But there aren't really any games purely for soloers, you can group in pretty much every game out there. What I don't get are the people who want to group, so they want to tell everyone else that they can't solo. I don't see any soloers saying they want to stop people from grouping. Anyone can play these games any way they want. What's the problem with that?
Anyone doesn't have to play the same game as me- they can play a game which caters to their interests, which in this case is solo content.
There are no MMO's purely for soloers, yet there are no MMO's purely for groupers either- this should change.
Those who want to solo can go do that for all I care, in a game designed for them.
Soloers can only benefit from groupers- soloers can only harm groupers. You don't have as good community as you would have in a group based game. Soloers rather solo than group up, which leads to less players lfg in general..
There are group players who also play solo when they cannot find a group or due to real time commitments (limited time or frequent real life interruptions) cannot commit to a group. Many of these players will not play a game that has no solo content, so by excluding solo play you are also excluding people who are available for grouping some of time, and thereby reducing the pool of people that group.
People are not just solo or group players, there is also a big pool that like both.
The answer is not to punish solo players to encourage them to group, and thereby making their experience less fun, the answer is to make grouping fun so that people want to group.
From 2002 to 2007 I was part of a great community of MMO players. We started out with Earth and Beyond and moved to various games befroe settling in in WoW. We based ourself on the idea that everyone gets to play how they want to and we do not force interaction on our members. Despite this very solo-friendly attitude the community flourished. People would help out whenever they could and people liked sharing their ideas and personal experiences. We got to the point where we really cared about the people who played and not just their in-game characters. When some of our members were called to serve in Iraq, we were really worried for them. When we finally ended up in WoW we had a solid core of people who cared about keeping the community alive. In the new game we quickly attracted new members who liked our philosophy about the game and the guild. In the end it was the Raid or Quit mentality of the vannilla WoW endgame that destroyed our community. As people run out of things to do we decided that we could try our hand at raiding. After a few stumbles we started doing pretty well and found out that we enjoyed the challenge. However, as things progressed, people started to burn out. The flexibility and freedom that attracted so many of us to the guild was being pushed aside since you either progressed with the raid or you fell behind. We were attracting a more group-focused types of players now and the soloers were slowly being marginalized. Those of us who tried to maintain both gameplay styles were burning out even quicker. With so much emphasis on grouping and raiding the groupers were taking over the guild and changing its policies to fit their playstyle better. As the gap widened the groupers felt that those who could not raid were 'dead weight' and started to ignore them when it came to guild decisions. When the inevitable reaction came, the guild started imploding until both the groupers and soloers scattered all over and the community was dead. When our emphasis was on cooperative solo play, we were able to keep together a variety of players who were able to play the way they wanted because doing so did not negatively impact those around them. If peopel were on at the same time, they would do stuff together because they wanted to. Once we switched to group-focused gameplay we had to get more picky since If the other player was not as dedicated or did not have the time to fully participate our own gameplay would suffer. So we started seperating into cliques based on our ability to group-play and a once cohesive guild fragmented. So I have some very good examples on how too much emphasis on group gameplay kills communities.
But those problems don't exist in FFXI, you know why? Because it abandons the 'solo' factor. In the end your example shows that the both can't coexist together without problems- that's why I propose to split them up.
I do not know how good this community you were a part of was, I do believe it was better than what it is now in WoW and the like though. If it is enough for me, I don't know. Without grouping I would never have met at least 85% of the players in my friend list, that's for sure.
But if a solo friendly community can flourish, that is a good thing. I just don't see it working together without sacrificing things from one or the other. Interesting is though, that I haven't heard any complaints from solo players saying that grouping 'killed' their communities. I'm glad I've finally heard one! Widens the perspective I had for sure.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Isn't it the grouper's mantra that World of Warcraft sucks because too many people prefer to solo in the game? Soloers outnumber groupers, I have absolutely no doubt about that. It's the underlying reason why you people are so dead set against allowing soloers equal access to content, for fear of your play style being dumped like sack of rotten potatoes. The whole path of least resistance tripe is nothing but crap. If given the choice to group or solo, people will choose to do so because they enjoy it more, not because of some arbitrary belief that is would be easier. You should group because you enjoy it, not because it's the easiest or only way to get rewards. How can soloing be the path of least resistance anyway, you invest just as much time and effort as groupers. You may not have to wait for people to sign up, but how does that equate to exclusive content or perks? The point being, it isn't justifiable. Developers arbitrarily decide to make grouping and raiding more rewarding. I'm still waiting for them to get smart and realize that catering to soloers on an equal footing will only increase their income. I guarantee you that a game that allowed soloers and duos to access all the content would be a huge success.
Oh you're talking about the solo game I proposed, there. Sure, it would be a huge success, as well as the 'dark side' of it, an MMO that is group dependant (in a casual way, of course).
In WoW most players solo, because that is the easiest way to go. I did it too, I soloed/duoed all the way to 40 (when I quit), still missing that party aspect all the time.. it was just so simple to go and solo levels. But it doesn't mean I prefer solo, no. Making groups was a headache compared to the simpliness of just going out and questing. From personal experience I disagree that the path of least resistance is crap.
The fact that soloers invest just as much time and effort as groupers is part of the problem. Why group, when solo is just as easy/hard? Without a carrot on a stick players will just do the easy thing. But what I don't agree with is Forcing soloers to group up, especially in endgame. If you play a solo MMO, you should be able to do everything it has to offer, solo. If you play group MMO, the opposite. This mix of the 2 styles is just messing simple things up, IMO.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Why should that change? Why do you think you're so special that you deserve a game all of your own? Every game out there, you can choose what you do. You want to take away that choice and that's fundamentally wrong. It's not only wrong, but it's financial suicide for any game that might try it because only a tiny percentage of the total market wants to group-only. Soloing doesn't change the community whatsoever, there are lots of really fantastic people who care about the community who have never been in a team in their lives. I think you're seriously projecting here.
If I could choose to have a good community, I would go for that game.. but it's not something I get to decide. If the game is not group dependant, the community is not as good as it could be. That's why I think it should change. There is that something that isn't right about the communities of today's MMO's, and I want to make it right.
I don't want to take away that choice, I want to split them up so that everyone will have a better experience. It's not just about me, do you realize? I want solo friendly game, group friendly game, a mix of the 2, as well as pure PvE, pure PvP, and a mix of the 2 For Everyone to be able to play just as they want, without having to deal with something they don't care about. I don't think it's too much asked, really.
But yeah, I wonder if those fantastic people that solo and care about the community are in the majority or the minority...
I don't know if you can grasp what I mean by 'community' if you haven't experienced it yourself- it goes far beyond what other MMO's tend to offer.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
The real problem here isn't one between soloers and groupers, it's that a very small minority of people can't accept the fact that in the battle between solo and group, soloing won by a landslide.
Why does there have to be a battle? Why not coexist peacefully together, in different games? That is all I am proposing, in the end.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
There are group players who also play solo when they cannot find a group or due to real time commitments (limited time or frequent real life interruptions) cannot commit to a group. Many of these players will not play a game that has no solo content, so by excluding solo play you are also excluding people who are available for grouping some of time, and thereby reducing the pool of people that group. People are not just solo or group players, there is also a big pool that like both. The answer is not to punish solo players to encourage them to group, and thereby making their experience less fun, the answer is to make grouping fun so that people want to group.
Casual group dependant MMO. As far as I know, nobody has ever tried it before.
And if a hardcore group dependant MMO can gather more than half a million players, Ihave a reason to believe that a casual one could make that number 10x as large.
There is a game for both, and always will be. Those aren't going anywhere. What I am proposing is a game tailored exclusively for those without such problems that prefer group play without making it hardcore.
Again, I am not punishing anyone here.. I am saying that more choices can only be a good thing. What I don't want is that every MMO out there becomes what I want. No, I want that one single MMORPG focuses solely on group play, other than that all the million MMO's out there can be as solo friendly as possible, without me caring a single bit.
There's lots of other options to go about it... hardcore solo game? casual PvE? hardcore PvP? Sandbox? Themepark? Mix of all these? Pick your favorite, & enjoy.
Instead of "WoW 2 coming!!!1 PvE, PvP, Solo, Group, Sandbox, Themepark, Casual, Hardcore, Classes, No Classes, Levels, No Levels, all in one single package!!!!1" what we seem to favor today.
EDIT: Oops, penta-post... I must be lagging today
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
The root problem of balancing solo vs. group XP is that players vary in skill and thus vary in how much solo XP they can earn. Let's say players soloing earn the following XP/hour:
Newbies...10 Average...13 Experts...16
(Note this assumes that better play is rewarded with better rewards. In EVE this isn't the case, and as a result EVE avoids the problem - but personally I find the complete lack of correlation between playerskill and advancement to not be very fun in EVE.)
If a group of average players earns 13 XP, things are perfectly balanced for average players. Whether soloing or grouping they earn about 13 xp/hr with a little variance while grouping. Unfortunately Experts earn less XP in the average group (13) than they would soloing (16). Since they're not well incentivized to group, they won't join groups as often and the grouping quality for all players in the game suffers as a result.
The problem is that if an average group of players earns 16 xp/hr, it's always better to group (unless you're an expert totally surrounded by newbies.) An expert will break even, and less skilled players will just outright earn more XP. Groups of all-experts or all-newbies earn more than soloing as well.
I feel the ideal balance is probably somewhere between the two (between 13 and 16 in my example). But there's no perfect solution, at least not in existing group/solo XP models where you have some combination of Elite (group-specific) mobs and/or a Grouping XP Bonus. And the one solution which does perfectly solve the situation (EVE) has such significant downsides that I wouldn't call it 'perfect'.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So, we soloers are never suppose to have a single MMO that treats us like top dogs, it's always going to be groupers and raiders? Bullshit. You're so worried about your play style being ruined, but never give a damn about other play styles getting the crappy end of the stick. Every frigging MMO out there gives groupers and raiders the best content and rewards, bar none. It's about frakking time we soloers get one that truly caters to us.
Respectfully, I prefer to solo...but in an MMOG (Massively Multiplayer Online Game), I recognize that it would be very foolish of me to demand that solo play have anything that "caters" to me.
There are many games that cater to solo players, but not one of them is a Massively Multiplayer Online game - those are designed purposely and specifically to cater to those who enjoy grouping. It is right in the name of the genre. Those of us who like to solo either accept that, in a Massively Multiplayer Online game, the rules of the game encourage and reward grouping (and we adjust accordingly and ask for help from our guilds or join a PUG when necessary)...or we go find a game that is designed to accomodate our needs, wants, and desires as solo players.
No, "Grouping" and "Raiding" is **not** "right there in the name". All MMOG means is there are a lot of other players in the game with you. It doesn't mean "you have to group up and raid in order to achieve top quality or end-game rewards".
It's not a problem with me that MMOGs requires grouping and raiding end-game rewards; my problem is that virtually ALL MMOGs are fundamentally structured the exact same way. (1) character advancement is directly predicated on how much time one has to play, and (2) grouping and raiding always deliver the best content and rewards. However, there is no limitation in coding, or in the technology, that requires either of those things ... but MMOG developers keep producing essentially the same game over and over.
When you structure a game along those two fundamental paradigms, you generate a certain kind of game, and attract certain players, every time. It doesn't matter if you can multiclass, or if it's a sci fi or a fantasy game, or if it has really pretty graphics, or if it is free to play or a subscription; it doesn't matter how good your crafting systems is or how great the voice acting or music is; it doesn't matter what your death penalty is .... because you've created the same game, with the same fundamental dynamic that funnels in hardcore raiders, provides them with a sense of accomplishment and superiority, and leaves the rest having to find some other way of enjoying the game besides what is obviously the end-game top rewards. That makes them 2nd class citizens in the game, paying the same amount but only getting to serve as the "scrubs" that the hardcore power-raiders get to show their shiny stuff off to and kill in PvP.
Also, it makes the developers **have to** scramble to provide new content for the hardcore powergamers, because they consume all the content the fastest ... while the casuals can play the original content for a year or more and **never** get to the end. This means that casual players will be funding new content they will never see to keep the least profitable players happy.
Nothing wrong with that .. other than ALL MMOGs are designed that way (except maybe EVE). In the above system, since there is such a disparity cause by how much time players have to be online playing, all sorts of exploits are possible, such as botting.
I often wonder if the reason that developers refuse to get away from that mold is because that model offers so much room for exploiting, abuse, and profiteering. If a game had a 24/7 advancement system for all players (including gathering gold), players wouldn't find the need to buy gold, or bot their character, just to keep up with guilds or fanatical players that play their chracters 24/7. If soloers had access to the same end-game rewards, then "forced grouping" wouldn't be necessary, and more casual, or nicer groups could then form.
With all the chat channels and guild/family/RP opportunities possible in such games, "socializing" doesn't have to mean spending hours looking for groups or raids, then being checked out to see if your specs or ability meets their needs, then entering an area and shouting "camp check" , then being entirely focused on fulfilling your class role in the group as min-maxers push the group/raid to maximum efficiency. Really? That's socializing to you?
The only time I have ever been able to socialize is through the chat channels to other players who are casually soloing or doing other things; when you have a limited amount of time to do anything with your character, you like to do things to advance them, not spend too much time "socializing"; with a 24/7 advancement system, all players are freed up to socialize more - real socialization, real talking, without the pressure or sense that you're "wasting precious time", or holding up a group or a raid. Who knows? It might even bring real RP back into a game where people don't have to make a choice between efficient advancement and RPing their character.
Massively Multiplayer socializing doens't necessarily mean "grouping" or "raiding"; it only means that now because the fundamental structure of MMOGs - almost every one of them - requires grouping, raiding, min-maxing and efficient use of one's time to advance their characters. Change the fundamental philosophy of the game, and you'll find an entirely different kind of socializing that isn't min-max efficiency "what are your specs?" based. In a different system, what your specs are are not nearly as important as what your character is, or if you have a good sense of humor, or can RP well.
So, we soloers are never suppose to have a single MMO that treats us like top dogs, it's always going to be groupers and raiders? Bullshit. You're so worried about your play style being ruined, but never give a damn about other play styles getting the crappy end of the stick. Every frigging MMO out there gives groupers and raiders the best content and rewards, bar none. It's about frakking time we soloers get one that truly caters to us. If Bioware plays their cards right and don't cave in to the whining groupies and raiders, they might actually tap a huge market that has been waitiing for a truly casual game that doesn't pull the ever present bait and switch that is casual to start, hardcore from middle to end game. The only game that will ever top World of Warcraft will be the one with the balls and the sense to create a casual game from beginning to end with absolutely no preferential treatment towards groupers and raiders. Oh yeah, we all know just how anti-social soloers are. We just pretend it's a single player game and try our hardest not to interact with other players. OMG are you people so frakking clueless? Stop using that tripe as some kind of proof positive that soloing is evil. It's not even remotely true and I challenge you to proove it otherwise.
You are BIGTIME confusing loot drops with solo/group play.I agree with you dude ,the loot should not be raiding only for the elite loot.I also agree most if not all games do it that way,but that can be EASILY changed without changing group play into solo play.
All a developer needs to do is make loot fair across the board,but i will let you in on a hint as to why all games do it this way.
"ELITE" gear NEEDs to be rare,if it was all accessible by every solo player i nthe game,it would no longer be elite gear ,because everyone in the game woudl have it.The whole purpose of elite gear is to get players to try over and over for long periods of time to access it,they do not want everyone to have it ,nor should they.
Now we are back to the solo/group part again.If the mobs that drop the elite drops are catered to a solo player,how on earth would a group find ANY enjoyment or satisfaction or challenge in the game play?The answer is they would not,it would be like handing everything over on a kiddie platter.
I hope you can at least understand the NEED for rarity in elite drops,without rare it is not rare,pretty easy concept to understand really.
I hear Wizard 101 and Freerealms both have exactly what you are asking for.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Originally posted by Ihmotepp however, I do want a team game.Originally posted by angre1
It seems like forced social interaction.
Imagine if you will, that there is a basketball game, and you want to play solo on the same court. That is going to seriously screw up my team based basket ball game.
However, I can go to the tennis court right next door and play singles against an opponent or swim laps in the swimming pool. Or when basketball is not playing I might play a different non-team game on the same court. It is all in the same sporting complex, and does not affect your basketball game. There is no reason something similar cannot be done in an MMO for solo, group and raids.
The basketball game analogy doesn't work. If you DESIGN the game to be a group-oriented game, then it works; if you DESIGN the game to simultaneously provide for both group and individual activities, then it fails. MMOGs are not ineherently analogous to your basketball game; they can be anything the developer wants it to be.
You seem to think that the only reason anyone will group up to do anything is if the **have to** in order to attain some in-game goal; others like you also imply that "everyone" will solo because it is "easier" than forming a group or raid, and that this will ruin the community aspect of the game.
I have news for you: it is not true that the only reason people group up is because they **have to**, nor is the only potential community aspect of an MMOG necessarily structured by forced grouping and raiding. There are more conversations to be had than talent trees, min-max gear, and group/raid strategy. The chat channels are not limited to groups or raids. Players cooperating to achieve a goal doesn't have to be structured around formal groups or formal raids.
What if there was a reward dynamic so that anyone who contributed to a fight got reward in accordance with their contribution, and their chances of receiving some special or great loot was determined by their contribution? If Joe heals or damages or controls X mobs or draws aggro or takes X damage, then they have an independent chance of getting the reward, which doesn't impinge on anyone else's chances. That way, anyone who wants to chip in on a fight can answer the call and they don't even need to join the "raid" or the "group". The dynamics of such open raids or mobs can certainly be worked out and coded?
If one does away with the "forced" aspect of grouping or raiding, a whole different relationship dynamic is generated; it just requires some creative development from a completely different mindset, where perfect control and finely-tuned balances aren't necessary in such situations.
Actually, balancing solo and group play is VERY difficult due to human nature. If I can solo a mob, why would I ever group to kill it? So you end up with a solo game that groupers hate. If I can only kill most mobs with a group, the soloers leave. WoW actually has it right, and is one of the reasons it is so successful. Most of the content is soloable, but if yoy want the gear and the experience of the instances you have to group. It keeps everyone reasonably happy.
I"m not so sure.
Last night I found a perfect example i Vanguard. Now granted, Vanguard was originally a grouping game but it seems that it is a bit more solo friendly at the moment.
I just hit 26 and also found out hat I can't get xp from a mob if it is more than 5 levels below you. So I spent a while going from area to area that indicated a level range that was comfortable for my level. However, what I found was that many of these mobs were paired and not only that, "slightly more difficult than their lvl". So though I could probably take out one in time, taking out two was a bit daunting. Read: I ran when i could.
I finally found a small out of the way area that had a few disgruntled crystal nymphs (or some such thing) and though they are a bit hard because I don't do a huge amount of damage, I can solo them! As a point of note I discovered that while I was fighting them my sense of perception kept going up until i could notice all their little invisible helpers. A Very cool thing about Vanguard. But I digress.
I truly believe that there should NOT be content that is of one lvl for one type of player and then you proceed to move across the map leaving behind the old areas.
I DO believe that all areas should have a mix of content or some should lean toward a few types of content. Then other areas would have more of the other, etc. So there would be for example, high lvl dungeons then some low lvl fields. Or, part of those dungeons one could solo. But farther in you need a group. etc.
In this way, not only do you get a diversity of players but you will also have solo players for the first bit, groupers who will move through to the harder stuff and a possibility that they will send an invite to the solo players to join them.
so no, you wouldn't have "one mob fits all" but you would incorporate a variety of things for anyone to do.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
How can you work on developing a community when nobody will group or talk to you? If you don't need other players to get what you want, the only reason to have them around is to show off your bling. Not enough grouping will destroy any in-game community.
You're confusing grouping with interaction. Forcing people to join a fixed group in order to experience content is one way to get them to interact, giving them incentive to work together is another. The former is FFXI and the latter is EVE.
"How can you work on developing a community when nobody will group or talk to you?"
Be someone that people want to talk to? Do things to encourage people to interact with you?
Your expectation that game mechanics should be designed to force people to talk to you is unrealistic. Just like in real life, you get out of community what you put into it.
When the current mindset of the majority of the community is one that you will do better by yourself, it doesn't matter what I, personally, say or do, players are less likely to want to group up with me. Unless I lie and say I'm a horney teenage queen, or that I'm going to give them 100g to group with me, what am I supposed to do if the game mechanics make it so that grouping or interaction is only an option; and not even the best option? Your expectation that people who like to group are even able to under the curren t conditions is unrealistic. Just like in real life, if the community isn't very friendly, you aren't going to make many friends.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Even though this is about WOW it does a pretty good job explaining solo play in an MMO
Second - PLEASE STOP EQUATING "MULTIPLYER" WITH GROUPING!!
MMO does not mean you have to play WITH someone just alongside them is all.
MMO's in general are about developing your character. The path(s) to do so are the key part of any game. The majority of players are online to do just that and only that. Interracting with others is a by product that some enjoy more than others. the more players a game attracts the more likely to have people who are less "socially acceptable". Group play needs to be optional so as to not force people to group with others they would never group with. the group experience needs to be fun too. It needs to reward your characters (the goal of an MMO) and be fun on a social level as well. If the rewards from group play are different but not BETTER than those from solo or pvp then you will get people grouping to add a social aspect to their character advancement.
I believe that 2 things need to happen to balance group/solo/pvp in MMOs
1 - The rewards need to be the same ability but not the same look. Ideally you should easily identfy the players that have grouped/solo'd/PVP'd to get their uber lootz. This keep rare loot rare but maintains balance too. Originally WOW devs stated that a solo weapon would be just as strong as a raid weapon but it would not look nearly as cool.
2 - You need to simplify grouping by eliminating the holy trinity and add proper tools to allow players to group quickly.
I do agree though that as long as solo play is an option gouping will take a back seat. I don't believe this is due to "path of least resistance" but more to the fact that players don't want to group all the time.
A group only game is a wonderful idea but I don't think it would be financially viable.
The only people who should be soloing are those who really want to challenge themselves, or have too much time on their hands.
You see, you had it at the first part of that sentence and lost it at the last part.
People really need to start realzing that players who solo don't necessarily want to always solo. Players solo for the challenge, for immersion and to play according to when they can play.
Yelling for groups, getting in groups with horrible people, putting up with bad players... these are the things that drive many people to solo.
When I get into game I want to be doing something within 5 minutes. I am not paying 15 per month to yell for groups. I am not paying 15 per month to get half way through a quest only to have someone afk.
I am not paying 15 per month to have everyone in the group but someone feels that they have time to craft, sell stuff, buy stuff and then 20 minutes later joins you.
And this happens all the time. It is not the poster child for wanting to group. Mabve it's how I was brought up, but if I'm in a group then my time is their time and I don't waste other's time. It's a team effort. Not a me effort with other people around.
The best game play experiences I've had were in groups. Sieging, pvp parties, tomb of elendil in LOTRO where it took us 4 hours because a dedicated group of us were determined to make it through even though the rest dropped off or just joined to give advice and not do anything, etc.
I also don't want to group to hear people work through their fascination with toilet humor, discovering "boobies" or wanting to hot chat and show everyone that they are a sexual person.
I - just - don't - care.
So this is why people are driven to soloing. Get a group of people who can be ready in 5 minutes and who are dedicated to the task at hand and I'm there. Always.
Dealing with the rest? I think not. And will always choose to solo until such time as I get the good people. Taht doesn't even mean being the best. I dont' care if we fail. I do care that I have a good time doing it though.
This. For any pro-grouper who does not understand why people like to solo in MMOs, read this.
Groupers talk about socialization: I do not, in fact, I never play an MMO with the intent of meeting new people. I want to group with people who know how their role and know how to play. If I add someone to my friends list, it's not because I find them to be particularly social, it's because I appreciate that they know what they are doing. I'm sorry, but I don't give a rats ass about your personal life or where you are from etc. That's not why I'm in the game. If I want that kind of social interaction, I'll go out and actually meet people.
If I could choose to have a good community, I would go for that game.. but it's not something I get to decide. If the game is not group dependant, the community is not as good as it could be. That's why I think it should change. There is that something that isn't right about the communities of today's MMO's, and I want to make it right. I don't want to take away that choice, I want to split them up so that everyone will have a better experience. It's not just about me, do you realize? I want solo friendly game, group friendly game, a mix of the 2, as well as pure PvE, pure PvP, and a mix of the 2 For Everyone to be able to play just as they want, without having to deal with something they don't care about. I don't think it's too much asked, really. But yeah, I wonder if those fantastic people that solo and care about the community are in the majority or the minority... I don't know if you can grasp what I mean by 'community' if you haven't experienced it yourself- it goes far beyond what other MMO's tend to offer.
But you're simply pulling that out of your ass. Since there are no games out there that are group dependent, are you saying there are no games out there with good communities at all? I would beg to differ. The community has nothing whatsoever to do with forced grouping. In fact, people who enjoy grouping are no better community members, necessarily, than people who enjoy solo or some mix of the two. You get asshats who solo, asshats who group, asshats in the middle. How they play doesn't seem to make a difference.
And maybe you're using "community" differently than I do, maybe you ought to describe it.
The real problem here isn't one between soloers and groupers, it's that a very small minority of people can't accept the fact that in the battle between solo and group, soloing won by a landslide.
Why does there have to be a battle? Why not coexist peacefully together, in different games? That is all I am proposing, in the end.
Because that's not coexisting, that's separating. That's like saying "why couldn't blacks and whites coexist peacefully, just use different bathrooms and drinking fountains?" The reality is, forced grouping isn't financially viable, period. There will never be a major game which caters to people who want everyone to group all the time. It just won't happen, no matter how much you might dream it would. Therefore, you're going to have to deal with the reality that soloers are here to stay, represent the overwhelming majority of the gaming population and are going to get catered to because they have all the money.
You're the one making it a battle. Stop fighting reality.
There is only one COURT, because I'm talking about the RULES OF THE GAME. The rules of the game are the same for everyone on the server. If you change the rules on the server for the solo player, you change the rules on the servr for the group player too, and screw up their group game. AS far as I know, there is no game that has different rules for different players on the same server. So to keep the analogy, shooting solo hoops would definitely scew up a team basketball game. To shoot hoops and not do that, you'd need to be on another court, which means ANOTHER SERVER. Otherwise, you change the rules for everyone, and the group based game has to now play by the solo rules. You've basically said, HEY, I want to change the rules for your fun group based game and turn it into a solo game, and you should be happy with that, because I like solo games! Uh, no, I still want a grouping game. Your'e saying WoW is a great game! Look you can group if you want to! Yes, WoW is a great solo game. If I wanted a solo game, I would certainly like WoW. But again, I"m looking for a group game. You're just saying, why don't you play my solo game? It's much better! I still want a groupoing game, not a solo game like WoW. Your "solution" is simply a solo game. Great solution..... for solo players.
You know sometimes you make sense Ihmotepp and sometimes you make good points.
This is not one of those times.
I'll explain your own analogy for you so you can understand it. You're welcome.
A good MMORPG is full of different courts.
You have the league courts where you have to have a registered team for serious competitive play. Usually these leagues have different fees and regulations you must abide by to participate in the league. This is the PvE raiding game in a MMORPG.
You also have more open courts where groups of friends can get together and play. No fees or regulations really. These are the small group content like dungeons.
You also have really open courts where anyone can come by and shoot. Sometimes you play with others, sometimes you just shoot hoops alone, sometimes you even form a quick pick up group and play a quick game. Kind of all depends on whose on the court. These are your solo quests and PUG groups.
They can all exist seperately yet be part of the same system. It's all just basketball.
Even better, you can do a bit of everything if you want to. Go shoot hoops alone at the open courts to practice, meet up with some friends and play a quick game or join a pick up game with whoever is on the court. You can also pay the fees and join an official league as a team.
But you should only expect the best rewards and prize money and trophies from the offical league play. If that's not for you then you can just enjoy the smaller less serious setting but should accept that you won't get all the glory and rewards as if you played with a league.
Most soloers are just terrible players. They prefer to solo so that they cant be yelled at by more advanced players. A good frined of mine was the same way, he didnt want to take the time to learn the intrinsics of his character and was thusly ridiculed by those who teamed up with him. His feelings were hurt so he cried alone in his solo game. This is the same for many of the solo/casual crowd, of course no one would ever admit that but its far too true.
But you're simply pulling that out of your ass. Since there are no games out there that are group dependent, are you saying there are no games out there with good communities at all? I would beg to differ. The community has nothing whatsoever to do with forced grouping. In fact, people who enjoy grouping are no better community members, necessarily, than people who enjoy solo or some mix of the two. You get asshats who solo, asshats who group, asshats in the middle. How they play doesn't seem to make a difference. And maybe you're using "community" differently than I do, maybe you ought to describe it.
Final Fantasy Eleven Online. That I have played for six years now, and quit only few days ago because I ran out of stuff to do.. I'd still be playing if it wasn't for that (and I can't play for 6 months anyway, so it's a forced break no matter what).
In FFXI it was really hard to be an asshat, since you had to group with people. If you weren't nice, you got kicked and no one wanted to play with you (reputation is actually important in that game). It was a nice filter for stupidity (not foolproof, but eh).
If you enjoy grouping you Have to be a better community member, or nobody will play with you.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Most soloers are just terrible players. They prefer to solo so that they cant be yelled at by more advanced players. A good frined of mine was the same way, he didnt want to take the time to learn the intrinsics of his character and was thusly ridiculed by those who teamed up with him. His feelings were hurt so he cried alone in his solo game. This is the same for many of the solo/casual crowd, of course no one would ever admit that but its far too true.
And conversely, we could turn that around and say that most groupers (to use a word) are horrible players because they rely upon others to make up for their shortcomings.
meh, it doesn't sound right either way. So I will assume that neither is true.
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Because that's not coexisting, that's separating. That's like saying "why couldn't blacks and whites coexist peacefully, just use different bathrooms and drinking fountains?" The reality is, forced grouping isn't financially viable, period. There will never be a major game which caters to people who want everyone to group all the time. It just won't happen, no matter how much you might dream it would. Therefore, you're going to have to deal with the reality that soloers are here to stay, represent the overwhelming majority of the gaming population and are going to get catered to because they have all the money. You're the one making it a battle. Stop fighting reality.
It already happened. And it was financially viable.
And I'm not fighting for some kind of equality issue here. I want there to be black and white people, as well as yellow and all the different variations. Now what you want (in your example) is to only have people that are the mix of all colors, not pale white or ebony blacks at all.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
It's not about wanting to solo, it's about wanting to have the power to solo. Games of forced grouping have a way of making your character feel the same as everything else. MMOS have yet to tackle how they can make individuals feel powerful in a sea of others just like them.
There is only one COURT, because I'm talking about the RULES OF THE GAME. The rules of the game are the same for everyone on the server. If you change the rules on the server for the solo player, you change the rules on the servr for the group player too, and screw up their group game. AS far as I know, there is no game that has different rules for different players on the same server. So to keep the analogy, shooting solo hoops would definitely scew up a team basketball game. To shoot hoops and not do that, you'd need to be on another court, which means ANOTHER SERVER. Otherwise, you change the rules for everyone, and the group based game has to now play by the solo rules. You've basically said, HEY, I want to change the rules for your fun group based game and turn it into a solo game, and you should be happy with that, because I like solo games! Uh, no, I still want a grouping game. Your'e saying WoW is a great game! Look you can group if you want to! Yes, WoW is a great solo game. If I wanted a solo game, I would certainly like WoW. But again, I"m looking for a group game. You're just saying, why don't you play my solo game? It's much better! I still want a groupoing game, not a solo game like WoW. Your "solution" is simply a solo game. Great solution..... for solo players.
You know sometimes you make sense Ihmotepp and sometimes you make good points.
This is not one of those times.
I'll explain your own analogy for you so you can understand it. You're welcome.
A good MMORPG is full of different courts.
You have the league courts where you have to have a registered team for serious competitive play. Usually these leagues have different fees and regulations you must abide by to participate in the league. This is the PvE raiding game in a MMORPG.
You also have more open courts where groups of friends can get together and play. No fees or regulations really. These are the small group content like dungeons.
You also have really open courts where anyone can come by and shoot. Sometimes you play with others, sometimes you just shoot hoops alone, sometimes you even form a quick pick up group and play a quick game. Kind of all depends on whose on the court. These are your solo quests and PUG groups.
They can all exist seperately yet be part of the same system. It's all just basketball.
Even better, you can do a bit of everything if you want to. Go shoot hoops alone at the open courts to practice, meet up with some friends and play a quick game or join a pick up game with whoever is on the court. You can also pay the fees and join an official league as a team.
But you should only expect the best rewards and prize money and trophies from the offical league play. If that's not for you then you can just enjoy the smaller less serious setting but should accept that you won't get all the glory and rewards as if you played with a league.
Those are not different "courts". The rules that apply to you in a game, apply to me. We're all on the same "court" if we're on the same server.
If you can go do solo content in the game, so can I. That's what ruins the grouping game. The rules are changed so you can solo. You can't change the rules for you, and not change them for me as well.
Comments
Anyone doesn't have to play the same game as me- they can play a game which caters to their interests, which in this case is solo content.
There are no MMO's purely for soloers, yet there are no MMO's purely for groupers either- this should change.
Those who want to solo can go do that for all I care, in a game designed for them.
Soloers can only benefit from groupers- soloers can only harm groupers. You don't have as good community as you would have in a group based game. Soloers rather solo than group up, which leads to less players lfg in general..
There are group players who also play solo when they cannot find a group or due to real time commitments (limited time or frequent real life interruptions) cannot commit to a group. Many of these players will not play a game that has no solo content, so by excluding solo play you are also excluding people who are available for grouping some of time, and thereby reducing the pool of people that group.
People are not just solo or group players, there is also a big pool that like both.
The answer is not to punish solo players to encourage them to group, and thereby making their experience less fun, the answer is to make grouping fun so that people want to group.
But those problems don't exist in FFXI, you know why? Because it abandons the 'solo' factor. In the end your example shows that the both can't coexist together without problems- that's why I propose to split them up.
I do not know how good this community you were a part of was, I do believe it was better than what it is now in WoW and the like though. If it is enough for me, I don't know. Without grouping I would never have met at least 85% of the players in my friend list, that's for sure.
But if a solo friendly community can flourish, that is a good thing. I just don't see it working together without sacrificing things from one or the other. Interesting is though, that I haven't heard any complaints from solo players saying that grouping 'killed' their communities. I'm glad I've finally heard one! Widens the perspective I had for sure.
Oh you're talking about the solo game I proposed, there. Sure, it would be a huge success, as well as the 'dark side' of it, an MMO that is group dependant (in a casual way, of course).
In WoW most players solo, because that is the easiest way to go. I did it too, I soloed/duoed all the way to 40 (when I quit), still missing that party aspect all the time.. it was just so simple to go and solo levels. But it doesn't mean I prefer solo, no. Making groups was a headache compared to the simpliness of just going out and questing. From personal experience I disagree that the path of least resistance is crap.
The fact that soloers invest just as much time and effort as groupers is part of the problem. Why group, when solo is just as easy/hard? Without a carrot on a stick players will just do the easy thing. But what I don't agree with is Forcing soloers to group up, especially in endgame. If you play a solo MMO, you should be able to do everything it has to offer, solo. If you play group MMO, the opposite. This mix of the 2 styles is just messing simple things up, IMO.
If I could choose to have a good community, I would go for that game.. but it's not something I get to decide. If the game is not group dependant, the community is not as good as it could be. That's why I think it should change. There is that something that isn't right about the communities of today's MMO's, and I want to make it right.
I don't want to take away that choice, I want to split them up so that everyone will have a better experience. It's not just about me, do you realize? I want solo friendly game, group friendly game, a mix of the 2, as well as pure PvE, pure PvP, and a mix of the 2 For Everyone to be able to play just as they want, without having to deal with something they don't care about. I don't think it's too much asked, really.
But yeah, I wonder if those fantastic people that solo and care about the community are in the majority or the minority...
I don't know if you can grasp what I mean by 'community' if you haven't experienced it yourself- it goes far beyond what other MMO's tend to offer.
Why does there have to be a battle? Why not coexist peacefully together, in different games? That is all I am proposing, in the end.
Casual group dependant MMO. As far as I know, nobody has ever tried it before.
And if a hardcore group dependant MMO can gather more than half a million players, I have a reason to believe that a casual one could make that number 10x as large.
There is a game for both, and always will be. Those aren't going anywhere. What I am proposing is a game tailored exclusively for those without such problems that prefer group play without making it hardcore.
Again, I am not punishing anyone here.. I am saying that more choices can only be a good thing. What I don't want is that every MMO out there becomes what I want. No, I want that one single MMORPG focuses solely on group play, other than that all the million MMO's out there can be as solo friendly as possible, without me caring a single bit.
There's lots of other options to go about it... hardcore solo game? casual PvE? hardcore PvP? Sandbox? Themepark? Mix of all these? Pick your favorite, & enjoy.
Instead of "WoW 2 coming!!!1 PvE, PvP, Solo, Group, Sandbox, Themepark, Casual, Hardcore, Classes, No Classes, Levels, No Levels, all in one single package!!!!1" what we seem to favor today.
EDIT: Oops, penta-post... I must be lagging today
The root problem of balancing solo vs. group XP is that players vary in skill and thus vary in how much solo XP they can earn. Let's say players soloing earn the following XP/hour:
Newbies...10
Average...13
Experts...16
(Note this assumes that better play is rewarded with better rewards. In EVE this isn't the case, and as a result EVE avoids the problem - but personally I find the complete lack of correlation between playerskill and advancement to not be very fun in EVE.)
If a group of average players earns 13 XP, things are perfectly balanced for average players. Whether soloing or grouping they earn about 13 xp/hr with a little variance while grouping. Unfortunately Experts earn less XP in the average group (13) than they would soloing (16). Since they're not well incentivized to group, they won't join groups as often and the grouping quality for all players in the game suffers as a result.
The problem is that if an average group of players earns 16 xp/hr, it's always better to group (unless you're an expert totally surrounded by newbies.) An expert will break even, and less skilled players will just outright earn more XP. Groups of all-experts or all-newbies earn more than soloing as well.
I feel the ideal balance is probably somewhere between the two (between 13 and 16 in my example). But there's no perfect solution, at least not in existing group/solo XP models where you have some combination of Elite (group-specific) mobs and/or a Grouping XP Bonus. And the one solution which does perfectly solve the situation (EVE) has such significant downsides that I wouldn't call it 'perfect'.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Respectfully, I prefer to solo...but in an MMOG (Massively Multiplayer Online Game), I recognize that it would be very foolish of me to demand that solo play have anything that "caters" to me.
There are many games that cater to solo players, but not one of them is a Massively Multiplayer Online game - those are designed purposely and specifically to cater to those who enjoy grouping. It is right in the name of the genre. Those of us who like to solo either accept that, in a Massively Multiplayer Online game, the rules of the game encourage and reward grouping (and we adjust accordingly and ask for help from our guilds or join a PUG when necessary)...or we go find a game that is designed to accomodate our needs, wants, and desires as solo players.
No, "Grouping" and "Raiding" is **not** "right there in the name". All MMOG means is there are a lot of other players in the game with you. It doesn't mean "you have to group up and raid in order to achieve top quality or end-game rewards".
It's not a problem with me that MMOGs requires grouping and raiding end-game rewards; my problem is that virtually ALL MMOGs are fundamentally structured the exact same way. (1) character advancement is directly predicated on how much time one has to play, and (2) grouping and raiding always deliver the best content and rewards. However, there is no limitation in coding, or in the technology, that requires either of those things ... but MMOG developers keep producing essentially the same game over and over.
When you structure a game along those two fundamental paradigms, you generate a certain kind of game, and attract certain players, every time. It doesn't matter if you can multiclass, or if it's a sci fi or a fantasy game, or if it has really pretty graphics, or if it is free to play or a subscription; it doesn't matter how good your crafting systems is or how great the voice acting or music is; it doesn't matter what your death penalty is .... because you've created the same game, with the same fundamental dynamic that funnels in hardcore raiders, provides them with a sense of accomplishment and superiority, and leaves the rest having to find some other way of enjoying the game besides what is obviously the end-game top rewards. That makes them 2nd class citizens in the game, paying the same amount but only getting to serve as the "scrubs" that the hardcore power-raiders get to show their shiny stuff off to and kill in PvP.
Also, it makes the developers **have to** scramble to provide new content for the hardcore powergamers, because they consume all the content the fastest ... while the casuals can play the original content for a year or more and **never** get to the end. This means that casual players will be funding new content they will never see to keep the least profitable players happy.
Nothing wrong with that .. other than ALL MMOGs are designed that way (except maybe EVE). In the above system, since there is such a disparity cause by how much time players have to be online playing, all sorts of exploits are possible, such as botting.
I often wonder if the reason that developers refuse to get away from that mold is because that model offers so much room for exploiting, abuse, and profiteering. If a game had a 24/7 advancement system for all players (including gathering gold), players wouldn't find the need to buy gold, or bot their character, just to keep up with guilds or fanatical players that play their chracters 24/7. If soloers had access to the same end-game rewards, then "forced grouping" wouldn't be necessary, and more casual, or nicer groups could then form.
With all the chat channels and guild/family/RP opportunities possible in such games, "socializing" doesn't have to mean spending hours looking for groups or raids, then being checked out to see if your specs or ability meets their needs, then entering an area and shouting "camp check" , then being entirely focused on fulfilling your class role in the group as min-maxers push the group/raid to maximum efficiency. Really? That's socializing to you?
The only time I have ever been able to socialize is through the chat channels to other players who are casually soloing or doing other things; when you have a limited amount of time to do anything with your character, you like to do things to advance them, not spend too much time "socializing"; with a 24/7 advancement system, all players are freed up to socialize more - real socialization, real talking, without the pressure or sense that you're "wasting precious time", or holding up a group or a raid. Who knows? It might even bring real RP back into a game where people don't have to make a choice between efficient advancement and RPing their character.
Massively Multiplayer socializing doens't necessarily mean "grouping" or "raiding"; it only means that now because the fundamental structure of MMOGs - almost every one of them - requires grouping, raiding, min-maxing and efficient use of one's time to advance their characters. Change the fundamental philosophy of the game, and you'll find an entirely different kind of socializing that isn't min-max efficiency "what are your specs?" based. In a different system, what your specs are are not nearly as important as what your character is, or if you have a good sense of humor, or can RP well.
You are BIGTIME confusing loot drops with solo/group play.I agree with you dude ,the loot should not be raiding only for the elite loot.I also agree most if not all games do it that way,but that can be EASILY changed without changing group play into solo play.
All a developer needs to do is make loot fair across the board,but i will let you in on a hint as to why all games do it this way.
"ELITE" gear NEEDs to be rare,if it was all accessible by every solo player i nthe game,it would no longer be elite gear ,because everyone in the game woudl have it.The whole purpose of elite gear is to get players to try over and over for long periods of time to access it,they do not want everyone to have it ,nor should they.
Now we are back to the solo/group part again.If the mobs that drop the elite drops are catered to a solo player,how on earth would a group find ANY enjoyment or satisfaction or challenge in the game play?The answer is they would not,it would be like handing everything over on a kiddie platter.
I hope you can at least understand the NEED for rarity in elite drops,without rare it is not rare,pretty easy concept to understand really.
I hear Wizard 101 and Freerealms both have exactly what you are asking for.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Imagine if you will, that there is a basketball game, and you want to play solo on the same court. That is going to seriously screw up my team based basket ball game.
However, I can go to the tennis court right next door and play singles against an opponent or swim laps in the swimming pool. Or when basketball is not playing I might play a different non-team game on the same court. It is all in the same sporting complex, and does not affect your basketball game. There is no reason something similar cannot be done in an MMO for solo, group and raids.
The basketball game analogy doesn't work. If you DESIGN the game to be a group-oriented game, then it works; if you DESIGN the game to simultaneously provide for both group and individual activities, then it fails. MMOGs are not ineherently analogous to your basketball game; they can be anything the developer wants it to be.
You seem to think that the only reason anyone will group up to do anything is if the **have to** in order to attain some in-game goal; others like you also imply that "everyone" will solo because it is "easier" than forming a group or raid, and that this will ruin the community aspect of the game.
I have news for you: it is not true that the only reason people group up is because they **have to**, nor is the only potential community aspect of an MMOG necessarily structured by forced grouping and raiding. There are more conversations to be had than talent trees, min-max gear, and group/raid strategy. The chat channels are not limited to groups or raids. Players cooperating to achieve a goal doesn't have to be structured around formal groups or formal raids.
What if there was a reward dynamic so that anyone who contributed to a fight got reward in accordance with their contribution, and their chances of receiving some special or great loot was determined by their contribution? If Joe heals or damages or controls X mobs or draws aggro or takes X damage, then they have an independent chance of getting the reward, which doesn't impinge on anyone else's chances. That way, anyone who wants to chip in on a fight can answer the call and they don't even need to join the "raid" or the "group". The dynamics of such open raids or mobs can certainly be worked out and coded?
If one does away with the "forced" aspect of grouping or raiding, a whole different relationship dynamic is generated; it just requires some creative development from a completely different mindset, where perfect control and finely-tuned balances aren't necessary in such situations.
I"m not so sure.
Last night I found a perfect example i Vanguard. Now granted, Vanguard was originally a grouping game but it seems that it is a bit more solo friendly at the moment.
I just hit 26 and also found out hat I can't get xp from a mob if it is more than 5 levels below you. So I spent a while going from area to area that indicated a level range that was comfortable for my level. However, what I found was that many of these mobs were paired and not only that, "slightly more difficult than their lvl". So though I could probably take out one in time, taking out two was a bit daunting. Read: I ran when i could.
I finally found a small out of the way area that had a few disgruntled crystal nymphs (or some such thing) and though they are a bit hard because I don't do a huge amount of damage, I can solo them! As a point of note I discovered that while I was fighting them my sense of perception kept going up until i could notice all their little invisible helpers. A Very cool thing about Vanguard. But I digress.
I truly believe that there should NOT be content that is of one lvl for one type of player and then you proceed to move across the map leaving behind the old areas.
I DO believe that all areas should have a mix of content or some should lean toward a few types of content. Then other areas would have more of the other, etc. So there would be for example, high lvl dungeons then some low lvl fields. Or, part of those dungeons one could solo. But farther in you need a group. etc.
In this way, not only do you get a diversity of players but you will also have solo players for the first bit, groupers who will move through to the harder stuff and a possibility that they will send an invite to the solo players to join them.
so no, you wouldn't have "one mob fits all" but you would incorporate a variety of things for anyone to do.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You're confusing grouping with interaction. Forcing people to join a fixed group in order to experience content is one way to get them to interact, giving them incentive to work together is another. The former is FFXI and the latter is EVE.
"How can you work on developing a community when nobody will group or talk to you?"
Be someone that people want to talk to? Do things to encourage people to interact with you?
Your expectation that game mechanics should be designed to force people to talk to you is unrealistic. Just like in real life, you get out of community what you put into it.
When the current mindset of the majority of the community is one that you will do better by yourself, it doesn't matter what I, personally, say or do, players are less likely to want to group up with me. Unless I lie and say I'm a horney teenage queen, or that I'm going to give them 100g to group with me, what am I supposed to do if the game mechanics make it so that grouping or interaction is only an option; and not even the best option? Your expectation that people who like to group are even able to under the curren t conditions is unrealistic. Just like in real life, if the community isn't very friendly, you aren't going to make many friends.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I suggest everyone read an excellent report on social dynamics in MMOs:
http://www.parc.com/content/attachments/alone_together_exploring_5599_parc.pdf
Even though this is about WOW it does a pretty good job explaining solo play in an MMO
Second - PLEASE STOP EQUATING "MULTIPLYER" WITH GROUPING!!
MMO does not mean you have to play WITH someone just alongside them is all.
MMO's in general are about developing your character. The path(s) to do so are the key part of any game. The majority of players are online to do just that and only that. Interracting with others is a by product that some enjoy more than others. the more players a game attracts the more likely to have people who are less "socially acceptable". Group play needs to be optional so as to not force people to group with others they would never group with. the group experience needs to be fun too. It needs to reward your characters (the goal of an MMO) and be fun on a social level as well. If the rewards from group play are different but not BETTER than those from solo or pvp then you will get people grouping to add a social aspect to their character advancement.
I believe that 2 things need to happen to balance group/solo/pvp in MMOs
1 - The rewards need to be the same ability but not the same look. Ideally you should easily identfy the players that have grouped/solo'd/PVP'd to get their uber lootz. This keep rare loot rare but maintains balance too. Originally WOW devs stated that a solo weapon would be just as strong as a raid weapon but it would not look nearly as cool.
2 - You need to simplify grouping by eliminating the holy trinity and add proper tools to allow players to group quickly.
I do agree though that as long as solo play is an option gouping will take a back seat. I don't believe this is due to "path of least resistance" but more to the fact that players don't want to group all the time.
A group only game is a wonderful idea but I don't think it would be financially viable.
It is... half a million players in FFXI, and that game is hardcore.
Now imagine if Square-Enix made a casual group only game... smells like success to me.
You see, you had it at the first part of that sentence and lost it at the last part.
People really need to start realzing that players who solo don't necessarily want to always solo. Players solo for the challenge, for immersion and to play according to when they can play.
Yelling for groups, getting in groups with horrible people, putting up with bad players... these are the things that drive many people to solo.
When I get into game I want to be doing something within 5 minutes. I am not paying 15 per month to yell for groups. I am not paying 15 per month to get half way through a quest only to have someone afk.
I am not paying 15 per month to have everyone in the group but someone feels that they have time to craft, sell stuff, buy stuff and then 20 minutes later joins you.
And this happens all the time. It is not the poster child for wanting to group. Mabve it's how I was brought up, but if I'm in a group then my time is their time and I don't waste other's time. It's a team effort. Not a me effort with other people around.
The best game play experiences I've had were in groups. Sieging, pvp parties, tomb of elendil in LOTRO where it took us 4 hours because a dedicated group of us were determined to make it through even though the rest dropped off or just joined to give advice and not do anything, etc.
I also don't want to group to hear people work through their fascination with toilet humor, discovering "boobies" or wanting to hot chat and show everyone that they are a sexual person.
I - just - don't - care.
So this is why people are driven to soloing. Get a group of people who can be ready in 5 minutes and who are dedicated to the task at hand and I'm there. Always.
Dealing with the rest? I think not. And will always choose to solo until such time as I get the good people. Taht doesn't even mean being the best. I dont' care if we fail. I do care that I have a good time doing it though.
This. For any pro-grouper who does not understand why people like to solo in MMOs, read this.
Groupers talk about socialization: I do not, in fact, I never play an MMO with the intent of meeting new people. I want to group with people who know how their role and know how to play. If I add someone to my friends list, it's not because I find them to be particularly social, it's because I appreciate that they know what they are doing. I'm sorry, but I don't give a rats ass about your personal life or where you are from etc. That's not why I'm in the game. If I want that kind of social interaction, I'll go out and actually meet people.
But you're simply pulling that out of your ass. Since there are no games out there that are group dependent, are you saying there are no games out there with good communities at all? I would beg to differ. The community has nothing whatsoever to do with forced grouping. In fact, people who enjoy grouping are no better community members, necessarily, than people who enjoy solo or some mix of the two. You get asshats who solo, asshats who group, asshats in the middle. How they play doesn't seem to make a difference.
And maybe you're using "community" differently than I do, maybe you ought to describe it.
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Why does there have to be a battle? Why not coexist peacefully together, in different games? That is all I am proposing, in the end.
Because that's not coexisting, that's separating. That's like saying "why couldn't blacks and whites coexist peacefully, just use different bathrooms and drinking fountains?" The reality is, forced grouping isn't financially viable, period. There will never be a major game which caters to people who want everyone to group all the time. It just won't happen, no matter how much you might dream it would. Therefore, you're going to have to deal with the reality that soloers are here to stay, represent the overwhelming majority of the gaming population and are going to get catered to because they have all the money.
You're the one making it a battle. Stop fighting reality.
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You know sometimes you make sense Ihmotepp and sometimes you make good points.
This is not one of those times.
I'll explain your own analogy for you so you can understand it. You're welcome.
A good MMORPG is full of different courts.
You have the league courts where you have to have a registered team for serious competitive play. Usually these leagues have different fees and regulations you must abide by to participate in the league. This is the PvE raiding game in a MMORPG.
You also have more open courts where groups of friends can get together and play. No fees or regulations really. These are the small group content like dungeons.
You also have really open courts where anyone can come by and shoot. Sometimes you play with others, sometimes you just shoot hoops alone, sometimes you even form a quick pick up group and play a quick game. Kind of all depends on whose on the court. These are your solo quests and PUG groups.
They can all exist seperately yet be part of the same system. It's all just basketball.
Even better, you can do a bit of everything if you want to. Go shoot hoops alone at the open courts to practice, meet up with some friends and play a quick game or join a pick up game with whoever is on the court. You can also pay the fees and join an official league as a team.
But you should only expect the best rewards and prize money and trophies from the offical league play. If that's not for you then you can just enjoy the smaller less serious setting but should accept that you won't get all the glory and rewards as if you played with a league.
Most soloers are just terrible players. They prefer to solo so that they cant be yelled at by more advanced players. A good frined of mine was the same way, he didnt want to take the time to learn the intrinsics of his character and was thusly ridiculed by those who teamed up with him. His feelings were hurt so he cried alone in his solo game. This is the same for many of the solo/casual crowd, of course no one would ever admit that but its far too true.
Final Fantasy Eleven Online. That I have played for six years now, and quit only few days ago because I ran out of stuff to do.. I'd still be playing if it wasn't for that (and I can't play for 6 months anyway, so it's a forced break no matter what).
In FFXI it was really hard to be an asshat, since you had to group with people. If you weren't nice, you got kicked and no one wanted to play with you (reputation is actually important in that game). It was a nice filter for stupidity (not foolproof, but eh).
If you enjoy grouping you Have to be a better community member, or nobody will play with you.
And conversely, we could turn that around and say that most groupers (to use a word) are horrible players because they rely upon others to make up for their shortcomings.
meh, it doesn't sound right either way. So I will assume that neither is true.
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It already happened. And it was financially viable.
And I'm not fighting for some kind of equality issue here. I want there to be black and white people, as well as yellow and all the different variations. Now what you want (in your example) is to only have people that are the mix of all colors, not pale white or ebony blacks at all.
It's not about wanting to solo, it's about wanting to have the power to solo. Games of forced grouping have a way of making your character feel the same as everything else. MMOS have yet to tackle how they can make individuals feel powerful in a sea of others just like them.
You know sometimes you make sense Ihmotepp and sometimes you make good points.
This is not one of those times.
I'll explain your own analogy for you so you can understand it. You're welcome.
A good MMORPG is full of different courts.
You have the league courts where you have to have a registered team for serious competitive play. Usually these leagues have different fees and regulations you must abide by to participate in the league. This is the PvE raiding game in a MMORPG.
You also have more open courts where groups of friends can get together and play. No fees or regulations really. These are the small group content like dungeons.
You also have really open courts where anyone can come by and shoot. Sometimes you play with others, sometimes you just shoot hoops alone, sometimes you even form a quick pick up group and play a quick game. Kind of all depends on whose on the court. These are your solo quests and PUG groups.
They can all exist seperately yet be part of the same system. It's all just basketball.
Even better, you can do a bit of everything if you want to. Go shoot hoops alone at the open courts to practice, meet up with some friends and play a quick game or join a pick up game with whoever is on the court. You can also pay the fees and join an official league as a team.
But you should only expect the best rewards and prize money and trophies from the offical league play. If that's not for you then you can just enjoy the smaller less serious setting but should accept that you won't get all the glory and rewards as if you played with a league.
Those are not different "courts". The rules that apply to you in a game, apply to me. We're all on the same "court" if we're on the same server.
If you can go do solo content in the game, so can I. That's what ruins the grouping game. The rules are changed so you can solo. You can't change the rules for you, and not change them for me as well.