Originally posted by Lobotomist Many allready stated. This should be just KOTOR 3. Singleplayer game. Instead renting (subscribing) to play singleplayer game , in MMO guise
Still, since its made by Bioware. Its likely to be good. Although they have been slipping ever since they joined EA
They haven't released a single game since they joined EA (except that throwaway sonic rpg on the DS of all things) so what are you basing your "slipping" comment on? The koolaid?
Isn't it great to know that the OP here has used his infinite wisdom to define what an MMO is for the rest of us. Now it's time for us all to fall in line!
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Isn't it great to know that the OP here has used his infinite wisdom to define what an MMO is for the rest of us. Now it's time for us all to fall in line!
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
You're joking, right? It isn't like you tell people your story in any RPG. Certainly not a story that relates to quests or anything like that. SW: TOR at least gives you the ability to make meaningful decisions that impact your game story. So you can tell a friend about how you convinced the captain to go along with the attack, used words to convince a town to rise up against Sith forces, made peace between two groups of people, etc, etc (only one of those examples is from a demo, but they are all reasonable possibilities). Your friend, on the other hand, might have done the same quests, largely, but what their decisions were could be very, very different. Now THAT'S something meaningful to talk about. I don't see how you can possibly say that's the exact same story.
Beyond that, what friends you have and when and how you help them on quests and such is going to play out quite differently for each person, so if you want to be creative and make a more unique story it isn't going to be too hard to stand out as much as any other RPG. Just in TOR you'll actually be able to make decisions when you go to do a quest, and hence feel more immersed in the story than in any other MMORPG that is out there (as far as I know).
Now, I'll say this, if there was one more element that could be added in to all that, I'd want it to be that not just dialogue options determined what happened in a story. I'd want you to also be able to ACT and change things. If a bad guy is getting away, then if you are gutsy/crazy enough, maybe you can run by his guards and jump onto his ship before it takes off and stop him inflight, whereas a slower person would have to deal with the fact he got away. Something like that would compliment the dialogue options quite nicely.
In any case, actually having decisions that matter is a huge plus, not a minus at all. Things won't be perfect (I'm sure), but it's a big step in the right direction.
I personally am as interested as the OP - and other posters in this thread - as how groups who must arrive at ONE decision to move on will deal with MULTIPLE OPINIONS since each opinon affects the indiviual player.
I guess deciding which group you are in will also affect your character. Which is as it should be.
Let's assume everything you say is accurate, and you kill the Captain, your friend doesn't, and as part of YOUR storyline the Captain's family comes after you while you happen to be hanging out with your friend and he helps you kill them. These are all possible solutions:
1. It has no effect on his "faction" because it's your story, not his. For purposes of this event, your friend is not "the guy who let the captain live", he's just some unidentified friend of the "guy who killed the captain" and the captain's faction mates don't know to hate him more because they don't know who he is.
2. The revenge battle has no effect on anyone's "faction" because you've killed everybody that could possibly want to seek revenge.
3. Your friend's presence affects whether they decide to attack you (e.g. your "faction" is averaged out to determine the sequence of events). If your friend has already completed the encounter, it won't be triggered until he's not grouped with you.
4. Your friend's faction will be harmed by the fight, even if he's already done it, but it will affect his storyline going forward. Guilt by association. This is pretty much would happen in any other MMO where your faction determines whether an NPC will attack you or not.
Sure, there will inevitably be story inconsistencies or repetition, but how is this any worse than the simple fact in most other MMOs where you can kill the same boss over and over again, or help your friend complete a quest you've already done?
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Originally posted by rikilii Let's assume everything you say is accurate, and you kill the Captain, your friend doesn't, and as part of YOUR storyline the Captain's family comes after you while you happen to be hanging out with your friend and he helps you kill them. These are all possible solutions:
Or his friend is unable to help him unless his friend wants to trash his faction. Which was basically what the OP listed originally. This is reasonable. Ie, your friend is playing a sith and you are a jedi. Guess what, that jedi shouldn't be helping the sith. yeah, they may be friends IRL, but in game, by their very actions, they are at opposite ends. They shouldn't be grouping in the first place. If they are grouped, well don't be surprised if the world doesn't take them at their word, the sith isn't a true sith, and the jedi isn't a true jedi.
Isn't it great to know that the OP here has used his infinite wisdom to define what an MMO is for the rest of us. Now it's time for us all to fall in line!
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
You're joking, right? It isn't like you tell people your story in any RPG. Certainly not a story that relates to quests or anything like that. SW: TOR at least gives you the ability to make meaningful decisions that impact your game story. So you can tell a friend about how you convinced the captain to go along with the attack, used words to convince a town to rise up against Sith forces, made peace between two groups of people, etc, etc (only one of those examples is from a demo, but they are all reasonable possibilities). Your friend, on the other hand, might have done the same quests, largely, but what their decisions were could be very, very different. Now THAT'S something meaningful to talk about. I don't see how you can possibly say that's the exact same story.
Beyond that, what friends you have and when and how you help them on quests and such is going to play out quite differently for each person, so if you want to be creative and make a more unique story it isn't going to be too hard to stand out as much as any other RPG. Just in TOR you'll actually be able to make decisions when you go to do a quest, and hence feel more immersed in the story than in any other MMORPG that is out there (as far as I know).
Now, I'll say this, if there was one more element that could be added in to all that, I'd want it to be that not just dialogue options determined what happened in a story. I'd want you to also be able to ACT and change things. If a bad guy is getting away, then if you are gutsy/crazy enough, maybe you can run by his guards and jump onto his ship before it takes off and stop him inflight, whereas a slower person would have to deal with the fact he got away. Something like that would compliment the dialogue options quite nicely.
In any case, actually having decisions that matter is a huge plus, not a minus at all. Things won't be perfect (I'm sure), but it's a big step in the right direction.
I have no doubt that TOR will spin a good yarn, where I do have doubt is that other people will want to hear about it. As I discussed above a great individual story is part of any RPG and I expect that in this game. My fear is that they'll not provide us with the elements that make people want to listen to our story.
Edit: This is not just an RPG they are making it's an MMORPG. What a MMORPG comes down to is allowing players the ability to express themselves and the ability to generate another players desire to watch or participate in that expression.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Isn't it great to know that the OP here has used his infinite wisdom to define what an MMO is for the rest of us. Now it's time for us all to fall in line!
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
You're joking, right? It isn't like you tell people your story in any RPG. Certainly not a story that relates to quests or anything like that. SW: TOR at least gives you the ability to make meaningful decisions that impact your game story. So you can tell a friend about how you convinced the captain to go along with the attack, used words to convince a town to rise up against Sith forces, made peace between two groups of people, etc, etc (only one of those examples is from a demo, but they are all reasonable possibilities). Your friend, on the other hand, might have done the same quests, largely, but what their decisions were could be very, very different. Now THAT'S something meaningful to talk about. I don't see how you can possibly say that's the exact same story.
Beyond that, what friends you have and when and how you help them on quests and such is going to play out quite differently for each person, so if you want to be creative and make a more unique story it isn't going to be too hard to stand out as much as any other RPG. Just in TOR you'll actually be able to make decisions when you go to do a quest, and hence feel more immersed in the story than in any other MMORPG that is out there (as far as I know).
Now, I'll say this, if there was one more element that could be added in to all that, I'd want it to be that not just dialogue options determined what happened in a story. I'd want you to also be able to ACT and change things. If a bad guy is getting away, then if you are gutsy/crazy enough, maybe you can run by his guards and jump onto his ship before it takes off and stop him inflight, whereas a slower person would have to deal with the fact he got away. Something like that would compliment the dialogue options quite nicely.
In any case, actually having decisions that matter is a huge plus, not a minus at all. Things won't be perfect (I'm sure), but it's a big step in the right direction.
I have no doubt that TOR will spin a good yarn, where I do have doubt is that other people will want to hear about it. As I discussed above a great individual story is part of any RPG and I expect that in this game. My fear is that they'll not provide us with the elements that make people want to listen to our story.
Edit: This is not just an RPG they are making it's an MMORPG. What a MMORPG comes down to is allowing players the ability to express themselves and the ability to generate another players desire to watch or participate in that expression.
So what? The argument here is that it is no different than ANY OTHER MMO in this aspect? That's the worst-case scenerio, right?
I actually think you'll have people who do talk about how they handled quests and such, since you can actually do them in multiple ways now. That's different from other MMOs, and that's part of your character's personal story and it seems reasonable to think that people would be interested in how others handled a particular quest with multiple options. You'll have the standard "in this fight I did X and it was awesome" bits too, that every MMO has. Now, like I said, I hope all story possibilities aren't covered by dialogue choices, but also in part by action. We'll have to see how that goes (but it would be another thing to talk to your friends about). In any case, all the things one talks about in MMOs today will still be in TOR, but there will also be other stuff.
So what? The argument here is that it is no different than ANY OTHER MMO in this aspect? That's the worst-case scenerio, right?
I actually think you'll have people who do talk about how they handled quests and such, since you can actually do them in multiple ways now. That's different from other MMOs, and that's part of your character's personal story and it seems reasonable to think that people would be interested in how others handled a particular quest with multiple options. You'll have the standard "in this fight I did X and it was awesome" bits too, that every MMO has. Now, like I said, I hope all story possibilities aren't covered by dialogue choices, but also in part by action. We'll have to see how that goes (but it would be another thing to talk to your friends about). In any case, all the things one talks about in MMOs today will still be in TOR, but there will also be other stuff.
So what?!?!?!?? So once again we are getting a RPG masquerading as a MMORPG so that a gaming company can pick our pockets monthly and with every successive release of these damn MMORPGs fewer people are questioning what makes these bloody games massively multiplayer. Save your customers money and just make a RPG with a dungeon mod toolkit an allow players to build and host their own multiplayer events.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Originally posted by Wickersham I have no doubt that TOR will spin a good yarn, where I do have doubt is that other people will want to hear about it. As I discussed above a great individual story is part of any RPG and I expect that in this game. My fear is that they'll not provide us with the elements that make people want to listen to our story. Edit: This is not just an RPG they are making it's an MMORPG. What a MMORPG comes down to is allowing players the ability to express themselves and the ability to generate another players desire to watch or participate in that expression.
I think you're confusing MMORPG with MySpace.
They demonstrated at E3 that multiple players will be able to cooperate/participate in the story aspect of the game. Your nerdrage is unfounded.
Originally posted by wootin ^^QFT save for one point. Most of the clonage out there, including WoW, aren't MMORPGs either. Because they're not RPGs. You don't "play a character in a story along with many other people", you run a build through missions to gain levels and loot. There's no character-driven decisions that affect the storyline, there's fixed missions and ability-driven decisions made because of your build's defensive and offensive abilities. You could have a preprogrammed robot MMO character choosing missions and actions to maximize it's gains and minimize it's risks and you couldn't tell the difference from the gameplay of most so-called "MMORPG"s. BioWare is making us a TRUE MMORPG - we will play characters in a story, along with lots of other people at the same time. Our decisions will CHANGE THE STORY that we experience as we play further. That my friends, makes SWTOR the very first true MMORPG ever created. I can't wait.
Let me address the OP. I do understand your concerns and do think they are valid. Guildwars had the same thing. Story driven and choices you made affected you later down the line. Yet having a single player in your party that made choices different then you ended up spoiling the immersion. I enjoyed the story but the immersion was gone when it came to grouping.
Now for the above quote. While I dont consider Guildwars as an MMO (Even though it does fit the criteria of an MMO) it has already done the story line bit so no, SWTOR wouldnt be the first. Heck even back in EQ1 days, it did have a story (a very rich lore if you actually spent the time and read it) and some decisions you made in the game did have drastic changes to peoples chars (The paladin sword quest for example).
As for your RPG statement. All that you quoted are actually MMORPG's because RPG stands for Role Playing Game. It was left up to the players to actually, you know, Role Play, but we know how that turned out. SWTOR is not going to be any different. A lot of people will play the game to get the best equipment or the most richs and wont role play a bit. I think SWTOR will probably be a fun game and I will get it, but dont delude yourself into thinking that it is the first true MMORPG, that simply wont be the case.
I have to disagree, claiming a car is a bus because both carry people on roads doesn't make it so. Just because a bunch of suits who don't understand the definition of a word (heck, most of them don't even understand why we play lol) decided to brand their product to hook in a specific market (us) doesn't change the reality of what their employees created. There hasn't been a single real MMORPG (that I'm aware of) ever.
Why is this? Because a Role Playing Game is about deciding a character's actions within a story. (Not about making your own character's story within an environment - that's sandbox MMO, and they aren't true RPGs either - they need their own name for what they do). It's the same whether the delivery platform is a single-player game, a multiplayer game or a pen'n paper D&D group in someone's basement.
However, MMOs by definition want the longest lifespan possible so that they can put as much ROI as possible on the investor's prospectus. So it is absolutely crazy for any MMO producer to think of creating a story, because said story must END SOMETIME, and that's bad for the ol' prospectus. So their answer is smoke and mirror "stories" such as quest chains and expansion packs.
That's why I say BioWare is making the very first true MMORPG ever. Their story ENDS when you finish it, just like every single-player RPG story ends, and every DnD campaign ends.
While it's confirmed that your character's actions affect the story that you play through, I do want to hear whether our character's actions will affect the actual ending of the story (a la Deus X), because if it doesn't, then BioWare will fall short in that regard.
Yep, the story ends till the next update or expansion. Then you have some of the other MMO activities (crafting, PvP, dungeon crawls, faction grinding .... etch) to keep your max level occupied or even better, you roll up another character and experience a completely different story. That's the beauty of having a unique story per class. Or you could even roll up the same class and try a different path just to see how that story unfolds.
The best part of this game is that you are NOT dependent on others to play, but the option for grouping is there. This gives you the best of both worlds and guarantees that you can experience 100% of the game no matter your play style. Assuming of course that whatever niche crafting and raiding they implement is negligible and doesn't make you feel left out.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I've read and watched many interviews and post by Bioware, and this game is nothing more then KOTOR 3 + internet.. The storyline choice bologna mixed in with online interaction makes things impossible, or illogical.. I"ve read and heard how one starting quest is "killing the captain" or not to kill him, and how those type of choices determine your character as you progress thru what I call a single player RPG.. Let me give you a simple example.. I killed the captain, however my friend did not early on in the game.. I get to a point where a relative or friend of the captain seeks REVENGE upon me.. Does this mean my friend is unable to help me? Afterall, he's friendly with the capt's friends and family.. whereas I'm hated.. If my friend helps me in the fight, he then should ALSO become hated by the friends and family as well.. SO MUCH about making choices early on? OR will my confrontation with the family be instanced where my friend cant' come with me.. OR.. even worse.. my friend does help me, yet takes NO faction hit in killing the capt's friend or family.. Meaning that Bioware conviently IGNORES the storyline in sake of grouping with no recource.. Interesting .. Personally, I see this is nothing more then RENTING KoTOR 3 monthly to play multiple toons with a lil online mmo tossed in to keep you guessing if it's a mmo or not.. However I think I might re-label it as SWG 2.. Another Star Wars blunder where the game doesn't meet expectations of what the market wants.. I'm still trying to figure out how a person that was LEAD screw up at SOE-Austin (aka SWG) got the Co-GM spot at Bioware.. I guess it's all about the almighty dollar.. Should we make a KoTOR 3 and charge $59.95 that can be played on the PC, Xbox and PS3? or should we make the game a lil bigger, add in some mmo stuff (but not much) and charge the same $59.95 plus $14.95 a MONTH every month after.. hmmmmm Lets go with the extended money game.. LOL I suspect this game fails within 2 years after release, but who cares..
LOL
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
You know I don't doubt the game will be a lot of fun to play, but I agree, based on info so far it sounds like a singleplayer rpg with a subscription model grafted onto it.
Because of that and because of Lucas, this game is defintiely a try-before-you-buy kinda game.
Originally posted by Wickersham I have no doubt that TOR will spin a good yarn, where I do have doubt is that other people will want to hear about it. As I discussed above a great individual story is part of any RPG and I expect that in this game. My fear is that they'll not provide us with the elements that make people want to listen to our story. Edit: This is not just an RPG they are making it's an MMORPG. What a MMORPG comes down to is allowing players the ability to express themselves and the ability to generate another players desire to watch or participate in that expression.
I think you're confusing MMORPG with MySpace.
They demonstrated at E3 that multiple players will be able to cooperate/participate in the story aspect of the game. Your nerdrage is unfounded.
We mock what we don't understand.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
So what? The argument here is that it is no different than ANY OTHER MMO in this aspect? That's the worst-case scenerio, right?
I actually think you'll have people who do talk about how they handled quests and such, since you can actually do them in multiple ways now. That's different from other MMOs, and that's part of your character's personal story and it seems reasonable to think that people would be interested in how others handled a particular quest with multiple options. You'll have the standard "in this fight I did X and it was awesome" bits too, that every MMO has. Now, like I said, I hope all story possibilities aren't covered by dialogue choices, but also in part by action. We'll have to see how that goes (but it would be another thing to talk to your friends about). In any case, all the things one talks about in MMOs today will still be in TOR, but there will also be other stuff.
So what?!?!?!?? So once again we are getting a RPG masquerading as a MMORPG so that a gaming company can pick our pockets monthly and with every successive release of these damn MMORPGs fewer people are questioning what makes these bloody games massively multiplayer. Save your customers money and just make a RPG with a dungeon mod toolkit an allow players to build and host their own multiplayer events.
Which games do you consider to be MMORPGs?
The 'story' in TOR is not much different than the quest system in WoW, EQ2, LotRO, etc. What makes a game massively multiplayer is the potential to play the game along side tens to hundreds to thousands of other players. According to the developers, TOR is going to allow that, which will make it fit the definition. It will have a RPG style character progression system and allow player X to roleplay as Jim Dandy, Republic Trooper, and player Y to roleplay as Bill Gruffington, Sith aligned Bounty Hunter, which makes it fit the definition of an RPG. It is going to have quests, like every other MMO, but they intend to add branches to the quest chains, along with a ton of words.
Just because I have to kill 10 fozzle A's and you have to kill 15 fozzle B's doesn't mean we cant group together and help each other out with our respective massivley worded quests, or 'story' chapter. The 'story' system isn't going to make any more difference than me having to kill 10 boars and you having to kill 10 wolves would in any other MMORPG.
From all we know so far, TOR is going to be a typical themepark MMORPG with more words involved in quests and quests that branch out, instead of being linear. We'll be running FedEx quests, and killing the TOR equivelent of 10 rats (according to the developers, those 10 rats are going to be much larger in stature, and be some worm looking thing, and as such much more 'HEROIC!!!!1112' somehow, so I also assume the FedEx quests will involve us taking the 'MAJOR IMPORTANT THINGAMAJIG OF UBER IMPORTANCE!' to grandma's house, instead of a basket of food and as such fall in line with all the 'HEROIC!!!!1112' blather).
The folks from BioWare claim to be making an MMORPG, the folks at LEC claim BioWare is making an MMORPG, and BioWare has licensed an engine that is specifically intended to be used to make MMORPGs. BioWare also opened a studio in Austin and hired a bunch of folks who have been involved in making MMORPGs to build TOR. That would seem to be a watse of time, resources, and effort if they are making something other than an MMORPG.
Alexis here, just your average friendly gamer girl with a penchant for wordy yet eloquent replies. Making my splash debut on MMORPG.com in a thread that is based on a jest poll.....Truly one must wonder at my sanity. But here goes. Since it applied here, I reposted this in this thread as well.
Bioware is trying something new, and we, as gamers, have grown so accustomed to our acronyms and definitions that we are nervous at the thought of true innovation. Often times it is this mentality, the "you can't break this mould or else bad things are destined to come your way", that splits our communities in half. Nearly as much as our worst debates on time constraints, gear obtainment value, to kill or not to kill another player and all around "this is greater than that" banter.
But why is this the case? Why are we, as gamers afraid of innovation in our genres? Why is the threat of "watering down the heart of the genre" such a concern.....to me, it is not. But to many of my fellows it stems from the idea that if a game deviates too far from the core of its genre and then is labeled as something it's not it opens the door for other games of a similar milieu to flood in. Valid concerns all. And sadly something we are already seeing in the MMO genre, with these first person shooter 24 people to a zone max "MMO-lites"..... So why is Bioware different, and how?
They tell amazing stories.
Bioware has yet to fail me, all of their games, and most of their game derivatives or partnership projects have been among my favorite game experiences. And for me it all began (yea I know I was a late BW fan) with Neverwinter Nights. It was what tore me and my friends away from our multiyear Diablo 2 addiction. Once I had tasted that...I checked out more things with their hand on it or near it. From Baldur's Gate to Planescape: Torment (their engine and a couple of their designers worked on it) to KoToR and then ME. They have never failed to astound me at their storytelling expertise.
But will this, this grandiose storytelling, amazing characterization and full voice over, work in my precious MMO genre? Like others I too have my concerns, though, I cannot and will not let them rule me.
You see these amazing RPG tools, the stories, the voices, the characterization, is one thing I could never fulfill in my MMO gaming. A closet addiction I have had since EQ1... For these things I had always to go elsewhere. Ever having to separate these two genres I so enjoyed.
And now they are to be married together in one game, done by a company that has yet to fail me.
Fears or not. I look forward to SW:TOR and to seeing how and if Bioware can accomplish the marriage of these two genres in a single game. Will this game prove to be MMORPG or SPORPG, the jury is out on this, but Bioware promised a fully functioning MMO, they have said this game will possess all the traits of an MMO. Will the single player like aspects of this game override the massive feel?
I urge you my fellow gamers, to try and let time tell on this one, rather than caving to your fears about a single player online role playing game. I have yet to be disappointed by this development team, and if they can maintain the massive feel, and add these elements to the game, then I say they may become the new golden standard in the genre.
So what? The argument here is that it is no different than ANY OTHER MMO in this aspect? That's the worst-case scenerio, right?
I actually think you'll have people who do talk about how they handled quests and such, since you can actually do them in multiple ways now. That's different from other MMOs, and that's part of your character's personal story and it seems reasonable to think that people would be interested in how others handled a particular quest with multiple options. You'll have the standard "in this fight I did X and it was awesome" bits too, that every MMO has. Now, like I said, I hope all story possibilities aren't covered by dialogue choices, but also in part by action. We'll have to see how that goes (but it would be another thing to talk to your friends about). In any case, all the things one talks about in MMOs today will still be in TOR, but there will also be other stuff.
So what?!?!?!?? So once again we are getting a RPG masquerading as a MMORPG so that a gaming company can pick our pockets monthly and with every successive release of these damn MMORPGs fewer people are questioning what makes these bloody games massively multiplayer. Save your customers money and just make a RPG with a dungeon mod toolkit an allow players to build and host their own multiplayer events.
Which games do you consider to be MMORPGs?
The 'story' in TOR is not much different than the quest system in WoW, EQ2, LotRO, etc. What makes a game massively multiplayer is the potential to play the game along side tens to hundreds to thousands of other players. According to the developers, TOR is going to allow that, which will make it fit the definition. It will have a RPG style character progression system and allow player X to roleplay as Jim Dandy, Republic Trooper, and player Y to roleplay as Bill Gruffington, Sith aligned Bounty Hunter, which makes it fit the definition of an RPG. It is going to have quests, like every other MMO, but they intend to add branches to the quest chains, along with a ton of words.
Just because I have to kill 10 fozzle A's and you have to kill 15 fozzle B's doesn't mean we cant group together and help each other out with our respective massivley worded quests, or 'story' chapter. The 'story' system isn't going to make any more difference than me having to kill 10 boars and you having to kill 10 wolves would in any other MMORPG.
From all we know so far, TOR is going to be a typical themepark MMORPG with more words involved in quests and quests that branch out, instead of being linear. We'll be running FedEx quests, and killing the TOR equivelent of 10 rats (according to the developers, those 10 rats are going to be much larger in stature, and be some worm looking thing, and as such much more 'HEROIC!!!!1112' somehow, so I also assume the FedEx quests will involve us taking the 'MAJOR IMPORTANT THINGAMAJIG OF UBER IMPORTANCE!' to grandma's house, instead of a basket of food and as such fall in line with all the 'HEROIC!!!!1112' blather).
The folks from BioWare claim to be making an MMORPG, the folks at LEC claim BioWare is making an MMORPG, and BioWare has licensed an engine that is specifically intended to be used to make MMORPGs. BioWare also opened a studio in Austin and hired a bunch of folks who have been involved in making MMORPGs to build TOR. That would seem to be a watse of time, resources, and effort if they are making something other than an MMORPG.
I consider early UO, early SWG, and EvE to be the best examples of a MMORPG.
When determining what makes a MMORPG ask yourself these 2 questions:
Can I replace the other players with NPCs and have the same game experience?
Can the multiplayer parts of this game be handled in the same way as Diablo 2 and Battle.net?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I'll throw out one more bone for the naysayers (and if this has been brought up, I apologize). What does MMO stand for? Massively Multiplayer Online If it has the potential to host large amounts of players online at once playing the same game, then regardless of what anyone thinks, it meets the requirements of those three words, regardless of gameplay and features. But, and it gets better, as long as it is an RPG, then we get to say it is an MMORPG, again meeting the requirements for all involved terms. Learn it, live it, love it.
That is exactly the problem.. This game is just a spin of KOTOR.. it will be heavily instanced or phased, which means most of what you do will NOT involved others.. Incase you are not aware of.. phasing has been done by other games and IMO, it sucks.. Phasing is very very ANTI social (mmo).. It locks people out of grouping.. Is this what you want from a MMO? The only people you can group with are those in the same TIME frame of the phase? NOT I..
^^QFT save for one point. Most of the clonage out there, including WoW, aren't MMORPGs either. Because they're not RPGs. You don't "play a character in a story along with many other people", you run a build through missions to gain levels and loot. There's no character-driven decisions that affect the storyline, there's fixed missions and ability-driven decisions made because of your build's defensive and offensive abilities. You could have a preprogrammed robot MMO character choosing missions and actions to maximize it's gains and minimize it's risks and you couldn't tell the difference from the gameplay of most so-called "MMORPG"s. BioWare is making us a TRUE MMORPG - we will play characters in a story, along with lots of other people at the same time. Our decisions will CHANGE THE STORY that we experience as we play further. That my friends, makes SWTOR the very first true MMORPG ever created. I can't wait.
I would have said, 'my friends' that it means SWTOR is the diametric opposite of an MMORPG.
You are forced to play not your own story but a story pre-chosen for you.
That story is selected when you choose your character.
That story does offer you a variety of choices but the choices, it seems, are only one of three kinds. GOOD, BAD and NEUTRAL. Those decisions do NOT CHANGE the story. They just take you through it. If you wish to leave the story, you can't.
This is not a voyage of exploration into new landscapes and new varieties of experience - such as even a game like WoW is. Instead, fromn the details received so far, SWTOR is a game on rails where you can't leave the shuttle bus.
And of course complete lack of story like every mmo out there allows you to make up whatever story for your character you want... but who cares??? You didn't get to experience this story... if you want to make your own story go write a book.
Well, that's the whole issue about the game, isn't it?
Is Bioware's idea of making 'Story' the centre of their game a slam-dunk win for TOR? Or a gigantic misjudgement that means limited playability?
Excellent point Hubert..
It does limit play.. You have to follow Bioware's PREDETERMINED path in the game.. Granted you have at times a choice to go bad or good.. but even the choices are predetermined.. Will the game have a good story that limits "MY" story? Probably, but then I don't RENT books from the library, Especially the same book month after month..
^^QFT save for one point. Most of the clonage out there, including WoW, aren't MMORPGs either. Because they're not RPGs. You don't "play a character in a story along with many other people", you run a build through missions to gain levels and loot. There's no character-driven decisions that affect the storyline, there's fixed missions and ability-driven decisions made because of your build's defensive and offensive abilities. You could have a preprogrammed robot MMO character choosing missions and actions to maximize it's gains and minimize it's risks and you couldn't tell the difference from the gameplay of most so-called "MMORPG"s. BioWare is making us a TRUE MMORPG - we will play characters in a story, along with lots of other people at the same time. Our decisions will CHANGE THE STORY that we experience as we play further. That my friends, makes SWTOR the very first true MMORPG ever created. I can't wait.
I would have said, 'my friends' that it means SWTOR is the diametric opposite of an MMORPG.
You are forced to play not your own story but a story pre-chosen for you.
That story is selected when you choose your character.
That story does offer you a variety of choices but the choices, it seems, are only one of three kinds. GOOD, BAD and NEUTRAL. Those decisions do NOT CHANGE the story. They just take you through it. If you wish to leave the story, you can't.
This is not a voyage of exploration into new landscapes and new varieties of experience - such as even a game like WoW is. Instead, fromn the details received so far, SWTOR is a game on rails where you can't leave the shuttle bus.
And of course complete lack of story like every mmo out there allows you to make up whatever story for your character you want... but who cares??? You didn't get to experience this story... if you want to make your own story go write a book.
Well, that's the whole issue about the game, isn't it?
Is Bioware's idea of making 'Story' the centre of their game a slam-dunk win for TOR? Or a gigantic misjudgement that means limited playability?
Excellent point Hubert..
It does limit play.. You have to follow Bioware's PREDETERMINED path in the game.. Granted you have at times a choice to go bad or good.. but even the choices are predetermined.. Will the game have a good story that limits "MY" story? Probably, but then I don't RENT books from the library, Especially the same book month after month..
You do realize that every game ever made has a pre-determined path, right? You might get to choose which path to take first, but it's still a pre-determined path. I find this argument to be ludicrous at best.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I'm just glad someone is trying to break the mold of the "same old, same old" MMO i feel like i have been playing far too long now...
Just for trying something different, I'll give this game a shot, hopefully they can keep me interested for some time.. If not, perhaps its back to generic MMO # 15 for me.
Comments
They haven't released a single game since they joined EA (except that throwaway sonic rpg on the DS of all things) so what are you basing your "slipping" comment on? The koolaid?
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
You're joking, right? It isn't like you tell people your story in any RPG. Certainly not a story that relates to quests or anything like that. SW: TOR at least gives you the ability to make meaningful decisions that impact your game story. So you can tell a friend about how you convinced the captain to go along with the attack, used words to convince a town to rise up against Sith forces, made peace between two groups of people, etc, etc (only one of those examples is from a demo, but they are all reasonable possibilities). Your friend, on the other hand, might have done the same quests, largely, but what their decisions were could be very, very different. Now THAT'S something meaningful to talk about. I don't see how you can possibly say that's the exact same story.
Beyond that, what friends you have and when and how you help them on quests and such is going to play out quite differently for each person, so if you want to be creative and make a more unique story it isn't going to be too hard to stand out as much as any other RPG. Just in TOR you'll actually be able to make decisions when you go to do a quest, and hence feel more immersed in the story than in any other MMORPG that is out there (as far as I know).
Now, I'll say this, if there was one more element that could be added in to all that, I'd want it to be that not just dialogue options determined what happened in a story. I'd want you to also be able to ACT and change things. If a bad guy is getting away, then if you are gutsy/crazy enough, maybe you can run by his guards and jump onto his ship before it takes off and stop him inflight, whereas a slower person would have to deal with the fact he got away. Something like that would compliment the dialogue options quite nicely.
In any case, actually having decisions that matter is a huge plus, not a minus at all. Things won't be perfect (I'm sure), but it's a big step in the right direction.
I guess deciding which group you are in will also affect your character. Which is as it should be.
Let's assume everything you say is accurate, and you kill the Captain, your friend doesn't, and as part of YOUR storyline the Captain's family comes after you while you happen to be hanging out with your friend and he helps you kill them. These are all possible solutions:
1. It has no effect on his "faction" because it's your story, not his. For purposes of this event, your friend is not "the guy who let the captain live", he's just some unidentified friend of the "guy who killed the captain" and the captain's faction mates don't know to hate him more because they don't know who he is.
2. The revenge battle has no effect on anyone's "faction" because you've killed everybody that could possibly want to seek revenge.
3. Your friend's presence affects whether they decide to attack you (e.g. your "faction" is averaged out to determine the sequence of events). If your friend has already completed the encounter, it won't be triggered until he's not grouped with you.
4. Your friend's faction will be harmed by the fight, even if he's already done it, but it will affect his storyline going forward. Guilt by association. This is pretty much would happen in any other MMO where your faction determines whether an NPC will attack you or not.
Sure, there will inevitably be story inconsistencies or repetition, but how is this any worse than the simple fact in most other MMOs where you can kill the same boss over and over again, or help your friend complete a quest you've already done?
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Or his friend is unable to help him unless his friend wants to trash his faction. Which was basically what the OP listed originally. This is reasonable. Ie, your friend is playing a sith and you are a jedi. Guess what, that jedi shouldn't be helping the sith. yeah, they may be friends IRL, but in game, by their very actions, they are at opposite ends. They shouldn't be grouping in the first place. If they are grouped, well don't be surprised if the world doesn't take them at their word, the sith isn't a true sith, and the jedi isn't a true jedi.
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
You're joking, right? It isn't like you tell people your story in any RPG. Certainly not a story that relates to quests or anything like that. SW: TOR at least gives you the ability to make meaningful decisions that impact your game story. So you can tell a friend about how you convinced the captain to go along with the attack, used words to convince a town to rise up against Sith forces, made peace between two groups of people, etc, etc (only one of those examples is from a demo, but they are all reasonable possibilities). Your friend, on the other hand, might have done the same quests, largely, but what their decisions were could be very, very different. Now THAT'S something meaningful to talk about. I don't see how you can possibly say that's the exact same story.
Beyond that, what friends you have and when and how you help them on quests and such is going to play out quite differently for each person, so if you want to be creative and make a more unique story it isn't going to be too hard to stand out as much as any other RPG. Just in TOR you'll actually be able to make decisions when you go to do a quest, and hence feel more immersed in the story than in any other MMORPG that is out there (as far as I know).
Now, I'll say this, if there was one more element that could be added in to all that, I'd want it to be that not just dialogue options determined what happened in a story. I'd want you to also be able to ACT and change things. If a bad guy is getting away, then if you are gutsy/crazy enough, maybe you can run by his guards and jump onto his ship before it takes off and stop him inflight, whereas a slower person would have to deal with the fact he got away. Something like that would compliment the dialogue options quite nicely.
In any case, actually having decisions that matter is a huge plus, not a minus at all. Things won't be perfect (I'm sure), but it's a big step in the right direction.
I have no doubt that TOR will spin a good yarn, where I do have doubt is that other people will want to hear about it. As I discussed above a great individual story is part of any RPG and I expect that in this game. My fear is that they'll not provide us with the elements that make people want to listen to our story.
Edit: This is not just an RPG they are making it's an MMORPG. What a MMORPG comes down to is allowing players the ability to express themselves and the ability to generate another players desire to watch or participate in that expression.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
agreed
I could care less what classification this game gets by an internet forum, if it's a good game and I enjoy it then it will be well worth it.
your momma isn't a true MMO...0o
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
You're joking, right? It isn't like you tell people your story in any RPG. Certainly not a story that relates to quests or anything like that. SW: TOR at least gives you the ability to make meaningful decisions that impact your game story. So you can tell a friend about how you convinced the captain to go along with the attack, used words to convince a town to rise up against Sith forces, made peace between two groups of people, etc, etc (only one of those examples is from a demo, but they are all reasonable possibilities). Your friend, on the other hand, might have done the same quests, largely, but what their decisions were could be very, very different. Now THAT'S something meaningful to talk about. I don't see how you can possibly say that's the exact same story.
Beyond that, what friends you have and when and how you help them on quests and such is going to play out quite differently for each person, so if you want to be creative and make a more unique story it isn't going to be too hard to stand out as much as any other RPG. Just in TOR you'll actually be able to make decisions when you go to do a quest, and hence feel more immersed in the story than in any other MMORPG that is out there (as far as I know).
Now, I'll say this, if there was one more element that could be added in to all that, I'd want it to be that not just dialogue options determined what happened in a story. I'd want you to also be able to ACT and change things. If a bad guy is getting away, then if you are gutsy/crazy enough, maybe you can run by his guards and jump onto his ship before it takes off and stop him inflight, whereas a slower person would have to deal with the fact he got away. Something like that would compliment the dialogue options quite nicely.
In any case, actually having decisions that matter is a huge plus, not a minus at all. Things won't be perfect (I'm sure), but it's a big step in the right direction.
I have no doubt that TOR will spin a good yarn, where I do have doubt is that other people will want to hear about it. As I discussed above a great individual story is part of any RPG and I expect that in this game. My fear is that they'll not provide us with the elements that make people want to listen to our story.
Edit: This is not just an RPG they are making it's an MMORPG. What a MMORPG comes down to is allowing players the ability to express themselves and the ability to generate another players desire to watch or participate in that expression.
So what? The argument here is that it is no different than ANY OTHER MMO in this aspect? That's the worst-case scenerio, right?
I actually think you'll have people who do talk about how they handled quests and such, since you can actually do them in multiple ways now. That's different from other MMOs, and that's part of your character's personal story and it seems reasonable to think that people would be interested in how others handled a particular quest with multiple options. You'll have the standard "in this fight I did X and it was awesome" bits too, that every MMO has. Now, like I said, I hope all story possibilities aren't covered by dialogue choices, but also in part by action. We'll have to see how that goes (but it would be another thing to talk to your friends about). In any case, all the things one talks about in MMOs today will still be in TOR, but there will also be other stuff.
So what?!?!?!?? So once again we are getting a RPG masquerading as a MMORPG so that a gaming company can pick our pockets monthly and with every successive release of these damn MMORPGs fewer people are questioning what makes these bloody games massively multiplayer. Save your customers money and just make a RPG with a dungeon mod toolkit an allow players to build and host their own multiplayer events.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I think you're confusing MMORPG with MySpace.
They demonstrated at E3 that multiple players will be able to cooperate/participate in the story aspect of the game. Your nerdrage is unfounded.
Let me address the OP. I do understand your concerns and do think they are valid. Guildwars had the same thing. Story driven and choices you made affected you later down the line. Yet having a single player in your party that made choices different then you ended up spoiling the immersion. I enjoyed the story but the immersion was gone when it came to grouping.
Now for the above quote. While I dont consider Guildwars as an MMO (Even though it does fit the criteria of an MMO) it has already done the story line bit so no, SWTOR wouldnt be the first. Heck even back in EQ1 days, it did have a story (a very rich lore if you actually spent the time and read it) and some decisions you made in the game did have drastic changes to peoples chars (The paladin sword quest for example).
As for your RPG statement. All that you quoted are actually MMORPG's because RPG stands for Role Playing Game. It was left up to the players to actually, you know, Role Play, but we know how that turned out. SWTOR is not going to be any different. A lot of people will play the game to get the best equipment or the most richs and wont role play a bit. I think SWTOR will probably be a fun game and I will get it, but dont delude yourself into thinking that it is the first true MMORPG, that simply wont be the case.
I have to disagree, claiming a car is a bus because both carry people on roads doesn't make it so. Just because a bunch of suits who don't understand the definition of a word (heck, most of them don't even understand why we play lol) decided to brand their product to hook in a specific market (us) doesn't change the reality of what their employees created. There hasn't been a single real MMORPG (that I'm aware of) ever.
Why is this? Because a Role Playing Game is about deciding a character's actions within a story. (Not about making your own character's story within an environment - that's sandbox MMO, and they aren't true RPGs either - they need their own name for what they do). It's the same whether the delivery platform is a single-player game, a multiplayer game or a pen'n paper D&D group in someone's basement.
However, MMOs by definition want the longest lifespan possible so that they can put as much ROI as possible on the investor's prospectus. So it is absolutely crazy for any MMO producer to think of creating a story, because said story must END SOMETIME, and that's bad for the ol' prospectus. So their answer is smoke and mirror "stories" such as quest chains and expansion packs.
That's why I say BioWare is making the very first true MMORPG ever. Their story ENDS when you finish it, just like every single-player RPG story ends, and every DnD campaign ends.
While it's confirmed that your character's actions affect the story that you play through, I do want to hear whether our character's actions will affect the actual ending of the story (a la Deus X), because if it doesn't, then BioWare will fall short in that regard.
Yep, the story ends till the next update or expansion. Then you have some of the other MMO activities (crafting, PvP, dungeon crawls, faction grinding .... etch) to keep your max level occupied or even better, you roll up another character and experience a completely different story. That's the beauty of having a unique story per class. Or you could even roll up the same class and try a different path just to see how that story unfolds.
The best part of this game is that you are NOT dependent on others to play, but the option for grouping is there. This gives you the best of both worlds and guarantees that you can experience 100% of the game no matter your play style. Assuming of course that whatever niche crafting and raiding they implement is negligible and doesn't make you feel left out.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
LOL
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
You know I don't doubt the game will be a lot of fun to play, but I agree, based on info so far it sounds like a singleplayer rpg with a subscription model grafted onto it.
Because of that and because of Lucas, this game is defintiely a try-before-you-buy kinda game.
I think you're confusing MMORPG with MySpace.
They demonstrated at E3 that multiple players will be able to cooperate/participate in the story aspect of the game. Your nerdrage is unfounded.
We mock what we don't understand.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
So what?!?!?!?? So once again we are getting a RPG masquerading as a MMORPG so that a gaming company can pick our pockets monthly and with every successive release of these damn MMORPGs fewer people are questioning what makes these bloody games massively multiplayer. Save your customers money and just make a RPG with a dungeon mod toolkit an allow players to build and host their own multiplayer events.
Which games do you consider to be MMORPGs?
The 'story' in TOR is not much different than the quest system in WoW, EQ2, LotRO, etc. What makes a game massively multiplayer is the potential to play the game along side tens to hundreds to thousands of other players. According to the developers, TOR is going to allow that, which will make it fit the definition. It will have a RPG style character progression system and allow player X to roleplay as Jim Dandy, Republic Trooper, and player Y to roleplay as Bill Gruffington, Sith aligned Bounty Hunter, which makes it fit the definition of an RPG. It is going to have quests, like every other MMO, but they intend to add branches to the quest chains, along with a ton of words.
Just because I have to kill 10 fozzle A's and you have to kill 15 fozzle B's doesn't mean we cant group together and help each other out with our respective massivley worded quests, or 'story' chapter. The 'story' system isn't going to make any more difference than me having to kill 10 boars and you having to kill 10 wolves would in any other MMORPG.
From all we know so far, TOR is going to be a typical themepark MMORPG with more words involved in quests and quests that branch out, instead of being linear. We'll be running FedEx quests, and killing the TOR equivelent of 10 rats (according to the developers, those 10 rats are going to be much larger in stature, and be some worm looking thing, and as such much more 'HEROIC!!!!1112' somehow, so I also assume the FedEx quests will involve us taking the 'MAJOR IMPORTANT THINGAMAJIG OF UBER IMPORTANCE!' to grandma's house, instead of a basket of food and as such fall in line with all the 'HEROIC!!!!1112' blather).
The folks from BioWare claim to be making an MMORPG, the folks at LEC claim BioWare is making an MMORPG, and BioWare has licensed an engine that is specifically intended to be used to make MMORPGs. BioWare also opened a studio in Austin and hired a bunch of folks who have been involved in making MMORPGs to build TOR. That would seem to be a watse of time, resources, and effort if they are making something other than an MMORPG.
Pot, meet kettle. Couldn't have said it better myself, buddy.
Greetings and salutations my fellow gamers,
Alexis here, just your average friendly gamer girl with a penchant for wordy yet eloquent replies. Making my splash debut on MMORPG.com in a thread that is based on a jest poll.....Truly one must wonder at my sanity. But here goes. Since it applied here, I reposted this in this thread as well.
Bioware is trying something new, and we, as gamers, have grown so accustomed to our acronyms and definitions that we are nervous at the thought of true innovation. Often times it is this mentality, the "you can't break this mould or else bad things are destined to come your way", that splits our communities in half. Nearly as much as our worst debates on time constraints, gear obtainment value, to kill or not to kill another player and all around "this is greater than that" banter.
But why is this the case? Why are we, as gamers afraid of innovation in our genres? Why is the threat of "watering down the heart of the genre" such a concern.....to me, it is not. But to many of my fellows it stems from the idea that if a game deviates too far from the core of its genre and then is labeled as something it's not it opens the door for other games of a similar milieu to flood in. Valid concerns all. And sadly something we are already seeing in the MMO genre, with these first person shooter 24 people to a zone max "MMO-lites"..... So why is Bioware different, and how?
They tell amazing stories.
Bioware has yet to fail me, all of their games, and most of their game derivatives or partnership projects have been among my favorite game experiences. And for me it all began (yea I know I was a late BW fan) with Neverwinter Nights. It was what tore me and my friends away from our multiyear Diablo 2 addiction. Once I had tasted that...I checked out more things with their hand on it or near it. From Baldur's Gate to Planescape: Torment (their engine and a couple of their designers worked on it) to KoToR and then ME. They have never failed to astound me at their storytelling expertise.
But will this, this grandiose storytelling, amazing characterization and full voice over, work in my precious MMO genre? Like others I too have my concerns, though, I cannot and will not let them rule me.
You see these amazing RPG tools, the stories, the voices, the characterization, is one thing I could never fulfill in my MMO gaming. A closet addiction I have had since EQ1... For these things I had always to go elsewhere. Ever having to separate these two genres I so enjoyed.
And now they are to be married together in one game, done by a company that has yet to fail me.
Fears or not. I look forward to SW:TOR and to seeing how and if Bioware can accomplish the marriage of these two genres in a single game. Will this game prove to be MMORPG or SPORPG, the jury is out on this, but Bioware promised a fully functioning MMO, they have said this game will possess all the traits of an MMO. Will the single player like aspects of this game override the massive feel?
I urge you my fellow gamers, to try and let time tell on this one, rather than caving to your fears about a single player online role playing game. I have yet to be disappointed by this development team, and if they can maintain the massive feel, and add these elements to the game, then I say they may become the new golden standard in the genre.
Alexis Diana Dority
*smiles*
So what?!?!?!?? So once again we are getting a RPG masquerading as a MMORPG so that a gaming company can pick our pockets monthly and with every successive release of these damn MMORPGs fewer people are questioning what makes these bloody games massively multiplayer. Save your customers money and just make a RPG with a dungeon mod toolkit an allow players to build and host their own multiplayer events.
Which games do you consider to be MMORPGs?
The 'story' in TOR is not much different than the quest system in WoW, EQ2, LotRO, etc. What makes a game massively multiplayer is the potential to play the game along side tens to hundreds to thousands of other players. According to the developers, TOR is going to allow that, which will make it fit the definition. It will have a RPG style character progression system and allow player X to roleplay as Jim Dandy, Republic Trooper, and player Y to roleplay as Bill Gruffington, Sith aligned Bounty Hunter, which makes it fit the definition of an RPG. It is going to have quests, like every other MMO, but they intend to add branches to the quest chains, along with a ton of words.
Just because I have to kill 10 fozzle A's and you have to kill 15 fozzle B's doesn't mean we cant group together and help each other out with our respective massivley worded quests, or 'story' chapter. The 'story' system isn't going to make any more difference than me having to kill 10 boars and you having to kill 10 wolves would in any other MMORPG.
From all we know so far, TOR is going to be a typical themepark MMORPG with more words involved in quests and quests that branch out, instead of being linear. We'll be running FedEx quests, and killing the TOR equivelent of 10 rats (according to the developers, those 10 rats are going to be much larger in stature, and be some worm looking thing, and as such much more 'HEROIC!!!!1112' somehow, so I also assume the FedEx quests will involve us taking the 'MAJOR IMPORTANT THINGAMAJIG OF UBER IMPORTANCE!' to grandma's house, instead of a basket of food and as such fall in line with all the 'HEROIC!!!!1112' blather).
The folks from BioWare claim to be making an MMORPG, the folks at LEC claim BioWare is making an MMORPG, and BioWare has licensed an engine that is specifically intended to be used to make MMORPGs. BioWare also opened a studio in Austin and hired a bunch of folks who have been involved in making MMORPGs to build TOR. That would seem to be a watse of time, resources, and effort if they are making something other than an MMORPG.
I consider early UO, early SWG, and EvE to be the best examples of a MMORPG.
When determining what makes a MMORPG ask yourself these 2 questions:
Can I replace the other players with NPCs and have the same game experience?
Can the multiplayer parts of this game be handled in the same way as Diablo 2 and Battle.net?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
That is exactly the problem.. This game is just a spin of KOTOR.. it will be heavily instanced or phased, which means most of what you do will NOT involved others.. Incase you are not aware of.. phasing has been done by other games and IMO, it sucks.. Phasing is very very ANTI social (mmo).. It locks people out of grouping.. Is this what you want from a MMO? The only people you can group with are those in the same TIME frame of the phase? NOT I..
I would have said, 'my friends' that it means SWTOR is the diametric opposite of an MMORPG.
You are forced to play not your own story but a story pre-chosen for you.
That story is selected when you choose your character.
That story does offer you a variety of choices but the choices, it seems, are only one of three kinds. GOOD, BAD and NEUTRAL. Those decisions do NOT CHANGE the story. They just take you through it. If you wish to leave the story, you can't.
This is not a voyage of exploration into new landscapes and new varieties of experience - such as even a game like WoW is. Instead, fromn the details received so far, SWTOR is a game on rails where you can't leave the shuttle bus.
And of course complete lack of story like every mmo out there allows you to make up whatever story for your character you want... but who cares??? You didn't get to experience this story... if you want to make your own story go write a book.
Well, that's the whole issue about the game, isn't it?
Is Bioware's idea of making 'Story' the centre of their game a slam-dunk win for TOR? Or a gigantic misjudgement that means limited playability?
Excellent point Hubert..
It does limit play.. You have to follow Bioware's PREDETERMINED path in the game.. Granted you have at times a choice to go bad or good.. but even the choices are predetermined.. Will the game have a good story that limits "MY" story? Probably, but then I don't RENT books from the library, Especially the same book month after month..
I would have said, 'my friends' that it means SWTOR is the diametric opposite of an MMORPG.
You are forced to play not your own story but a story pre-chosen for you.
That story is selected when you choose your character.
That story does offer you a variety of choices but the choices, it seems, are only one of three kinds. GOOD, BAD and NEUTRAL. Those decisions do NOT CHANGE the story. They just take you through it. If you wish to leave the story, you can't.
This is not a voyage of exploration into new landscapes and new varieties of experience - such as even a game like WoW is. Instead, fromn the details received so far, SWTOR is a game on rails where you can't leave the shuttle bus.
And of course complete lack of story like every mmo out there allows you to make up whatever story for your character you want... but who cares??? You didn't get to experience this story... if you want to make your own story go write a book.
Well, that's the whole issue about the game, isn't it?
Is Bioware's idea of making 'Story' the centre of their game a slam-dunk win for TOR? Or a gigantic misjudgement that means limited playability?
Excellent point Hubert..
It does limit play.. You have to follow Bioware's PREDETERMINED path in the game.. Granted you have at times a choice to go bad or good.. but even the choices are predetermined.. Will the game have a good story that limits "MY" story? Probably, but then I don't RENT books from the library, Especially the same book month after month..
You do realize that every game ever made has a pre-determined path, right? You might get to choose which path to take first, but it's still a pre-determined path. I find this argument to be ludicrous at best.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I'm just glad someone is trying to break the mold of the "same old, same old" MMO i feel like i have been playing far too long now...
Just for trying something different, I'll give this game a shot, hopefully they can keep me interested for some time.. If not, perhaps its back to generic MMO # 15 for me.