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Level cap in a day versus one week. Would this be unfair?
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
You are a casual gamer. Your time to play is limited to one hour a day because of work, wife aggro, kids, homework, restriction by parents, whatever the situation may be.
The "Power gamer" has no restrictions on time. He can play 24/7. He is a single millionaire that doesn't work, a student on break for the summer with no job, whatever the case may be.
The level cap requires 7 quests OR 700 mobs killed. Each quest takes about an hour, OR it takes about an hour to kill 100 mobs.
For this example, we are not counting time you stand around in the game looking at digital rocks because you think they are pretty, or chatting witha hawt elf gurl, since we have no control over that and you may want to do nothing else in the game besides that, which is fine if you're entertained.
Now, you play one hour a day, and in 7 days you reach the level cap.
Mr. Power gamer plays 7 hours in one day, and reaches the level cap.
You both did 7 quests, or killed 700 mobs.
Is this unfair? Why or why not?
Comments
It is fair because the casual player is given a chance to catch up, no matter how long or fast it may take.
levels are a stupid thing.
if you are not having fun playing, not even in 8 sessions, maybe the game is not good.
playing to achieve endgame, on games where only the endgame is fun could be good for powergamers, but I think is a bad deal for casuals.
so get a better game.
Does it become unfair at some point, is the real question. Everyone can see waiting for a week. It seems like being really spoiled if you'[re going to complain about waiting a week to catch up with everyone else in the game.
What if it's one week, versus 7 weeks?
What if it's one month versus 7 months?
Is not the situation exactly the same, level cap, definite number of quests or mobs to kill to reach it?
At what point do you feel it becomes unfair?
It would seem ridiculous to say 1 minute versus 7 minutes would be unfair, right? Then why would one month versus 7 months be unfair, if the situation is the same?
Of course its fair, simply put you get what you put in, you both did the same amount of work .
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Same situaiton for a use it to improve it skill game.
Yoou must swing your sword X times to raise a skill level in sword swinging. There is a cap on sword swinging skill. It takes about an hour to swing your sword x times, etc., etc.
Does it become unfair at some point, is the real question. Everyone can see waiting for a week. It seems like being really spoiled if you'[re going to complain about waiting a week to catch up with everyone else in the game.
What if it's one week, versus 7 weeks?
What if it's one month versus 7 months?
Is not the situation exactly the same, level cap, definite number of quests or mobs to kill to reach it?
At what point do you feel it becomes unfair?
It would seem ridiculous to say 1 minute versus 7 minutes would be unfair, right? Then why would one month versus 7 months be unfair, if the situation is the same?
Right, I can see where you're going with this. The amount of time does add another element to the problem.
Technically, I think it'd still be fair. But to the average person playing it casually and taking 7 weeks, months, or years, it'd seem mighty unfair. That's where the spite comes from: "You don't have a life, go get a job, you're pathetic for sitting on your butt 24/7 and playing this game all day", etc. In reality, you need to go at your own pace and stop worrying about how fast other people are doing it.
The problem comes when companies put focus on the endgame. Then everyone wants to rush to level cap, and if the game is designed to increase the time a casual takes to reach that level cap by 7 (or whatever factor), the casuals will start complaining. If not vocally, then mentally... which may cause them to cancel their subs if they think, "Man, I'll never catch up. All this great content at level ____... all the best PvP, the best gear, the raids, the new continents... how will I ever get there?"
On the other hand, in a level-based environment at least, if companies provide the same type of content throughout the leveling process, people will complain that they're doing the same thing at Level 1 as they are at Level 40. I think this system is preferable, though, with some level-restricted content (not necessarily max level content) so that people have incentives to get Level 10, or 20, or 25, or whatever. Dungeons are a primary way of doing this, of course.
So really, it's just a matter of perception. Perception of how long you think it'll take you to hit max level if you're casual. Perception of how desirable endgame really is. Perception of how fast the other guy is leveling, and why it matters.
Well, those are just my thoughts on the matter. It's really an abstract question, asking if it's "fair".
Its only unfair IF as a casual gamer I have the unreal expectation that things external to my life are modified so as to give me the same experience as other people with different lives.
May as well say its unfair to charge for the games since poor people can't afford it, or its unfair to put the game on computers or comsoles because some people don't have them.
Is it unfair that EA made NBA Live '08 a basketball simulator, when I don't like basketball simulations? I demand EA put into NBA Live '08 a flight simulator component along with a puzzle solving 2d scroller along with some FPS alien shooting. Why should I have to play basketball?! Its not fair!
Same situaiton for a use it to improve it skill game.
Yoou must swing your sword X times to raise a skill level in sword swinging. There is a cap on sword swinging skill. It takes about an hour to swing your sword x times, etc., etc.
You misunderstod me. I mean is bad for casuals to put the fun on level 80, an make so to achieve that level 80 you have to play 4 boring months. For casuals is better to just connect and have fun.
I probably share with you the opinion that having to swing a blade 4 boring months, till you have skill 120 and are able to have fun, is still a bad deal for casuals.
For powergamers could be different, since powergamers can delay satisfaction, to get a very good satisfaction product of playing really "expert" content. And to get expert you may need these 4 boring months .... 2 weeks for the powergamer.
Anyway, to reply your comment. Is also dumb to put a monster at level 4 that are unkillable by players of level 3 ( say... Shaiya). And make so players of level 4 can't play with players of level 6. Skillbased systems are more flexible and don't have this problems.
A casual gamer should always know what he's looking for before getting into certain mmorpg, and be aware of his limitations.
If Im a casual gamer who wants to be the best player in Lineage II, for example, Im up for a dissapointment, and im sure dozens of people could have told me that beforehand if asked saving me the hassle, if I want to have fun while questing and reaching my own set goals every 3 days in WoW, then I might be able to do that.
So, I think it's fair, people should know what they're getting into, and they also should know what to expect considering the handicaps.
Whining about games having levels when there are games with no levels out there, or whining about games that require you to be a dedicated gamer when there are a lot of games that don't require you to be dedicated is really stupid.
Purely from this description it would seem to be quite fair. Both players have an opportunity to play the game at their own pace get the same reward (whatever it is) for completing the same amount of content. As long as they are not put into direct competition how one plays the game has zero impact on how the other plays the game and as such issues of fairness become irrelevant. It is as if we are considering whether it is fair that some stranger in Japan was able to enter some contest I never heard of and win a price I do not care about.
The issues arise when you put the two players into competition. In a territorial control game (eg EVE) the person who can stake a claim to a resource first gets a distinct advantage and any latecomer has to fight harder to get control of that resource. Or in a FFA PVP game the person reaching the level cap first can then go into the newbie area and make life miserable for the other player.
Fairness is about is about giving all participants the same opportunity to reach the goal. However, it also makes assumptions about the starting conditions of all the participants. So in order to remain fair all the participants in a contest have to be made aware of what those 'minimal requirements' are.
I agree, companies need to focus more on the journey instead the destination...
If everyone playing just wants to get to the end as quickly as possible and the cap is all that matters, the leveling sucks or these people should stop playing a game with levels. Leveling up is supposed to be fun. If its not, theres a problem.
Its fair as long as people can catch up. So it takes you longer to level up. Are you having fun? If the answer is yes, then the longer you're having fun the BETTER your experience is, right? Why speed up something you're having fun with? You might as well make it last as long as possible. At least thats the way I see it=)
YES! Leveling shouldn't be a race, geez.
The only unfair thing I can see is that the powergamer that plays 7 hours a day and the casual that plays 7 hours a week both pay the same amount per month. Casuals that believe they should receive the same amount of gain with only a fraction of the effort are, in my opinion, pretty selfish.
I agree that this is not 100% fair.
However, it seems to me rather moot at 14.95 per month. This is very cheap whether you play an hour a day or 8 hours a day for entertainment.
A movie is about 9 bucks, and that's and average of 90 minutes, for comparison.
In any case, this is generally NOT the complaint of casual gamers that whine about someone powerlevelling in teh game, saying they have no life, saying it's unfair, etc., etc.
If for example, you said, ok fine, we'll only charge you 9.95 a month, I dont' think those people would be happy. At some point you would be asking to get something for nothing. I don't think a game company is going to maintain servers for you to play on for less than 9.95 a month, again the price of one movie.And the server doesn't suddenly cost less because you aren't playing on it right this minute. It's got to be rented and maintained whether you are logged on or not.
How about this option. Maxed level toon for $150.00. That is the equilavent of 10 months of subscription, no waiting for end game, and even FASTER than the powerleveler. The publisher makes his money, and you get what you want, instant end game as fast as the power leveler, or even faster.
I can only think that this is what casuals are asking for, skipping all the content to get to the end game, otherwise what are they complaining about, since they get the same leveling rate or skill leveling rate for doing the same content?
By definition, one is "casual" and one is "hardcore." A casual gamer will approach the game when they are able or would like to. A hardcore player will move gaming up on the priority scale, risking job, relationships, etc.
The reverse question: "Is it fair to have completed all the tasks necessary to reach level cap, but be forced to wait until the casual gamer catches up?"
I"m not sure how you would even design such a game.
Life isn't fair. Get over it.
there is a HUGE differance between level cap and power tier.
the level cap is where you can't advance your character anymore by training, the power tier is where your character doesn't get much stronger.
As a matter of fact I would consider it very good game design where a player got to the power tier in an "excessive" day. An example would be a skill bassed game where thre are 60 skills but to reach the power tier you just need 3 of those maxxed and know where to get the proper equipment(I'm sure you could do this with classed based games but you'd be beating around the bush for an effect that's not meant to be).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I don't really get it.
So you'd be max power, more or less in a day? The entire rest of the game, for 6 or 8 months (the average players stick around an MMO these days) would be End game?
What's your End GAme? Raiding, PvP, something else?
Good topic Ihmotep.
Or you could make a game where there is no end game or leveling, or any skill gains...
Skip right to the power tier game.
I ask this only as a hypothetical...
Let's say you could create a new toon in a MMO, let's take WoW for example based on average familiarity with that game, and as soon as you create the toon, you are max level with all your skills maxed out (weapon skills, defense, etc) and given a basic set of gear appropriate for a level 80 toon (like all level 80 greens).
But instead of having skipped 80 levels worth of content and zones, the ENTIRE game, back to orignal content like Molten Core and all the dungeons and raids and quests and mobs/npcs were "bumped" up to level 80 money rewards, reputations gains, gear rewards...
All the dungeon/raid Tiers are adjusted to level 80 and go in a straight progression from the old school dungeon sets and dungeons rewards to heroic epics and the old epic dungeon sets to entry level non-tiered raid gear and Tier 1-8.
So the game was essentially about doing the quests for the story and money/reputation gains and some rewards, doing the dungeons/raids for gear and story and rep, and doing PvP... oh and everything still used the achievement system.
Would you play?
I used to think this design would be a good idea. If END GAME is so great, then why have any Before the End Game, game?
Why not just start DAoC with max level toons and go straight to RvR if RvR is so great?
It SOUNDS like it makes sense. However, IMO, one of the things that makes RvR fun, is building a character up to participate in it.
The character build is more fun, because there's something to look forward to participating in, once you get to max. The RvR is more fun because you appreciate playing it after spending time building your character. PLUS, you can always go back and build an alt, so now you're playing end game, AND before the end game.
So to answer your hypo, I"d probably play this game about a month, and get bored.
Why am I doing these dungeons and raids? Just for money and gear? What am I doing with the money? BUying gear? So the entire game is about getting gear? That's not something I"d enjoy for very long.
I don't even particularly like managing gear. I'm actually fine with games like CoH that do away with gear for the most part, and only deal with character progression.
same amount of work = same reward. Life isnt fair like what ianasubi said. Some people's lives give them more time to play video games, others dont. I would NOT want to play a game where a casual player can stay on par with a hardcore player with less work. It is a dumb idea and not worth discussing. Look at the poll, 75% say its fair, 3% say it isnt.
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Well it'd also be about story and exploration.
Designing a game with no progression in terms of levels / skills means you can have progression via CONTENT, through elements of story, unlocks, achievements, and true character building in terms of reputation, infamy, that kind of stuff.
It doesn't have to be about gear at all, but people do like their shiny epics so might as well throw them a bone, as gear progression in terms of power tiers is very popular and motivating for many a MMO gamers in both PvE and PvP.
You are running into a strawman fallancy here. You are taking one small part of the argument and build it up to represent the entire argument so you can easily destroy it and give an impression that you invalidated the whole of the argument.
Too much of the arguing on both sides is based on 'epeen envy'. People build up one aspect of the game into a all-or-nothing, 'be all ' metric of a player's worth and then argue about where they should fall on that metric. You receive some epic loot and then feel that people who have not 'suffered' as much as you did do not deserve it because it lessens your own accomplishments. It creates a fake competition where a competition is not needed or even logical.
There should not be any competition between the players in the leveling process (unless the devs for some reason explicitly make it a race). Players who treat it as a race are deluding themselves. Basing the 'casual vs hardcore' debate on this is just fluff.