There is a spot where I need to disagree with you. Average gamer is not a nerd any more. It's a guy with a job and a credit card most of the time, accompanied by a wife (WIFE AGRRO!!) and at least one child in most cases. Gaming has gone past that "socially isolated only" level and has become much more. This is where companies making "old style" mmos fail, they have remained nerds themselves and are making games for nerds. Yet nerds are mostly gone.
That's a darn good point there.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
first time i've been compelled to reply to a thread so consider yourself honoured Dana -
I tend not to play other MMOs other than Eve for the simple reason I don't have time, however if it weren't for the social side, and players wanting to help each other rather than themselves I wouldn't have gotten past the first month. Their experience, and willingness to help me out got me past that initial "ok i've done the basic training, what next?" stage, since then I've made some solid friends that I speak to OOG and totally OT. I've helped one guy change his career through my RL experience, I've made some strong in-game bonds too, and am now in a corporation with guys I have "flown" with on and off for my entire Eve-Life.
Imagine the senior structure (bar a couple) of an Eve Corporation gathering from all over the UK to decend upon a British Seaside town... That's what happened a couple of weeks ago, we may be nerds, but we're not totally antisocial people. (although i think Eve leans less to the classic nerd and more to tech-nerds - we have an honest to God rocket scientist in team).
There is a spot where I need to disagree with you. Average gamer is not a nerd any more. It's a guy with a job and a credit card most of the time, accompanied by a wife (WIFE AGRRO!!) and at least one child in most cases. Gaming has gone past that "socially isolated only" level and has become much more. This is where companies making "old style" mmos fail, they have remained nerds themselves and are making games for nerds. Yet nerds are mostly gone.
I never said being a nerd was a bad thing
I freely admit my nerdhood - although if anyone asks, it's OK because I've clearly "turned pro" - but let's be honest here. What's really changed here is the definition of a nerd. Lots of nerds lead entirely normal lives, but they still wait up for BSG on Friday
The point in the article is that the natural inclination of an MMO player is to avoid social situations when presented with a better alternative. It doesn't apply 100%, but it's a safe generalization.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Not trying for a derail here, but EVE does seriously benefit from the "what else would I be playing" effect.
Just by comparing the choices in a genre: I am primarily a Fantasy gaming fan, I got my start in D&D and EQ was my first MMO. In the years since, in the fantasy genre I have played DAoC, EQ2, Vanguard, AoC, WoW and I am currently playing LotRO. I've bounced back and forth between them several times too and will do so again if I get sick of my current game.
Compare that to EVE - sci fi spaceships....I get sick of EVE specifically and I can go play what? Some single player games? EVE really is in a niche all by itself, hence why it can stagger on without too much trouble.
Back on topic: "Downtime" is a badly used term, I agree. Certainly no one wants games with pointless time sinks and mechanics that waste time for the sake of wasting time.
But, what EVE has and many newer games lack is "hands free time". Despite the growth of voice chat, most people still socialize in MMOs via text, especially at first. If a game design has you soo busy pounding hotkeys, queuing actions and pressing arrows that you cannot type, you will not socialize. There need to be periods in game where you can be *accomplishing* something with your character - doesn't matter if it is crafting, harvesting, training or fighting - but some time in built into the game mechanics where you can be free to chat.
Now, in an ideal game of course there is some benefit to exploration or scenery soo impressive you just chill for a bit and watch the flowers..but most modern games seem designed to be played by a hyperactive gerbil on a rodent wheel.
Some of my best memories from games past are of long chats waiting for or riding a boat in EQ. Sitting at my ranger camp in SWG just chilling out and chatting with passing hunters/prospectors. Standing look out on the ramparts of a castle in DAoC looking for the next enemy probe or attack. Heck, late night humor while playing hide-n-seek in a cloaked recon cruiser with some enemies in a corp war in EVE.
There is a spot where I need to disagree with you. Average gamer is not a nerd any more. It's a guy with a job and a credit card most of the time, accompanied by a wife (WIFE AGRRO!!) and at least one child in most cases. Gaming has gone past that "socially isolated only" level and has become much more. This is where companies making "old style" mmos fail, they have remained nerds themselves and are making games for nerds. Yet nerds are mostly gone.
I never said being a nerd was a bad thing
I freely admit my nerdhood - although if anyone asks, it's OK because I've clearly "turned pro" - but let's be honest here. What's really changed here is the definition of a nerd. Lots of nerds lead entirely normal lives, but they still wait up for BSG on Friday
The point in the article is that the natural inclination of an MMO player is to avoid social situations when presented with a better alternative. It doesn't apply 100%, but it's a safe generalization.
The only thing wrong with waiting for a new BSG episode is that the series ended
To be honest I don't consider myself being nerd for playing online games, loving spaceships, or finding nr.6 hot. In fact my social skills surpass those of guys who never play mmo games by far, which is constanly proven at work, in the shops and restaurants. And mmo games have contributed a lot to that.
Keep writing, you are on the right path when it comes to creating a sucesfull mmo in the long run. And lay of the nerd thing, I heard that coolest cats in Korea are famous gamers, so gaming is becoming mainstream and those who do not play anything will be nerds of the future:) You will see that you are wrong when it comes to your conviction that people run from each other in mmos. They run from each other only if games make it hard for them to communicate (instancing, bad or lack of chat windows and techniques...), the point of mmos is to play it with others, if you are running from people you meet you might as well play single player games.
Opinions are like 4rs3s, everyone has one
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
I agree that social content is neglected in newer MMO releases. I played FFXI for years. (Some people loved it some hated it) The linkshell i was in was always chattering away which made even mundane task in game a social outlet and people would easily be able to get help, advise or form up a party fpr almost anything. That game focused on party play and I enjoyed that part of it. SE took it a bit too far in FFXI but games like WOW went just as far the other direction, my guild had 200 or so people in it, 20-40 on at a time and rarely does anyone speak in guild chat and i can go days without a single person saying anything to me. (I'm a healer spec, resto Druid, if anyone should get asked to parties you would think it waould be a healer!)
Anyway, the whole mmo concept was to play with and against other people, that seems to be something that developers have declined to incorporate into most games these days and the games have suffered a drop in quality as a result.
There are many other factors that make Eve thrive other than the social factor. Freedom to play your character as you like, not be straightjacketed in a restricted character class.
Eve actually forces you to join a corporation as grouping with unknown players is highly dangerous.
The formula is the same formula that classic EQ used until SOE changed the game and ruined it. EQ was popular for years and continued to grow because of the social interaction until SOE focused more and more on raiding to the detriment of freedom of play and casual gameplay.
What you are saying Dana, without labeling it, is that EVE is succesful because it is a sandbox, and I agree. It has to of course also be a quality game as you mentioned, because a crappy sandbox is just a sandbox filled with poo.
Dana you do contradict yourself at first by suggesting succesful games need direction which of course is the opposite of EVE and a sandbox environment. The inherent direction of being succesful, by leveling, raising skills, mastering a craft, exploring a large world etc. is enough to motivate a player.
Theme park games are completely directed and linear which you correctly identified as not needing interaction and therefore not binding players while sandbox games foster freedom and interaction to accomplish goals by not scripting a path.
I must be the anti-Dana Massey, I almost always disagree with what he writes.
In this case, there's some small parts I agree with, but I have a better answer as to why Eve keeps "growing" (albiet, VERY slowly):
1) Huge time sink, you don't want to give up what you've done so far, as you've invested tons of time most likely.
2) It has a fairly robust economic system.
3) Its the only "real" space game (Sorry SW:G fans), even if the "space" part of its fairly not realistic, and point and click...
4) The game "grows" by encouraging multiple accounts like no other game does. Its no longer even slightly suprising to meet people with 3-4-5-6-7-8 accounts. I myself have two, and I'm a "casual" player.
The "end game PvP" doesn't even draw that many people into 0.0 space, as can be seen from their quarterly reports, something like 70% of characters never leave empire space. So it isn't the "pvp action!" that draws people, PvP in eve is usually "Gank" or "Blob" style fights that leave no doubt who the victor will be before the first shot is ever fired. The "ooh wow!" alliance vs alliance fights are few and far between (in even numbers), and are so rare they actually make the "news".
A lot of people in this thread seem to want to go back to the bad old days of massive down time or /shudder, AC1 where being a warm body was enough (because there were only 3 templates that people used anyways)...
If the downfall of socialization is why MMO's all die, then why is WoW still as popular as it is? It's made grouping easy, you don't have to speak, etc...
Then again, you didn't have to speak in EQ1 groups either... most people read books or watched tv during the downtimes (that's uh, a "bad" thing if you are a game developer).
I thought it was a good thought provoking article...in the least was to make the point that things are moving from a socialization to a game mechanic on the slider scale...I think we need to bring back some more socializations IMHO...there's a fine balance in between there somewhere...
Wow, I put on the extreme for mechanic....SWG (Pre-ALL) I would put on the other extreme for the socialization side....
to put those 2 games side by side, for me, I played 4+ yrs of SWG...and enjoyed it until I couldn't enjoy it anymore (i.e. the changes).....I played wow for 6 months and had max leveled numerous characters...I didn't really find it that fun through most of it so I quit...
The formula is the same formula that classic EQ used until SOE changed the game and ruined it. EQ was popular for years and continued to grow because of the social interaction until SOE focused more and more on raiding to the detriment of freedom of play and casual gameplay. What you are saying Dana, without labeling it, is that EVE is succesful because it is a sandbox, and I agree. It has to of course also be a quality game as you mentioned, because a crappy sandbox is just a sandbox filled with poo. Dana you do contradict yourself at first by suggesting succesful games need direction which of course is the opposite of EVE and a sandbox environment. The inherent direction of being succesful, by leveling, raising skills, mastering a craft, exploring a large world etc. is enough to motivate a player. Theme park games are completely directed and linear which you correctly identified as not needing interaction and therefore not binding players while sandbox games foster freedom and interaction to accomplish goals by not scripting a path.
Actually, that was not at all what I said. I said EVE was successfully retaining players because they channeled their players into social groups and that was the key to retention. Any game, sandbox or theme park, could do the same thing. It just so happens that EVE is the major one doing it.
And I only contradict myself if you assume what I said is what you said, which of course it wasn't.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
I think you're hitting on a larger topic in MMOs in general: removing the second M from MMORPG. I've been writing and talking about this a while myself. We're going to be playing MORPGs shortly if we're not careful.
In my long time playing these games I've seen guilds go from the all important organization that you defended like a Nation to "things" that you put on and discard as you would make-up. This is equally true for grouping.
Everyone has such a violent reaction to the idea of forced grouping and guild content that if you write an article about wanting more group content in general you're bound to get buries or hate mail. It is all perceived as an attack on soloing. Don't get me wrong, I believe we should all be able to solo. I don't, however, believe soloing should be the most effective way to level. Sadly, in most games it is. We are penalized for grouping. Why bring this up though?
If you don't really need to find a group why do you need a guild? The organization is only good for socializing, raids and large scale PvP. If that guild doesn't do something the way you like it leave and find another one. Loyalty is simply out the door. We're more concerned about "me" instead of "us."
I was a proud member of my EQ1 guild for over four years. When I retired from that game I was still considered a member. I am to this day. When I moved to EQ2 I helped build a guild for over two years and eventually turned that into a multi-game organization. The point is, I see the guild before anything else and so do my core members. That feeling is not common in our community anymore. We are all, to put it truthfully, old. Younger (I'm not talking about actual age here either) games don't seem to get it. They're from the WoW culture. Things are done differently now.
By creating so much solo content, reducing down time to zero, and making it possible to group without any communication we've lost a big piece of the MMO experience. I'm sure this post alone will draw a decent amount of disagreement but I miss how things used to be. Grouping was a social function that allowed you to get work done at the same time. It might have been tough but sitting all night, grinding in Lower Guk or one of a hundred other dungeons, talking to your friends and guild mates was great. The action wasn't going every single moment. We talked, we laughed, we complained and you better believe we loved it.
Great article, and I agree entirely. In my experience, soloing is the most viable option for me based more on not wanting to be added for my skill in the game, or lack thereof, but because people actually want to meet and become friends. As Dana stated, the niche that MMOs fill is giving nerds a social outlet. However, because we are nerds, we are, by definition, socially stunted in one way or another, and the severity of it can vary greatly. It's difficult to BE social in that kind of environment, because social deficiencies tend to limit social effectiveness. My game of choice for a very long time was City of Heroes. I chose a higher than average population server to play on recently, and did my best to interact positively with others. Still, I found time and time again that social ineptitude made trying to chat with others a frustrating process filled with misunderstandings and a general lack of interest in much more than grinding out content. I DID meet a few extremely nice people, but in the end I found myself soloing more often than not, and the pleasantries that were exchanged were for that one task force only. It's difficult to socialize during combat in CoH, and rare was the team that would just stop and talk for a bit, to create some mood, some context, some humanity in the midst of knocking down nicely shaded polygons. I don't exclude myself from these criticisms, either. I have my biases and my pet peeves, as well. As others have said, SWG was probably the best in terms of creating great social arenas (I had immense fun in cantinas, and with guildies).
In the end, though, I think the social aspect of these games needs much more focus, because in this digital age, we are losing touch with one another, and we're losing the tools that allow people to really know and understand each other by becoming more selfish and self-reliant because of how we see others behaving ("Look out for number one, because nobody else will."). I still see generous, humble, gracious souls in MMOs, but not nearly as many as I used to, and that bothers me greatly...
Social interaction is a key tenant most developers are overlooking. It seems like most companies are bending over backwards to make games solo friendly.
I think it's because a lot of devs haven't figured out what the solo player really wants. I mean, it's an industry where "alone together" was some massive revelation for many, despite it being standard human behavior. An MMO is a virtual bar, club, arena... there is little difference other than the physical presence of each human being. To encourage interaction there is a need to emulate what it is about popular gathering places that people inherently like. To make those ingame locations or environments and those other players real to the player the key isn't shaders and specular lighting and whatever other cutting edge tech is out at the moment - it's creating an environment where players are cognizant of the presence of other players.
Let's use the bar as an example. You look at any current fantasy MMO and the bars will always be the same - the rustic look, the bottles and steins to indicate that the room is a bar, the mounted heads on the walls. It's like they took a picture of a cool bar and said "Let's put this ingame." But that crap is just what makes something look like a bar, not what makes it a gathering place.
The bartender that chats with the patrons.
The hot flirty chick that works there.
The cool music, the band or the concerts
The events that they run, like karaoke or triva
Poker, pool tables and dart boards for multiplayer entertainment
Jukebox and the arcade game in the corner for multi or single player entertainment
The local personalities
That's the stuff that makes people gather at a bar. Not the mounted boar's head, not the exposed beams and not the bottle laying down on the table next to the passed out guy that hasn;t moved once in the two years that you played the game.
IMO a tavern in an MMO with just half that stuff in it would be a place that players would automatically start gathering in. From what I've experienced in UO, Puzzle Pirates, Second Life and other social interaction-focused MMOs, environments like that is what makes people log in occasionally with the sole purpose of interacting with others instead of logging in every time to move that bar along a fewmore millimeters.
Very good illustration.
They put the bar in thinking "hey, it's a bar, people will socialize" but they don't put the bar in the game mechanics. The bullet points you listed should, in my opinion, all be able to be done, or "played and played by", by players. Many of those you listed in those bullets were doable in SWG.
Which speaks to my point (not sure if I made it in this thread) that developers seems to only worry about the interaction/connectivity of systems as it relates to combat. Others had stated, and rightly so, that that one aspect of gameplay doesn't keep players around as effectively as the people they know who play the game.
Hammering nails into roofing shingles in the hot Texas sun sucks royale with cheese and if given the option to do it daily for average pay I'd probably decline. But if I'm doing it with a good friend then most likely I would do it once, probably a few times.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I must be the anti-Dana Massey, I almost always disagree with what he writes. In this case, there's some small parts I agree with, but I have a better answer as to why Eve keeps "growing" (albiet, VERY slowly): 1) Huge time sink, you don't want to give up what you've done so far, as you've invested tons of time most likely. 2) It has a fairly robust economic system. 3) Its the only "real" space game (Sorry SW:G fans), even if the "space" part of its fairly not realistic, and point and click... 4) The game "grows" by encouraging multiple accounts like no other game does. Its no longer even slightly suprising to meet people with 3-4-5-6-7-8 accounts. I myself have two, and I'm a "casual" player. The "end game PvP" doesn't even draw that many people into 0.0 space, as can be seen from their quarterly reports, something like 70% of characters never leave empire space.
QFT ,i would like to add unique skill system to list ,you dont need to grind and kill thousands snakes/rats(of course you need money for ships/mods/skills) you are not limited to a race/class .But social bonds in my eve bringing growth ?No way ,eve's number one rule is '' trust noone '' and it actually works agains it
I would like to add the bar analogy someone posted earlier is an excellent example, and probably THE key element that many MMOs don't develop enough. Sure, most games have meeting places such as bars, taverns, or at least geographic areas that look more like places to socialize than to take down mobs. The problem is that there is no game mechanic that rewards such things. All it would really take is a CSR who was paid to watch said areas and trigger rewards based on actual social interaction, or conversely penalize those who go out of their way to destroy the social experience for others. This could be related to how well someone roleplays, or perhaps on how well they create a sense of community and do their best to involve anyone who comes to interact. I would hesitate to think an automated system could do this effectively, unless there was a class or job designed to enhance such an area (like musicians and dancers in SWG). I still think that human beings are needed to foster and promote true, healthy social interactions, though, and I think the first game that does this effectively is going to be our true WoW-killer, assuming all the other elements are done reasonably well, also.
I agree completely and will add that one of the things many newer game designers seem to have missed is the concept of "down time". There is a direct relation between the amount of chat and socialization going on in EVE and the fact that I (as a player) do not have to be constantly pounding hotkeys, using mouse controls etc the entire time I am playing to accomplish anything.
THIS is exactly one of the main reasons I loved having a crafting-only toon in Star Wars Galaxies. When I got sick of combat or exploring, I could log into my crafter and chat with my guild and other friends while crafting. Not only was SWG's crafting much more involved than modern games, it also gave you a chance to have some good down time. Sometimes I would just head to one of the popular cantinas where there were entertainers (a purely social player class that many people loved), and people getting heals/buffs from the entertainers. I would pull out my crafting R2 unit, and start crafting while chatting everyone up in the cantina, and making new friends. Sometimes I would get word of big group adventure that I wouldn't have ever known about without being in there socializing.
This just scratches the surface of what a game with greate community features and non-combat/social player classes can bring to an MMO. These non-combat classes and features bring different kinds of people to the game world. People who would be more inclined to log into SecondLife than WoW. Even though many people do not care for this type of game play, some of the most interesting people I ever met in SWG couldn't have cared less about the PvE or PvP content. Those people made the game world interesting, and breathed life into it. If you were into SWG, you had no problem suspending disbelief immediately after logging in, and fully immersing yourself into the game world.
Having non-combat focused classes and skills such as scientists and poiticians was awesome too, and it made for lots of player created content. Massey hits at a point many of us "sandbox" guys have been saying here for a long time now. If your game is open ended, and you give the players the mechanics and tools to make their own content, they will. This is what kepy SWG going despite the myriad of problems with the game. No one cared about the lack of quests and content, because we players were the content. The game allowed us almost total freedom to do so.
Still though, you cannot have one with out the other in my opinion. You cannot have an open ended MMO that is focused 90% on combat and 10% in social/non-combat play. There needs to be a blance to pull it off. It can't be easy and as Massey said, EVE got lucky in this respect, as they probably didn't think about it while designing the game. The same can be said about pre-cu SWG. They did not plan for this rich community to happen, but the game facilitated it.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I think the social bonds could be much improved, and I agree with a lot of the article.
Something has changed....the people I was in my first guild in WoW with, just after release, are still on my MSN and email, and we say hi and catch up, even though I havent been guilded or played with them in over 3 ½ years.
There were acquaintences on that server, that I have run into on other games, years later, and we instantly strike up the friendship again.
I even met my better half in that guild eventually!
Now, I have been in a load of guilds, and felt no connection, there is no need to do things as a guild any more in most games, aside from the odd raid...there is very little interaction, everyone has alts providing stuff, so you dont need to help each other out, there is no travelling all across the world in any game to help someone (unless someone in the guild is being particularly annoying "Wtf, why wont you boost me ffs"
I played Eve, among many games, and I did enjoy the corps there.
Having said that, I am against forced grouping for several reasons:
1) Are you sure you want to be forced to group with Joe random? You know, the one that thinks a tank has instant aggro on a whole group so he unleashes his AOE, or, the one that thinks warriors tank perfectly fine in a bikini and uber dps stance? Or the healer that thinks he can heal with his totem...or the one that has a tantrum when anyone else dare even think about needing something.
2) I suffer from Social Anxieties, among other psychological issues. These sometimes manifest online as well as IRL. I have spent many month not wanting to join with a PuG, and pulling out of guild runs at the last minute, as well as randomly leaving my guilds and deleting all my chars in various games....so, I do not want to be forced to group if I cannot.
When I solo, why do I not play a solo game?
Well, that answer is simple, online games also function as a chatbox, and when I am having an insane anxiety episode, logging into a game, killing some time grinding and chatting in general chat is an amazing distractor for me.
CCP walked with no shoes on broken glass for a long time , with their policy getting the ppl softly introduced into a open and mean gameworld (i still remember the days i started ,every morning there were officials in the chat to give you limited help and hints without being dicks/cunts ) worked out perfectly being the' most into touch with its playerbase' company i know . Took me 6 month to realize this wasnt my game , but the time i played it it was fun fun fun ..i went off without any bitter thoughts ,cuz i knew the problem was on my side
2) I suffer from Social Anxieties, among other psychological issues. These sometimes manifest online as well as IRL. I have spent many month not wanting to join with a PuG, and pulling out of guild runs at the last minute, as well as randomly leaving my guilds and deleting all my chars in various games....so, I do not want to be forced to group if I cannot. When I solo, why do I not play a solo game?
Well, that answer is simple, online games also function as a chatbox, and when I am having an insane anxiety episode, logging into a game, killing some time grinding and chatting in general chat is an amazing distractor for me.
You have a medical issue, so you want these MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online games to cater to your needs, to provide you with a single player game with a chat room. Interesting. I'm curious to know how your social anxiety affects you in the animated game world but not in chat where the real interaction is happening.
Don't feel too bad though. There are lots of people, I would dare say most of the people who play these modern MMO's are really looking for a single player game with a chat room. Ironically, most of them never end up talking to anyone anyway,
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I agree completely and will add that one of the things many newer game designers seem to have missed is the concept of "down time". There is a direct relation between the amount of chat and socialization going on in EVE and the fact that I (as a player) do not have to be constantly pounding hotkeys, using mouse controls etc the entire time I am playing to accomplish anything.
I could not agree with this sentiment more. I always felt like I was alone in this factor. I hate to use this as an example but when I'm playing a game like WoW I really don't like that I have to pound on so many of my darn hotkeys when all I'm doing is mindlessly grinding out quests for you guessed it "experience". Of course I'm not really sure what I'm experiencing other than a massive headache.
I REALLY think these games, if they're going to evolve are going to have to learn to incorporate downtime. You just hit the nail on the head for me.
2) I suffer from Social Anxieties, among other psychological issues. These sometimes manifest online as well as IRL. I have spent many month not wanting to join with a PuG, and pulling out of guild runs at the last minute, as well as randomly leaving my guilds and deleting all my chars in various games....so, I do not want to be forced to group if I cannot. When I solo, why do I not play a solo game?
Well, that answer is simple, online games also function as a chatbox, and when I am having an insane anxiety episode, logging into a game, killing some time grinding and chatting in general chat is an amazing distractor for me.
You have a medical issue, so you want these MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online games to cater to your needs, to provide you with a single player game with a chat room. Interesting. I'm curious to know how your social anxiety affects you in the animated game world but not in chat where the real interaction is happening.
Don't feel too bad though. There are lots of people, I would dare say most of the people who play these modern MMO's are really looking for a single player game with a chat room. Ironically, most of them never end up talking to anyone anyway,
You can play almost any single player game with MSN messenger running in the background, or ICQ, or whatever it is you use for instant messaging. If playing team games is such a hassle for you sometimes, then you could just adapt, instead of asking the devs to adapt the game rules for you.
There should be solo content in these games - sometimes we don't have the time to go out and set up a group or chat up the guild into a quest and those things, but even then the majority of the content should be geared towards group play (that is, if the genre's name still has any meaning). Why? Because these types of games are way more fun when played in community. And since games are quite a lot about fun, then this should be the main focus.
I used to remmeber daoc when the colour scheme meant if you could kill a orange con mob you were pretty slick and if you saw a red or purple unless you were grouped you ran for it.
i remmeber the days of soloing with my bard killing blue con and green con mobs because the bard was pretty weak to do yellow or higher.
I remmeber sitting around waiting for mana or hp to go back up after a fight and chatting away with folks then it would be "everyone ready" and everyone stood up and we started again. You joined a guild because you were invited too and you respected your guild leader, very few people ran guilds it was very close nit, even the few people who were in elite specifically built rvr groups were still part of that comunity even if they didnt talk much or turned up to save the day.
Slowly though i think the game changed from Realm Vs Realm and having faith inyour home realm to a ME vs everyone else, where you competted against your fellow realm mates to get the most Realm points or the Most exp or epic loot and artifacts.
The days of defending a keep for the fun of it were gone because it didnt give much rps you had people berating you because you ran into their 1vs1 vs their personal enemies (who they chatted too over irc). You had people constnatly complaining that fights were ruined OR such and such is a noob for zerging.
I think social bonds in Daoc were destroyed when the end game fight changed into a personal one man campaign.
To be blunt, If I cannot solo/duo well in a game, I will not play it.
I think we see less freeform play, classless systems and such, is, it is harder to force you into a group, if you can do more then one narrow role.
Raids seem like lazy programing. Instead of making an instance adjust to the amount of people in a group, one or more, you need mass amounts of people. Each person with limited roles. We ended up with roles that take over classes. Tanks better tank, and so on.
I work, juggle family, and play. I might be playing for an hour, or two. If I get a day off and get to play for a whole day, I don't want to waste it, searching for groups, getting into a group were my "warrior" has one task, stand there and spam hate skills.
I want to get some levels, do some mining, do some crafting. But, if the scripts for crafting come from a raid, or a componet is only found in a group instance, Well, I will not be crafting.
It comes down to, the more a game forces me into a small role, and a large group, the less I will be there. The social aspect for me, is global chats, market channel, buying and selling on a market. If someone needs some help, grouping with them to help them out, then going on my way.
I cannot be called casual, I generally have two to six accounts going at any one time. Two in one game, couple other games and such. Tend to play an hour or so at night, and most of the weekends.
I played EnB untill gate raids. I played COH untill you had to have a group to get a respec. I played SWG untill you had to raid to make BH armor. Played eq2 recently, till they started talking about making classes more dependant on each other, and getting Tanks back to being Tanks. I don't play tanks, I play fighters. So bye eq2. Lotro same problem. When conan starts nerfing solo/duo play, I will leave it as well.
If MMO's go to total forced social group games, that is fine with me, I will simply not play them. I will not be hampered by , people randomly quitting groups, bio breaks that go on forever, The I only have 30 minutes till school so don't read the quest text people, the reasons go on and on for me.
Last note, It really bugs me when people say, Oh yeah you have to have a group for that quest, but you can get a group easy and do it. I might be able to, But I am not going to. Or, your not grouping with the right people, once you do you will like it. No, I will not.
Comments
That's a darn good point there.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
first time i've been compelled to reply to a thread so consider yourself honoured Dana -
I tend not to play other MMOs other than Eve for the simple reason I don't have time, however if it weren't for the social side, and players wanting to help each other rather than themselves I wouldn't have gotten past the first month. Their experience, and willingness to help me out got me past that initial "ok i've done the basic training, what next?" stage, since then I've made some solid friends that I speak to OOG and totally OT. I've helped one guy change his career through my RL experience, I've made some strong in-game bonds too, and am now in a corporation with guys I have "flown" with on and off for my entire Eve-Life.
Imagine the senior structure (bar a couple) of an Eve Corporation gathering from all over the UK to decend upon a British Seaside town... That's what happened a couple of weeks ago, we may be nerds, but we're not totally antisocial people. (although i think Eve leans less to the classic nerd and more to tech-nerds - we have an honest to God rocket scientist in team).
I never said being a nerd was a bad thing
I freely admit my nerdhood - although if anyone asks, it's OK because I've clearly "turned pro" - but let's be honest here. What's really changed here is the definition of a nerd. Lots of nerds lead entirely normal lives, but they still wait up for BSG on Friday
The point in the article is that the natural inclination of an MMO player is to avoid social situations when presented with a better alternative. It doesn't apply 100%, but it's a safe generalization.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Not trying for a derail here, but EVE does seriously benefit from the "what else would I be playing" effect.
Just by comparing the choices in a genre: I am primarily a Fantasy gaming fan, I got my start in D&D and EQ was my first MMO. In the years since, in the fantasy genre I have played DAoC, EQ2, Vanguard, AoC, WoW and I am currently playing LotRO. I've bounced back and forth between them several times too and will do so again if I get sick of my current game.
Compare that to EVE - sci fi spaceships....I get sick of EVE specifically and I can go play what? Some single player games? EVE really is in a niche all by itself, hence why it can stagger on without too much trouble.
Back on topic: "Downtime" is a badly used term, I agree. Certainly no one wants games with pointless time sinks and mechanics that waste time for the sake of wasting time.
But, what EVE has and many newer games lack is "hands free time". Despite the growth of voice chat, most people still socialize in MMOs via text, especially at first. If a game design has you soo busy pounding hotkeys, queuing actions and pressing arrows that you cannot type, you will not socialize. There need to be periods in game where you can be *accomplishing* something with your character - doesn't matter if it is crafting, harvesting, training or fighting - but some time in built into the game mechanics where you can be free to chat.
Now, in an ideal game of course there is some benefit to exploration or scenery soo impressive you just chill for a bit and watch the flowers..but most modern games seem designed to be played by a hyperactive gerbil on a rodent wheel.
Some of my best memories from games past are of long chats waiting for or riding a boat in EQ. Sitting at my ranger camp in SWG just chilling out and chatting with passing hunters/prospectors. Standing look out on the ramparts of a castle in DAoC looking for the next enemy probe or attack. Heck, late night humor while playing hide-n-seek in a cloaked recon cruiser with some enemies in a corp war in EVE.
I never said being a nerd was a bad thing
I freely admit my nerdhood - although if anyone asks, it's OK because I've clearly "turned pro" - but let's be honest here. What's really changed here is the definition of a nerd. Lots of nerds lead entirely normal lives, but they still wait up for BSG on Friday
The point in the article is that the natural inclination of an MMO player is to avoid social situations when presented with a better alternative. It doesn't apply 100%, but it's a safe generalization.
The only thing wrong with waiting for a new BSG episode is that the series ended
To be honest I don't consider myself being nerd for playing online games, loving spaceships, or finding nr.6 hot. In fact my social skills surpass those of guys who never play mmo games by far, which is constanly proven at work, in the shops and restaurants. And mmo games have contributed a lot to that.
Keep writing, you are on the right path when it comes to creating a sucesfull mmo in the long run. And lay of the nerd thing, I heard that coolest cats in Korea are famous gamers, so gaming is becoming mainstream and those who do not play anything will be nerds of the future:) You will see that you are wrong when it comes to your conviction that people run from each other in mmos. They run from each other only if games make it hard for them to communicate (instancing, bad or lack of chat windows and techniques...), the point of mmos is to play it with others, if you are running from people you meet you might as well play single player games.
Opinions are like 4rs3s, everyone has one
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
I agree that social content is neglected in newer MMO releases. I played FFXI for years. (Some people loved it some hated it) The linkshell i was in was always chattering away which made even mundane task in game a social outlet and people would easily be able to get help, advise or form up a party fpr almost anything. That game focused on party play and I enjoyed that part of it. SE took it a bit too far in FFXI but games like WOW went just as far the other direction, my guild had 200 or so people in it, 20-40 on at a time and rarely does anyone speak in guild chat and i can go days without a single person saying anything to me. (I'm a healer spec, resto Druid, if anyone should get asked to parties you would think it waould be a healer!)
Anyway, the whole mmo concept was to play with and against other people, that seems to be something that developers have declined to incorporate into most games these days and the games have suffered a drop in quality as a result.
There are many other factors that make Eve thrive other than the social factor. Freedom to play your character as you like, not be straightjacketed in a restricted character class.
Eve actually forces you to join a corporation as grouping with unknown players is highly dangerous.
The formula is the same formula that classic EQ used until SOE changed the game and ruined it. EQ was popular for years and continued to grow because of the social interaction until SOE focused more and more on raiding to the detriment of freedom of play and casual gameplay.
What you are saying Dana, without labeling it, is that EVE is succesful because it is a sandbox, and I agree. It has to of course also be a quality game as you mentioned, because a crappy sandbox is just a sandbox filled with poo.
Dana you do contradict yourself at first by suggesting succesful games need direction which of course is the opposite of EVE and a sandbox environment. The inherent direction of being succesful, by leveling, raising skills, mastering a craft, exploring a large world etc. is enough to motivate a player.
Theme park games are completely directed and linear which you correctly identified as not needing interaction and therefore not binding players while sandbox games foster freedom and interaction to accomplish goals by not scripting a path.
I must be the anti-Dana Massey, I almost always disagree with what he writes.
In this case, there's some small parts I agree with, but I have a better answer as to why Eve keeps "growing" (albiet, VERY slowly):
1) Huge time sink, you don't want to give up what you've done so far, as you've invested tons of time most likely.
2) It has a fairly robust economic system.
3) Its the only "real" space game (Sorry SW:G fans), even if the "space" part of its fairly not realistic, and point and click...
4) The game "grows" by encouraging multiple accounts like no other game does. Its no longer even slightly suprising to meet people with 3-4-5-6-7-8 accounts. I myself have two, and I'm a "casual" player.
The "end game PvP" doesn't even draw that many people into 0.0 space, as can be seen from their quarterly reports, something like 70% of characters never leave empire space. So it isn't the "pvp action!" that draws people, PvP in eve is usually "Gank" or "Blob" style fights that leave no doubt who the victor will be before the first shot is ever fired. The "ooh wow!" alliance vs alliance fights are few and far between (in even numbers), and are so rare they actually make the "news".
A lot of people in this thread seem to want to go back to the bad old days of massive down time or /shudder, AC1 where being a warm body was enough (because there were only 3 templates that people used anyways)...
If the downfall of socialization is why MMO's all die, then why is WoW still as popular as it is? It's made grouping easy, you don't have to speak, etc...
Then again, you didn't have to speak in EQ1 groups either... most people read books or watched tv during the downtimes (that's uh, a "bad" thing if you are a game developer).
I thought it was a good thought provoking article...in the least was to make the point that things are moving from a socialization to a game mechanic on the slider scale...I think we need to bring back some more socializations IMHO...there's a fine balance in between there somewhere...
Wow, I put on the extreme for mechanic....SWG (Pre-ALL) I would put on the other extreme for the socialization side....
to put those 2 games side by side, for me, I played 4+ yrs of SWG...and enjoyed it until I couldn't enjoy it anymore (i.e. the changes).....I played wow for 6 months and had max leveled numerous characters...I didn't really find it that fun through most of it so I quit...
http://www.forceofarms.com/index.php
Actually, that was not at all what I said. I said EVE was successfully retaining players because they channeled their players into social groups and that was the key to retention. Any game, sandbox or theme park, could do the same thing. It just so happens that EVE is the major one doing it.
And I only contradict myself if you assume what I said is what you said, which of course it wasn't.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Great article!
I think you're hitting on a larger topic in MMOs in general: removing the second M from MMORPG. I've been writing and talking about this a while myself. We're going to be playing MORPGs shortly if we're not careful.
In my long time playing these games I've seen guilds go from the all important organization that you defended like a Nation to "things" that you put on and discard as you would make-up. This is equally true for grouping.
Everyone has such a violent reaction to the idea of forced grouping and guild content that if you write an article about wanting more group content in general you're bound to get buries or hate mail. It is all perceived as an attack on soloing. Don't get me wrong, I believe we should all be able to solo. I don't, however, believe soloing should be the most effective way to level. Sadly, in most games it is. We are penalized for grouping. Why bring this up though?
If you don't really need to find a group why do you need a guild? The organization is only good for socializing, raids and large scale PvP. If that guild doesn't do something the way you like it leave and find another one. Loyalty is simply out the door. We're more concerned about "me" instead of "us."
I was a proud member of my EQ1 guild for over four years. When I retired from that game I was still considered a member. I am to this day. When I moved to EQ2 I helped build a guild for over two years and eventually turned that into a multi-game organization. The point is, I see the guild before anything else and so do my core members. That feeling is not common in our community anymore. We are all, to put it truthfully, old. Younger (I'm not talking about actual age here either) games don't seem to get it. They're from the WoW culture. Things are done differently now.
By creating so much solo content, reducing down time to zero, and making it possible to group without any communication we've lost a big piece of the MMO experience. I'm sure this post alone will draw a decent amount of disagreement but I miss how things used to be. Grouping was a social function that allowed you to get work done at the same time. It might have been tough but sitting all night, grinding in Lower Guk or one of a hundred other dungeons, talking to your friends and guild mates was great. The action wasn't going every single moment. We talked, we laughed, we complained and you better believe we loved it.
Epic Slant
Putting the O back in Pwn
Great article, and I agree entirely. In my experience, soloing is the most viable option for me based more on not wanting to be added for my skill in the game, or lack thereof, but because people actually want to meet and become friends. As Dana stated, the niche that MMOs fill is giving nerds a social outlet. However, because we are nerds, we are, by definition, socially stunted in one way or another, and the severity of it can vary greatly. It's difficult to BE social in that kind of environment, because social deficiencies tend to limit social effectiveness. My game of choice for a very long time was City of Heroes. I chose a higher than average population server to play on recently, and did my best to interact positively with others. Still, I found time and time again that social ineptitude made trying to chat with others a frustrating process filled with misunderstandings and a general lack of interest in much more than grinding out content. I DID meet a few extremely nice people, but in the end I found myself soloing more often than not, and the pleasantries that were exchanged were for that one task force only. It's difficult to socialize during combat in CoH, and rare was the team that would just stop and talk for a bit, to create some mood, some context, some humanity in the midst of knocking down nicely shaded polygons. I don't exclude myself from these criticisms, either. I have my biases and my pet peeves, as well. As others have said, SWG was probably the best in terms of creating great social arenas (I had immense fun in cantinas, and with guildies).
In the end, though, I think the social aspect of these games needs much more focus, because in this digital age, we are losing touch with one another, and we're losing the tools that allow people to really know and understand each other by becoming more selfish and self-reliant because of how we see others behaving ("Look out for number one, because nobody else will."). I still see generous, humble, gracious souls in MMOs, but not nearly as many as I used to, and that bothers me greatly...
I think it's because a lot of devs haven't figured out what the solo player really wants. I mean, it's an industry where "alone together" was some massive revelation for many, despite it being standard human behavior. An MMO is a virtual bar, club, arena... there is little difference other than the physical presence of each human being. To encourage interaction there is a need to emulate what it is about popular gathering places that people inherently like. To make those ingame locations or environments and those other players real to the player the key isn't shaders and specular lighting and whatever other cutting edge tech is out at the moment - it's creating an environment where players are cognizant of the presence of other players.
Let's use the bar as an example. You look at any current fantasy MMO and the bars will always be the same - the rustic look, the bottles and steins to indicate that the room is a bar, the mounted heads on the walls. It's like they took a picture of a cool bar and said "Let's put this ingame." But that crap is just what makes something look like a bar, not what makes it a gathering place.
That's the stuff that makes people gather at a bar. Not the mounted boar's head, not the exposed beams and not the bottle laying down on the table next to the passed out guy that hasn;t moved once in the two years that you played the game.
IMO a tavern in an MMO with just half that stuff in it would be a place that players would automatically start gathering in. From what I've experienced in UO, Puzzle Pirates, Second Life and other social interaction-focused MMOs, environments like that is what makes people log in occasionally with the sole purpose of interacting with others instead of logging in every time to move that bar along a fewmore millimeters.
Very good illustration.
They put the bar in thinking "hey, it's a bar, people will socialize" but they don't put the bar in the game mechanics. The bullet points you listed should, in my opinion, all be able to be done, or "played and played by", by players. Many of those you listed in those bullets were doable in SWG.
Which speaks to my point (not sure if I made it in this thread) that developers seems to only worry about the interaction/connectivity of systems as it relates to combat. Others had stated, and rightly so, that that one aspect of gameplay doesn't keep players around as effectively as the people they know who play the game.
Hammering nails into roofing shingles in the hot Texas sun sucks royale with cheese and if given the option to do it daily for average pay I'd probably decline. But if I'm doing it with a good friend then most likely I would do it once, probably a few times.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
excellent read !
QFT ,i would like to add unique skill system to list ,you dont need to grind and kill thousands snakes/rats(of course you need money for ships/mods/skills) you are not limited to a race/class .But social bonds in my eve bringing growth ?No way ,eve's number one rule is '' trust noone '' and it actually works agains it
I would like to add the bar analogy someone posted earlier is an excellent example, and probably THE key element that many MMOs don't develop enough. Sure, most games have meeting places such as bars, taverns, or at least geographic areas that look more like places to socialize than to take down mobs. The problem is that there is no game mechanic that rewards such things. All it would really take is a CSR who was paid to watch said areas and trigger rewards based on actual social interaction, or conversely penalize those who go out of their way to destroy the social experience for others. This could be related to how well someone roleplays, or perhaps on how well they create a sense of community and do their best to involve anyone who comes to interact. I would hesitate to think an automated system could do this effectively, unless there was a class or job designed to enhance such an area (like musicians and dancers in SWG). I still think that human beings are needed to foster and promote true, healthy social interactions, though, and I think the first game that does this effectively is going to be our true WoW-killer, assuming all the other elements are done reasonably well, also.
THIS is exactly one of the main reasons I loved having a crafting-only toon in Star Wars Galaxies. When I got sick of combat or exploring, I could log into my crafter and chat with my guild and other friends while crafting. Not only was SWG's crafting much more involved than modern games, it also gave you a chance to have some good down time. Sometimes I would just head to one of the popular cantinas where there were entertainers (a purely social player class that many people loved), and people getting heals/buffs from the entertainers. I would pull out my crafting R2 unit, and start crafting while chatting everyone up in the cantina, and making new friends. Sometimes I would get word of big group adventure that I wouldn't have ever known about without being in there socializing.
This just scratches the surface of what a game with greate community features and non-combat/social player classes can bring to an MMO. These non-combat classes and features bring different kinds of people to the game world. People who would be more inclined to log into SecondLife than WoW. Even though many people do not care for this type of game play, some of the most interesting people I ever met in SWG couldn't have cared less about the PvE or PvP content. Those people made the game world interesting, and breathed life into it. If you were into SWG, you had no problem suspending disbelief immediately after logging in, and fully immersing yourself into the game world.
Having non-combat focused classes and skills such as scientists and poiticians was awesome too, and it made for lots of player created content. Massey hits at a point many of us "sandbox" guys have been saying here for a long time now. If your game is open ended, and you give the players the mechanics and tools to make their own content, they will. This is what kepy SWG going despite the myriad of problems with the game. No one cared about the lack of quests and content, because we players were the content. The game allowed us almost total freedom to do so.
Still though, you cannot have one with out the other in my opinion. You cannot have an open ended MMO that is focused 90% on combat and 10% in social/non-combat play. There needs to be a blance to pull it off. It can't be easy and as Massey said, EVE got lucky in this respect, as they probably didn't think about it while designing the game. The same can be said about pre-cu SWG. They did not plan for this rich community to happen, but the game facilitated it.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I think the social bonds could be much improved, and I agree with a lot of the article.
Something has changed....the people I was in my first guild in WoW with, just after release, are still on my MSN and email, and we say hi and catch up, even though I havent been guilded or played with them in over 3 ½ years.
There were acquaintences on that server, that I have run into on other games, years later, and we instantly strike up the friendship again.
I even met my better half in that guild eventually!
Now, I have been in a load of guilds, and felt no connection, there is no need to do things as a guild any more in most games, aside from the odd raid...there is very little interaction, everyone has alts providing stuff, so you dont need to help each other out, there is no travelling all across the world in any game to help someone (unless someone in the guild is being particularly annoying "Wtf, why wont you boost me ffs"
I played Eve, among many games, and I did enjoy the corps there.
Having said that, I am against forced grouping for several reasons:
1) Are you sure you want to be forced to group with Joe random? You know, the one that thinks a tank has instant aggro on a whole group so he unleashes his AOE, or, the one that thinks warriors tank perfectly fine in a bikini and uber dps stance? Or the healer that thinks he can heal with his totem...or the one that has a tantrum when anyone else dare even think about needing something.
2) I suffer from Social Anxieties, among other psychological issues. These sometimes manifest online as well as IRL. I have spent many month not wanting to join with a PuG, and pulling out of guild runs at the last minute, as well as randomly leaving my guilds and deleting all my chars in various games....so, I do not want to be forced to group if I cannot.
When I solo, why do I not play a solo game?
Well, that answer is simple, online games also function as a chatbox, and when I am having an insane anxiety episode, logging into a game, killing some time grinding and chatting in general chat is an amazing distractor for me.
CCP walked with no shoes on broken glass for a long time , with their policy getting the ppl softly introduced into a open and mean gameworld (i still remember the days i started ,every morning there were officials in the chat to give you limited help and hints without being dicks/cunts ) worked out perfectly being the' most into touch with its playerbase' company i know . Took me 6 month to realize this wasnt my game , but the time i played it it was fun fun fun ..i went off without any bitter thoughts ,cuz i knew the problem was on my side
You have a medical issue, so you want these MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online games to cater to your needs, to provide you with a single player game with a chat room. Interesting. I'm curious to know how your social anxiety affects you in the animated game world but not in chat where the real interaction is happening.
Don't feel too bad though. There are lots of people, I would dare say most of the people who play these modern MMO's are really looking for a single player game with a chat room. Ironically, most of them never end up talking to anyone anyway,
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I could not agree with this sentiment more. I always felt like I was alone in this factor. I hate to use this as an example but when I'm playing a game like WoW I really don't like that I have to pound on so many of my darn hotkeys when all I'm doing is mindlessly grinding out quests for you guessed it "experience". Of course I'm not really sure what I'm experiencing other than a massive headache.
I REALLY think these games, if they're going to evolve are going to have to learn to incorporate downtime. You just hit the nail on the head for me.
You have a medical issue, so you want these MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online games to cater to your needs, to provide you with a single player game with a chat room. Interesting. I'm curious to know how your social anxiety affects you in the animated game world but not in chat where the real interaction is happening.
Don't feel too bad though. There are lots of people, I would dare say most of the people who play these modern MMO's are really looking for a single player game with a chat room. Ironically, most of them never end up talking to anyone anyway,
You can play almost any single player game with MSN messenger running in the background, or ICQ, or whatever it is you use for instant messaging. If playing team games is such a hassle for you sometimes, then you could just adapt, instead of asking the devs to adapt the game rules for you.
There should be solo content in these games - sometimes we don't have the time to go out and set up a group or chat up the guild into a quest and those things, but even then the majority of the content should be geared towards group play (that is, if the genre's name still has any meaning). Why? Because these types of games are way more fun when played in community. And since games are quite a lot about fun, then this should be the main focus.
I used to remmeber daoc when the colour scheme meant if you could kill a orange con mob you were pretty slick and if you saw a red or purple unless you were grouped you ran for it.
i remmeber the days of soloing with my bard killing blue con and green con mobs because the bard was pretty weak to do yellow or higher.
I remmeber sitting around waiting for mana or hp to go back up after a fight and chatting away with folks then it would be "everyone ready" and everyone stood up and we started again. You joined a guild because you were invited too and you respected your guild leader, very few people ran guilds it was very close nit, even the few people who were in elite specifically built rvr groups were still part of that comunity even if they didnt talk much or turned up to save the day.
Slowly though i think the game changed from Realm Vs Realm and having faith inyour home realm to a ME vs everyone else, where you competted against your fellow realm mates to get the most Realm points or the Most exp or epic loot and artifacts.
The days of defending a keep for the fun of it were gone because it didnt give much rps you had people berating you because you ran into their 1vs1 vs their personal enemies (who they chatted too over irc). You had people constnatly complaining that fights were ruined OR such and such is a noob for zerging.
I think social bonds in Daoc were destroyed when the end game fight changed into a personal one man campaign.
To be blunt, If I cannot solo/duo well in a game, I will not play it.
I think we see less freeform play, classless systems and such, is, it is harder to force you into a group, if you can do more then one narrow role.
Raids seem like lazy programing. Instead of making an instance adjust to the amount of people in a group, one or more, you need mass amounts of people. Each person with limited roles. We ended up with roles that take over classes. Tanks better tank, and so on.
I work, juggle family, and play. I might be playing for an hour, or two. If I get a day off and get to play for a whole day, I don't want to waste it, searching for groups, getting into a group were my "warrior" has one task, stand there and spam hate skills.
I want to get some levels, do some mining, do some crafting. But, if the scripts for crafting come from a raid, or a componet is only found in a group instance, Well, I will not be crafting.
It comes down to, the more a game forces me into a small role, and a large group, the less I will be there. The social aspect for me, is global chats, market channel, buying and selling on a market. If someone needs some help, grouping with them to help them out, then going on my way.
I cannot be called casual, I generally have two to six accounts going at any one time. Two in one game, couple other games and such. Tend to play an hour or so at night, and most of the weekends.
I played EnB untill gate raids. I played COH untill you had to have a group to get a respec. I played SWG untill you had to raid to make BH armor. Played eq2 recently, till they started talking about making classes more dependant on each other, and getting Tanks back to being Tanks. I don't play tanks, I play fighters. So bye eq2. Lotro same problem. When conan starts nerfing solo/duo play, I will leave it as well.
If MMO's go to total forced social group games, that is fine with me, I will simply not play them. I will not be hampered by , people randomly quitting groups, bio breaks that go on forever, The I only have 30 minutes till school so don't read the quest text people, the reasons go on and on for me.
Last note, It really bugs me when people say, Oh yeah you have to have a group for that quest, but you can get a group easy and do it. I might be able to, But I am not going to. Or, your not grouping with the right people, once you do you will like it. No, I will not.
ruat caelum