Its not being elistist to require someone to be complete in order to join in end game content its called being ready, First Aid is a must.....because you can do it in combat and it allows healers to save mana instead of healing you also there are bosses that can't be encountered without building up the most annoying WoW tradeskill 'fishing' and having things that only master crafters have makes things easier as well. If you are going to play a MMORPG why not strive to be the best, wether or not you get there. As for you elistist guild...when guilds get that big its necessary to incoorperate things such as DKP or EPGP so that greed doesn't become a factor, people are less greedy when they know they are not gonna get gear unless they contribute to the raid.
Me yeah you can call me an Elitist I raided with some of the best and I got spoiled....it stopped being about wether or not we could do a raid but How fast we could do it.
I always strive to play my character to the best of its ability. Everyone I have played with could attest to that fact. However, greedy people that want to charge an arm and a leg for stuff that you can't afford does hinder that ability somewhat.
Thanks for the DKP thing, I was trying to remember what it was called and that was it.
Have you played other mmo's besides WoW? Tradeskills in most mmo's are a lot more involved than what it was in wow. Fishing was actually easy to get up. A little boring for those that are looking for fast paced action all the time but still easy none the less even on a pvp server. most tradeskills in wow are extremely easy to level and take little effort (there are some exceptions to that) compared to many other mmo's. And yet, even in wow, your still limited to how many tradeskills you can know. Which means that at some point you are going to have to rely on other crafters for stuff and thats when it goes down hill.
As for big guilds needing to put in a dkp system because of greed, I disagree with. My guild was doing great. the only people complaining was the guild leaders. Not because they didnt get the stuff they wanted, but because they felt that others should get their stuff first. The others were fine with how things were going but the guild leaders just couldnt get it through their thick heads that the rest of us was fine and that we actually enjoyed what we were doing and that they knew best for the rest of us. Thats the start of a greedy guild that will fall. Oh, and they did to.
So I can see where you comments are coming from, you do have an elitest attitude and thats totally cool and all, but you have to realize that the general population of mmo's are not that way and just want to enjoy their time in the virtual world before they have to come back out to the real world and dont want to have to deal with real world economics or politics in a video game. I can see why you would be opposed to the econimic system that I talked about, it could shorten your epeen stature in the game and most elitests dont like that.
First I've played several MMOs I started waaay back in the day with MuDs then I evolved to EQ and then to Anarchy Online which I played for about 5-6 years and still have an active sub. and then I went to WoW and then to Warhammer and I still play all three...
I'd be almost willing to bet that your Guild leader were getting it coming and going, there are people that will complain in private and deny it in public. The pain about is there is no perfect loot system, someone almost always feels screwed.
And it just seems since you don't have the tenacity to build your trade skills you want he rest of the community to pay for it by taking away the player ran market. Several people in this post have stated that your game play will change if you simply do the work. Tradeskills are not just there to make money from other players.
Also my e-peen will endure I assure you. I view myself as a quite skilled played and for that reason I will do well in an MMO universe because part of being an elitist is learning what you did wrong and correcting on it.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
It appears I've given the EVE players the impression I am incapable of making ISK. You know what- that is kinda true. I ahte making ISK in this game. I find the static pve content very dull. 'Ratting' is something I've done for yrs along with some trading,etc and I dont find it much fun.
Much rather pvp. But alas, I am forced to PVE. So I am already doing something I hate to do. Worse, this game economy is getting outrageous due to several player driven factors like others have pointed out. Such as moon minerals, hacks, cheats, and just general accumulation of wealth
This is driving up prices like crazy.
Funny, the tech 1 side of things is quite reasonable. Gasp! I know why- players have much less influence on the costs of Tech 1 items. Almost any player can build himself a Tech 1 ship and we dont rely on 'Alliances' to provide these materials. We can get them ourselves
Tech 2 items are a different story. Huge powerblocs control this and see- most can agree its the players that's really screwing us.
No matter how you look at it. Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed is ruining these ingame economies
I really loved Guild Wars enforced ceilings for items
No matter how you look at it. Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed is ruining these ingame economies
Okay, you sicken me enough that I am going to say it plainly. YOU and the people like you are the greedy ones and the problem here. You want things that other players create through their efforts and time in game, but are unwilling to pay for them on a free market. While you are unwilling or unable to do the work to make the items yourself, you sit back and insist that those who are making them are charging too much.
No one is forcing you to buy these things if you think they are too expensive. You could just do without or *gasp* make them yourself if it is soo easy and the "crafters" are all such greedy SOBs, but no. You'd rather sit back and whine about how unfair it is that some other player of the game won't spend their time and efforts slaving away to make you stuff at a price you like. What an amazing display of self-centered behavior.
....again....I think some of the prices...well ...a lot of the prices are outrageous but that is the cost of the other persons time,money and materials...not only of the item itself...but the cost of getting to the level of crafting that allows them to make the desired item. Raising your craft skill can cost arse-loads of E-Ching..if you're in a hurry...or many arse-loads of real time hours..if you prefer to farm for materials. If you want to make money without the work ..just choose gathering skills and auction the materials. Collect as you go and cash in. At least in WOW...i've made a mint off of skins..cloth...herbs (good for 2 professions now) and especially mining...cause the metal ores/bars are used by so many professions.
Unlike one suggestion...I don't think I'd want the auction house closed...although the regulation of amounts charged might be nice if a realistic formula is used. Economy and banking(although you wouldn't know it these days) were supposed to be regulated. I think this would work. I have a problem with eliminating trading....perhaps a limit to who can trade would be favorable.. Guildies should be able to trade..since two of the reasons you form a guild is for resource pooling and access to other proffesional goods. You should also be able to trade with your account/alts and maybe limited trade in groups..only recent drops that are acquired from the grouping session but once you leave the group..you are out of the running. These might be a nightmare to code....but they are some ideas.
It appears I've given the EVE players the impression I am incapable of making ISK. You know what- that is kinda true. I ahte making ISK in this game. I find the static pve content very dull. 'Ratting' is something I've done for yrs along with some trading,etc and I dont find it much fun.
Much rather pvp. But alas, I am forced to PVE. So I am already doing something I hate to do. Worse, this game economy is getting outrageous due to several player driven factors like others have pointed out. Such as moon minerals, hacks, cheats, and just general accumulation of wealth This is driving up prices like crazy.
Funny, the tech 1 side of things is quite reasonable. Gasp! I know why- players have much less influence on the costs of Tech 1 items. Almost any player can build himself a Tech 1 ship and we dont rely on 'Alliances' to provide these materials. We can get them ourselves
Tech 2 items are a different story. Huge powerblocs control this and see- most can agree its the players that's really screwing us.
No matter how you look at it. Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed is ruining these ingame economies
I really loved Guild Wars enforced ceilings for items
To the OP:
Once again, you blame "Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed" for *your* financial problems, but nowhere do I see that you present any evidence that proves that outside influences are the factors that affect you, or others in the game.
Without a display of proof, it's a lot more likely that your inability to handle the game mechanics is the actual problem.
What are people thought's on player run economy? Let's take a look at EVE Online which has one of the most advanced economies.
And like a real economy, over the years I have seen prices rise higher and higher for ships. I am now paying bout 55% more for tech 2 ships that I did previously. And recall- if you get this ship blown up you gotta go buy another. Ouch!
Where are people getting all this ingame money to buy this stuff????
IT's gotta be due to all these macros and cheats. I know in EVE, there is now a macro so advanced, it will farm everything for you and even hide your ship if another player might possibly attack.
I'm starting to think player run economy = GET SCREWED BY OTHER PLAYERS 24/7!
I guess for you WoW players the equivalent would be Auction House for rares. I dont know bout now but I remember pre-Battlegrounds we saw insane prices for tradeable rare Epics. Really sucks that players can accumulate all this ingame money from hacks, cheats, farmers, etc. Ruins the game for other players indirectly and we dont even realize how bad we're all getting screwed over by cheaters
I believe you are over reacting. In my guild we have a lot of players that are die hard players and even more that are super casual. The trick is, be in a guild and you don't have to worry so much about the AH or player controlled economy. Make it work for you. If a new player were to join WoW today (or any MMORPG that has been out a while) I would say be a pure gatherer until you get to max level so you can be sure of what you really want to do in game. That way you are making money off the economy instead of trying to level up a profession/buying mats. I've been around WoW from the beginning and rarely ever have over 5,000g total amoung all my characters. That is because I'm a casual player. Saying that, I have friends who do all 25 dailies every day (some on multiple toons) and spend a few hours farming on top of that. They have all the mounts you can buy in the game and can buy any epic off the AH that they want. Do I cry about it? No, they live in wow. You could to. You just have to learn to make the economy work for you instead of worrying about the cost of epics on the AH.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
Holy cow. Are you one of those people that thinks the government should just give everyone an equal allowence because its" fair?"
People like this scare me because they have the right to vote. How can you possibly think that gold farmers are something that only applies to games? The gold is there, whether or not I manually farm it or a chinese bot does its irelevent to you. As a 3rd party it really makes no difference to you. Guild Wars has -NO- economy.
Without a free market why even have an item system in a game? If everyone gets the same stuff, whats the point of even having items? Its based around the concept of scarcity. Take a basic economics class and you will understand that players don't arbitrarily set prices because they have super powers to scam you, that ridiculous. They sell based on competition and what makes a profit.
Stop acting like your failures are the fault of everyone else out trying to get you. Nobody likes to sound like a liberal.
First I've played several MMOs I started waaay back in the day with MuDs then I evolved to EQ and then to Anarchy Online which I played for about 5-6 years and still have an active sub. and then I went to WoW and then to Warhammer and I still play all three...
Yet you forget not all games allow adventuring and crafting, if you wanted to be top crafter in AO it came at the expense of your adventuring skills and vice versa.
It appears I've given the EVE players the impression I am incapable of making ISK. You know what- that is kinda true. I ahte making ISK in this game. I find the static pve content very dull. 'Ratting' is something I've done for yrs along with some trading,etc and I dont find it much fun.
Much rather pvp. But alas, I am forced to PVE. So I am already doing something I hate to do. Worse, this game economy is getting outrageous due to several player driven factors like others have pointed out. Such as moon minerals, hacks, cheats, and just general accumulation of wealth This is driving up prices like crazy.
Funny, the tech 1 side of things is quite reasonable. Gasp! I know why- players have much less influence on the costs of Tech 1 items. Almost any player can build himself a Tech 1 ship and we dont rely on 'Alliances' to provide these materials. We can get them ourselves
Tech 2 items are a different story. Huge powerblocs control this and see- most can agree its the players that's really screwing us.
No matter how you look at it. Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed is ruining these ingame economies
I really loved Guild Wars enforced ceilings for items
To the OP:
Once again, you blame "Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed" for *your* financial problems, but nowhere do I see that you present any evidence that proves that outside influences are the factors that affect you, or others in the game.
Without a display of proof, it's a lot more likely that your inability to handle the game mechanics is the actual problem.
Not a flame, just an observation......
Isn't this unfair how can I 'prove' how badly these ingame economies are skewed by hacks, cheats, exploits, macros, etc? Most EVE player will admit they know this macro that I speak of is real.
I can handle the ingame mechanics and make ISK easily. I live in 0.0 and have access to some of the best space in the game. Been playing for years. This is not due to me sucking. My total assets amount to quarter of a billion I believe (actually more like half but I dont feel like counting all these ships I got floating all over empire/0.0). I just hate to grind and this economy forces me to grind more and more with each passing year
What are people thought's on player run economy? Let's take a look at EVE Online which has one of the most advanced economies.
And like a real economy, over the years I have seen prices rise higher and higher for ships. I am now paying bout 55% more for tech 2 ships that I did previously. And recall- if you get this ship blown up you gotta go buy another. Ouch!
Where are people getting all this ingame money to buy this stuff????
IT's gotta be due to all these macros and cheats. I know in EVE, there is now a macro so advanced, it will farm everything for you and even hide your ship if another player might possibly attack.
I'm starting to think player run economy = GET SCREWED BY OTHER PLAYERS 24/7!
I guess for you WoW players the equivalent would be Auction House for rares. I dont know bout now but I remember pre-Battlegrounds we saw insane prices for tradeable rare Epics. Really sucks that players can accumulate all this ingame money from hacks, cheats, farmers, etc. Ruins the game for other players indirectly and we dont even realize how bad we're all getting screwed over by cheaters
Where have you been?? the Reason T2 is going up is that they pluged an Exploit that made it cheep to build them. when CCP stoped it we all predicted the prices would rise? did you miss that lolz?
Second where are you in the World you can take down lvl 4 missions in Empire kinda easy and that is a solid 35-40m risk free if you slavage and sell. also if you are ratting or moon mining or manafacturing or Trading with any skills in 0,0 you can bring in 100m in a few hours. Dosent look to me that you are even playing EVE...
It appears I've given the EVE players the impression I am incapable of making ISK. You know what- that is kinda true. I ahte making ISK in this game. I find the static pve content very dull. 'Ratting' is something I've done for yrs along with some trading,etc and I dont find it much fun.
Much rather pvp. But alas, I am forced to PVE. So I am already doing something I hate to do. Worse, this game economy is getting outrageous due to several player driven factors like others have pointed out. Such as moon minerals, hacks, cheats, and just general accumulation of wealth This is driving up prices like crazy.
Funny, the tech 1 side of things is quite reasonable. Gasp! I know why- players have much less influence on the costs of Tech 1 items. Almost any player can build himself a Tech 1 ship and we dont rely on 'Alliances' to provide these materials. We can get them ourselves
Tech 2 items are a different story. Huge powerblocs control this and see- most can agree its the players that's really screwing us.
No matter how you look at it. Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed is ruining these ingame economies
I really loved Guild Wars enforced ceilings for items
you understood when you joined EVE that it was a PVP game on all lvls right? you PVP in the market also if you missed that lolz. just donsent look to me that you are playing. But you are rather here, throwing out statements.
Now join a real alliance if you want to PVP for example. the one im In, in dont PVP mush, but those that do have corp insured ships making it mush less of a loss to you if you get shoot down. If you cant suport yourself on your own you need to join an alliance that suports you NO?
we suport up to capitals so you know. I dont lose that mush ISK if I get shoot down on PVP ops so like me I sugest you join a real pvp alliance that Insurse losses. or go Carebare and stay In EMPIRE and pvp on the market..
The thing about EvE is adapt adapt adapt or get THe F out...
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
Holy cow. Are you one of those people that thinks the government should just give everyone an equal allowence because its" fair?"
People like this scare me because they have the right to vote. How can you possibly think that gold farmers are something that only applies to games? The gold is there, whether or not I manually farm it or a chinese bot does its irelevent to you. As a 3rd party it really makes no difference to you. Guild Wars has -NO- economy.
Without a free market why even have an item system in a game? If everyone gets the same stuff, whats the point of even having items? Its based around the concept of scarcity. Take a basic economics class and you will understand that players don't arbitrarily set prices because they have super powers to scam you, that ridiculous. They sell based on competition and what makes a profit.
Stop acting like your failures are the fault of everyone else out trying to get you. Nobody likes to sound like a liberal.
Oh god, here we go again. I am talking about video games people, not real life. get this through your head. Video games are for escape, not to be your second job. I am all about free enterprise in the real world. I have no problems with that at all, but we are talking about video games here not about taking over someones company. Look, I been playing mmo's since back in the merridian 59 days and Muds before that, I know how mmo's work. I am not saying that you give everyone everything. I am saying that there is a flaw in the current design of video games by allowing player trading and player run economies. You can agree with me or not, I really dont care, as I have stated before I am in the minority on this because to many people want to stroke their epeen instead of just having fun in a video game.
Gold sellers are a concern to everyone. they inflate prices to way beyond the means of most casual players thus affecting their play and yours and mine. it does in fact affect everyone on the server that it happens on. Guild wars has no economy yet there are still gold sellers there, so that tells you right there that you are wrong and that they do have an economy, and what is it? its a player run economy.
You still have a free market, You can still sell all your warez, you simply can not get stinking rich by price gouging in a video game. You are still going to have everything you have now in a video game with the exception of gold farmers and greedy people taking over the economy. But alas, there are to many greedy and flat out assholes that hide behind the anonymity of the internet and nothing is more fun to them than trying to ruin the day of another player playing a game albeit in PVP trying to camp you till you log out or in player run economies where gold farmers and price gougers run rampant. If you read my other posts, you would be aware of this isnt something personal trying to scam me, They do this to everyone in the game. So until such time as a developer understand that there is a desperate need for change in economies, the casual player is simply doomed to not afford much of the stuff they need as they level up in their fantasy world of choice.
I think we can tell who here makes some cash on the side playing videogames here. A few might be some full blown farmers. Why else would a person so vehemently defend a full player run economy with no limitations?
Before farmers, it was cool buying and selling from players. Now, I couldn't give a &^^#@ anymore. When prices for simple things become so inflated that you either BUY the gold or cease to have a life, because you have to farm it yourself, the game is ruined in that respect. As long as developers allow NPC vendors to sell every applicable item in the game at set prices, its always fair. Let players undercut the vendors so theres still that minigame available for crafters. Farmers and the lazy idiots who buy the gold have all killed themselves and everyone else in the process. I guess the farmers aren't suffering as long as the idiots keep paying them=) Sad.
It depends on the game. If its like Eve, let the players fight it out. Everyone knows that game is more a money simulator in a scifi setting, than an actual videogame. If its something like WOW, don't allow people to buy anything of real impiortance. Make them DO SOMETHING adventurous in the spirit of the game to earn whatever if happens to be. Want that cool mount, you have to accomplish something or do the quest. Don't just let people buy 1mil gold and buy it outright. Its lame.
I think we can tell who here makes some cash on the side playing videogames here. A few might be some full blown farmers. Why else would a person so vehemently defend a full player run economy with no limitations?
Just amazing, what is it that prevents you from seeing that the "limits" you are talking about = telling other players what they can charge for their time? What gives you, or any other player for that matter, the "right" to set a market price for an item that NO ONE is forcing you to buy?
Everything you are talking about buying is a luxury item to make your gameplay more rewarding, faster or more efficient; not something you must have to play the game. Take EVE for example, someone who is making those T2 modules is spending significant amounts of their time buying, moving and combining materials - often with significant risk of loss. They spent months of training time to get the skills to optimize that production and probably invested hundreds of millions of ISK in start up costs. So whay is all that worth nothing to you, just because you want to buy it cheap? Because *you* are being greedy and totally self-absorbed. Their time and effort is worth nothing, they should just be glad you even let them play your game, right?
I think we can tell who here makes some cash on the side playing videogames here. A few might be some full blown farmers. Why else would a person so vehemently defend a full player run economy with no limitations?
Just amazing, what is it that prevents you from seeing that the "limits" you are talking about = telling other players what they can charge for their time? What gives you, or any other player for that matter, the "right" to set a market price for an item that NO ONE is forcing you to buy?
Everything you are talking about buying is a luxury item to make your gameplay more rewarding, faster or more efficient; not something you must have to play the game. Take EVE for example, someone who is making those T2 modules is spending significant amounts of their time buying, moving and combining materials - often with significant risk of loss. They spent months of training time to get the skills to optimize that production and probably invested hundreds of millions of ISK in start up costs. So whay is all that worth nothing to you, just because you want to buy it cheap? Because *you* are being greedy and totally self-absorbed. Their time and effort is worth nothing, they should just be glad you even let them play your game, right?
Thats the exact opposite of what I have been trying to say. Players believe (especially crafters) that their time is worth much more than adventurers time when in fact it is not and should not. You say who are we to set limits such as that? Well it isnt us, if it would be anyone it would be the development team of whatever game. Are you going to come back to the devs with such a statement as Who do you think you are telling us what our time is worth? How do you think they would respond? I can only guess at the fact they would ask you who the hell you are telling them how to write their game! For the record, I dont lump Eve with most of the mmo's simply because it was designed from the ground up to be a real world simulator for economics. But NONE of the other mmo's out there are set that way. It is obvious from most of the mmo's that economy and crafting have/are usually more of an after thought while designing the game.
Now if we go by my new friend the elitist, He says that guilds will require you to have certain items and certain crafting skills before you will even be allowed into those guilds. Apparently these things are not a luxury, they are a requirement in many cases.So I guess that I could reverse your statement back to you asking who do you think you are, robbing me of being able to do something in a game because you want to be greedy and make items that only the elite or gold buyers can afford? Now that sounded stupid didnt it? Sorry to say, your statement sounded the exact same way. Please tell me why it is so wrong to have an economy where the devs of their own game have set how much you can sell an item for? No matter what, you are making a profit, your just not able to screw over your fellow players? Is that really so wrong? Well, in eve it is because it is an actual game where theivery and backstabbing is actually encouraged, but that is not the main stream MMO way.
Someone said earlier in this thread that gold farmers do not affect YOU with what they do. I want to give an account where a gold farmers actions actually did affect serveral people in the group I was in. This was in wow, We were doing a 10 man raid 3 of us from my guild and the rest pick ups. We got about half way through the raid when we noticed that one of the folks never said a word. I think the 3 of us was the only ones who noticed at the time and we were just about to question the silent rogue when a purple shield dropped. There was 3 warriors and a shaman (me) who all could have used that shield and the group decided to let us roll on the item because like most groups that we started, it was always need before greed. Anyways, just as we started rolling on the item, the rogue scoops it up and disbands from the group and leaves. Not 20 minutes later when we got done with the raid, we get to the Ah and oh look, that shield was up there by the rogue that stole it from the group. he was in fact a gold farmer and did directly affect us by stealing the loot so that he could make gold to sell for real world money. I got many many stories of how gold farmers have affected me personally in games. People take gold farmers to lightly and really just dont see how damaging they are to an already bad economy for games.
You say your losing a freedom because you cant trade with another person. What are you really losing here? You can still sell everything in the game, you simply cant trade it and cant be greedy. So what you really lose is people cant be ass's when it comes to being greedy.
Lol, who defines greedy? You?
If I wanted to play in a socialist utopia I'd log in to Free Realms or move to the United States.
For the mentally challenged, here are some basic life facts: everyone is not created equal, some people are smarter/stronger/faster than others, and your $15 a month is your opportunity to amuse yourself in whatever way you see fit. It is not a guarantee that things will be 'fair' and that you'll have fun.
As someone earlier in the thread stated, just because someone has more/is better than you doesn't mean they hacked or cheated to get there. It means that you're spending too much time envying and not enough time working.
I want to give an account where a gold farmers actions actually did affect serveral people in the group I was in. This was in wow, We were doing a 10 man raid 3 of us from my guild and the rest pick ups. We got about half way through the raid when we noticed that one of the folks never said a word. I think the 3 of us was the only ones who noticed at the time and we were just about to question the silent rogue when a purple shield dropped. There was 3 warriors and a shaman (me) who all could have used that shield and the group decided to let us roll on the item because like most groups that we started, it was always need before greed. Anyways, just as we started rolling on the item, the rogue scoops it up and disbands from the group and leaves. Not 20 minutes later when we got done with the raid, we get to the Ah and oh look, that shield was up there by the rogue that stole it from the group. he was in fact a gold farmer and did directly affect us by stealing the loot so that he could make gold to sell for real world money. I got many many stories of how gold farmers have affected me personally in games. People take gold farmers to lightly and really just dont see how damaging they are to an already bad economy for games.
I just...Look, I know I'm picking nits here but...
A) I call BS. There's no shield in game both a warrior and a shaman can use. Mind you there IS a BoE shield you as a shammy could use and I presume that's it... , the whole thing is your raid's fault for not setting a loot master, or letting someone you don't trust LM.
As for your questions about economy...There's a basic rule to economics called supply and demand. You demand, someone supplies. Now, in a capitalist economy, that means that person, smart guy that he is, realizes that you'll pay whatever he charges. So he charges what he wants.
Solution: Don't pay. Buy from a cheaper source. Work with other crafters, buy the mats yourself, whatever. By no means should a dev set price caps. YOU, as the buyer, should control the market by your purchasing. I hear so many gripes from MMO players about Sellers controlling the market but...you control the sellers. If you play smart. If you don't, it's no one's problem but your own. You can't fix stupid.
Its all about suply and demand. thats it. if x amound of players are lazy and play 200% prize for someting thats how the prize gona be. if 90% refuzes to pay above x% profit then the prize gona drop.
Eve only was subject to a long running exploid taht made the t2 prizes drop to about T1 prizes. now its gona and stuff gets harder to get so prizes go up again.
yes people do macro ore and thats about it. ore needs to be sold so more macro players= more suply = lower prize.
Pve players generate the non exsisting money that goos to new parts and thus to the economics int he game.
its a round system. the ISK amound slowly increases as sinks are lower then the incomes .
surplus Isk goes to guild projects like starbases and big bad boom boom ship.
Are other people screwing you over.. yea there are a few salesman around. but for the main part your screwing yourself over.. just as in RL.
Solution: Don't pay. Buy from a cheaper source. Work with other crafters, buy the mats yourself, whatever. By no means should a dev set price caps. YOU, as the buyer, should control the market by your purchasing. I hear so many gripes from MMO players about Sellers controlling the market but...you control the sellers. If you play smart. If you don't, it's no one's problem but your own. You can't fix stupid.
QFT.
If the concept of a player-driven economy is such an anathema to your enjoyment, find yourself a single player game, preferably one with cheat codes to give yourself unlimited gold. What's next, PVP isn't fair so now devs should set a cap on how many hit points you can lose to a player?
Many MMOs these days reward the time-challenged (and in some cases, skill-challenged) player by making almost everything accessible. EVE is different, but even so you still don't need gobs of ISK to compete. You won't be able to buy the latest and greatest, but the beauty of a skill-based game that relies on tactics is that it doesn't matter. And honestly, if you don't want to put in the time (or whatever the game requires) then you don't deserve the latest and greatest, period.
I'll never understand why people think that they're automatically entitled to equality in a computer game. It doesn't matter if its a game, real life, or whatever: you get out what you put in. People that, for whatever reason, have more time/brainpower/money to spend on a video game should naturally get more for their time/brainpower/money than those who don't.
Welcome to the world. It isn't the problem. You are.
I want to give an account where a gold farmers actions actually did affect serveral people in the group I was in. This was in wow, We were doing a 10 man raid 3 of us from my guild and the rest pick ups. We got about half way through the raid when we noticed that one of the folks never said a word. I think the 3 of us was the only ones who noticed at the time and we were just about to question the silent rogue when a purple shield dropped. There was 3 warriors and a shaman (me) who all could have used that shield and the group decided to let us roll on the item because like most groups that we started, it was always need before greed. Anyways, just as we started rolling on the item, the rogue scoops it up and disbands from the group and leaves. Not 20 minutes later when we got done with the raid, we get to the Ah and oh look, that shield was up there by the rogue that stole it from the group. he was in fact a gold farmer and did directly affect us by stealing the loot so that he could make gold to sell for real world money. I got many many stories of how gold farmers have affected me personally in games. People take gold farmers to lightly and really just dont see how damaging they are to an already bad economy for games.
I just...Look, I know I'm picking nits here but...
A) I call BS. There's no shield in game both a warrior and a shaman can use. Mind you there IS a BoE shield you as a shammy could use and I presume that's it... , the whole thing is your raid's fault for not setting a loot master, or letting someone you don't trust LM.
As for your questions about economy...There's a basic rule to economics called supply and demand. You demand, someone supplies. Now, in a capitalist economy, that means that person, smart guy that he is, realizes that you'll pay whatever he charges. So he charges what he wants.
Solution: Don't pay. Buy from a cheaper source. Work with other crafters, buy the mats yourself, whatever. By no means should a dev set price caps. YOU, as the buyer, should control the market by your purchasing. I hear so many gripes from MMO players about Sellers controlling the market but...you control the sellers. If you play smart. If you don't, it's no one's problem but your own. You can't fix stupid.
A) wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html seriously what? Almost every shield in the game up to the time I quit was usable by both shaman and warrior. So obviously you dont know much about shaman. As for your right, it was our fault for not setting a master looter. We were going on the honor system. Some of us still believe there is hope for mankind yet.
Again with the real world economics. I know all about supply and demand. again we are talking about a video game where real world politics and economy doesn't belong.
So you say by no means should a dev set price caps. Elaborate further please. Why would this be a bad thing? The only thing this does is keep people from being greedy AND stops gold selling in its place.
You say that we control the sellers. No we dont. We never have. When you have a group of folks that can corner the market and keep everybodys stuff bought up and resold at their prices, there is not much you can do. You say buy from a cheaper source, well that sure sounds easy doesnt it. But its not. you can spam for hours trying to find someone that you can get to craft for you at a resonable price and never get a response. Auction houses have, in many ways, taken away the ability to find good reasonable crafters. I can honestly say this, the last game that had crafting in it (and it wasn't much) that you were able to find quality people to do the work for you was in EQ1. Crafters there wasn't nearly as bad as todays mmo players. Of course, back then, the only need for crafted stuff was jewlery and for certain people armor or weapon crafting for their quests. Now a days there are lots more stuff that are needed because they wanted to give crafters a bigger part in the game, but it didnt quite work out that way. Kinda like how Verant envisioned EQ as a dungeon crawl, instead, it turned out to be camp every mob 24/7.
And like a real economy, over the years I have seen prices rise higher and higher for ships. I am now paying bout 55% more for tech 2 ships that I did previously. And recall- if you get this ship blown up you gotta go buy another. Ouch Where are people getting all this ingame money to buy this stuff???? IT's gotta be due to all these macros and cheats. I know in EVE, there is now a macro so advanced, it will farm everything for you and even hide your ship if another player might possibly attack. .... Really sucks that players can accumulate all this ingame money from hacks, cheats, farmers, etc. Ruins the game for other players indirectly and we dont even realize how bad we're all getting screwed over by cheaters
The T2 stuff became so expensive, because CCP fixed an exploit/hack that spawned the basic components to produce T2.
Macros and farmes lower the prices for minerals, fuel and other resources. So actually they are an advantage for players with "financial problems" like you.
Though, they are a disatvantage for all the miners, traders and producers out there who make their isk out of that.
And actually... the T2 prices went down. Before invention was introduced, Cap Rechargers II costed 10 M instead of 800 K like nowadays. so stop whining.
Doomsday, honestly why don't you just say that you're irritated that other players can affect your game experience? It'd be simpler and closer to the truth than the walls of non-sensical attempts at justification you've made thus far.
The only thing separating you from these 'evil crafters controlling the market' is that they've put in more time/effort. They started at the same noob level you did.
Solution: Don't pay. Buy from a cheaper source. Work with other crafters, buy the mats yourself, whatever. By no means should a dev set price caps. YOU, as the buyer, should control the market by your purchasing. I hear so many gripes from MMO players about Sellers controlling the market but...you control the sellers. If you play smart. If you don't, it's no one's problem but your own. You can't fix stupid.
QFT.
If the concept of a player-driven economy is such an anathema to your enjoyment, find yourself a single player game, preferably one with cheat codes to give yourself unlimited gold. What's next, PVP isn't fair so now devs should set a cap on how many hit points you can lose to a player?
Many MMOs these days reward the time-challenged (and in some cases, skill-challenged) player by making almost everything accessible. EVE is different, but even so you still don't need gobs of ISK to compete. You won't be able to buy the latest and greatest, but the beauty of a skill-based game that relies on tactics is that it doesn't matter. And honestly, if you don't want to put in the time (or whatever the game requires) then you don't deserve the latest and greatest, period.
I'll never understand why people think that they're automatically entitled to equality in a computer game. It doesn't matter if its a game, real life, or whatever: you get out what you put in. People that, for whatever reason, have more time/brainpower/money to spend on a video game should naturally get more for their time/brainpower/money than those who don't.
Welcome to the world. It isn't the problem. You are.
Try harder.
Dude, I have already stated that Eve is pretty much its own entity and thus doesn't follow standard MMO faire. I would not even try and challange anything in that game because as I have stated it is the one and only true game designed for actual real world economics.
I have no problems with people having more time to play a game than I do. They are going to get stuff I dont get, I have no problem with that. The problem of how to get rid of gold farmers that ruin economies does in fact affect everyone in the game. Until such time that a game comes out that can stop it in its tracks,We are left with what we currently have and its obvious it does not work well. So I instead of just complaining about am offering my opinion on how to solve that problem. the side benefit that it eliminates greed in the process is just a wonderful added bonus.
Aw, boo hoo. Doomsday, honestly why don't you just say that you're irritated that other players can affect your game experience? It'd be simpler and closer to the truth than the walls of non-sensical attempts at justification you've made thus far. The only thing separating you from these 'evil crafters controlling the market' is that they've put in more time/effort. They started at the same noob level you did.
Why so sad Veritas? Are you crying because you couldn't come up with a logical and well thought out response so you decided to see if you could just insult me into submission? I have stated that I am in the minority on how I feel about crafting. I am also pretty sure that nobody yet has actually come up with a valid reason as to why having devs control the economy is a bad thing. The best I have gotten from anyone is that its bad. The verdict is still out on if its only bad because those that are disagreeing are the same ones that take advantage of the current player run economy problems. I have listed out several problems that I personally have ran across in different mmos and even proposed a solution. What have you offered? You got any ideas how to fix gold sellers and "evil crafters controlling the market" or do you want to just troll those that are at least offering up ideas on how to fix problems in todays mmo's?
Comments
I always strive to play my character to the best of its ability. Everyone I have played with could attest to that fact. However, greedy people that want to charge an arm and a leg for stuff that you can't afford does hinder that ability somewhat.
Thanks for the DKP thing, I was trying to remember what it was called and that was it.
Have you played other mmo's besides WoW? Tradeskills in most mmo's are a lot more involved than what it was in wow. Fishing was actually easy to get up. A little boring for those that are looking for fast paced action all the time but still easy none the less even on a pvp server. most tradeskills in wow are extremely easy to level and take little effort (there are some exceptions to that) compared to many other mmo's. And yet, even in wow, your still limited to how many tradeskills you can know. Which means that at some point you are going to have to rely on other crafters for stuff and thats when it goes down hill.
As for big guilds needing to put in a dkp system because of greed, I disagree with. My guild was doing great. the only people complaining was the guild leaders. Not because they didnt get the stuff they wanted, but because they felt that others should get their stuff first. The others were fine with how things were going but the guild leaders just couldnt get it through their thick heads that the rest of us was fine and that we actually enjoyed what we were doing and that they knew best for the rest of us. Thats the start of a greedy guild that will fall. Oh, and they did to.
So I can see where you comments are coming from, you do have an elitest attitude and thats totally cool and all, but you have to realize that the general population of mmo's are not that way and just want to enjoy their time in the virtual world before they have to come back out to the real world and dont want to have to deal with real world economics or politics in a video game. I can see why you would be opposed to the econimic system that I talked about, it could shorten your epeen stature in the game and most elitests dont like that.
First I've played several MMOs I started waaay back in the day with MuDs then I evolved to EQ and then to Anarchy Online which I played for about 5-6 years and still have an active sub. and then I went to WoW and then to Warhammer and I still play all three...
I'd be almost willing to bet that your Guild leader were getting it coming and going, there are people that will complain in private and deny it in public. The pain about is there is no perfect loot system, someone almost always feels screwed.
And it just seems since you don't have the tenacity to build your trade skills you want he rest of the community to pay for it by taking away the player ran market. Several people in this post have stated that your game play will change if you simply do the work. Tradeskills are not just there to make money from other players.
Also my e-peen will endure I assure you. I view myself as a quite skilled played and for that reason I will do well in an MMO universe because part of being an elitist is learning what you did wrong and correcting on it.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
It appears I've given the EVE players the impression I am incapable of making ISK. You know what- that is kinda true. I ahte making ISK in this game. I find the static pve content very dull. 'Ratting' is something I've done for yrs along with some trading,etc and I dont find it much fun.
Much rather pvp. But alas, I am forced to PVE. So I am already doing something I hate to do. Worse, this game economy is getting outrageous due to several player driven factors like others have pointed out. Such as moon minerals, hacks, cheats, and just general accumulation of wealth
This is driving up prices like crazy.
Funny, the tech 1 side of things is quite reasonable. Gasp! I know why- players have much less influence on the costs of Tech 1 items. Almost any player can build himself a Tech 1 ship and we dont rely on 'Alliances' to provide these materials. We can get them ourselves
Tech 2 items are a different story. Huge powerblocs control this and see- most can agree its the players that's really screwing us.
No matter how you look at it. Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed is ruining these ingame economies
I really loved Guild Wars enforced ceilings for items
Okay, you sicken me enough that I am going to say it plainly. YOU and the people like you are the greedy ones and the problem here. You want things that other players create through their efforts and time in game, but are unwilling to pay for them on a free market. While you are unwilling or unable to do the work to make the items yourself, you sit back and insist that those who are making them are charging too much.
No one is forcing you to buy these things if you think they are too expensive. You could just do without or *gasp* make them yourself if it is soo easy and the "crafters" are all such greedy SOBs, but no. You'd rather sit back and whine about how unfair it is that some other player of the game won't spend their time and efforts slaving away to make you stuff at a price you like. What an amazing display of self-centered behavior.
....again....I think some of the prices...well ...a lot of the prices are outrageous but that is the cost of the other persons time,money and materials...not only of the item itself...but the cost of getting to the level of crafting that allows them to make the desired item. Raising your craft skill can cost arse-loads of E-Ching..if you're in a hurry...or many arse-loads of real time hours..if you prefer to farm for materials. If you want to make money without the work ..just choose gathering skills and auction the materials. Collect as you go and cash in. At least in WOW...i've made a mint off of skins..cloth...herbs (good for 2 professions now) and especially mining...cause the metal ores/bars are used by so many professions.
Unlike one suggestion...I don't think I'd want the auction house closed...although the regulation of amounts charged might be nice if a realistic formula is used. Economy and banking(although you wouldn't know it these days) were supposed to be regulated. I think this would work. I have a problem with eliminating trading....perhaps a limit to who can trade would be favorable.. Guildies should be able to trade..since two of the reasons you form a guild is for resource pooling and access to other proffesional goods. You should also be able to trade with your account/alts and maybe limited trade in groups..only recent drops that are acquired from the grouping session but once you leave the group..you are out of the running. These might be a nightmare to code....but they are some ideas.
To the OP:
Once again, you blame "Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed" for *your* financial problems, but nowhere do I see that you present any evidence that proves that outside influences are the factors that affect you, or others in the game.
Without a display of proof, it's a lot more likely that your inability to handle the game mechanics is the actual problem.
Not a flame, just an observation......
I believe you are over reacting. In my guild we have a lot of players that are die hard players and even more that are super casual. The trick is, be in a guild and you don't have to worry so much about the AH or player controlled economy. Make it work for you. If a new player were to join WoW today (or any MMORPG that has been out a while) I would say be a pure gatherer until you get to max level so you can be sure of what you really want to do in game. That way you are making money off the economy instead of trying to level up a profession/buying mats. I've been around WoW from the beginning and rarely ever have over 5,000g total amoung all my characters. That is because I'm a casual player. Saying that, I have friends who do all 25 dailies every day (some on multiple toons) and spend a few hours farming on top of that. They have all the mounts you can buy in the game and can buy any epic off the AH that they want. Do I cry about it? No, they live in wow. You could to. You just have to learn to make the economy work for you instead of worrying about the cost of epics on the AH.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
Holy cow. Are you one of those people that thinks the government should just give everyone an equal allowence because its" fair?"
People like this scare me because they have the right to vote. How can you possibly think that gold farmers are something that only applies to games? The gold is there, whether or not I manually farm it or a chinese bot does its irelevent to you. As a 3rd party it really makes no difference to you. Guild Wars has -NO- economy.
Without a free market why even have an item system in a game? If everyone gets the same stuff, whats the point of even having items? Its based around the concept of scarcity. Take a basic economics class and you will understand that players don't arbitrarily set prices because they have super powers to scam you, that ridiculous. They sell based on competition and what makes a profit.
Stop acting like your failures are the fault of everyone else out trying to get you. Nobody likes to sound like a liberal.
-------------------------
First I've played several MMOs I started waaay back in the day with MuDs then I evolved to EQ and then to Anarchy Online which I played for about 5-6 years and still have an active sub. and then I went to WoW and then to Warhammer and I still play all three...
Yet you forget not all games allow adventuring and crafting, if you wanted to be top crafter in AO it came at the expense of your adventuring skills and vice versa.
To the OP:
Once again, you blame "Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed" for *your* financial problems, but nowhere do I see that you present any evidence that proves that outside influences are the factors that affect you, or others in the game.
Without a display of proof, it's a lot more likely that your inability to handle the game mechanics is the actual problem.
Not a flame, just an observation......
Isn't this unfair how can I 'prove' how badly these ingame economies are skewed by hacks, cheats, exploits, macros, etc? Most EVE player will admit they know this macro that I speak of is real.
I can handle the ingame mechanics and make ISK easily. I live in 0.0 and have access to some of the best space in the game. Been playing for years. This is not due to me sucking. My total assets amount to quarter of a billion I believe (actually more like half but I dont feel like counting all these ships I got floating all over empire/0.0). I just hate to grind and this economy forces me to grind more and more with each passing year
Where have you been?? the Reason T2 is going up is that they pluged an Exploit that made it cheep to build them. when CCP stoped it we all predicted the prices would rise? did you miss that lolz?
Second where are you in the World you can take down lvl 4 missions in Empire kinda easy and that is a solid 35-40m risk free if you slavage and sell. also if you are ratting or moon mining or manafacturing or Trading with any skills in 0,0 you can bring in 100m in a few hours. Dosent look to me that you are even playing EVE...
you understood when you joined EVE that it was a PVP game on all lvls right? you PVP in the market also if you missed that lolz. just donsent look to me that you are playing. But you are rather here, throwing out statements.
Now join a real alliance if you want to PVP for example. the one im In, in dont PVP mush, but those that do have corp insured ships making it mush less of a loss to you if you get shoot down. If you cant suport yourself on your own you need to join an alliance that suports you NO?
we suport up to capitals so you know. I dont lose that mush ISK if I get shoot down on PVP ops so like me I sugest you join a real pvp alliance that Insurse losses. or go Carebare and stay In EMPIRE and pvp on the market..
The thing about EvE is adapt adapt adapt or get THe F out...
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
Holy cow. Are you one of those people that thinks the government should just give everyone an equal allowence because its" fair?"
People like this scare me because they have the right to vote. How can you possibly think that gold farmers are something that only applies to games? The gold is there, whether or not I manually farm it or a chinese bot does its irelevent to you. As a 3rd party it really makes no difference to you. Guild Wars has -NO- economy.
Without a free market why even have an item system in a game? If everyone gets the same stuff, whats the point of even having items? Its based around the concept of scarcity. Take a basic economics class and you will understand that players don't arbitrarily set prices because they have super powers to scam you, that ridiculous. They sell based on competition and what makes a profit.
Stop acting like your failures are the fault of everyone else out trying to get you. Nobody likes to sound like a liberal.
Oh god, here we go again. I am talking about video games people, not real life. get this through your head. Video games are for escape, not to be your second job. I am all about free enterprise in the real world. I have no problems with that at all, but we are talking about video games here not about taking over someones company. Look, I been playing mmo's since back in the merridian 59 days and Muds before that, I know how mmo's work. I am not saying that you give everyone everything. I am saying that there is a flaw in the current design of video games by allowing player trading and player run economies. You can agree with me or not, I really dont care, as I have stated before I am in the minority on this because to many people want to stroke their epeen instead of just having fun in a video game.
Gold sellers are a concern to everyone. they inflate prices to way beyond the means of most casual players thus affecting their play and yours and mine. it does in fact affect everyone on the server that it happens on. Guild wars has no economy yet there are still gold sellers there, so that tells you right there that you are wrong and that they do have an economy, and what is it? its a player run economy.
You still have a free market, You can still sell all your warez, you simply can not get stinking rich by price gouging in a video game. You are still going to have everything you have now in a video game with the exception of gold farmers and greedy people taking over the economy. But alas, there are to many greedy and flat out assholes that hide behind the anonymity of the internet and nothing is more fun to them than trying to ruin the day of another player playing a game albeit in PVP trying to camp you till you log out or in player run economies where gold farmers and price gougers run rampant. If you read my other posts, you would be aware of this isnt something personal trying to scam me, They do this to everyone in the game. So until such time as a developer understand that there is a desperate need for change in economies, the casual player is simply doomed to not afford much of the stuff they need as they level up in their fantasy world of choice.
I think we can tell who here makes some cash on the side playing videogames here. A few might be some full blown farmers. Why else would a person so vehemently defend a full player run economy with no limitations?
Before farmers, it was cool buying and selling from players. Now, I couldn't give a &^^#@ anymore. When prices for simple things become so inflated that you either BUY the gold or cease to have a life, because you have to farm it yourself, the game is ruined in that respect. As long as developers allow NPC vendors to sell every applicable item in the game at set prices, its always fair. Let players undercut the vendors so theres still that minigame available for crafters. Farmers and the lazy idiots who buy the gold have all killed themselves and everyone else in the process. I guess the farmers aren't suffering as long as the idiots keep paying them=) Sad.
It depends on the game. If its like Eve, let the players fight it out. Everyone knows that game is more a money simulator in a scifi setting, than an actual videogame. If its something like WOW, don't allow people to buy anything of real impiortance. Make them DO SOMETHING adventurous in the spirit of the game to earn whatever if happens to be. Want that cool mount, you have to accomplish something or do the quest. Don't just let people buy 1mil gold and buy it outright. Its lame.
Just amazing, what is it that prevents you from seeing that the "limits" you are talking about = telling other players what they can charge for their time? What gives you, or any other player for that matter, the "right" to set a market price for an item that NO ONE is forcing you to buy?
Everything you are talking about buying is a luxury item to make your gameplay more rewarding, faster or more efficient; not something you must have to play the game. Take EVE for example, someone who is making those T2 modules is spending significant amounts of their time buying, moving and combining materials - often with significant risk of loss. They spent months of training time to get the skills to optimize that production and probably invested hundreds of millions of ISK in start up costs. So whay is all that worth nothing to you, just because you want to buy it cheap? Because *you* are being greedy and totally self-absorbed. Their time and effort is worth nothing, they should just be glad you even let them play your game, right?
Just amazing, what is it that prevents you from seeing that the "limits" you are talking about = telling other players what they can charge for their time? What gives you, or any other player for that matter, the "right" to set a market price for an item that NO ONE is forcing you to buy?
Everything you are talking about buying is a luxury item to make your gameplay more rewarding, faster or more efficient; not something you must have to play the game. Take EVE for example, someone who is making those T2 modules is spending significant amounts of their time buying, moving and combining materials - often with significant risk of loss. They spent months of training time to get the skills to optimize that production and probably invested hundreds of millions of ISK in start up costs. So whay is all that worth nothing to you, just because you want to buy it cheap? Because *you* are being greedy and totally self-absorbed. Their time and effort is worth nothing, they should just be glad you even let them play your game, right?
Thats the exact opposite of what I have been trying to say. Players believe (especially crafters) that their time is worth much more than adventurers time when in fact it is not and should not. You say who are we to set limits such as that? Well it isnt us, if it would be anyone it would be the development team of whatever game. Are you going to come back to the devs with such a statement as Who do you think you are telling us what our time is worth? How do you think they would respond? I can only guess at the fact they would ask you who the hell you are telling them how to write their game! For the record, I dont lump Eve with most of the mmo's simply because it was designed from the ground up to be a real world simulator for economics. But NONE of the other mmo's out there are set that way. It is obvious from most of the mmo's that economy and crafting have/are usually more of an after thought while designing the game.
Now if we go by my new friend the elitist, He says that guilds will require you to have certain items and certain crafting skills before you will even be allowed into those guilds. Apparently these things are not a luxury, they are a requirement in many cases.So I guess that I could reverse your statement back to you asking who do you think you are, robbing me of being able to do something in a game because you want to be greedy and make items that only the elite or gold buyers can afford? Now that sounded stupid didnt it? Sorry to say, your statement sounded the exact same way. Please tell me why it is so wrong to have an economy where the devs of their own game have set how much you can sell an item for? No matter what, you are making a profit, your just not able to screw over your fellow players? Is that really so wrong? Well, in eve it is because it is an actual game where theivery and backstabbing is actually encouraged, but that is not the main stream MMO way.
Someone said earlier in this thread that gold farmers do not affect YOU with what they do. I want to give an account where a gold farmers actions actually did affect serveral people in the group I was in. This was in wow, We were doing a 10 man raid 3 of us from my guild and the rest pick ups. We got about half way through the raid when we noticed that one of the folks never said a word. I think the 3 of us was the only ones who noticed at the time and we were just about to question the silent rogue when a purple shield dropped. There was 3 warriors and a shaman (me) who all could have used that shield and the group decided to let us roll on the item because like most groups that we started, it was always need before greed. Anyways, just as we started rolling on the item, the rogue scoops it up and disbands from the group and leaves. Not 20 minutes later when we got done with the raid, we get to the Ah and oh look, that shield was up there by the rogue that stole it from the group. he was in fact a gold farmer and did directly affect us by stealing the loot so that he could make gold to sell for real world money. I got many many stories of how gold farmers have affected me personally in games. People take gold farmers to lightly and really just dont see how damaging they are to an already bad economy for games.
Lol, who defines greedy? You?
If I wanted to play in a socialist utopia I'd log in to Free Realms or move to the United States.
For the mentally challenged, here are some basic life facts: everyone is not created equal, some people are smarter/stronger/faster than others, and your $15 a month is your opportunity to amuse yourself in whatever way you see fit. It is not a guarantee that things will be 'fair' and that you'll have fun.
As someone earlier in the thread stated, just because someone has more/is better than you doesn't mean they hacked or cheated to get there. It means that you're spending too much time envying and not enough time working.
Isnt it the same in real life?
If you think an Ipod costs 350$, study economics and you'll see that ripping people of a science, an art, a way of lie, a mantra...
The intelligent ones make money, the rest flip burgers way of life.
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
I just...Look, I know I'm picking nits here but...
A) I call BS. There's no shield in game both a warrior and a shaman can use. Mind you there IS a BoE shield you as a shammy could use and I presume that's it...
, the whole thing is your raid's fault for not setting a loot master, or letting someone you don't trust LM.
As for your questions about economy...There's a basic rule to economics called supply and demand. You demand, someone supplies. Now, in a capitalist economy, that means that person, smart guy that he is, realizes that you'll pay whatever he charges. So he charges what he wants.
Solution: Don't pay. Buy from a cheaper source. Work with other crafters, buy the mats yourself, whatever. By no means should a dev set price caps. YOU, as the buyer, should control the market by your purchasing. I hear so many gripes from MMO players about Sellers controlling the market but...you control the sellers. If you play smart. If you don't, it's no one's problem but your own. You can't fix stupid.
Its all about suply and demand. thats it. if x amound of players are lazy and play 200% prize for someting thats how the prize gona be. if 90% refuzes to pay above x% profit then the prize gona drop.
Eve only was subject to a long running exploid taht made the t2 prizes drop to about T1 prizes. now its gona and stuff gets harder to get so prizes go up again.
yes people do macro ore and thats about it. ore needs to be sold so more macro players= more suply = lower prize.
Pve players generate the non exsisting money that goos to new parts and thus to the economics int he game.
its a round system. the ISK amound slowly increases as sinks are lower then the incomes .
surplus Isk goes to guild projects like starbases and big bad boom boom ship.
Are other people screwing you over.. yea there are a few salesman around. but for the main part your screwing yourself over.. just as in RL.
QFT.
If the concept of a player-driven economy is such an anathema to your enjoyment, find yourself a single player game, preferably one with cheat codes to give yourself unlimited gold. What's next, PVP isn't fair so now devs should set a cap on how many hit points you can lose to a player?
Many MMOs these days reward the time-challenged (and in some cases, skill-challenged) player by making almost everything accessible. EVE is different, but even so you still don't need gobs of ISK to compete. You won't be able to buy the latest and greatest, but the beauty of a skill-based game that relies on tactics is that it doesn't matter. And honestly, if you don't want to put in the time (or whatever the game requires) then you don't deserve the latest and greatest, period.
I'll never understand why people think that they're automatically entitled to equality in a computer game. It doesn't matter if its a game, real life, or whatever: you get out what you put in. People that, for whatever reason, have more time/brainpower/money to spend on a video game should naturally get more for their time/brainpower/money than those who don't.
Welcome to the world. It isn't the problem. You are.
Try harder.
I just...Look, I know I'm picking nits here but...
A) I call BS. There's no shield in game both a warrior and a shaman can use. Mind you there IS a BoE shield you as a shammy could use and I presume that's it...
, the whole thing is your raid's fault for not setting a loot master, or letting someone you don't trust LM.
As for your questions about economy...There's a basic rule to economics called supply and demand. You demand, someone supplies. Now, in a capitalist economy, that means that person, smart guy that he is, realizes that you'll pay whatever he charges. So he charges what he wants.
Solution: Don't pay. Buy from a cheaper source. Work with other crafters, buy the mats yourself, whatever. By no means should a dev set price caps. YOU, as the buyer, should control the market by your purchasing. I hear so many gripes from MMO players about Sellers controlling the market but...you control the sellers. If you play smart. If you don't, it's no one's problem but your own. You can't fix stupid.
A) wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html seriously what? Almost every shield in the game up to the time I quit was usable by both shaman and warrior. So obviously you dont know much about shaman. As for
your right, it was our fault for not setting a master looter. We were going on the honor system. Some of us still believe there is hope for mankind yet.
Again with the real world economics. I know all about supply and demand. again we are talking about a video game where real world politics and economy doesn't belong.
So you say by no means should a dev set price caps. Elaborate further please. Why would this be a bad thing? The only thing this does is keep people from being greedy AND stops gold selling in its place.
You say that we control the sellers. No we dont. We never have. When you have a group of folks that can corner the market and keep everybodys stuff bought up and resold at their prices, there is not much you can do. You say buy from a cheaper source, well that sure sounds easy doesnt it. But its not. you can spam for hours trying to find someone that you can get to craft for you at a resonable price and never get a response. Auction houses have, in many ways, taken away the ability to find good reasonable crafters. I can honestly say this, the last game that had crafting in it (and it wasn't much) that you were able to find quality people to do the work for you was in EQ1. Crafters there wasn't nearly as bad as todays mmo players. Of course, back then, the only need for crafted stuff was jewlery and for certain people armor or weapon crafting for their quests. Now a days there are lots more stuff that are needed because they wanted to give crafters a bigger part in the game, but it didnt quite work out that way. Kinda like how Verant envisioned EQ as a dungeon crawl, instead, it turned out to be camp every mob 24/7.
The T2 stuff became so expensive, because CCP fixed an exploit/hack that spawned the basic components to produce T2.
Macros and farmes lower the prices for minerals, fuel and other resources. So actually they are an advantage for players with "financial problems" like you.
Though, they are a disatvantage for all the miners, traders and producers out there who make their isk out of that.
And actually... the T2 prices went down. Before invention was introduced, Cap Rechargers II costed 10 M instead of 800 K like nowadays. so stop whining.
Aw, boo hoo.
Doomsday, honestly why don't you just say that you're irritated that other players can affect your game experience? It'd be simpler and closer to the truth than the walls of non-sensical attempts at justification you've made thus far.
The only thing separating you from these 'evil crafters controlling the market' is that they've put in more time/effort. They started at the same noob level you did.
QFT.
If the concept of a player-driven economy is such an anathema to your enjoyment, find yourself a single player game, preferably one with cheat codes to give yourself unlimited gold. What's next, PVP isn't fair so now devs should set a cap on how many hit points you can lose to a player?
Many MMOs these days reward the time-challenged (and in some cases, skill-challenged) player by making almost everything accessible. EVE is different, but even so you still don't need gobs of ISK to compete. You won't be able to buy the latest and greatest, but the beauty of a skill-based game that relies on tactics is that it doesn't matter. And honestly, if you don't want to put in the time (or whatever the game requires) then you don't deserve the latest and greatest, period.
I'll never understand why people think that they're automatically entitled to equality in a computer game. It doesn't matter if its a game, real life, or whatever: you get out what you put in. People that, for whatever reason, have more time/brainpower/money to spend on a video game should naturally get more for their time/brainpower/money than those who don't.
Welcome to the world. It isn't the problem. You are.
Try harder.
Dude, I have already stated that Eve is pretty much its own entity and thus doesn't follow standard MMO faire. I would not even try and challange anything in that game because as I have stated it is the one and only true game designed for actual real world economics.
I have no problems with people having more time to play a game than I do. They are going to get stuff I dont get, I have no problem with that. The problem of how to get rid of gold farmers that ruin economies does in fact affect everyone in the game. Until such time that a game comes out that can stop it in its tracks,We are left with what we currently have and its obvious it does not work well. So I instead of just complaining about am offering my opinion on how to solve that problem. the side benefit that it eliminates greed in the process is just a wonderful added bonus.
Why so sad Veritas? Are you crying because you couldn't come up with a logical and well thought out response so you decided to see if you could just insult me into submission? I have stated that I am in the minority on how I feel about crafting. I am also pretty sure that nobody yet has actually come up with a valid reason as to why having devs control the economy is a bad thing. The best I have gotten from anyone is that its bad. The verdict is still out on if its only bad because those that are disagreeing are the same ones that take advantage of the current player run economy problems. I have listed out several problems that I personally have ran across in different mmos and even proposed a solution. What have you offered? You got any ideas how to fix gold sellers and "evil crafters controlling the market" or do you want to just troll those that are at least offering up ideas on how to fix problems in todays mmo's?