Well your post seems to be focusing on graphics, especially with the don't want to look at a bucket of puke... statement. As far as graphics in Darkfall, I think they're good. Yeah, thats right. I like the graphics in Darkfall, and yes, I do think it's beutifully detailed. The only problem with it, is the lack of PvE. And the PvE that currently exists, consists of exploitation. Once this is fixed, in my eyes, the game will be perfect. Am I a niche? Yes, I suppose I am.
Nowadays, people who don't cry and whine when they die, and enjoy risky, heart-pumping PvP that has a meaning, in an uninstanced world with no shitty little crappy instanced mini-games like an FPS, are a niche. I'm happy to be part of this niche, and Darkfall suits my playstyle perfectly. And when you say it looks like puke, I don't understand that... The graphics are visually better than the most popular MMO on the market, and the world is also far more nicely detailed (Before someone mentions it, I know it's rather empty. They cut lots of mobs because of exploitation). They just need to fix AI exploitation (players getting into walls), and add more mobs and PvE that's worth doing. Then Darkfall will be fucking amazing.
before making posts like this; please, at least play darkfall.
can you look at the graphics in a pvp game, and ignore the awful animations of both characters and the background? i guess, if you're just looking at screenshots.
how're you enjoying not having to harvest because of your super advanced henchmen AI? how're you enjoying that player housing? how're you enjoying skilling up those pets you've tamed? how're you enjoying the revolutionary mob AI that is so advanced that it can simulate actual players? how's the non-repetitive, challenging, fun & exciting crafting going? what about those 300+ prestige classes? which ones of those are you training? how about those sieges where you can crouchwalk UNDER the fortress/city walls because they are placed so shittily that they don't even touch the ground? how about those ships with cannons TWICE the range of city towers? nothing like a tiny ship, bobbing on the ocean, with firepower that dwarfs that of a full-fledged city!!!!!! how about texting your friend's phone from inside the game (sms and all dontchaknow)? that revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize? you can use the trade system from the darkfall website! all those super advanced chat system innovations -- you enjoying all that revolutionary technology? how about invading an enemy city, logging out in their keep, logging back in, running invulnerable from the keep to the enemy bank and whipping out a cannon? you enjoying that?
yup, once they stop the "ai exploitation of players hiding in walls" then this game will be fucking amazing!
whether this game is truly defined as a "niche" or not, is truly a moot point - the game itself, is horridly implemented, boring IN EXTREMIS grinds, non-communicative dev team, and just broken and/or stupid game mechanics...
I played Darkfall for 2 months, with about 350 xFire in-game hours logged (played longer than that, don't sign in sometimes. So I'm not just talking shit.
And yes, yes. Nice work, you made a list of very old FAQ features (which were Aventurines high expectations whilst developing the game), along with very over-exagerated points (They never said 300+ prestiege classes, more like "12+". And they're still planned for the future I believe), and a few now fixed bugs (can't log in invulnerable anymore, and walking under city walls? Wasn't aware of that, and if so it's probably fixed. I do remember jumping up a corner of a wall and a mountain though, to get into a city. Their clan reported it and it got fixed.)
You also mentioned alot of website features that aren't in YET, yes I said yet. You see how much of the interface is actually in a browser? Well, I expect that soon, the games official site, will be integrated with the game. I imagine you'll be able to manage your clan and city bindstone from work, and talk to people who are in-game through the site. Aswell as access the forums from either in-game, or on an internet browser. There's probably more they'll do with it.
Also, the revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize that you mentioned, I imagine that this will also have something to do with game / website integration. Also, Aventurine called it revolutionary in their FAQ, but game-website integration, whilst was indeed very revolutionary when they wrote it, probably isn't new to us anymore. However, still a very amazing feature I believe.
Face it, they released the game early. You pay for a beta. It ofcourse has bugs, glitches etc just like any other beta would. And quite a number of the more advanced features are missing. But look, the core of the game is there. And what is there, works very well, and is very fun to play in my opinion. I don't care what anyone else says, I just absolutely love the stuff you're capable of doing in the game, and just the general feel of the game, the gameplay. I love the politics and drama too, brawls between different Alliances, and sometimes internal brawls, with guilds within the alliance falling out with one another. - I act all serious in-game, for role-play sake. But really, I love it.
In my opinion, the PvP, Crafting, and traveling and exploring aspects are 100% spot on. PvE is broken, and the rest isn't implemented yet.
When I have the free time, I'm going to make a blog or something, that has stories of the shit we got up to in DF. It's just so fun, and I love the game. Each to his own.
_________ Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
You ordered the msot expensive hot dog on the meny: chili dog with extra cheese and special bread.
But when the waiter brings it to you he tells you: sorry we dont have any bread so you'll have to eat that chiliy and cheese covered sausage with your hands. Oh and btw we didnt have any beans for the chili, so you'll get them in 1 or 2h
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
Well your post seems to be focusing on graphics, especially with the don't want to look at a bucket of puke... statement. As far as graphics in Darkfall, I think they're good. Yeah, thats right. I like the graphics in Darkfall, and yes, I do think it's beutifully detailed. The only problem with it, is the lack of PvE. And the PvE that currently exists, consists of exploitation. Once this is fixed, in my eyes, the game will be perfect. Am I a niche? Yes, I suppose I am.
Nowadays, people who don't cry and whine when they die, and enjoy risky, heart-pumping PvP that has a meaning, in an uninstanced world with no shitty little crappy instanced mini-games like an FPS, are a niche. I'm happy to be part of this niche, and Darkfall suits my playstyle perfectly. And when you say it looks like puke, I don't understand that... The graphics are visually better than the most popular MMO on the market, and the world is also far more nicely detailed (Before someone mentions it, I know it's rather empty. They cut lots of mobs because of exploitation). They just need to fix AI exploitation (players getting into walls), and add more mobs and PvE that's worth doing. Then Darkfall will be fucking amazing.
before making posts like this; please, at least play darkfall.
can you look at the graphics in a pvp game, and ignore the awful animations of both characters and the background? i guess, if you're just looking at screenshots.
how're you enjoying not having to harvest because of your super advanced henchmen AI? how're you enjoying that player housing? how're you enjoying skilling up those pets you've tamed? how're you enjoying the revolutionary mob AI that is so advanced that it can simulate actual players? how's the non-repetitive, challenging, fun & exciting crafting going? what about those 300+ prestige classes? which ones of those are you training? how about those sieges where you can crouchwalk UNDER the fortress/city walls because they are placed so shittily that they don't even touch the ground? how about those ships with cannons TWICE the range of city towers? nothing like a tiny ship, bobbing on the ocean, with firepower that dwarfs that of a full-fledged city!!!!!! how about texting your friend's phone from inside the game (sms and all dontchaknow)? that revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize? you can use the trade system from the darkfall website! all those super advanced chat system innovations -- you enjoying all that revolutionary technology? how about invading an enemy city, logging out in their keep, logging back in, running invulnerable from the keep to the enemy bank and whipping out a cannon? you enjoying that?
yup, once they stop the "ai exploitation of players hiding in walls" then this game will be fucking amazing!
whether this game is truly defined as a "niche" or not, is truly a moot point - the game itself, is horridly implemented, boring IN EXTREMIS grinds, non-communicative dev team, and just broken and/or stupid game mechanics...
I played Darkfall for 2 months, with about 350 xFire in-game hours logged (played longer than that, don't sign in sometimes. So I'm not just talking shit.
And yes, yes. Nice work, you made a list of very old FAQ features (which were Aventurines high expectations whilst developing the game), along with very over-exagerated points (They never said 300+ prestiege classes, more like "12+". And they're still planned for the future I believe), and a few now fixed bugs (can't log in invulnerable anymore, and walking under city walls? Wasn't aware of that, and if so it's probably fixed. I do remember jumping up a corner of a wall and a mountain though, to get into a city. Their clan reported it and it got fixed.) <<< ok,. you're proving you have no idea what you're talking about... there were HUNDREDS OF PRESTIGE CLASSES. so, you're either lying, of you have no idea what you're talking about. OLD faq features? weird, some of those are STILL on the website.
we darkfall players are TIRED of people LYING about darkfall - troll elsewhere!
You also mentioned alot of website features that aren't in YET, yes I said yet. You see how much of the interface is actually in a browser? Well, I expect that soon, the games official site, will be integrated with the game. I imagine you'll be able to manage your clan and city bindstone from work, and talk to people who are in-game through the site. Aswell as access the forums from either in-game, or on an internet browser. There's probably more they'll do with it. <<features advertised as a part of the game, on the official game's site, run and managed and owned by the gaming company... that is illegal in the united states, we call that false advertising. ILLEGAL AS IN BREAKING THE LAW. consumers are protected against scams such as that in the USA.
Also, the revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize that you mentioned, I imagine that this will also have something to do with game / website integration. Also, Aventurine called it revolutionary in their FAQ, but game-website integration, whilst was indeed very revolutionary when they wrote it, probably isn't new to us anymore. However, still a very amazing feature I believe. <<< it doesn't exist in darkfall, only in the lies that are in their website
Face it, they released the game early. You pay for a beta. It ofcourse has bugs, glitches etc just like any other beta would. << it's called beta testing. seriously, post in one of the several dozen threads IN THIS FORUM, that cover EVERY inaccurate statement you are making. we darkfall players are tired of this endless series of untruths.
And quite a number of the more advanced features are missing. But look, the core of the game is there. And what is there, works very well, and is very fun to play in my opinion. <<< have you missed the horrible game mechanics involved in sieging, which just i have posted today? you either don't play, or you are lying -- sieging is currently broken in horrible game breaking fashions.
I don't care what anyone else says, <<< SO STOP LYING. I, AS A DARKFALL PLAYER AM SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE LYING ABOUT THIS BLODY GAME.
I just absolutely love the stuff you're capable of doing in the game, and just the general feel of the game, the gameplay. I love the politics and drama too, brawls between different Alliances, and sometimes internal brawls, with guilds within the alliance falling out with one another. - I act all serious in-game, for role-play sake. But really, I love it.
In my opinion, the PvP, Crafting, and traveling and exploring aspects are 100% spot on. PvE is broken, and the rest isn't implemented yet.
When I have the free time, I'm going to make a blog or something, that has stories of the shit we got up to in DF. It's just so fun, and I love the game. Each to his own.
seriously - whatever. put up accurate information in your postings, or go troll somewhere else. lies, presented as opinion, which contradict factual information ARE LIES.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Hey guys, thanks for keeping this thread civil, and for the many interesting replies [I'm sure there will be more]. I wish this forum software did not make quoting other posters so awkward, or else I would like to quote and reply to several in this post. But anyways.....
Yes, as someone said [as if it is a criticism? lol], this thread is about what it means to be a niche game, and more specifically how this applies to a game like Darkfail. Of course there are different definitions of what it means to be "niche", but as myself and several other posters in this thread have observed, the term has come to be used frequently by gamers and developers to try to spin a bad game, in other words they try to imply that it's not "bad" it's "special". Fanboys of Darkfail are among the most notorious for using the word in this way, but more and more when someone describes a game as "niche" you can just assume that it means the game is crap.
I have a hard time getting on board with the idea that developers are making their game for a specific small demographic of gamers ONLY. Do you really think the Darkfail developers, for example, were hoping to MAX their game at say 100,000 subs, do you really think they intentionally DESIGNED the game in order that this would be the maximum possible level of success that they were dreaming of. You really think they didn't have a vision of themselves building the new revolutionary game that would be a wild and crazy success with millions of subscribers and would change the face of MMOs? Nobody, not even the Darkfail devs, puts that much work into a project unless they have a big dream for it. I don't believe these theoretical game developers exist who are trying to design a game that will be "NOT FUN" for most people! It is in the nature of game developers that they want people to enjoy their game. I think it would be extremely rare to find a developer who does not believe [or hope] that most people would enjoy their game if those people took the time to "get into it". Never have I read any game developer interview or essay where the developer talks about how most people are too shit for their game to have any appeal and how they are only designing their game to be fun for the 1% of strange people out there. And certainly I have never seen or heard of that in an MMO context, it is a bit absurd imo to suggest that there are all these developers out there trying to design games that are "not fun" for most people and only have appeal for a small "niche" of bizarro types of humans.
This is why I think the word "niche" is being misused and for most gamers "niche" has just become a polite way of saying a game is shitty, while for developers it has become a way to spin their marketing a little bit when the project does not turn out as good as they had hoped when they started making it.
As I wrote before, if the term is used in a more proper or traditional way, a niche game is something like tournament mahjong. It might be the best mahjong game ever made, but the truth is most people just don't like to play mahjong that much, while some people are addicted to it. This is a game that has a profound appeal to an extremely specific customer base and not much theoretical appeal to anyone else. I don't believe the same concept applies easily to any MMO, and there is no MMO out there currently that could really be considered "niche" imo, except when the term is used in a vague, imprecise way to indicate that the game is not as popular as WoW. IF WE IMAGINED A MMO THAT ACTUALLY FIT THE TRADITIONAL DEFINITION OF "NICHE" IT WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE A HARDCORE PORN S&M MMO. EVEN A HARDCORE PORN MMO WOULD NOT REALLY BE NICHE AS IT HAS THEORETICAL APPEAL
TO MOST PEOPLE, BUT IF IT IS FOCUSED ON S&M THEN THIS IS "NICHE". I don't believe there is any mmo that exists today that is analogous to that, but if there was I and the vast majority of mmo gamers would likely not have heard of it, because by [traditional] definition a niche product is something that most people outside the niche would not be aware of.
AND THAT BRINGS ME TO THE FINAL POINT. Why do people insist on calling EVE a "niche" game? Can you show any evidence that the developers consider or considered it to be "niche"? I really feel when applied to a game like EVE the word "niche" is a misnomer, and it shows how much the meaning of the word has become watered down by fanboys and developers trying to spin their game in a positive way by applying the word "niche" to every game out there that most people would think wasn't a very good game.
Of course whether something is "niche" or not, is ultimately relative. But more and more among mmo gamers it is my observation that the term is used to describe games that are shitty, and this is annoying imo.
Usually people refer as "niche" things that are not mainstream (specially in the US). If you do not have more than 1M subs, you are niche. If you are a Sci-Fi game not sporting some huge license, like SW or ST, then you are niche.
Of course, those are wrong definitions. There are niche games out there, like bass fishing, online pool games, dog simulators and such. They can be perfectly fun for their fans, but do not appeal to the masses, and usually are done with that in mind.
So, "niche" became the piece of resistance of people who likes bad/hugely impopular games. DFO is certainly in this category, now. It's something like the "indie developer" thing, just a slippery term trying to give something a positive spin.
DFO certainly wasn't developed with "niche" in mind. Aventurine (and Tasos, mainly) wanted a huge, open-PVP free for all that would be the latest Internet craze. At least, that's what transpires when you read their announceements/info. However, we all know that things went south faster than birds of passage, and now the fans use "niche" as a last resort, trying to play the "too h4rdc0r3 for joo, n0ob" card, as some sort of explanation of why the game is not bustling. It's certainly easier than facing the fact that people are spending good money on an unfinished product, that they were deceived brutally and shamefully, and that the game is parsecs away from what was hailed as the gamer's Grail.
Denial is part of the human nature, no problem in that. I'm sure that are people who like the game, despite of itself. However, that does not magically erase the abysmal lunch and first monthes of one of the most overhyped and inflated things since the Internet itself.
Hey guys, thanks for keeping this thread civil, and for the many interesting replies [I'm sure there will be more]. I wish this forum software did not make quoting other posters so awkward, or else I would like to quote and reply to several in this post. But anyways.....
Yes, as someone said [as if it is a criticism? lol], this thread is about what it means to be a niche game, and more specifically how this applies to a game like Darkfail. Of course there are different definitions of what it means to be "niche", but as myself and several other posters in this thread have observed, the term has come to be used frequently by gamers and developers to try to spin a bad game, in other words they try to imply that it's not "bad" it's "special". Fanboys of Darkfail are among the most notorious for using the word in this way, but more and more when someone describes a game as "niche" you can just assume that it means the game is crap.
I have a hard time getting on board with the idea that developers are making their game for a specific small demographic of gamers ONLY. Do you really think the Darkfail developers, for example, were hoping to MAX their game at say 100,000 subs, do you really think they intentionally DESIGNED the game in order that this would be the maximum possible level of success that they were dreaming of. You really think they didn't have a vision of themselves building the new revolutionary game that would be a wild and crazy success with millions of subscribers and would change the face of MMOs? Nobody, not even the Darkfail devs, puts that much work into a project unless they have a big dream for it. I don't believe these theoretical game developers exist who are trying to design a game that will be "NOT FUN" for most people! It is in the nature of game developers that they want people to enjoy their game. I think it would be extremely rare to find a developer who does not believe [or hope] that most people would enjoy their game if those people took the time to "get into it". Never have I read any game developer interview or essay where the developer talks about how most people are too shit for their game to have any appeal and how they are only designing their game to be fun for the 1% of strange people out there. And certainly I have never seen or heard of that in an MMO context, it is a bit absurd imo to suggest that there are all these developers out there trying to design games that are "not fun" for most people and only have appeal for a small "niche" of bizarro types of humans.
This is why I think the word "niche" is being misused and for most gamers "niche" has just become a polite way of saying a game is shitty, while for developers it has become a way to spin their marketing a little bit when the project does not turn out as good as they had hoped when they started making it.
As I wrote before, if the term is used in a more proper or traditional way, a niche game is something like tournament mahjong. It might be the best mahjong game ever made, but the truth is most people just don't like to play mahjong that much, while some people are addicted to it. This is a game that has a profound appeal to an extremely specific customer base and not much theoretical appeal to anyone else. I don't believe the same concept applies easily to any MMO, and there is no MMO out there currently that could really be considered "niche" imo, except when the term is used in a vague, imprecise way to indicate that the game is not as popular as WoW. IF WE IMAGINED A MMO THAT ACTUALLY FIT THE TRADITIONAL DEFINITION OF "NICHE" IT WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE A HARDCORE PORN S&M MMO. EVEN A HARDCORE PORN MMO WOULD NOT REALLY BE NICHE AS IT HAS THEORETICAL APPEAL TO MOST PEOPLE, BUT IF IT IS FOCUSED ON S&M THEN THIS IS "NICHE". I don't believe there is any mmo that exists today that is analogous to that, but if there was I and the vast majority of mmo gamers would likely not have heard of it, because by [traditional] definition a niche product is something that most people outside the niche would not be aware of.
AND THAT BRINGS ME TO THE FINAL POINT. Why do people insist on calling EVE a "niche" game? Can you show any evidence that the developers consider or considered it to be "niche"? I really feel when applied to a game like EVE the word "niche" is a misnomer, and it shows how much the meaning of the word has become watered down by fanboys and developers trying to spin their game in a positive way by applying the word "niche" to every game out there that most people would think wasn't a very good game.
Of course whether something is "niche" or not, is ultimately relative. But more and more among mmo gamers it is my observation that the term is used to describe games that are shitty, and this is annoying imo.
isn't everything, in the big scheme of things - a niche?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Mainstream games are made for as wide a demographic as possible. Of course they are going to be less challenging, as a whole. If you want a huge amount of people playing your game, why would you make it too difficult for them? EVE has done damn well, for a niche game. I think the issue is not whether a niche game = a shitty game, but the difference between a well-put together game and one that is thrown out for sale while still incomplete and/or buggy as hell. EVE proves that a solid niche game can make money. You concentrate on the things that make your game unique, polish the piss out of it, and maintain the game well.
QFT
Though I get the impression EVE is more of the exception rather than the rule. Just don't see AV living up to anything near CCP genius. Though admittedly CCP have done some bad things... AV have been stinkingly awful with the first few months.
"Niche game" != "Shitty game", and generally "Niche" != "Difficult".
TBH, aside from "particular" games/films/music with some kind of "cult following", the "niche" term is often used when talking about something which requires a great deal of attention/time/culture to be enjoyed. For example, a fucking difficult game with a fucking steep difficulty curve could become "niche" even if it was perfect in every detail.
That is the reason why 99% of the games today are fucking stupid cake easy at "normal" difficulty settings and start to get challenging in the "ZOMGWTFHARDEST" difficulty level. nother thing that may qualify a game as "niche" is the presence of some design choices which openly go against the "standard" set in a genre. For example, turn-based strategic games are niche.
Now, if we think about Darkfall, we have some good reasons to define it a niche-targeted game. In particular, the Full PvP - Full Loot - No Quests approach is totally against the current trend of the mainstream MMORPG market.
However, DF is a shitty game too
So, as someone already said, "niche" != "shitty", but DF is both.
i just want to know why you didnt get a big bad warning from mmorpg.com for calling darkfall a shitty game. I called darkfall a shitty game and i got a warning not to attack other posters.....so i emailed them and said i didnt insult anyone so they gave me a warning for calling darkfall shitty.
i just want to know why you didnt get a big bad warning from mmorpg.com for calling darkfall a shitty game. I called darkfall a shitty game and i got a warning not to attack other posters.....so i emailed them and said i didnt insult anyone so they gave me a warning for calling darkfall shitty.
Perhaps you made your post during the time when the Darkfall forums wars were in full throttle, it was a time of many flame wars and derogatory posts against Darkfall were looked at in the same light that protesting against the current liberal/Obama administration is, that being they are considered "terrorist". At any rate the fervor over Darkfall has dide down quite a bit so maybe it's ok to refer to it as shitty hehe. Which for a game that costs almost $50 and almost $15/month...it is. So i would agree with the OP...and I am not basing my opinion off other people's opinions...I played the game for over a month and I share your's and the OP's opinion...it sucks.
Over the years I have occasionally seen EVE described as a niche game. To be quite honest though, since the release of Darkfail, it is a word used daily to describe Darkfail. Since it cannot be denied that Darkfail is a shitty game, The equasion of the OP is most likley correct. Apart from the ability to fly boats, there is nothing that sepparates this game from any other.
On the other hand according to the definition of niche, I am not sure this game can be considered as such. There is no difficulty in this game. This has got to be the easiest game ever to play since WoW. Non combat plays like an asian grinder and combat is left clicking and running in circles. It does not get any easier than that folks.
Over the years I have occasionally seen EVE described as a niche game. To be quite honest though, since the release of Darkfail, it is a word used daily to describe Darkfail. Since it cannot be denied that Darkfail is a shitty game, The equasion of the OP is most likley correct. Apart from the ability to fly boats, there is nothing that sepparates this game from any other. On the other hand according to the definition of niche, I am not sure this game can be considered as such. There is no difficulty in this game. This has got to be the easiest game ever to play since WoW. Non combat plays like an asian grinder and combat is left clicking and running in circles. It does not get any easier than that folks.
To be honest, your reference to EVE as a niche game does bring up an issue...not all niche games are shitty. But it could be fairly accurately stated that niche games= not that popular because EVE does not have a super huge subscriber base. Although there are aspects of EVE that are really neat, for the most part is feels like a rather slow game and combat is decidedly unfun. But I would not go so far as to call EVE shitty.
Over the years I have occasionally seen EVE described as a niche game. To be quite honest though, since the release of Darkfail, it is a word used daily to describe Darkfail. Since it cannot be denied that Darkfail is a shitty game, The equasion of the OP is most likley correct. Apart from the ability to fly boats, there is nothing that sepparates this game from any other. On the other hand according to the definition of niche, I am not sure this game can be considered as such. There is no difficulty in this game. This has got to be the easiest game ever to play since WoW. Non combat plays like an asian grinder and combat is left clicking and running in circles. It does not get any easier than that folks.
To be honest, your reference to EVE as a niche game does bring up an issue...not all niche games are shitty. But it could be fairly accurately stated that niche games= not that popular because EVE does not have a super huge subscriber base. Although there are aspects of EVE that are really neat, for the most part is feels like a rather slow game and combat is decidedly unfun. But I would not go so far as to call EVE shitty.
I agree with what you are saying. My intention was not to imply that EVE is a shitty game. I think it is well done. I was refering to Darkfall only, as the term niche is thrown arround in excess when describing this particular game. re reading what i posted I obviously did not make this clear enough. in other words on a scale of 1-10 I have heard EVE described as niche 1 time as opposed to Darkfall being a 10.
My point is if Darkfall is to be decribed so readilly as nice in an obvious attempt to account for and validate its shittyness, then the OP's equasion is correct.
I thought this was interesting. The word "Shitty" has been used in this thread 58 times so far. (I used find "shitty" on all 7 pages) The word shit was only used 4.
I wonder if that makes "shitty" a more popular term?
Anyway, Just some random useless information for you all, I thought it was interesting.
*Edit - count is now 61 - 5 because I used it 3 times on 1 and 1 on the other.
Word. I hope you'll agree to keep a running tally for us, as I've got a feeling this thread will be around for a long time.
Comments
before making posts like this; please, at least play darkfall.
can you look at the graphics in a pvp game, and ignore the awful animations of both characters and the background? i guess, if you're just looking at screenshots.
how're you enjoying not having to harvest because of your super advanced henchmen AI? how're you enjoying that player housing? how're you enjoying skilling up those pets you've tamed? how're you enjoying the revolutionary mob AI that is so advanced that it can simulate actual players? how's the non-repetitive, challenging, fun & exciting crafting going? what about those 300+ prestige classes? which ones of those are you training? how about those sieges where you can crouchwalk UNDER the fortress/city walls because they are placed so shittily that they don't even touch the ground? how about those ships with cannons TWICE the range of city towers? nothing like a tiny ship, bobbing on the ocean, with firepower that dwarfs that of a full-fledged city!!!!!! how about texting your friend's phone from inside the game (sms and all dontchaknow)? that revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize? you can use the trade system from the darkfall website! all those super advanced chat system innovations -- you enjoying all that revolutionary technology? how about invading an enemy city, logging out in their keep, logging back in, running invulnerable from the keep to the enemy bank and whipping out a cannon? you enjoying that?
yup, once they stop the "ai exploitation of players hiding in walls" then this game will be fucking amazing!
whether this game is truly defined as a "niche" or not, is truly a moot point - the game itself, is horridly implemented, boring IN EXTREMIS grinds, non-communicative dev team, and just broken and/or stupid game mechanics...
I played Darkfall for 2 months, with about 350 xFire in-game hours logged (played longer than that, don't sign in sometimes. So I'm not just talking shit.
And yes, yes. Nice work, you made a list of very old FAQ features (which were Aventurines high expectations whilst developing the game), along with very over-exagerated points (They never said 300+ prestiege classes, more like "12+". And they're still planned for the future I believe), and a few now fixed bugs (can't log in invulnerable anymore, and walking under city walls? Wasn't aware of that, and if so it's probably fixed. I do remember jumping up a corner of a wall and a mountain though, to get into a city. Their clan reported it and it got fixed.)
You also mentioned alot of website features that aren't in YET, yes I said yet. You see how much of the interface is actually in a browser? Well, I expect that soon, the games official site, will be integrated with the game. I imagine you'll be able to manage your clan and city bindstone from work, and talk to people who are in-game through the site. Aswell as access the forums from either in-game, or on an internet browser. There's probably more they'll do with it.
Also, the revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize that you mentioned, I imagine that this will also have something to do with game / website integration. Also, Aventurine called it revolutionary in their FAQ, but game-website integration, whilst was indeed very revolutionary when they wrote it, probably isn't new to us anymore. However, still a very amazing feature I believe.
Face it, they released the game early. You pay for a beta. It ofcourse has bugs, glitches etc just like any other beta would. And quite a number of the more advanced features are missing. But look, the core of the game is there. And what is there, works very well, and is very fun to play in my opinion. I don't care what anyone else says, I just absolutely love the stuff you're capable of doing in the game, and just the general feel of the game, the gameplay. I love the politics and drama too, brawls between different Alliances, and sometimes internal brawls, with guilds within the alliance falling out with one another. - I act all serious in-game, for role-play sake. But really, I love it.
In my opinion, the PvP, Crafting, and traveling and exploring aspects are 100% spot on. PvE is broken, and the rest isn't implemented yet.
When I have the free time, I'm going to make a blog or something, that has stories of the shit we got up to in DF. It's just so fun, and I love the game. Each to his own.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
Lets compare df with a hot dog.
You ordered the msot expensive hot dog on the meny: chili dog with extra cheese and special bread.
But when the waiter brings it to you he tells you: sorry we dont have any bread so you'll have to eat that chiliy and cheese covered sausage with your hands. Oh and btw we didnt have any beans for the chili, so you'll get them in 1 or 2h
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
Darkfall is a niche game and a low quality product.
However, as others have pointed out, EVE is a niche game and is a high quality product.
So "niche game" does not automatically mean "shitty game".
before making posts like this; please, at least play darkfall.
can you look at the graphics in a pvp game, and ignore the awful animations of both characters and the background? i guess, if you're just looking at screenshots.
how're you enjoying not having to harvest because of your super advanced henchmen AI? how're you enjoying that player housing? how're you enjoying skilling up those pets you've tamed? how're you enjoying the revolutionary mob AI that is so advanced that it can simulate actual players? how's the non-repetitive, challenging, fun & exciting crafting going? what about those 300+ prestige classes? which ones of those are you training? how about those sieges where you can crouchwalk UNDER the fortress/city walls because they are placed so shittily that they don't even touch the ground? how about those ships with cannons TWICE the range of city towers? nothing like a tiny ship, bobbing on the ocean, with firepower that dwarfs that of a full-fledged city!!!!!! how about texting your friend's phone from inside the game (sms and all dontchaknow)? that revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize? you can use the trade system from the darkfall website! all those super advanced chat system innovations -- you enjoying all that revolutionary technology? how about invading an enemy city, logging out in their keep, logging back in, running invulnerable from the keep to the enemy bank and whipping out a cannon? you enjoying that?
yup, once they stop the "ai exploitation of players hiding in walls" then this game will be fucking amazing!
whether this game is truly defined as a "niche" or not, is truly a moot point - the game itself, is horridly implemented, boring IN EXTREMIS grinds, non-communicative dev team, and just broken and/or stupid game mechanics...
I played Darkfall for 2 months, with about 350 xFire in-game hours logged (played longer than that, don't sign in sometimes. So I'm not just talking shit.
And yes, yes. Nice work, you made a list of very old FAQ features (which were Aventurines high expectations whilst developing the game), along with very over-exagerated points (They never said 300+ prestiege classes, more like "12+". And they're still planned for the future I believe), and a few now fixed bugs (can't log in invulnerable anymore, and walking under city walls? Wasn't aware of that, and if so it's probably fixed. I do remember jumping up a corner of a wall and a mountain though, to get into a city. Their clan reported it and it got fixed.) <<< ok,. you're proving you have no idea what you're talking about... there were HUNDREDS OF PRESTIGE CLASSES. so, you're either lying, of you have no idea what you're talking about. OLD faq features? weird, some of those are STILL on the website.
we darkfall players are TIRED of people LYING about darkfall - troll elsewhere!
You also mentioned alot of website features that aren't in YET, yes I said yet. You see how much of the interface is actually in a browser? Well, I expect that soon, the games official site, will be integrated with the game. I imagine you'll be able to manage your clan and city bindstone from work, and talk to people who are in-game through the site. Aswell as access the forums from either in-game, or on an internet browser. There's probably more they'll do with it. <<features advertised as a part of the game, on the official game's site, run and managed and owned by the gaming company... that is illegal in the united states, we call that false advertising. ILLEGAL AS IN BREAKING THE LAW. consumers are protected against scams such as that in the USA.
Also, the revolutionary trade system which you don't have to be logged in to utilize that you mentioned, I imagine that this will also have something to do with game / website integration. Also, Aventurine called it revolutionary in their FAQ, but game-website integration, whilst was indeed very revolutionary when they wrote it, probably isn't new to us anymore. However, still a very amazing feature I believe. <<< it doesn't exist in darkfall, only in the lies that are in their website
Face it, they released the game early. You pay for a beta. It ofcourse has bugs, glitches etc just like any other beta would. << it's called beta testing. seriously, post in one of the several dozen threads IN THIS FORUM, that cover EVERY inaccurate statement you are making. we darkfall players are tired of this endless series of untruths.
And quite a number of the more advanced features are missing. But look, the core of the game is there. And what is there, works very well, and is very fun to play in my opinion. <<< have you missed the horrible game mechanics involved in sieging, which just i have posted today? you either don't play, or you are lying -- sieging is currently broken in horrible game breaking fashions.
I don't care what anyone else says, <<< SO STOP LYING. I, AS A DARKFALL PLAYER AM SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE LYING ABOUT THIS BLODY GAME.
I just absolutely love the stuff you're capable of doing in the game, and just the general feel of the game, the gameplay. I love the politics and drama too, brawls between different Alliances, and sometimes internal brawls, with guilds within the alliance falling out with one another. - I act all serious in-game, for role-play sake. But really, I love it.
In my opinion, the PvP, Crafting, and traveling and exploring aspects are 100% spot on. PvE is broken, and the rest isn't implemented yet.
When I have the free time, I'm going to make a blog or something, that has stories of the shit we got up to in DF. It's just so fun, and I love the game. Each to his own.
seriously - whatever. put up accurate information in your postings, or go troll somewhere else. lies, presented as opinion, which contradict factual information ARE LIES.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Hey guys, thanks for keeping this thread civil, and for the many interesting replies [I'm sure there will be more]. I wish this forum software did not make quoting other posters so awkward, or else I would like to quote and reply to several in this post. But anyways.....
Yes, as someone said [as if it is a criticism? lol], this thread is about what it means to be a niche game, and more specifically how this applies to a game like Darkfail. Of course there are different definitions of what it means to be "niche", but as myself and several other posters in this thread have observed, the term has come to be used frequently by gamers and developers to try to spin a bad game, in other words they try to imply that it's not "bad" it's "special". Fanboys of Darkfail are among the most notorious for using the word in this way, but more and more when someone describes a game as "niche" you can just assume that it means the game is crap.
I have a hard time getting on board with the idea that developers are making their game for a specific small demographic of gamers ONLY. Do you really think the Darkfail developers, for example, were hoping to MAX their game at say 100,000 subs, do you really think they intentionally DESIGNED the game in order that this would be the maximum possible level of success that they were dreaming of. You really think they didn't have a vision of themselves building the new revolutionary game that would be a wild and crazy success with millions of subscribers and would change the face of MMOs? Nobody, not even the Darkfail devs, puts that much work into a project unless they have a big dream for it. I don't believe these theoretical game developers exist who are trying to design a game that will be "NOT FUN" for most people! It is in the nature of game developers that they want people to enjoy their game. I think it would be extremely rare to find a developer who does not believe [or hope] that most people would enjoy their game if those people took the time to "get into it". Never have I read any game developer interview or essay where the developer talks about how most people are too shit for their game to have any appeal and how they are only designing their game to be fun for the 1% of strange people out there. And certainly I have never seen or heard of that in an MMO context, it is a bit absurd imo to suggest that there are all these developers out there trying to design games that are "not fun" for most people and only have appeal for a small "niche" of bizarro types of humans.
This is why I think the word "niche" is being misused and for most gamers "niche" has just become a polite way of saying a game is shitty, while for developers it has become a way to spin their marketing a little bit when the project does not turn out as good as they had hoped when they started making it.
As I wrote before, if the term is used in a more proper or traditional way, a niche game is something like tournament mahjong. It might be the best mahjong game ever made, but the truth is most people just don't like to play mahjong that much, while some people are addicted to it. This is a game that has a profound appeal to an extremely specific customer base and not much theoretical appeal to anyone else. I don't believe the same concept applies easily to any MMO, and there is no MMO out there currently that could really be considered "niche" imo, except when the term is used in a vague, imprecise way to indicate that the game is not as popular as WoW. IF WE IMAGINED A MMO THAT ACTUALLY FIT THE TRADITIONAL DEFINITION OF "NICHE" IT WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE A HARDCORE PORN S&M MMO. EVEN A HARDCORE PORN MMO WOULD NOT REALLY BE NICHE AS IT HAS THEORETICAL APPEAL
TO MOST PEOPLE, BUT IF IT IS FOCUSED ON S&M THEN THIS IS "NICHE". I don't believe there is any mmo that exists today that is analogous to that, but if there was I and the vast majority of mmo gamers would likely not have heard of it, because by [traditional] definition a niche product is something that most people outside the niche would not be aware of.
AND THAT BRINGS ME TO THE FINAL POINT. Why do people insist on calling EVE a "niche" game? Can you show any evidence that the developers consider or considered it to be "niche"? I really feel when applied to a game like EVE the word "niche" is a misnomer, and it shows how much the meaning of the word has become watered down by fanboys and developers trying to spin their game in a positive way by applying the word "niche" to every game out there that most people would think wasn't a very good game.
Of course whether something is "niche" or not, is ultimately relative. But more and more among mmo gamers it is my observation that the term is used to describe games that are shitty, and this is annoying imo.
The one and only.
Usually people refer as "niche" things that are not mainstream (specially in the US). If you do not have more than 1M subs, you are niche. If you are a Sci-Fi game not sporting some huge license, like SW or ST, then you are niche.
Of course, those are wrong definitions. There are niche games out there, like bass fishing, online pool games, dog simulators and such. They can be perfectly fun for their fans, but do not appeal to the masses, and usually are done with that in mind.
So, "niche" became the piece of resistance of people who likes bad/hugely impopular games. DFO is certainly in this category, now. It's something like the "indie developer" thing, just a slippery term trying to give something a positive spin.
DFO certainly wasn't developed with "niche" in mind. Aventurine (and Tasos, mainly) wanted a huge, open-PVP free for all that would be the latest Internet craze. At least, that's what transpires when you read their announceements/info. However, we all know that things went south faster than birds of passage, and now the fans use "niche" as a last resort, trying to play the "too h4rdc0r3 for joo, n0ob" card, as some sort of explanation of why the game is not bustling. It's certainly easier than facing the fact that people are spending good money on an unfinished product, that they were deceived brutally and shamefully, and that the game is parsecs away from what was hailed as the gamer's Grail.
Denial is part of the human nature, no problem in that. I'm sure that are people who like the game, despite of itself. However, that does not magically erase the abysmal lunch and first monthes of one of the most overhyped and inflated things since the Internet itself.
isn't everything, in the big scheme of things - a niche?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niche_market
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
QFT
Though I get the impression EVE is more of the exception rather than the rule. Just don't see AV living up to anything near CCP genius. Though admittedly CCP have done some bad things... AV have been stinkingly awful with the first few months.
"Niche game" != "Shitty game", and generally "Niche" != "Difficult".
TBH, aside from "particular" games/films/music with some kind of "cult following", the "niche" term is often used when talking about something which requires a great deal of attention/time/culture to be enjoyed. For example, a fucking difficult game with a fucking steep difficulty curve could become "niche" even if it was perfect in every detail.
That is the reason why 99% of the games today are fucking stupid cake easy at "normal" difficulty settings and start to get challenging in the "ZOMGWTFHARDEST" difficulty level. nother thing that may qualify a game as "niche" is the presence of some design choices which openly go against the "standard" set in a genre. For example, turn-based strategic games are niche.
Now, if we think about Darkfall, we have some good reasons to define it a niche-targeted game. In particular, the Full PvP - Full Loot - No Quests approach is totally against the current trend of the mainstream MMORPG market.
However, DF is a shitty game too
So, as someone already said, "niche" != "shitty", but DF is both.
i just want to know why you didnt get a big bad warning from mmorpg.com for calling darkfall a shitty game. I called darkfall a shitty game and i got a warning not to attack other posters.....so i emailed them and said i didnt insult anyone so they gave me a warning for calling darkfall shitty.
Perhaps you made your post during the time when the Darkfall forums wars were in full throttle, it was a time of many flame wars and derogatory posts against Darkfall were looked at in the same light that protesting against the current liberal/Obama administration is, that being they are considered "terrorist". At any rate the fervor over Darkfall has dide down quite a bit so maybe it's ok to refer to it as shitty hehe. Which for a game that costs almost $50 and almost $15/month...it is. So i would agree with the OP...and I am not basing my opinion off other people's opinions...I played the game for over a month and I share your's and the OP's opinion...it sucks.
Over the years I have occasionally seen EVE described as a niche game. To be quite honest though, since the release of Darkfail, it is a word used daily to describe Darkfail. Since it cannot be denied that Darkfail is a shitty game, The equasion of the OP is most likley correct. Apart from the ability to fly boats, there is nothing that sepparates this game from any other.
On the other hand according to the definition of niche, I am not sure this game can be considered as such. There is no difficulty in this game. This has got to be the easiest game ever to play since WoW. Non combat plays like an asian grinder and combat is left clicking and running in circles. It does not get any easier than that folks.
To be honest, your reference to EVE as a niche game does bring up an issue...not all niche games are shitty. But it could be fairly accurately stated that niche games= not that popular because EVE does not have a super huge subscriber base. Although there are aspects of EVE that are really neat, for the most part is feels like a rather slow game and combat is decidedly unfun. But I would not go so far as to call EVE shitty.
ORLY
I thought this was interesting.
The word "Shitty" has been used in this thread 58 times so far. (I used find "shitty" on all 7 pages)
The word shit was only used 4.
I wonder if that makes "shitty" a more popular term?
Anyway, Just some random useless information for you all, I thought it was interesting.
*Edit - count is now 61 - 5 because I used it 3 times on 1 and 1 on the other.
To be honest, your reference to EVE as a niche game does bring up an issue...not all niche games are shitty. But it could be fairly accurately stated that niche games= not that popular because EVE does not have a super huge subscriber base. Although there are aspects of EVE that are really neat, for the most part is feels like a rather slow game and combat is decidedly unfun. But I would not go so far as to call EVE shitty.
I agree with what you are saying. My intention was not to imply that EVE is a shitty game. I think it is well done. I was refering to Darkfall only, as the term niche is thrown arround in excess when describing this particular game. re reading what i posted I obviously did not make this clear enough. in other words on a scale of 1-10 I have heard EVE described as niche 1 time as opposed to Darkfall being a 10.
My point is if Darkfall is to be decribed so readilly as nice in an obvious attempt to account for and validate its shittyness, then the OP's equasion is correct.
Word. I hope you'll agree to keep a running tally for us, as I've got a feeling this thread will be around for a long time.
The one and only.