Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The PvP Discussion
Zerackus
Member UncommonPosts: 47
Let me start it up, since the announcement has been made that D&D online won't have PvP.
I hope everyone can feel the disappointment in this letter. It pains me to play a game with no PvP. An on-line version of D&D has been a fantasy of mine since games ported onto the computers. Years ago, on AOL, in a game called Never Winter Nights, the old SSI Gold Box massive on-line RPG, I created a guild. The game had message boards, which were used almost more than the game itself, to promote role playing.
The Undead Lords were born. An off shoot of the lore inspired at the time, based on the Times of Trouble. We are followers of Myrkul, and believe and role played that he was not dead in fact. He was banished to a Void, where the only way for us to bring him back, was to claim enough souls in his name to bring about his return. Our PvP lore was created. We have been around since 1992, and lived in many games, continueing our lore, advancing, but always the same goal in mind, PvP back by Lore and Role Playing.
The ability of really being a group of religious Undead, in the realms of D&D itself, is something that we can not pass up, until now. We thrive on PvP, and even though this is the system we were "born" in, we can not come here as a guild with no PvP. Worlds of Warcraft seems to be our new home. It pains me soooo much to have to pass on this game. I know personally I will paly, and so will many of our members, but there will never be a Sanctioned Undead Lords here.
I urge everyone to think of the many, many role playing possiblities, and voice your support for our and your, PvP rights.
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
Comments
That's the exact reason game companies don't want to allow pvp. No one wants to play on a server with a guild dedicated to killing players. It's one thing to kill a rival or a thief in your group that gets out of line or a fireball happy mage that killed the cleric. It's quite another to found a guild with the premise of killing random adventurers. Game design has to suffer because we have to deal with a bunch of griefing teens that don't understand the concept of "comrade" or "honor".
First off, you haven't a clue. We are role players number 1, and we are PvPers. PKers are something totally different. Your ignorance in these matters shows right through your post.
We are followers of Myrkul, 100%. We have been playing our plots, laying seige to our enemies, claiming the souls of the living for Myrkul for ages. Our lore is as in depth as any TSR novel. Do not even think to label us a bunch of l33t dudes, we eat guilds like that for breakfast.
My arguements and comments still stand. If you have never PvPed, don't post it doesn't deserve to be here, because that makes you a hipocrite.
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
I mostly play mmpg for the interact with other players and that includes pvp. To me a game with no pvp means constant lvling grinds and constant raids. I like pvp cause the pvm there is almost no challenge. Mobs do not have the ai to control like a real player does. If I didnt like pvp i would play games that dont require a monthly subscription. Just get on with games like Diablo2. The main concept of mmpg is 2 reasons I believe. To interact with other players and mostly to get groups together and do mass pvp. I was afraid when I heard the release of D&D online will not have pvp. I can see that a mmpg without pvp will fade out. 1) will not draw the pvpers (I think it is over 60% of the mmpg players). 2) The game can not hold the intrest of players with the constant pve. 3) Games like Daoc survived 3 years not because of the pve aspect, but the pvp involved in it. True daoc is pvp based game, but that is what survives in mmpg. I always found it more of a challenge to gear up, lvl and pve for my end game PVP. I can't see myself paying a monthly subcription to do nothing but pve.
Please dont flame to much. This is my thoughts
~Yeti
...systems owned; Pong, ColecoVision, Commodore Vic20, Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Intellivision I & II, Nintendo, SNES, Sega, Gamegear, 32x, Sega CD, Philips CDi, 3DO, Comp, Playstation, XBox (only a few I have not owned, yet probably played hehe)
...enjoying Fable & MKD currently.
...some live in a box, I live in a beta.
2nd sig... http://home.mchsi.com/~tattooedyeti/MxO_Yeti.gif
~Yeti
Probably for the best because Turbine didn't do a very good job with PvP in AC. Why try doing something you aren't good at...right?
Ok, first off.. Although your "history", as you claim, is as old as TSR itself, I think it's fairly easy to say that any group of people who want to just PK other players could have easily searched for "Evil" and "D&D" and come up with Myrkul, Bane or Cyric in all of 30 seconds of research and claimed to be followers therefore they kill people.
Your aggressive attitude toward those who are against PvP just shows you are one of those people who doesn't really care what others say, all you care is what you want. A classic PKer attitude in all of the MMORPG's I've played. Furthermore, all of your arguements that PnP D&D had PvP so D&D Online needs it was not even supported in your above post. You reference a group of online players running around PKing people in the name of Myrkul. Please tell me, if you and your "guild" got together to play PnP D&D, which one of your guildies would you kill first? Oh, wait, probably none of them. You'd kill the people invented by the DM. Guess what? That's the equivalent of PvE in the online world. So, that being said, your arguement still holds no water to fitting PvP in a role playing environment.
The only legitimate need for PvP in a role playing environment would be like someone said above. Protection from thieving players and protection from carelessness of your party. Outside of that, there's really no need to for PvP in a role playing game.
The other thing is, when developers make a role playing game, they spend so much time on content for people. That's ALOT of hard work that goes into it. Why would you want to introduce PvP so that people could power-grind through the levels to ignore all of your fine quality work just so they can go beat on each other? A MMORPG is just as much of a satisfaction for developers as it is for players.
First, the attack on me and thinking that we haven't been around for 12 years plus is just petty. If you had any clue about the on line gaming community, you would know that names like the Undead Lords, KAAOS, Knights of Eternal Flames, the Grey Company..have been around and active for 10 plus years..all of them.
PVP, for all those who consider themselves intelligent and have an open mind, and able to make informitive decisions, read some of the following from the "evil" PvPing guild KAAOS:
www.kaaos.com/Gaming/index.php?id=0
Great write up.
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
I've read your "great write up" and there's a flaw in the authors logic starting with the Third Circle and Fourth Circles. The write up assumes that all people feel the need to prove something. This is where the author fails to realize that society on a whole doesn't feel this way. The game player achieves the greatest riches, armor, weapons in a multitude of ways. Some gather it by following story lines, some gain it by crafting the items themselves and others run through the PvE content to try to reach that "end game" with all the best items.
The Fifth Circle does touch on a primary function, the interaction with people. However, another key concept that it overlooks is the actual INTENTION of these online games. They are called "MMORPG" for a reason. I'm not sure why the author seperated items 3, 4, 6 and 7. They all really fall under category 3, Role Play. Thats't the RP in MMORPG.
Socialization is really the true "end-game" for FAR more people than this article attributes.
Lastly, the Sixth Circle touches does make the following statement:
"PKers need to realize that beyond just slaying the helpless, fighting even battles is where it's at.."
I agree with this statement as well as the fact that the author chose to put this into the Sixth Circle which he defines as:
"You can only reach this circle if the conditions are right...."
Because, in reality, it is unachievable. Where ever you have a game with PKers, you will always, ALWAYS have those who do nothing but kill low level people just because they can. And THAT is why PvP will never work in D&D Online.
I think it's kind of naive and pompous of the author to think they can easily break down all of the play styles as well as each person's reasoning for playing that way for all of society who play online games in a one page document.
Tacklebury --}>>>
Tacklebury --}>>>
You mean except me right?
Just checking
I was also disappointed to hear that D&D Online wouldn't have pvp, I had been looking forward to playing it. Maybe they'll add it at some point and I'll give it a shot.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Badnarik."
http://www.lp.org
Still waiting for my next mmorpg...
A definition of 'munchkin', origin forgotten: "A player who, when told that the game will involve political intrigue in 15th-century Italy, insists on playing a Ninja." -isomeme
WARNING: Spelling and grammatical errors intentionally left in document to test for Anal Retentive Trolls.
"The key to wasting time is distraction. Without distractions it's too obvious to your brain that you're not doing anything with it, and you start to feel uncomfortable." - Paul Graham http://paulgraham.com/hs.html
All those years I played D&D p-n-p I don't seem to recall any PvP in any of the rule sets or tournaments. What happened to actual role playing and working as a group to complete an adventure and a quest??? While PvP can be fun if done correctly, I don't think it belongs in D&D. I applaud Turbine for trying their best to capture the spirit of the actual p-n-p game.
Edit: One way I think it would work and provide that aspect for people that do enjoy pvp is some sort of arena competition which could take place between individuals(aka dueling) and/or guilds. I thought about it some more and there are ways it could work, but then there are a lot of ways it could really ruin the overall feel and atmosphere of D&D.
You apparently didn't read the rules well.
The rules are 'open' and do not disallow or allow player versus player.
It's a fantasy land that any DM can create.
If your DM created a world where no human, elf, dwarf, or other PC class could ever physically harm anyone other PC class anywhere in the realm that sounds like a lot of fun.
As a DM I allow the PCs to make the decisions and live with their actions. If they kill others in civilized areas (and there are witnesses - normal or magical) then authorities will hunt them. If they kill others in wild areas nobody knows (unless they have friends or relatives).
I don't like being killed nor robbed by other characters. I enjoy playing with other people I trust and taking on challenges together.
If some random group of players attacks us in the 'wilds' I guarantee you they'd have one heck of a fight on your hands.
Actually, how would a group know the level of antoher group? If it was like PnP there would be no immediate inidication of power level.
Limiting the game just restricts the openess which takes away from the entire gaming experience.
Whether an AI group of adventurers attacks your party or a PC group, what does it matter? The end result is a better experience dealing with human controlled opponents than some easy to overcome AI.
I vote for openess. If it's not permadeath or open then my paper and pencil gaming group will not participate in the online lacking experience.
You make strong valid points glittermage. I have read the D&D rules quite well except for the newest revisions as well as playing the game since 1980. I am not opposed to PvP, but the DMs and people Ive rpd with just never PvPd in the p-n-p D&D Ive played. Though it has been a number of years since I've played the D&D p-n-p or any other p-n-p series for that matter, I do understand where you are coming from. It is a fact that the npc's you face as a pc in the p-n-p game are controlled by a human DM as opposed to a programmed AI so I can see where allowing PvP in this aspect would not be a bad idea and could add to the gaming experience. The only thing I'm saying is it needs to be done right or not at all. In addition steps would need to be taken that would somehow prevent abusing PvP. If the PvP system was done incorrectly, it could take away from the overall gaming experience.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
What I think would be a grand idea, but it probably won't be, is to have PCs be part of the set of the antagonist against another group of adventures trying to complete the quest. If the atagonist group of PCs working along side NPCs and agrros prevented the adventures from completing their quest or adventure, then they would be the ones awarded with experience and loot. I don't know if this is along the lines of what you are thinking, but it certainly would add a good PvP element to the game that would not be or should not be able to be abused.
You are correct in that the greatest task for Turbine is recreating the DM in the game.
I personally don't care for PvP, I have played it but mostly discovered that during the time I was in a low lvl newb zone that players up in the higher 40s-50s were killing the lvl 8-12s that needed to hunt there...the PKers did this only to up their kill score so they could see their name online in the kill tracking boards. They would go from one end to the other killing the low lvl players, never bothering with each other and then working their way back. I got killed 3 times by one guy just running around the spawning area. They of course didn't bother with each other that would have been too hard of a fight to take on someone closer to their lvl, too much time and effort involved.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
If they would do something like when you create the character to flag yourself as a pvper that may be fine, but have it so that anyone, even the non flagged could attack them...make it classify them as monsters and act as any other mob out there. That way players can have their pvp. Anyone that engages in battle with one tagged gets a temp tag so the pvp player can defend him/herself and fight back but that players that don't want to be pvp can stay that way, unless in said battle, and go back that way...
There you would have the people that didn't want pvp safe from high lvl sneak attack and those that wanted it able to have it able to be killed by anyone or kill pvp people or maybe if lucky kill the players that attack them.
If it was not for the griefing that goes on PvP is fun I love the challenge of hunting in my lvl appropriate zone and risking battle with an equal but 20-30 lvls or more over my head, not cool.
Maybe they could set it up to so that lvl ranged zones let players of the appropriate lvl in to hunt but makes the lvls too high or low for the zone non attackable and unable to be attacked.
I really don't think that would keep in spirit with the pencil and paper game at all. D&D wasn't about the hunt, or the kill, or slaying a ton of mobs. Hell one mob encounter could be fatal to an adventuring party. The focus of the game should be about the Adventuring party and the adventure, not hunting. Do you want D&D or do you want yet another fantasy MMO that is gonna let you do combat til yoru heart is content. I for one am tired of MMO's being combat-centric. When are we going to start getting back into focus? You should feel fear that there MAY be a mob ahead in a dark coridor that you haven't explored yet and if your rogue isn't stealthy enough and gives himself away you have serious problems on your hands. That you can't just bust open a loot chest because the traps suck on them and there are no repurcussions for not having a rogue in the group. That if the wizard gets to much attention or to close to a mob he is TOAST. The fear of not knowing what the monster is thats coming at you and what it may do to you. The excitment of going into a dark cold crypt and wondering just how much the undead in there are gonna rape you if you screw up.
PVP? Tell me how this fits into the spirit of dungeons and dragons? This isn't another Neverwinter Nights at massive scale which shredded the spirit of the pencil and paper game. We have a chance to enjoy D&D for the first time in a visual enviroment and everyone wants yet another hack and slash fantasy MMO. I don't care what history you came up with behind your reason for it.
- Fadeus Hawkwood
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World