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Is "end game" really so important in MMORPG's?
Povey151
Member Posts: 250
I'm sure this has been discussed quite a bit here and there but I've never seen a discussion on it so I'd like to see some peoples opinions.
Today I canceled my wow account (for like the 50th time) and I'm not sure if I'll permanently quit or not, but the whole base reason is leveling to end game. Wow, no doubt, is an "end game" type of game. All competitive PVP and all advancement PVE is based on end game material. Wow's 3.2 patch has a lot centered around making leveling easier (mounts at lower levels etc. etc.) which to me shows they are trying to get higher level players to level alts (to maintain that subscription no doubt).
The problem is that someone has to play through 1-60 in azeroth (several days of played time), 60-70 in the outlands (around 20 hours or so), and then 70-80 in northrend (another 50 or so hours). Then they have to get gear (up to hundreds of hours) to find out whether or not they like their class enough to actually stick with it or just barely enough to keep them leveling.
Wow to me has always been about end game, get to end game... the leveling sucks. And I'm not the only one that feels this way, ALL of my friends feel the same way and from what I've read... many posters and players feel the same way.
Then today I got thinking about it, I don't want to be forced to get to end game to do things that are enjoyable, and then be forced to do it again if you randomly decide to ruin my class, or any number of other things that you could do. I want leveling content that is fun or the importance of level taken off of content (within reason of course).
The best example of a game that I can think of to (with relative success) pull this off is Asheron's Call. Leveling was fun, there were actually things to do if you decided you didn't want to level at that moment because you weren't uber restricted to leveling. There was more than 2 areas you could level in at your level, etc. etc..
This all made me think back to an article that I read, maybe it was on here, where a person was interviewing people at E3 and asking them where they were in wow and they were all saying their levels instead of "westfall" or "scarlet monastery: cathedral" or any number of things. Content prior to end game is just the chore to get to end game.
Now I'm not trying to say that leveling is always going to be the most fun part of a game or that it should be, but I feel like a game that adds fun things to do at every level and takes the importance away from "end game" and spreads it more evenly throughout the game will have a good chance at being wildly successful.
I wanted to add that a replyer posted about whether or not I feel as though MMORPG's are a long term hobby and then added some riff raff about wow adding content all the time. I would like to say that if there was content worth participating in at levels other than the max level then people wouldn't fly to end game and MMORPG's could still be a viable long term hobby. I've played asheron's call off and on since it's release (almost 10 years ago... wow) and never made it to the level cap.
Now I guess I've detracted a bit in sounding as though I'm saying endgame shouldn't exist, because it should, but I'm also saying it shouldn't be the only point of a game... which right now is pretty much the trend.
Can someone pro "end game only content" list their opinions and reasons instead of wow's sale numbers?
Comments
Does the end game matter? Not to those of us who rarely, if ever, get there. I usually burn my self out way before I get to this supposed end game.
Getting to 80 in days in no great accomplishment after watching Tim the Enchantor take months to get to 126 in Asheron's Call. And that was with an entire guild passing up experience to him. Of course, that was before XP chains were created. It took me over 4 years to get to 80.
I hear ya man. I fucking HATE "end-game" mentality. I pine about games like Anarchy Online (in the old days) when NO ONE had reached the level 200 cap and still everyone had plenty of fun things to do. In fact, at level 200 you had basically "beat the game", and it was time to roll an alt. People expected it to take a year to hit cap, and had a great time in the meantime.
I mean, if the "content" of a game doesn't happen 'till the level cap, why not just eliminate levels entirely?? The choice of course is to make a game that's fun and engaging at ALL levels, and where a level 1 can have just as much fun as a capped toon on any given day.
But that would require someone to have some balls and step away from the wow-clone mentality.
I remember Tim hitting 126 as well =D
I had several characters that I've played over the years since asheron's call released. My latest stint was back in March. I never hit end game and I loved it the WHOLE TIME because there was always something fun to do. End game was not fundamentally different than level 1.
this x10
I think it all depends on if you view an MMORPG as a long term hobby. Games with good endgames like WoW contantly keep new content coming for their players.
I totally agree. Most MMOs lose my interest far before I ever reach the fabled end-game because getting there is just agonizingly boring. I really wish MMO developers would focus more on making the road to level cap a fun and enjoyable experience. There will always undoubtedly be those who rush to reach the level cap, driven by some ridiculous desire to "win", but what about those of us that are more interested in the journey than the destination.
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Well since I've been playing them for... oh 12 years or so now... I'd say yes I do view them as a long term hobby. Wow is still an "end game" type of game and adding content doesnt change that nor does it detract from the fact that leveling blows and the majority of MMORPG'ers that have voiced their opinion on the subject agree with me.
If you make leveling fun enough people wont FLY to the end and MMORPG's can still be a long term hobby....
To add: the amount of content added in wow's "patches" is a joke and laughably small.
Yeah pretty much nailed it here.
... nor does it detract from the fact that leveling blows and the majority of MMORPG'ers that have voiced their opinion on the subject agree with me.
90% of the gaming community disagrees with you... with their choice of game.
I think game get to a point where most of their player base is.. after 4 years or so,, mostly at the level cap. It would be lazy of the developers not to make end game content.
I guess you didnt notice that MMOs like AC and AO that kept adding levels so that getting to max level was impossible stagnated whereas EQ that eventually becoame all about end game raiding flourished.
A few recent MMOs like CoH and LotRO tried to be more about leveling than end game but CoH floundered and LotRO added increasing emphasis to end game raids.
If you want to be successful in the MMO genre you absolutely must have a good end game and good PvP.
... nor does it detract from the fact that leveling blows and the majority of MMORPG'ers that have voiced their opinion on the subject agree with me.
90% of the gaming community disagrees with you... with their choice of game.
No they don't, whats the average population of a wow server? How many people are actively leveling alt's at any given time? I think i've had 30 people say they can't stand leveling, especially alts, to every 1 person that likes it (in wow and on their forums)
Right now there isn't an option to really avoid this and since wow is the best of what there is people are going to play it. Dont confuse people not wanting something different with the industry only creating one style because they want to make money.
In fact, how many end game people only log on for their weekly raids?
I'm not saying you shouldn't have a good end game, but why is end game the only focus of so many games any more...
Such a game exists, its called EVE.
But you knew that.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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No it is not important because all games must have an ending sooner or later. What should be more important is more of a focus on the journey to the end. Developers should provide sufficient amount of content so that we aren't finishing the game within 2 weeks so to speak. Endgame is overrated.
I contest that any game that ends when you reach the highest level isn't truly an MMO. Therefore, MMOs should not have levels, nor a distinction between "end-game" and "game".
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Although I do agree with this, roughly, i think there needs to still be a method to measure advancement. Be it equipment, skill advancement, etc... which translates to "level"
Although I do agree with this, roughly, i think there needs to still be a method to measure advancement. Be it equipment, skill advancement, etc... which translates to "level"
I agree. Here is the problem though: the game needs to be ABOUT the game-world / community, not ABOUT the levels. Playing D&D, one is more focused on the world rather than what level he or she is (in my experience anyways). When the game is at its core about achievement, well....it just doesn't need to be made as an MMO. Most MMOs that are like that would be much better games if they weren't made as MMOs. (looking at you WoW :P)
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Im greedy. I want a nice start, a good journey and an awesome endgame.
And I actually think Im not the only one.
I agree, for the most part, with most of the posts so far. Level grinding to get to endgame material is getting old. As for the comment on a game with an end isn't an MMO, I would say that a game with an end isn't really a RPG but is still MMO in the sense that it is massive multi-player online. The fundamental flaw in today's games is that they are NOT MMORPG, they are just multi-player. They act like it is impossible to have a RPG be multi-player, but they do seem to want our money!! It is always about money, not the players, not the communities or anything else! MONEY MONEY MONEY!
Making great online games is sort of like making great TV shows. They gear all of the content to the lowest denominator in order to draw in customers or ratings. So many great shows have been axed because of supposedly low viewership and yet they keep this other crap on TV because they get people with an 8th-grade education to watch. In order for things to change we have to convince game developers that we are willing to pay MONEY for a great, well thought out, take your time, more balanced playing MMORPG, and that we actually want it to be RPG. I remember playing so many great single player games that had way more roleplaying than WoW or most all other MMO's I have tried. The Elder Scrolls series, Temple of Elemental Evil, Freelancer, and even Neverwinter Nights all had more RPG in them than WoW.
Getting back to the endgame stuff, however, I would say that I would love to play a game that is FUN thoughout and you don't have to wait until you level cap before getting the fun PvP or gear. If only they could take a lesson from some of the pen and paper games that weren't level based but skill based. Obviously, EVE is on the right track with a skill based system, but some have complained that they feel outmatched with their starting ship vs an established player whom has been with the game since launch. Sadly, though, it is almost like gaming companies don't learn from both their own and other manufacturers mistakes.
You shouldn't have to a sub fee to grind through X levels so you can magically start playing the real game. Games like EvE have shown us it's possible to create a system where everyone can play together from day 1 and I'm just not going to do the level treadmill anymore, I'm tired of it - this is the main reason I decided not to stick with LOTRO which is otherwise a great game.
There was a post a little ways up about how successful games keep adding new content for their players to do. That's great and I fully supprot that trend continuing, but why make that content inaccessible for new players? At the very least, if the game isn't going to start until 'end game' the leveling process should be optional and done offline - you should be able to start with a max level character if that's what the whole game will be based around anyway.
I think you're looking for an answer that is related to game design i.e. what are the benefits to design the game such that adding only end game contents is better than making level 1 accessible contents.
But the answer is more political and economical than anything related to anything done in the game itself. I know a few people in the game industry so I can speak with some certainty.
The simple reason is that when you have an idea about a new MMO (action, RPG, FPS, etc), you will be spending on average for a large game like WoW, FFXI the next 3 or 4 years before a game can be commercially launched. I chose WoW and FFXI because they are both made by well-established companies in the gaming industry (and it is important to focus on the big players). The bigger the company, the more complicated the politics. So if you are going to be occupying a full team of game development resources for the next 3 or 4 years, you HAVE to convince the people high up that this will a huge success.
Forget about the 50 million dollars spend on the development, launch and advertising costs, but think more in terms of cost of opportunities. If you are a well established company, your resources have the experiences and knowledge base to create games that will generate lots of revenue. So if you occupy a team, your NEW idea (however innovative / outlandish it may be) must be more profitable (on paper at least) than what they can produce otherwise.
So now Square-Enix have Final Fantasy X and each of the FF series are selling great for consoles. Now you can have a team to continue making FFXI as another good ol' FF game, or you can try to make it a MMORPG. That MMORPG better show greater potential for making money than making FFXI just another FF or you will not get the go ahead. A game will cost 50 million (let's say) to develop, and will make let's say selling for 10 million copies worldwide, your game is worth (at $50 a copy) 550 million dollars.
Now you convinced your boss to make a MMO. You will spend 10 or 20% of the times laying out the ground work like game engines, rendering, graphics, world, motion, etc. Then you can actually START developing the game. Then you might spend another 30 - 40% making the characters, play balancing them, animating them. Then you can start with making the mobs, play balance those into the games. So by the time a player can create and play a level 1 character, the company have already spent more than 50% of their time and resources. So if you have access to everything at level 1, then a player CAN fly through everything and make a snap judgement. You just gave the player the power to waste 50% of your effort, then with all the games out there, would you want a player to make such a snap judgement on your contents without actually using them to their full potential?
FFXI and WoW and pretty much many of the games out there have features that players never fully understand at first (let's say PvP in WoW). But after you are "forced" to play it many times, you'll get the hang of it and then can start exploring the full potential. I personally like the experience loss in FFXI, because when I was new to the game and we aggro two mobs instead of one, everyone in the party runs like hell and it's literally feeling like you are running for your life. I feel my heart pounding when I see the second mob coming. In WoW, I could care less about dying. But experience loss sounds so bad on paper and the first few times when you play that it would easily be a factor in deter ring players from playing this game. I don't think I can find another game that can scare me like FFXI
mm for now yes end game is important but i bet a lot of people work to get rid of end game focus
the problem is this if they add mega random factor in game
it makes the game way longer and harder to design
but in the futur random will be the biggest fun factor in mmo
I am with you guys. End game shouldn't be where all the focus is. These are games we pay monthly for and should get to spend a long time in. I would enjoy them focus on every level for fun all the way. Each level could be considered epic fun. : ) There could be raiding/grouping/soloing all the way up.
If they want to keep focusing on end game and make the rest of the game trivial to the point it flies by with nothing to do but solo .. just remove it. It is pointless anyway.
First of all, all parts of the game should be fun.
I never liked WoW because I'm an altoholic. I created many chars and never got to 40 in the year or so that I played. To me the game was boring as hell. It was ok when there was still world pvp (pre tbc).
But I like a game where people can find a group or solo at any level (CoH/CoV). To me the WoW system of solo until you hit max level, then do nothing but raid is just stupid.
Endgame is BORING, take it out of MMO altogether. It's fun to do it once and then it SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't play another MMO until the leveling and grinding is out out out .. shoo shoo shoo..BEGONE!
*breaths*