounters. Make it so you can only fight the HNM once per spawn as well so when players kill the HNM and are ported back to the zone they can't just attack it again and farm it. Different HNMs may keep spawned for different amount of times, Kings stay spawned for 15 minutes, HNMs half an hour etc. This would keep people camping HNMs and needing to keep track of ToDs and spawn windows without the frustration of missing claim on a 24 hour spawn. Who has the fastest claim bot should not be the way to end game HNM camping.
I really think HNM camping added to the community, being out in the zones camping amongs many other players was very social. It was just too damn frustrating, I think a solution like this would be pretty reasonable. The casuals could take their stabs at the hard HNMs without the frustration of missing super long spawns and the hardcores can camp and farm them everyday like they do in FFXI.

 

Dang that would be casual for sure. Even with my now limited playtime I would have everthing I wanted within 6 months and be looking for a new game. I sure hope SE doesnt go that casual.

edit: can I ask you a question? To me thats just a boring gind and timesink you know you will get what you want, its a matter of time. heres the question:  Why would you want something so simple so structured? Theres no challenege in that. Everybody will have the drops they want. It makes no sense to me.

rebelleon

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Nekrataal


 maybe something like 1st group to deal 5-10% damage locks it

 

One major problem with this. Its sounds good but it is flawed. You ever heard the phrase, "the rich get richer" well the best eqipt group will do the most damage and always win claim.

I think a good way to do it would be to have the HNM's spawn in a huge zone, and 100% random anywhere in the zone, Then the team that could mobilize the fastest and gather up gets claim, of course if you claim too early your gonna wipe.

 

this would still end up with poepl using bots and 3rd party programs to catch the spawn. It also is no way for a game dev to tst this because the areas in FFXI are HUGE and they would have no way to tell when, if, where the spawn happened or properly the way it should while testing phases. And it would be no fun for devs to make this part of their game so unfun, and nearly impossible to claim/play with others where everyone is so spread out it takes 10 minutes or longer to meet up actuially trying to save their party memebrs while in a group from what theyt have been camping so long for .

Stuckov

Originally posted by rebelleon

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Nekrataal


 maybe something like 1st group to deal 5-10% damage locks it

 

One major problem with this. Its sounds good but it is flawed. You ever heard the phrase, "the rich get richer" well the best eqipt group will do the most damage and always win claim.

I think a good way to do it would be to have the HNM's spawn in a huge zone, and 100% random anywhere in the zone, Then the team that could mobilize the fastest and gather up gets claim, of course if you claim too early your gonna wipe.

 

this would still end up with poepl using bots and 3rd party programs to catch the spawn. It also is no way for a game dev to tst this because the areas in FFXI are HUGE and they would have no way to tell when, if, where the spawn happened or properly the way it should while testing phases. And it would be no fun for devs to make this part of their game so unfun, and nearly impossible to claim/play with others where everyone is so spread out it takes 10 minutes or longer to meet up actuially trying to save their party memebrs while in a group from what theyt have been camping so long for .

 

How would u use bots to claim a HNM in a huge area the Devs themselves have a hard time telling where/if/when the spawn happened?

I think this method is the most fair out of them so far.

 

Hyanmen

Just have enough players to cover the whole zone, then. With bots of course.