Lets re-iterate a little on what little we know in regards to player numbers:
From the APB FAQ:
Approximately 10,000 players per world consisting of 100 player district maps.
We've also been told
100 players instances
So there seems to be some link between Districts and Instancing, and numbers of 10,000 and 100 thrown about.
That's about all we know. If you want to magically conjure up assumptions and convince yourself it is or isn't an MMO, good for you. But until MORE information is revealed, this topic will only continue to go in circles... thankfully it hasn't quite yet spiralled down into the black hole of "what makes an MMO an MMO...."
I leave you all now to jabber away incessantly.....
All this is, is a fps in the Diablo mold with an increase in the player count. Everything is instanced. So no, for my standards, this is not a MMO. It is a FPS that aspires to be a MMO, but does not quite make it. Call it what you want.
For me to call something a MMO you have to have common areas beyond a central meeting point. So I don't consider Guild Wars a MMO either. But this site has different standard that are less restrictive, so it does meet theirs.
GTA:SA Multiplayer has like 200 people per server does that make it an mmo? No. Counter Strike has 100,000 people playing at the same time but on different servers does that make it an mmo? No. Massively Multiplayer needs to be an online persistent world where in theory thousands of people can come together.
If the characters are persistent in SA:MP and the claims of 200 on a server are true then that GTA mod pretty much qualifies as an MMO.
Counterstrike has no persistence (world or character) and no main world for the players to gather. It doesn't really have any of the qualities of an MMO.
What you sate an MMO *needs* to be is your personal opinion. Resets int he game world happen in several MMOs that are unquestionably MMOs - ATITD and PotBS are the first two to come to mind.
If MMO gamers spent less time trying to label, classify and pigeon hole their MMOs and spent more time just playing them they would probably enjoy them a lot more than they currently do. As it stands, large chunks of the MMO gamer populace will immediately reject and rebuke an MMO - sight unseen - based on certain keywords in a basic description of it. .
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
GTA:SA Multiplayer has like 200 people per server does that make it an mmo? No. Counter Strike has 100,000 people playing at the same time but on different servers does that make it an mmo? No. Massively Multiplayer needs to be an online persistent world where in theory thousands of people can come together.
If the characters are persistent in SA:MP and the claims of 200 on a server are true then that GTA mod pretty much qualifies as an MMO.
Counterstrike has no persistence (world or character) and no main world for the players to gather. It doesn't really have any of the qualities of an MMO.
What you sate an MMO *needs* to be is your personal opinion. Resets int he game world happen in several MMOs that are unquestionably MMOs - ATITD and PotBS are the first two to come to mind.
If MMO gamers spent less time trying to label, classify and pigeon hole their MMOs and spent more time just playing them they would probably enjoy them a lot more than they currently do. As it stands, large chunks of the MMO gamer populace will immediately reject and rebuke an MMO - sight unseen - based on certain keywords in a basic description of it. .
I think that is valid, to reject certain games out of hand based on a certain criteria.
This is a site for MMORPGs supposedly. When I'm here, I want to discuss MMORPGs, and what kind of MMORPG I'd like to play.
It doesn't mean I don't like First Person Shooter games, or multi player online games like Diablo. Diablo is a great game, and lots of fun. BUT, when I want to play an MMORPG, or discuss MMORPGs, Diablo doesn't qualify any more than Call of Duty.
It's like I go to a wine tasting party, and someone wants to taste or talk about beer. Yes, beer can be very good, and there are beer tasting parties, and there's nothing wrong with beer, but dude, we're at a wine tasting party right now, so could you stick with the program?
Basic definition of MMORPG, Massive = more than 128 people online in the same world at the same time.
Roleplaying= in the computer game realm, character progression, and character stats more important in determining the outcome of combat than player twitch skills. The progression is persistant (saved till the next time you play), however a reset does not negate the character progression, just means ya got to start a new game, like making an alt.
Doesn't mean massive multi player first person Shooter games are bad, or that I wouldn't want to play them, doesn't mean that games with less than 128 players in the same game world are bad or that I wouldn't want to play them, but they aren't MMORPGs.
By the general definition of MMO you need > 500 I believe
Source?
On this site, the game has to support at least 500 players, per server.
But really at what point does a MOG become a MMOG?
I thought 150 players in a FPS (Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising) was pretty massive.
So I think it should based of type of game, it is.
It's my understanding that everything goes in multiples of 8. 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256, etc.
When you are designing a multi player online game, you can design for the server to hold one of these multiples in a game, like 64, or 128.
This is the general architecture that games like call of duty, or Diablo use.
However, a MMORPG uses some thing completely different, so they don't have to stick to these multiples of 8, and can have for example 3K concurrent users on a single server in the same world, which distinguishes the MASSIVE game, from the multiplyaer online game.
I don't really know the math or programming which leads to the multiples of 8, but that's the way I understand it.
So, once a games breaks this rule, and has like 347 players in the game, it's Massive.
If you see 64, 128, 256 ot less, it's probably just multiplayer, not Massive.
By the general definition of MMO you need > 500 I believe
Source?
On this site, the game has to support at least 500 players, per server.
But really at what point does a MOG become a MMOG?
I thought 150 players in a FPS (Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising) was pretty massive.
So I think it should based of type of game, it is.
Their 500+ criteria isn't for MMOs, but to qualify for listing on the site since the site would be both unwieldy and useless if they listed every single MMO out there.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
100 people per instance, and 10,000 person servers is an MMO.
The starcraft/counterstrike argument is stupid.
Counterstrike you don't develop a persistant character. You join a game, every player is equal and you finish a game and its over.
Thats what defines an MMO.
That you have a large amount of players persistantly existing on a server. Besides; professional game developer VS some shmuck on the forums. I'd go with the judgement of the professional.
You mean like Bill Roper when he called Hellgate: Failure an mmo? lol
So much for your "professional vs. schmuck" theory.
100 people per instance, and 10,000 person servers is an MMO.
The starcraft/counterstrike argument is stupid.
Counterstrike you don't develop a persistant character. You join a game, every player is equal and you finish a game and its over.
Thats what defines an MMO.
That you have a large amount of players persistantly existing on a server. Besides; professional game developer VS some shmuck on the forums. I'd go with the judgement of the professional.
Important information is going to be how big the instances are and how easily it is to move between them. That will determin a lot how the game feels. For example if the instances are relatively small and requires loading screens to move between its going to put a big crimp in some peoples play style.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
100 people per instance, and 10,000 person servers is an MMO.
No, 100 people per instance is a big chat room, but its certainly not an MMO. There just is no "massive" in 100.
Guess it depends on how seamless the instances are woven into the whole. Too many unanswered questions.
Can you move between instances? If you can, is it seamless or loading screen? If you can, and the instance is full, what happens? Denied entry or does another instance spawn? Can you communicate with players server wide?
Well, despite my desire to really want to like this game, chalk it up as another game that better have a free trial before I pay.
100 people per instance, and 10,000 person servers is an MMO.
No, 100 people per instance is a big chat room, but its certainly not an MMO. There just is no "massive" in 100.
You're dismissing the count of 10,000 to a server and that the characters are persistent. If we are only going to gauge an MMO by the size of its instances, then WOW falls greatly short of your criteria.
Now, if you require the world to be persistent, then the next question is what would you categorize PotBS and ATITD as?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Originally posted by Ihmotepp It's my understanding that everything goes in multiples of 8. 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256, etc. ....... I don't really know the math or programming which leads to the multiples of 8, but that's the way I understand it.
All modern computers are digital, they use Binary Number systems. All the data and the signals flying about, at the lowest hardware level, are either a 0 or 1. On or Off.
A single element of data, the lowest level is called a "Bit".
- With one Bit of data, you can represent a max of 2 values. 0 or 1..... eg 0, 1 - With two Bits of data, you can represent a max of 4 different values, from 0 to 3. eg 00, 01, 10, 11 - With three bits of data, you can represent a max of 8 different values, from 0 to 7, eg 000, 001, 010, 011, 110, etc etc - With four bits of data, you can represent a max of 16 different values, from 0 to 15, eg 0000, 0001, 0010, 0011, etc etc
So, notice how each time you add an extra "Bit" of data, the total number of values (or unique combinations) you can represent doubles. That's why everything from RAM to Hard Disks don't have nice numbers ending in zeros. That why you dont see a number like 1000, you'll always get 1024.
Re your observation of multiples of 8: You see a single "Byte" = 8 "Bits". Now the reason 8 bits, and 16, and 32 etc are popular is because at these numbers, it's a lot easier and more efficient to manipulate the data for low level instructions sets inside a CPU. That's at the lowest level, down at the assembly language/machine code level, which no sane person would want to program in, but that's what the CPU actually understands. Everything above that, from the OS to programming languages like C++ and Java just hides that evil unreadable binary stuff from us users.
Its also why Neo in the Matrix was seeing lots of 1s and 0s....
Playing in AOC instances where like 100 players max and randomly had 20 - 30 people in a instance and it was fun.Just lacked content so hopefully APB gives content
Comments
I think there's a hub and then there's "instances" of the city with up to 100 players, so it's around the same as AoC in this case.
Lets re-iterate a little on what little we know in regards to player numbers:
From the APB FAQ:
We've also been told
So there seems to be some link between Districts and Instancing, and numbers of 10,000 and 100 thrown about.
That's about all we know. If you want to magically conjure up assumptions and convince yourself it is or isn't an MMO, good for you. But until MORE information is revealed, this topic will only continue to go in circles... thankfully it hasn't quite yet spiralled down into the black hole of "what makes an MMO an MMO...."
I leave you all now to jabber away incessantly.....
All this is, is a fps in the Diablo mold with an increase in the player count. Everything is instanced. So no, for my standards, this is not a MMO. It is a FPS that aspires to be a MMO, but does not quite make it. Call it what you want.
For me to call something a MMO you have to have common areas beyond a central meeting point. So I don't consider Guild Wars a MMO either. But this site has different standard that are less restrictive, so it does meet theirs.
If the characters are persistent in SA:MP and the claims of 200 on a server are true then that GTA mod pretty much qualifies as an MMO.
Counterstrike has no persistence (world or character) and no main world for the players to gather. It doesn't really have any of the qualities of an MMO.
What you sate an MMO *needs* to be is your personal opinion. Resets int he game world happen in several MMOs that are unquestionably MMOs - ATITD and PotBS are the first two to come to mind.
If MMO gamers spent less time trying to label, classify and pigeon hole their MMOs and spent more time just playing them they would probably enjoy them a lot more than they currently do. As it stands, large chunks of the MMO gamer populace will immediately reject and rebuke an MMO - sight unseen - based on certain keywords in a basic description of it. .
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
If the characters are persistent in SA:MP and the claims of 200 on a server are true then that GTA mod pretty much qualifies as an MMO.
Counterstrike has no persistence (world or character) and no main world for the players to gather. It doesn't really have any of the qualities of an MMO.
What you sate an MMO *needs* to be is your personal opinion. Resets int he game world happen in several MMOs that are unquestionably MMOs - ATITD and PotBS are the first two to come to mind.
If MMO gamers spent less time trying to label, classify and pigeon hole their MMOs and spent more time just playing them they would probably enjoy them a lot more than they currently do. As it stands, large chunks of the MMO gamer populace will immediately reject and rebuke an MMO - sight unseen - based on certain keywords in a basic description of it. .
I think that is valid, to reject certain games out of hand based on a certain criteria.
This is a site for MMORPGs supposedly. When I'm here, I want to discuss MMORPGs, and what kind of MMORPG I'd like to play.
It doesn't mean I don't like First Person Shooter games, or multi player online games like Diablo. Diablo is a great game, and lots of fun. BUT, when I want to play an MMORPG, or discuss MMORPGs, Diablo doesn't qualify any more than Call of Duty.
It's like I go to a wine tasting party, and someone wants to taste or talk about beer. Yes, beer can be very good, and there are beer tasting parties, and there's nothing wrong with beer, but dude, we're at a wine tasting party right now, so could you stick with the program?
Basic definition of MMORPG, Massive = more than 128 people online in the same world at the same time.
Roleplaying= in the computer game realm, character progression, and character stats more important in determining the outcome of combat than player twitch skills. The progression is persistant (saved till the next time you play), however a reset does not negate the character progression, just means ya got to start a new game, like making an alt.
Doesn't mean massive multi player first person Shooter games are bad, or that I wouldn't want to play them, doesn't mean that games with less than 128 players in the same game world are bad or that I wouldn't want to play them, but they aren't MMORPGs.
Source?
On this site, the game has to support at least 500 players, per server.
But really at what point does a MOG become a MMOG?
I thought 150 players in a FPS (Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising) was pretty massive.
So I think it should based of type of game, it is.
Source?
On this site, the game has to support at least 500 players, per server.
But really at what point does a MOG become a MMOG?
I thought 150 players in a FPS (Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising) was pretty massive.
So I think it should based of type of game, it is.
It's my understanding that everything goes in multiples of 8. 16, 32, 64, 128, and 256, etc.
When you are designing a multi player online game, you can design for the server to hold one of these multiples in a game, like 64, or 128.
This is the general architecture that games like call of duty, or Diablo use.
However, a MMORPG uses some thing completely different, so they don't have to stick to these multiples of 8, and can have for example 3K concurrent users on a single server in the same world, which distinguishes the MASSIVE game, from the multiplyaer online game.
I don't really know the math or programming which leads to the multiples of 8, but that's the way I understand it.
So, once a games breaks this rule, and has like 347 players in the game, it's Massive.
If you see 64, 128, 256 ot less, it's probably just multiplayer, not Massive.
Source?
On this site, the game has to support at least 500 players, per server.
But really at what point does a MOG become a MMOG?
I thought 150 players in a FPS (Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising) was pretty massive.
So I think it should based of type of game, it is.
Their 500+ criteria isn't for MMOs, but to qualify for listing on the site since the site would be both unwieldy and useless if they listed every single MMO out there.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
never said it was.
100 people per instance, and 10,000 person servers is an MMO.
The starcraft/counterstrike argument is stupid.
Counterstrike you don't develop a persistant character. You join a game, every player is equal and you finish a game and its over.
Thats what defines an MMO.
That you have a large amount of players persistantly existing on a server.
Besides; professional game developer VS some shmuck on the forums. I'd go with the judgement of the professional.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
You mean like Bill Roper when he called Hellgate: Failure an mmo? lol
So much for your "professional vs. schmuck" theory.
Important information is going to be how big the instances are and how easily it is to move between them. That will determin a lot how the game feels. For example if the instances are relatively small and requires loading screens to move between its going to put a big crimp in some peoples play style.
No, 100 people per instance is a big chat room, but its certainly not an MMO. There just is no "massive" in 100.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No, 100 people per instance is a big chat room, but its certainly not an MMO. There just is no "massive" in 100.
Guess it depends on how seamless the instances are woven into the whole. Too many unanswered questions.
Can you move between instances? If you can, is it seamless or loading screen? If you can, and the instance is full, what happens? Denied entry or does another instance spawn? Can you communicate with players server wide?
Well, despite my desire to really want to like this game, chalk it up as another game that better have a free trial before I pay.
No, 100 people per instance is a big chat room, but its certainly not an MMO. There just is no "massive" in 100.
You're dismissing the count of 10,000 to a server and that the characters are persistent. If we are only going to gauge an MMO by the size of its instances, then WOW falls greatly short of your criteria.
Now, if you require the world to be persistent, then the next question is what would you categorize PotBS and ATITD as?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
WARNING, Off Topic...
All modern computers are digital, they use Binary Number systems. All the data and the signals flying about, at the lowest hardware level, are either a 0 or 1. On or Off.
A single element of data, the lowest level is called a "Bit".
- With one Bit of data, you can represent a max of 2 values. 0 or 1..... eg 0, 1
- With two Bits of data, you can represent a max of 4 different values, from 0 to 3. eg 00, 01, 10, 11
- With three bits of data, you can represent a max of 8 different values, from 0 to 7, eg 000, 001, 010, 011, 110, etc etc
- With four bits of data, you can represent a max of 16 different values, from 0 to 15, eg 0000, 0001, 0010, 0011, etc etc
So, notice how each time you add an extra "Bit" of data, the total number of values (or unique combinations) you can represent doubles. That's why everything from RAM to Hard Disks don't have nice numbers ending in zeros. That why you dont see a number like 1000, you'll always get 1024.
Re your observation of multiples of 8: You see a single "Byte" = 8 "Bits". Now the reason 8 bits, and 16, and 32 etc are popular is because at these numbers, it's a lot easier and more efficient to manipulate the data for low level instructions sets inside a CPU. That's at the lowest level, down at the assembly language/machine code level, which no sane person would want to program in, but that's what the CPU actually understands. Everything above that, from the OS to programming languages like C++ and Java just hides that evil unreadable binary stuff from us users.
Its also why Neo in the Matrix was seeing lots of 1s and 0s....
Playing in AOC instances where like 100 players max and randomly had 20 - 30 people in a instance and it was fun.Just lacked content so hopefully APB gives content