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wow offers no challenge?
Swiftblade13
Member Posts: 638
So often folks here on MMORPG.com make this statement....
I'm here to tell you it is rediculous. Sure, I'm upset that the low level content has been made so easy..... Yes, for the most part the raids are easier than they once were....
But there is PLENTY of challenge at level 80 for those who want it. Go ahead, say its easy.... you havent tried to do OS with three drakes up (without being over-geared). Got that done? Lets not even talk about trying to do a full clear of Ulduar25!
On my server not ONE guild has managed to clear Ulduar 10 yet... much less 25... and its not a new server.
Oh and one more thing... in WoW if you cant complete a raid you cant just get more people to come next time..... its 10 or 25 man... period.
I loved my EQ1 days..... loved the time I spent in SWG pre-cu too...... I'm sure I've posted in the past on these forums ideas for meshing the elements of those games I loved with a modern MMO.. but now I realize its not really a practical idea.... I've come to accept that WoW is gonna be my home for a good long while yet. During those periods of time when WoW isnt holding my interest no other MMO will either... I just wait till my interest in WoW is renewed instead of trying the next big failure.
I was once a 5 star poster on these forums.. now I have 1 star..... thats because I'm busy in game.... what a wonderful thing!
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Comments
Ok, I have a 80 Hunter (pre BC) and a 80 Rogue BC
I've played for ages! For some people the fact that they can do OS 3 drakes etc its just that very thought, "I can do that.. can you?"
But in all honesty you hear people say, "The game doesn't start till 80." Which in some cases is true, level level level grind grind grind quest quest quest and there you are perched at 80. Then some fun begins start raiding, start doing heroics etc. But do that for a full year and the game really dies for me.
I loved almost every second I spent with WoW. But a lot of patches made it MUCH easier which killed a lot of the fan base. (More 12+ friendly)
Of course I still post on World of Athene forums, and check out the new content but i'll never go back. Unless of course you want to spend ages working on achievements which IMO was no fun at all :-(
In my personal opinion, PvE content is never "HARD", It is either you need better gear, or need to learn how the boss fight goes. Being a hard fight would probably be where the Boss actually does random scripted events rather than just the normal 50% health Enrage or etc, while the gear having no effect on the boss fight whatsoever.
I believe in MMOs, Hard should not equal, Who spent the most time on getting gear or who got the most lucky.
Heres an analogy I have seen somewhere,
'PvE is like playing chess with an opponent that uses the same moves every game while PvP is like playing chess"
Its a bit biased on the PvP part, but I'm trying to make a point that PvE content's difficulty level goes far as spending your time getting yourself geared.
Hence, the reason people in WoW demand you to be geared for going on a "Hard" raid encounter.
While I'm sure that figuring the boss's behavior pattern on the first fight ever may be a challenge, but you have to be honest that after the first guild that downs it, all the other guild probably follows.
Awww, but Starcraft would actually make so much sense ... it is actually a great IP for an MMO, as long as they don't go left and right murdering the main protagonists. It's also sci-fi, which is a different setting entirely. They can also set the game up with small groups in mind (no raids this time) and have sort of like X-com style missions.
Hmm, about the OP, nothing matters beyond having fun with what you game.
The encounters in the game are not so much hard as unique and different. And instead of just one person tanking, people dpsing, and others healing, you actually had to do things. Different things for different bosses. You had to be awake.
It was a fun change. But, it just kind of got old the longer it went on. If you weren't raiding, you were in the SAME FREAKING BGs from when they first came out, or standing around.
Making a LOL ESPORT out of the game really took away the fun of PvE to me. And considering the HUGE imbalance in pvp in small groups with certain classes, and how often they make certain classes the strongest (to get rerolls/keep people playing) it just kinda pushes people away.
Granted it will stay on the top until a very polished, quick paced, non clunky combat game comes out.
There ARE fights you need Gear+++++. That is not challenge, that is just grind. But time sinks is what keep so many playing.
That's what I 've been saying the last year. Everyone can do as he pleases of course.
AoC and War were the last mmorg's I tried. They were the last in a LONG row and this time these money grabbers just won't make it to my pockets anymore.
The only other mmorpg I would like to look into is Star Trek, just because of the Lore as I don't expect ... anything from its makers after having played CoH's and Kotor. All the rest is making something with "quests" and "levels", but this could hardly be called a game you would want to play, let alone pay a monthly fee for.
I can choose my playing styles within WOW with the moods I am in. I rejected already 4 weeks of Raiding as I am that passionate with getting my PvP titles with my 2 main characters. And while I have a planning till March next year, I can easely switch roles and become a healer in Ulduar whenever I want.
So I don't like the daily quests in the tournament these days. Instead of talking nonsense of boredom, just play another part of the game and advance your playing style with a complete other class or style of play.
I must say that leveling through PvP will give me a boost to start a 4 th class from scratch and delele all those sub level 30's.
I only have ONE hope that Blizzard's new MMO doesn't copy the (Xn,,,, Sn)= WOW strategy. it should be something completely different. And NO I don't like SC and won't even touch it.
Just so you know the people that's making Star Trek didnt make KotoR, you might want to do some research on dev companies and their products before you go trashing them. The makers of KotoR are top notch developers and i have been playing games made from this company for years as well as Blizzard.
The only reason i picked up WoW is because of the work blizz did in the past on their other titles, after 4 yrs of playing: WoW has gotten boring, easy, and stale, and its not the Devs fault it's the whinning crying community that has turned WoW into what it is. Hardcore QQing about casuals, casuals QQing about content being to hard, PvPers QQing about class imbalances. I could go on and on but why bother everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
I just hope that these type of people dont move over to SW: ToR and cause that game to become a shell of what it's shaping up to be
I think you are using the term "Casual" when you actually mean "unskilled". Before hard-modes gear checks in Ulduar are quite easy to pass (i.e. if you have done Naxx a few times your gear will likely be good enough). It's just a matter of knowing how to play your class and knowing the encounter.
I'm quite happy with the current situation. The following are all quite easy: Naxxramas, Obsidian Sanctum, Vault of Arachavon, Ulduar first boss (Flame Leviathan)
Whilst EoE and the remainder of Ulduar take a little more skill. So everyone gets stuff that challenges them. Skillful players get challenged by Ulduar (or even Ulduar hard modes) whilst unskillful players get challenged by Naxx. If Ulduar was reduced to Naxx difficulty levels, then skillful players would have nothing...
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I think most people mean that WOW offers no challenge while leveling, other than grinding your way through it.
Certainly the high level raids in WOW are not easy (no matter what others claim) and if you've ever really worked your way through a new dungeon before all the guides come out you know what I mean.
I liked leveling in WOW....to a point. After I created 5 level 60's (on both factions) I was pretty much done with that. (hence the new expansions/levels had little appeal)
And after mastering a few raid dungeons, (MC, BWL, and AQ40) I'd pretty much lost interest in conquering any more.
Arena PVP and BG instances hold no appeal, I prefer open world, castle fighting PVP (which i realize WOW has a lot more of now) so it was time for me to move on.
But I did enjoy my time in WOW back in the day, and do feel it offered some fine challenges back then.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wow offers the best end game content in the whole world. No other game has as much content as WoW does.
And its challenging as hell to. (Atleast was in TBC, now in Wotlk only hard things are the hardmodes).
Those who say WoW dosnt offer any challange either havnt played the game or they are just plain retarded.
I personally dont play WoW anymore cause it didnt offer me any challenge as a hardcore raider and beeing in a top 10 of the world guild. After we cleared Ulduar I just felt this game is not for me. But this game is for everyone that likes a challenge anyway, cause its definetley is. I havnt played any game that offers this kind of challenge, not even with Wotlk content.
That is because all the other games suck, cant find anything that gives me the kick.
I did not raid in pr-bc
I raided heavily in BC
After quitting a few times, I came back to raid for 3 months in WOTLK.
Within 1 month of raiding, I had a full t7.5 set, working on the same for two other lvl 80 toons, lvling some alts, with over 30k gold on the three lvl 80s I had...completing all content pre-udluar(including EOE 25man, sarth +3D 25man), on a weekly basis). I wont even mention how silly NAXX was.
Ulduar came out....no one in my guild logged into PTR at all, ever, within one week we had I believe 4 bosses down, and two-three of them on farm. I have since quit the game, they are almost farming ulduar 25, and have half the bosses down on hard mode.
The lvl from 1-60 is a joke, getting a mount at 30 or something, with the cost being a fraction of what it used to be(or going to be a fraction of what it used to be), changes to classes, having tokens be universal in the next patch, etc etc..they made this game so damn easy to play. Catering to the casuals which is ok, but for raiders like myself..it became nonsense. They had to invent another mode called hardmode...10 man wasnt hard enough, 25 man(considered heroic) wasnt hard enough, they need a hard mode. Next they'll have super duper hard mode, then elite mode. Once you get elite mode, you get a free t shirt.
With all of these changes to the game, it obviously isnt the same game it was 2-3 years ago, let alone 4+, it sounds like Blizzard is getting worried and desperate...making all these changes to try to cater to everyone. Yes, probably 10 mil still play the game, or at least 10 mil toons exist(how many people are logged in at peak time is another story). Is WoW losing anyone? Are other games slowly chipping away? Are the new changes turning people off? Are games like AION luring people away(AION might not be the WoWkiller, but it is definately the best MMO to come out since WoW). Its a COMPLETELY different game(not talking content such as story line, etc)...the game play is different.
Dont get me wrong, I loved WoW, I miss it. I probably would return if wifey wouldnt divorce me(yes she made that threat if I started playing again), and if certain changes were made to the game to just make the raids purely...hard.
blizzard trying to serve everyone whining, made the game look like a patch carpet. A little minigame here some BG there and a raid instance that fits all. Its simply getting old. Cant motivate myself to even log on beside the raids we have and that is basically to help out my guild mates. Just take for example the argent tournament. I tried to do that the first day but I felt I am playing a 3 button minigame for 10years olds, it was so boring it almost hurt. Thats where wow is going - the spirit from vanilla wow is gone, sadly.
raiding hasn't really changed that much besides making the dungeons more and more complex. The main change was dropping the number of people to do raids with from 40 to 25. People say raids were harder back in the day. Thats only partially true because with 40 ppl it was harder to get everyone to do their jobs correctly. Hence there were alot more people messing up then there are now. Boss fights today are alot harder and more scripted then they have ever been and would all be very very hard to down if we still had the old raiding system.
Also the game offers a decent challenge to players its just not as time consuming as most. Time should never be the basis for a challenge. Games are meant for enjoyement not something to waste most of your life with.
Those saying the game starts only at 80 are fools. I have 2 80, one of them I parked.
In my post above I was talking of my 2 presently played mains I play at the moment and one of them isn't even ... 79 and .... yes he's going for a BG title plan till Mar 2010. I am using him within a game plan and for titles. In fact I am getting him to 80 around Nov, just in time to have (free then) Deadly gear for the last 6/7 weeks of Arena.
It is ALL in the game plan you make. Today you don't even need to do the rat race every day to have HUGE fun with this game.
It is all about options. Problem is people aren't always seeing the many different playing styles. They think because they play it their way it is the only way to play it.
Besides playing a different class is playing a complete different style of play anyway. Even playing different specs within a class is refreshing. Try a healer pala or tank or retri, or shadow priest instead of healing.
And the above poster: If the game was "easy" on you, why don't you have any PvP titles? So much for easy. The competitive arena ladder shows the game was too hard to play for you. And since you weren't "interested" in playing hard mode Raids it showed the same for PVE.
Please, please post my armory link? I would love to see my Achievements etc. Shouldn't be hard to since you already know what I've achieved.
The problem with most MMO these days is it's just to easy to get to the end game. The challenge only comes in dungeons / raids. After the first time through the content it just becomes a chore to level any alts because you can do it sleeping.
I went back to EQ a few days ago and it was refreshing to have a challenge again while leveling. It's to bad the interface is poor at best in many areas of the game. It takes a lot of work to get the interface in a working order but once you get it set up I'm having a blast again. We need more games with a challenge that focus on getting from Point A to B and not just about what happens at point B.
Plenty of challenge, but not plenty of diversity.
The "plenty" you speak of applies to 5% of the player base, and that player base has to suffer through the same instance and same 12 bosses week after week because there's a complete lack of diversity when it comes to content for hardcore players.
Blizzard: "Oh so you've complete all of the encounters after dropping 200 hours per player in a 25 man raid . . . spend another 400 hours and complete the hard mode for marginal upgrades."
I'm sorry, but it's a sad and weak strategy. I'm a long time blizzard fan, and veteran hardcore raider in WoW but I can't do it anymore. It's a second job with very little reward. I really enjoy it when the content is new because you're discovering the unknown, and conquering things for the first time. When you have everything on farm status and you're only playing to gear up atls and friends . . . then why play.
WoW and any other MMO that wants to create a game the captures an audience for a decade or more need to start focusing on in game dynamic events. Consider your favorite TV show; would you watch the same show every week if it was a reply? Your answer is no and don't arguee. So then why the hell do we pay $15 a month for a show that only changes episodes annualy?
- Random boss encounters
- GM created world events
- Meaningful city sieges that impact the economy
** I could go on and on, but it's a mute point because we'll keep getting the same cookie cutter game **
I've been testing Aion and will play it when it releases. Not because the formula is any different then WoW, but because it's new content and a new experience to explore vs. the same 12 bosses week after weeks . . . .
[(T+G=W)=Gr*Nf]-S=FoF
T=Time G=Gear W=Win Gr=Grind Nf=NoFun S=Skill FoF=FullofFail
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
I've slowly coming to realize that no MMO out currently has the polish and content that WoW offers. WoW is easy? All MMOs are easy..they have to be so that a broad range of players can play, which = more money made.
I recently returned to afew previous MMOs i've played because I was getting a slight WoW burnt-out. None of them offer what WoW does, which is a huge well thought out emmersive world. Future expansions (Lich was amazing) will only get better which will further raise the bar for MMOs coming onto the market.
I'm starting to believe that the only company that will out-due WoW is Blizzard itself. They know the market well and what players are looking for. A new Blizzard MMO would likely go straight to the top, and all other MMOs will once again try to live up to its standards.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
Wow has slid to an incredibly easy level of difficulty. I'm just so tired of hearing the casual excuse because its a myth.
My guild spends around 10 hours a week inside of 25 man instances, and the average raider plays around 15 hours playing a week. We have a lot of people that during the work week only log in on raid nights, and log out shortly after the raid is finished. I admit that we haven't progressed far in hard modes, but we have cleared Ulduar heroic as a casual guild full of people who lead normal lives.
There is a big difference between 'bads' and 'casuals'... imo the bads are lazy about how they play the game. You can be a casual that contributes equally with a hardcore in a lot of environments if you show up in the proper gear, gemmed and enchanted the right way, a good spec for raiding, consumables, knowing your class, and with the encounters researched in advance.
The next big patch is full of handouts for people who are just not good at raiding becaus they either lack the awareness to function properly in a raid groups, or they make no attempts to improve their performance in scripted encounters.
I pug 25 man naxx on occasion, and I could make a list a mile long full of what I see as fail, but the truth is that these people don't care. They will eventually bring down the ship imo.
10 hours a week raiding and in a guild that only logs in to raid?
That is the very definition of a raiding guild and is by no means what most people would refer to as casual.
Just my opinion.
10 hours a week is very casual. There are guilds who spend 5-6 hours a night in a raid instance. Hell there are people who spend more then 10 hours a week in normal instances, are they not considered casual players because they don't raid?
I think the point was that in order to get to the point would mean you're not a casual gamer even if you are currently playing casually... as in you need to get all the gear and stuff.
Of course WoW has a challenge but it's not always the type of challenge that people want. Plus keep in mind, a challenge to one person might not be a challenge to another person. For example I found FFXI more challenging than WoW but then there are just as many people that found FFXI boring and easy and thought WoW had more of a chanllenge. I think the only way to really talk abou this topic is to be more specific.
Those two points you make up there, were your bread and butter for years and now you believe it was a weak and sad strategy? You're burned out and it's time to move on, period. No need to preach to others that what you NOW find weak and sad to be a lack of diversity. There are still 95% of players out there that would find those 12 boss fights a new and refreshing change from what they've been doing.
And giving 5% of your player base something new to tackle every now and then is neither sad or weak. If anything it shows that even the smallest base of players count to the developers if they are still trying to give them something that they still enjoy (excluding you of course).
So why don't you just say you're bored and tired of raiding and decided to try a new game with a fresh coat of paint? Is it because you have a nagging feeling that all of that work was for moot? Or is it because you can't convince a few of your friends to join you in your new endeavor in hopes of being semi successful?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Same. I have pre-ordered Aion. Not because I think it is amazing game or a "WoW-killer", but because it seems solid enough to provide me with some enjoyment for few months at the very least.
And about raiding...yes it was a LOT more challenging and fun in Classic, but it was also equally repetitive and not that many players had access to it.
Also about challenge, original 5-10 man instances like BRD, BRS, Scholomance and Stratholme etc. vs. linear 3-4 boss intances of today. There is nothing heroic about them even on Heroic mode. Just compare them purely from innovative level design point of view and you might see what some of us are missing.
I still fondly remember first time entering BRD in the US closed beta. Now that was an experience. None of that with new dungeon or even raid instances. You just run the linear path they have provided and kill those 2-4 bosses in like 30 mins and be done with them. It is extremely boring and repetitive level design since we have been spoon fed since TBC.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
WoW isn't really that challenging. The only real challenge is finding people to that are skilled...
And dual specs now? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of specializing? They might as well just make one spec that is the "Good at everything spec."
10 hours a week raiding and in a guild that only logs in to raid?
That is the very definition of a raiding guild and is by no means what most people would refer to as casual.
Just my opinion.
10 hours a week is very casual. There are guilds who spend 5-6 hours a night in a raid instance. Hell there are people who spend more then 10 hours a week in normal instances, are they not considered casual players because they don't raid?
You can raid Naxxramas casually. The reason is that Naxxramas is a intentionally easy ENTRY level raid encounter planned with the release of WoTLK that can be finished by even the least skilled raiders/puggers in 10-man mode in 1 night and 25 man in 2, it's been out long enough to warrant that.
Uldar is NOT in any way shape or form a casual raid encounter, videos are reviewed, strategies are researched and supplies are gathered. Now how you tackle the encounter with it's 7 day hard reset can be planned casually: 2 hours per night for 5 nights or hardcore: 4-5 hours Friday and Saturday. But in either case I doubt it will be completed.
It's HOW you describe how you use the time played that defines if it's casual or hardcore....
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Yes, Wow is too easy. A few harder end game RAIDs wont make things a lot better.
To get there you first have to sleep yourself through tons of easy junk so it is not worth the bother for anyone that is new to the game.
And even the hard stuff is nowhere near the hard stuff in other games, when you run the hard stuff in Guildwars (which isn't a really hard game btw), a single misstake by one person will wipe the group.
Some people like easy and that is fine but it wont work for me. I like a hard challenge or at least a moderate one if I am tired.