yeah just read up on sims3 seems it gets bad reviews from people who think sims2 is better, no DRM is suppose to be on it other then disk in drive and key type. Glad to see that enough people complaining about 3 installs and thats it type of DRM worked. I will watch Maxis and give em a second chance if i see that trend continue.
Millions of people are playing Aion without issues. After seeing the rate of failure vs non failure of GG in this forum, one would think the game would have 20k subs tops.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
Millions of people are playing Aion without issues. After seeing the rate of failure vs non failure of GG in this forum, one would think the game would have 20k subs tops.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
All of those issues can be easily fixed by reporting them to the ones in charge, instead of creating thousands of posts complaining about it in a forum they won't read for sure. Show me one example of someone being ignored after reporting a gameguard issue in the proper plattform and I'll join your cause.
Originally posted by Ephimero Show me one example of someone being ignored after reporting a gameguard issue in the proper platform and I'll join your cause.
I reported several to Spellborn Inc. and never got any help apart from to uninstall NetLimiter (Not an option as you might guess). I also opened a case on nProtect and only got the answer to contact the distributor of the game. (Not realy much help.)
EDIT: And it did cost me about 2 days of searching and so on to find the issue and the 'solution'.
Millions of people are playing Aion without issues. After seeing the rate of failure vs non failure of GG in this forum, one would think the game would have 20k subs tops.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
All of those issues can be easily fixed by reporting them to the ones in charge, instead of creating thousands of posts complaining about it in a forum they won't read for sure. Show me one example of someone being ignored after reporting a gameguard issue in the proper plattform and I'll join your cause.
I think that we're talking about two different things here. So I will attempt to explain my point in a different way.
Gameguard does not work. It does not prevent botting. It does not prevent hacking or exploiting. It is very easily turned off, bypassed and tricked.
Besides the fact that it does not work, the software also causes problems for some users. Yes, we can report issues to INCA or NCSoft and maybe they will get fixed in a month or two... However, since the software does not do what it is designed to do, why do we even need to deal with it?
To summarize:
Gameguard doesn't work and causes problems. Please remove.
GameGuard does not cause as many problems as people whine about here
The fact that it doesn't cause YOU problems doesn't mean that it's fine on everybody elses machines. And is it really necessary to use the word 'whine' to put down anybody who has a view that's different to yours?
A whine by any other name would still be just as annoying. Instead of critisizing him for using the word, why speak out against the plague of whiners that are overrunning these forums?
So now we have whines about those who whine about the whiners? The fact remains that gameguard can and does cause various problems. Windowz is unstable enough as it is, without poorly coded apps like gameguard. As I stated, its more like a bandaid, than any real solution. Its to make the suits feel "secure" without spending the time and money to actually write secure code. Of course, when they do get hacked(and they do...), then they blame their tech staffs and cover it up.
madeux or heartless, do you see a real positive effect of GameGuard? That it runs on your system is nice, but does not help anyone but you. (I avoid saying that it 'works'.)
Does it do its written Job (From the nProtect Website) :
Game Security solution for game companies to protect their games from hacks such as information theft, speed hack, memory edit, macros, BOTs, DLL injections and other threats.
Does Lineage II have no problem with Bots and information theft? Does it help on any of the other games that use it?
If not, why bother with installing a software that makes only one possible customer not buy the system? Isn't the best way to minimize "the outflow of incomes and assets" (as nProtect states) designing your game the way that it is not that vulnerable to this kind of things?
And don't you think that informing the customer of such a system should not be mandatory before he buys it?
(Even on with a microwave you are informed not to put living animals into it.)
The Devs at NC seem to think it serves a purpose for them, otherwise they would not be using it. If they really thought it would hurt their income, they wouldn't be using it. Sorry, but I trust their opinion far more than I trust yours.
Its NOT the Dev's at NC... Its the SUITS. You do understand the difference? ^^ Most of the Dev's I've spoken with over the years despise apps like gameguard. Its the suits who think its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Why? because of the smoke and mirrors they have been sold on. In reality gameguard is easy to bypass, and each new addition is cracked within hours(if not minutes) of release. That is the fact that the Dev's understand, and the suits seldom if ever will.
gameguard was put there for something for the nit pickers to pick on. I have never had any problems with the said program (except windows 7 which is not supported by gameguard of yet), I have read many problems with said software and have been playing Lineage 2 on all different types of rigs /software combinations over the years with no problems.
I do agree that more secure code should be written and this would then be obsolite, but also I dont want to have to wait for this secure code and in the long run delaying this gorgeous game from coming out, roll on sept 25 gameguard and all.
Ive never had issues with any game scanners at this point. All you have to do is look at the cheating going on in Darkfall to see that there is a need for game companies to protect thier game. Adventurine is taking a hit from it moneywise (but that isnt entirely the problem). Not all the programs are perfect, but i believe that we do need them in place.
What we need are code bases that factor in security from the bottom up, rather than slapping on feel good bandaids like gameguard. Client side "security" is inherently vulnerable, and FAR inferior to server side security. One old Dev put it well when they said, "Always keep in mind that the client is in the hands of the enemy". ^^
Originally posted by Wraithone That is the fact that the Dev's understand, and the suits seldom if ever will.
The suits (and John Doe) will also never know what is an root kit. They don't care. They (the suites not John Doe) don't play this games (they don't really have the time to).
Millions of people are playing Aion without issues. After seeing the rate of failure vs non failure of GG in this forum, one would think the game would have 20k subs tops.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
All of those issues can be easily fixed by reporting them to the ones in charge, instead of creating thousands of posts complaining about it in a forum they won't read for sure. Show me one example of someone being ignored after reporting a gameguard issue in the proper plattform and I'll join your cause.
I think that we're talking about two different things here. So I will attempt to explain my point in a different way.
Gameguard does not work. It does not prevent botting. It does not prevent hacking or exploiting. It is very easily turned off, bypassed and tricked.
Besides the fact that it does not work, the software also causes problems for some users. Yes, we can report issues to INCA or NCSoft and maybe they will get fixed in a month or two... However, since the software does not do what it is designed to do, why do we even need to deal with it?
To summarize:
Gameguard doesn't work and causes problems. Please remove.
Sorry but I disagree. As friend of people who did use bot in certain gameguard protected games, Im well aware that they had to pay a subscription to obtain said bot, and Im well aware that they received patches every time they bot didn't run because of gameguard patches. Now, Im also aware that non paid exploits such as the speedhack in Aion have been 100% erradicated in Korea.
So, it does work, but imagine for a moment that people could earn money by creating viruses, and that virus creators weren't punished by the laws, would that make it easy for antivirus software creators? It's the same with this, excepting that in gameguard's case, bot makers can still make profit of their bots and release patches daily without being punished by the laws.
That is the fact that the Dev's understand, and the suits seldom if ever will.
The suits (and John Doe) will also never know what is an root kit. They don't care. They (the suites not John Doe) don't play this games (they don't really have the time to).
Good point. That reminds me of the South Park episode titled Make Love not Warcraft. The Blizzard suits said "We don't have accounts, we have lives"... ^^
Millions of people are playing Aion without issues. After seeing the rate of failure vs non failure of GG in this forum, one would think the game would have 20k subs tops.
Most people don't know about these things and blame their PC or their OS or just assume the server is having problems when things break. They wait a while or reboot then things are fine again...for a while.
Millions of people are playing Aion without issues. After seeing the rate of failure vs non failure of GG in this forum, one would think the game would have 20k subs tops.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
All of those issues can be easily fixed by reporting them to the ones in charge, instead of creating thousands of posts complaining about it in a forum they won't read for sure. Show me one example of someone being ignored after reporting a gameguard issue in the proper plattform and I'll join your cause.
I think that we're talking about two different things here. So I will attempt to explain my point in a different way.
Gameguard does not work. It does not prevent botting. It does not prevent hacking or exploiting. It is very easily turned off, bypassed and tricked.
Besides the fact that it does not work, the software also causes problems for some users. Yes, we can report issues to INCA or NCSoft and maybe they will get fixed in a month or two... However, since the software does not do what it is designed to do, why do we even need to deal with it?
To summarize:
Gameguard doesn't work and causes problems. Please remove.
Sorry but I disagree. As friend of people who did use bot in certain gameguard protected games, Im well aware that they had to pay a subscription to obtain said bot, and Im well aware that they received patches every time they bot didn't run because of gameguard patches. Now, Im also aware that non paid exploits such as the speedhack in Aion have been 100% erradicated in Korea.
So, it does work, but imagine for a moment that people could earn money by creating viruses, and that virus creators weren't punished by the laws, would that make it easy for antivirus software creators? It's the same with this, excepting that in gameguard's case, bot makers can still make profit of their bots and release patches daily without being punished by the laws.
The fact is that most of the Gameguard games are overflowing with bots. Whether or not people pay subscription fees to use those bots is irrelevent. People still use bots in Gameguard "protected" games.
Besides, just because you knew someone who had to pay a subscription fee to use bots, doesn't mean that everyone does. A couple of minutes with Google will enlighten you.
Originally posted by Ephimero Now, Im also aware that non paid exploits such as the speedhack in Aion have been 100% erradicated in Korea.
Now I wonder if that is to the account of GameGuard, since the first hit you get on google is how to remove GameGuard from the Korean Version of Aion. So more likely they managed to fix the game.
You are right that paying people will get the patches to their tools faster. But I guess its only a matter of days till the non paying ppl have the patch.
Server side protection is all well and good, but it can't be the only thing you have. Otherwise, the ease of cheating on things like modifying models to stick through ceilings (Tribes 1 happy flag cheat comes to mind) becomes a trivial exercise.
In a PvE game, it doesn't matter as much, but since PvP is in this game, it does matter. People will stop at nothing to win, its the only thing to them, whether they come by it legit, or not, doesn't matter.
Server side protection is all well and good, but it can't be the only thing you have. Otherwise, the ease of cheating on things like modifying models to stick through ceilings (Tribes 1 happy flag cheat comes to mind) becomes a trivial exercise. In a PvE game, it doesn't matter as much, but since PvP is in this game, it does matter. People will stop at nothing to win, its the only thing to them, whether they come by it legit, or not, doesn't matter.
Thats why you have all assets client side check summed and that encrypted. At start up its checked, and at random times during play. If you have a streaming system in place, thats just part of the cycle. I quite agree that people will go to any length to win, and its almost impossible to prevent everything. But server side has so many advantages that leaving things on client side is lazy, and sloppy.
Sorry, this topic jumped to 7 pages while I was not looking.
I'm sure you noticed that WAR uses a variation of punkbuster, but my reply isn't really about who uses what and how... it's about what will be.
Anti-cheat software is inevitable for future MMOs. As much as we would like to design the backend to prevent those tools from being needed, too many "clones" need to produce a product faster and cheaper to compete with a big name company...
Sure, they may not all be triple AAA, but when 7/10 products on the shelf have a certain feature, eventually the remaining 3 will obtain it to. Even Blizzard made their own variant... I saw a little bit of an outcry, but the majority just accepted it. Individuals who left because of this anti-cheat system are probably back and playing again.
You know what you are talking about, but my point in my original post is that the rest of the world doesn't.
I'm fairly certain nearly every person who has posted on this topic understand and can state why it won't work, what the problems with these systems are, and how it will be "simple once people realize". But for every person that understand this and posts here, there are 20-30 others that don't get it and don't even know MMORPG exists.
People don't realize... not until it is too late. We will lose to the flood because that is what always happens. Just look at security at airports, football/baseball games, and other public areas. Somehow the mentality sets in that "it's required" or "it's only a small annoyance"... and all because someone with "authority" stated it in a tough enough fashion. I'm very willing to call Blizzard an authority on MMO's simply because of their market share.
That is why I said it was inevitable, people are always willing to give up freedoms, privacy, and rights for a little extra security. The few that stand up eventually join back in with the crowd.
I will admit GameGuard seems odd for a high-quality p2p game, but I have also never experienced issues with GG except earlier in its creation when it interfered with the software used for my Wacom Tablet. That has long-since been fixed, and as someone pointed out, the development team behind Aion doesn't just allow GG to handle all of it's in-game security issues; GG has been used basically to back up the existing efforts of the team, as I believe the speed hack exploit was fixed server-side, meaning with or without GG the speed hack no longer functions.
Still, most people don't seem to have a problem bypassing GG, so I'm not sure it's worth having. And, while I don't experience problems with it, I don't have Vista or 7 (still using XP) so I can't speak for those who do. Overall it doesn't seem effective, but not really worth moaning about either.
Not yet, anyway.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Originally posted by LiquidWolf @Vendolis Anti-cheat software is inevitable for future MMOs. As much as we would like to design the backend to prevent those tools from being needed, too many "clones" need to produce a product faster and cheaper to compete with a big name company...
I back you up on this one. BUT, two points, one it mustn't use root kit technology (Non of the other use that, as far as I know), as a MMO company I would care about how effective it is.
Esp. as a small company (what NCsoft is definitely not) I would care for my reputation. But I totally understand how this decisions are made, I know it from my company and I know that they will only change it when it affects their revenue.
I have the feeling that GameGuard is not deep enough embedded in the system. I have the feeling that PunkBuster and VAC are much more integrated and have not such a reputation as GG. Well that might be that my bad PB experiences are a long time ago and VAC I had never problems, but as i said, the measures they take are not in sync with the effect they have. RootKit and (relative) Uneffective System is just not the right combo. StarForce did not realy recover from their hit either. SecuRom and Tag
Maybe i will play Aion now if there useing GameGuard since I can hack so easyly with out needing to worry much about a ban. 1 Thing I hate is lvling in MMO's but now I can speed hack or plan LVL hack dont missunderstand I onnly hack MMO RPG'S and thats for lvling only.
Most games from the far east use gameguard, and while it does look into a lot in order to protect the game it is "guarding" it isn't running when the game is not on, and is easy removal upon uninstaling. I would prefer they take measures to protect the security of the game from hacks and cheats then let it run wild and just completely destroy games like it has done to darkfall. Gameguard does catch a lot, but it doesn't catch it's own disabler which hurts, but i doubt that is the only protection NCsoft has.
Had to edit because Blizzards Warden program is a root kit by definition as well that runs in the background when all Blizzard games are up and running.
Comments
Yep .. most of them play in PC bangs I guess where the computers are mainly used to play games.
yeah just read up on sims3 seems it gets bad reviews from people who think sims2 is better, no DRM is suppose to be on it other then disk in drive and key type. Glad to see that enough people complaining about 3 installs and thats it type of DRM worked. I will watch Maxis and give em a second chance if i see that trend continue.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
All of those issues can be easily fixed by reporting them to the ones in charge, instead of creating thousands of posts complaining about it in a forum they won't read for sure. Show me one example of someone being ignored after reporting a gameguard issue in the proper plattform and I'll join your cause.
I reported several to Spellborn Inc. and never got any help apart from to uninstall NetLimiter (Not an option as you might guess). I also opened a case on nProtect and only got the answer to contact the distributor of the game. (Not realy much help.)
EDIT: And it did cost me about 2 days of searching and so on to find the issue and the 'solution'.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
All of those issues can be easily fixed by reporting them to the ones in charge, instead of creating thousands of posts complaining about it in a forum they won't read for sure. Show me one example of someone being ignored after reporting a gameguard issue in the proper plattform and I'll join your cause.
I think that we're talking about two different things here. So I will attempt to explain my point in a different way.
Gameguard does not work. It does not prevent botting. It does not prevent hacking or exploiting. It is very easily turned off, bypassed and tricked.
Besides the fact that it does not work, the software also causes problems for some users. Yes, we can report issues to INCA or NCSoft and maybe they will get fixed in a month or two... However, since the software does not do what it is designed to do, why do we even need to deal with it?
To summarize:
Gameguard doesn't work and causes problems. Please remove.
All the point there is to it. :-)
Second option is to make GameGuard realy work ... would make Lineage 2 a wonderful game. (As it was in beta )
The fact that it doesn't cause YOU problems doesn't mean that it's fine on everybody elses machines. And is it really necessary to use the word 'whine' to put down anybody who has a view that's different to yours?
A whine by any other name would still be just as annoying. Instead of critisizing him for using the word, why speak out against the plague of whiners that are overrunning these forums?
So now we have whines about those who whine about the whiners?
The fact remains that gameguard can and does cause various problems. Windowz is unstable enough as it is, without poorly coded apps like gameguard. As I stated, its more like a bandaid, than any real solution. Its to make the suits feel "secure" without spending the time and money to actually write secure code. Of course, when they do get hacked(and they do...), then they blame their tech staffs and cover it up.
Does Lineage II have no problem with Bots and information theft? Does it help on any of the other games that use it?
If not, why bother with installing a software that makes only one possible customer not buy the system? Isn't the best way to minimize "the outflow of incomes and assets" (as nProtect states) designing your game the way that it is not that vulnerable to this kind of things?
And don't you think that informing the customer of such a system should not be mandatory before he buys it?
(Even on with a microwave you are informed not to put living animals into it.)
The Devs at NC seem to think it serves a purpose for them, otherwise they would not be using it. If they really thought it would hurt their income, they wouldn't be using it. Sorry, but I trust their opinion far more than I trust yours.
Its NOT the Dev's at NC... Its the SUITS. You do understand the difference? ^^ Most of the Dev's I've spoken with over the years despise apps like gameguard. Its the suits who think its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Why? because of the smoke and mirrors they have been sold on. In reality gameguard is easy to bypass, and each new addition is cracked within hours(if not minutes) of release. That is the fact that the Dev's understand, and the suits seldom if ever will.
gameguard was put there for something for the nit pickers to pick on. I have never had any problems with the said program (except windows 7 which is not supported by gameguard of yet), I have read many problems with said software and have been playing Lineage 2 on all different types of rigs /software combinations over the years with no problems.
I do agree that more secure code should be written and this would then be obsolite, but also I dont want to have to wait for this secure code and in the long run delaying this gorgeous game from coming out, roll on sept 25 gameguard and all.
PS Just hope its not bot city
What we need are code bases that factor in security from the bottom up, rather than slapping on feel good bandaids like gameguard. Client side "security" is inherently vulnerable, and FAR inferior to server side security. One old Dev put it well when they said, "Always keep in mind that the client is in the hands of the enemy". ^^
The suits (and John Doe) will also never know what is an root kit. They don't care. They (the suites not John Doe) don't play this games (they don't really have the time to).
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
All of those issues can be easily fixed by reporting them to the ones in charge, instead of creating thousands of posts complaining about it in a forum they won't read for sure. Show me one example of someone being ignored after reporting a gameguard issue in the proper plattform and I'll join your cause.
I think that we're talking about two different things here. So I will attempt to explain my point in a different way.
Gameguard does not work. It does not prevent botting. It does not prevent hacking or exploiting. It is very easily turned off, bypassed and tricked.
Besides the fact that it does not work, the software also causes problems for some users. Yes, we can report issues to INCA or NCSoft and maybe they will get fixed in a month or two... However, since the software does not do what it is designed to do, why do we even need to deal with it?
To summarize:
Gameguard doesn't work and causes problems. Please remove.
Sorry but I disagree. As friend of people who did use bot in certain gameguard protected games, Im well aware that they had to pay a subscription to obtain said bot, and Im well aware that they received patches every time they bot didn't run because of gameguard patches. Now, Im also aware that non paid exploits such as the speedhack in Aion have been 100% erradicated in Korea.
So, it does work, but imagine for a moment that people could earn money by creating viruses, and that virus creators weren't punished by the laws, would that make it easy for antivirus software creators? It's the same with this, excepting that in gameguard's case, bot makers can still make profit of their bots and release patches daily without being punished by the laws.
The suits (and John Doe) will also never know what is an root kit. They don't care. They (the suites not John Doe) don't play this games (they don't really have the time to).
Good point. That reminds me of the South Park episode titled Make Love not Warcraft. The Blizzard suits said "We don't have accounts, we have lives"... ^^
Most people don't know about these things and blame their PC or their OS or just assume the server is having problems when things break. They wait a while or reboot then things are fine again...for a while.
Listen, I'm pretty sure that most people are not experiencing any serious issues with Gameguard and some that are experiencing issues, either don't know what causes them or aren't aware of them.
However, there is a significant number of people who are experiencing issues with Gameguard and these people should not be ignored. I wouldn't mind putting up with certain issues if Gameguard actually prevented hacking and botting. But it doesn't! There is no reason to bundle it up with the game if the only thing it acomplishes is annoying some of the users.
All of those issues can be easily fixed by reporting them to the ones in charge, instead of creating thousands of posts complaining about it in a forum they won't read for sure. Show me one example of someone being ignored after reporting a gameguard issue in the proper plattform and I'll join your cause.
I think that we're talking about two different things here. So I will attempt to explain my point in a different way.
Gameguard does not work. It does not prevent botting. It does not prevent hacking or exploiting. It is very easily turned off, bypassed and tricked.
Besides the fact that it does not work, the software also causes problems for some users. Yes, we can report issues to INCA or NCSoft and maybe they will get fixed in a month or two... However, since the software does not do what it is designed to do, why do we even need to deal with it?
To summarize:
Gameguard doesn't work and causes problems. Please remove.
Sorry but I disagree. As friend of people who did use bot in certain gameguard protected games, Im well aware that they had to pay a subscription to obtain said bot, and Im well aware that they received patches every time they bot didn't run because of gameguard patches. Now, Im also aware that non paid exploits such as the speedhack in Aion have been 100% erradicated in Korea.
So, it does work, but imagine for a moment that people could earn money by creating viruses, and that virus creators weren't punished by the laws, would that make it easy for antivirus software creators? It's the same with this, excepting that in gameguard's case, bot makers can still make profit of their bots and release patches daily without being punished by the laws.
The fact is that most of the Gameguard games are overflowing with bots. Whether or not people pay subscription fees to use those bots is irrelevent. People still use bots in Gameguard "protected" games.
Besides, just because you knew someone who had to pay a subscription fee to use bots, doesn't mean that everyone does. A couple of minutes with Google will enlighten you.
Now I wonder if that is to the account of GameGuard, since the first hit you get on google is how to remove GameGuard from the Korean Version of Aion.
So more likely they managed to fix the game.
You are right that paying people will get the patches to their tools faster. But I guess its only a matter of days till the non paying ppl have the patch.
Server side protection is all well and good, but it can't be the only thing you have. Otherwise, the ease of cheating on things like modifying models to stick through ceilings (Tribes 1 happy flag cheat comes to mind) becomes a trivial exercise.
In a PvE game, it doesn't matter as much, but since PvP is in this game, it does matter. People will stop at nothing to win, its the only thing to them, whether they come by it legit, or not, doesn't matter.
Thats why you have all assets client side check summed and that encrypted. At start up its checked, and at random times during play. If you have a streaming system in place, thats just part of the cycle. I quite agree that people will go to any length to win, and its almost impossible to prevent everything. But server side has so many advantages that leaving things on client side is lazy, and sloppy.
@Vendolis
Sorry, this topic jumped to 7 pages while I was not looking.
I'm sure you noticed that WAR uses a variation of punkbuster, but my reply isn't really about who uses what and how... it's about what will be.
Anti-cheat software is inevitable for future MMOs. As much as we would like to design the backend to prevent those tools from being needed, too many "clones" need to produce a product faster and cheaper to compete with a big name company...
Sure, they may not all be triple AAA, but when 7/10 products on the shelf have a certain feature, eventually the remaining 3 will obtain it to. Even Blizzard made their own variant... I saw a little bit of an outcry, but the majority just accepted it. Individuals who left because of this anti-cheat system are probably back and playing again.
You know what you are talking about, but my point in my original post is that the rest of the world doesn't.
I'm fairly certain nearly every person who has posted on this topic understand and can state why it won't work, what the problems with these systems are, and how it will be "simple once people realize". But for every person that understand this and posts here, there are 20-30 others that don't get it and don't even know MMORPG exists.
People don't realize... not until it is too late. We will lose to the flood because that is what always happens. Just look at security at airports, football/baseball games, and other public areas. Somehow the mentality sets in that "it's required" or "it's only a small annoyance"... and all because someone with "authority" stated it in a tough enough fashion. I'm very willing to call Blizzard an authority on MMO's simply because of their market share.
That is why I said it was inevitable, people are always willing to give up freedoms, privacy, and rights for a little extra security. The few that stand up eventually join back in with the crowd.
I will admit GameGuard seems odd for a high-quality p2p game, but I have also never experienced issues with GG except earlier in its creation when it interfered with the software used for my Wacom Tablet. That has long-since been fixed, and as someone pointed out, the development team behind Aion doesn't just allow GG to handle all of it's in-game security issues; GG has been used basically to back up the existing efforts of the team, as I believe the speed hack exploit was fixed server-side, meaning with or without GG the speed hack no longer functions.
Still, most people don't seem to have a problem bypassing GG, so I'm not sure it's worth having. And, while I don't experience problems with it, I don't have Vista or 7 (still using XP) so I can't speak for those who do. Overall it doesn't seem effective, but not really worth moaning about either.
Not yet, anyway.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I back you up on this one. BUT, two points, one it mustn't use root kit technology (Non of the other use that, as far as I know), as a MMO company I would care about how effective it is.
Esp. as a small company (what NCsoft is definitely not) I would care for my reputation. But I totally understand how this decisions are made, I know it from my company and I know that they will only change it when it affects their revenue.
I have the feeling that GameGuard is not deep enough embedded in the system. I have the feeling that PunkBuster and VAC are much more integrated and have not such a reputation as GG. Well that might be that my bad PB experiences are a long time ago and VAC I had never problems, but as i said, the measures they take are not in sync with the effect they have. RootKit and (relative) Uneffective System is just not the right combo. StarForce did not realy recover from their hit either. SecuRom and Tag
Maybe i will play Aion now if there useing GameGuard since I can hack so easyly with out needing to worry much about a ban. 1 Thing I hate is lvling in MMO's but now I can speed hack or plan LVL hack dont missunderstand I onnly hack MMO RPG'S and thats for lvling only.
Most games from the far east use gameguard, and while it does look into a lot in order to protect the game it is "guarding" it isn't running when the game is not on, and is easy removal upon uninstaling. I would prefer they take measures to protect the security of the game from hacks and cheats then let it run wild and just completely destroy games like it has done to darkfall. Gameguard does catch a lot, but it doesn't catch it's own disabler which hurts, but i doubt that is the only protection NCsoft has.
Had to edit because Blizzards Warden program is a root kit by definition as well that runs in the background when all Blizzard games are up and running.
Sorry but absolutely not. Take a look at How Do I Uninstall Nprotect Game Guard?. This qualifys for me as not easily uninstallable.
If Warden is a root kit I can not say.. it does not hide files on my system, though hides itself from the process lists.