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General: New Columnist Garrett Fuller: Heroism
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
We debut a new column by Garrett Fuller, MMORPG.com's latest hire. Every Wednesday he'll take on an MMO related topic and debuts with a simple question: Do MMOs make you feel heroic?
There are several accepted methods to make characters feel heroic and most of them have to do gear, medals, tokens, ship, weapons, etc. But these methods never really leave with a “No s***, I was there story.” Everyone loves it when a random player demands to know where you got that axe. You can smile and tell them you beat the Tuscan Glacier (with your guild).
That happened to me back in Dark Age of Camelot. I remember the pride that the giant axe on my berserker gave me and how I loved it when everyone asked where I got it from. Tuscan Glacier was a raid in Shrouded Isles and it was a huge effort, the raid I remembered took us all day from morning to night, in the end I had an axe to show for my troubles. In many ways current WoW guilds who do raids and are the first to drop bosses are the heroic players of the game. They dedicate the time and energy it takes to solve these massive puzzles and win out in the end. I truly admire these guilds and raid groups and if not for my kids, I would be in there with my shaman every week. The question is where does that leave the rest of us? Where is our heroic experience?
Read it all here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
I don't know, I think "heroism" is sort of a subjective word. By that, I mean that I don't really see killing a monster through teamwork as inherently heroic. I liked where your article started though: in the past, we didn't brag. Now, MMO's are all about becoming the "best" and it always results in players looking out only for their own interests. You know what makes me feel heroic? Dying for the team. I've always played Tank characters.
Final Fantasy XI always made me feel like a hero. I was the Paladin, I've got shining white armor. I take the hits so my team doesn't have to. When things go bad, I Provoke the monster and lead it away from my group as they flee to safety. Perhaps I die, perhaps I even de-level, but I saved my team from a complete wipe. They all thank me for a job well done. I feel like a hero.
I'm crossing a low level zone on my way to my group. A new player accidently links a group of mobs and is certainly going to die. He's running for it. Fear not, friend! I provoke the head monster, and as it begins to attack me, I place a Cure on the running player. I finish off the rest of the mobs, cast Protect on the player and go on my way. He thanks me and I simply nod. I feel like a hero.
Do I see this often though? No. I see people call for help, but no hero answers the call. How many MMO players actually look out for their fellow players? How many out there say "you can camp this notorious monster, I've gotten the drop before." How many players say "go ahead and roll on that gear, I'll pass--it'll do you more good than me." Not many, I'd say. I think heroism in a game is defined in much the same way it would be in the real world. By the character of the people behind the avatar, not by the size of their axe.
But that's just me.
Anyone who thinks a roleplaying game can be a competitive sport does not understand either concept.
The point of roleplaying is to PRETEND. Personally, I think an active imagination is a wonderful quality for a person to have. But to try to claim you're somehow "better" at doing that than anyone else is more than just silly - it's pathetic.
In a pen-and-paper game, true, the people who think they can brag about their imaginary victories don't last very long at all. Unfortunately in a CRPG, it's possible to develop the illusion of superiority. I'd love to strap on a sword and shield, spend a few dozen hours practicing my footwork, and then try my hand at slaughtering orcs in a real-life Holodeck - then I'd happily compare my score to yours. But until somebody invents one of those, the people who "succeed" at MMORPG's don't have any skills other than the ability to devote massive amounts of time and develop an utterly unenviable expertise at "playing the system" for that particular game.
Playing at being a hero is pretty much the OPPOSITE of actually being a hero. Being a hero is raising good kids; signing up for a tour in Afghanistan; developing your career or starting your own business. It makes sense for people to respect those things. When you need a break from that, knock yourself out. Read a novel, watch some football or, better yet, play an MMORPG.
Spend as much or as little time as you can afford to taking part in your own favorite break from the humdrum - and more power to you. But there is a very clear place to draw the line: No one should ever let his sense of self-esteem get tied into an imaginary world - even for a second. That way lies madness.
The very basis of the idea of being a hero is not being one of the faceless untold masses, but someone exceptional. And that, sadly, is where it will have to keep failing to work in MMORPGs, simply because at the moment everyone is a hero, nobody is one anymore.
Additionally, many players who long for that hero feeling are the solo-preferred, time-strapped and often not very skilled casual players, who seek the feeling of being an exceptional being for a few hours, as a fun change from daily life. Unfortunately, since they are by necessity the bottom rung of the ladder in virtually every regard in MMORPGs, making them heroes automatically means everyone will be one, diminishing the feeling greatly, or eliminating it outright.
However, its especially that demographic that has become all the rave for MMORPGs to cater to, and there are already plenty of demands to create a game where the solo casual player can too become a great hero. At the same time, the same players lament that there is nothing they can have that not everyone else has, that they are all just clones, or that they arent treated special by anyone in the game.
So, MMO companies seem to have altered the course to try and equalize. For reasons of envy and greed, it is deemed better to give everyone the same rewards and put everyone at a very close level, so those who cannot be heroes dont have to look at heroes, either.
Its a bit like the lesser of two evils... if you cannot make everyone a hero, make nobody a hero so nobody feels left behind. Its, in a way, the ultimate consequence of a "everyone is special because they paid 15 bucks" concept in a culture of instant gratification and reward.
But most people wont ever feel like a hero.
Maybe a strong Singleplayer component, and segregating players from one another can help a little. Prevent the bottom rungs of the achievement ladder to ever encounter the higher rungs. But in the end, not everyone can be a hero because of the very essence of the concept "hero".
I agree. As a healer if I see some one fighting a mob(s) and losing I will cast heals on them - and by this I mean people i am not grouped or guilded with, strangers. Sometimes that aggros the mob and I get hit and they get the credit when i kill it(often after they run away). Being a Hero means playing like one -helping when you do not have to, or even responding truthfully in a chat to a question on how to kill something or where it may be.
as in another thread I object to the linkage of solo and casual. I play many hours a week and I do a lot of soloing. Soloing is time consuming since you have no back up and have to scout around and do things ata slower pace. Solo'ing, at least for me, is much more challenging than getting a team and going around killing anything that moves - all protected by the safety of numbers, having a tank, dps, and healer. Solo play is actually about self-sufficiency.
The idea of being thought of as a hero in a MMO has never really crossed my mind in any significant manner. I don't play to be a hero. I play to explore a world different than my own. The concept of hero, to me, has nothing to do with what NPC content you conquer. I mean, if you get satisfaction out of NPCs shouting pre-scripted "hurrahs" after you beat Evil Boss 0036, that's cool. Personally I'd get more satisfaction out of knowing I helped someone (PC) with a task, or provided some goods they needed or arrived just in time to prevent their defeat (from NPCs or PCs).
Someone oogling my gear doesn't make me feel heroic or any better than them. Somone thanking me for helping them is about as close to heroic as I care to be.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I never felt like a hero in MMOs. I think of my self more as a soldier.
The game that's gotten me closest to feeling like a Big Damn Hero is the appropriately named City of Heroes. Fighting stiff odds and prevailing because you and your friends make a good team makes you feel accomplished, like you're doing something out of the ordinary. Back in the day, I ran in a three-man team most of the time - a Tanker, a Blaster and a Defender. Three of us took on spawns meant for full eight-man teams, and came out on top. Some times it got pretty damn hairy, some times we got in over our heads, but at the end of the day, we prevailed. Infinity Force won the day, etc.etc.
I'm hoping I can get a similar feel from Champions Online when it drops. There's a difference between feeling heroic, and actually being a hero. The latter is difficult to achieve, and requires a lot of work, great sacrifices, good luck, or all of the above. The former, though, can be achieved by making the player feel like they pulled something off they by rights really should not have been able to.
Games need to understand that people like to stuff other than raid. There should be more to being heroic than raiding.
Reward players for discovering "X" number of places with cool looking stuff.
Give special gear for completing 100, 500, 1000, etc quests.
Give eye candy stuff for "x" number of hours in game. This rewards people who play a bunch but RP or do other things besides getting toomax level.
Give rewards to crafters that create a ton of stuff. Sure they get cash from selling stuff, but give them cool robes or cloaks....stuff like that.
It's not all about raiding and "the end game". What happened to all the stuff in between that took the devs 5 years to make in the first place.
There's all kind of cool stuff they could do....if they wanted to.
Yes. This is sensible thinking. CoH did some in this direction with its badges (that could be used as name 'epithets' of sorts) for all sorts of things, from defeating certain enemies or missions, to exploration, to crafting, to trading on the marketplace or spending a certain amount of time in a zone, but bigger, better, more of this!
wow some great posts here guys.
Thanks for the Feedback. I more posed the question than anything else in the editorial, I think it is an interesting thought. The concept of a hero is always fascinating. You know look what Lucas did with Star Wars originally and the Hero with a Thousand Faces.
I do agree with the poster who mentioned real life scenarios. Being a role model to my kids and raising a good family is by far the most important aspect of my life.
Folks, believe me, Japo there has a point. When I played CoH (City of Heroes/Villains) I got a Defender to level 50. I played off and on with my two fellows (best friend and brother) but mostly I went solo. Had no problem for 20 levels or so but as time went on I found solo play (yes....like a superhero) becoming more and more difficult. Losing over and over again (failing or dying) begins to bring frustration, not fun. So I found myself having to join groups...no choice. Groups whether ad hoc or regular buddy players, was a most erratic and generally frustrating experience. Even getting together with my two fellow players was often difficult because of real life activities (job etc).
The badges in CoH were interesting, for a while, but basically I wanted my "hero" to go accomplish something for myself. The high level areas were the exclusive use of groups so I began playing less and less. But yes, I wanted something special, or special stuff myself, but I enjoy the one on one against the odds feel you got when you first started leveling. So far WOW is the best at it (check out their subscription base) and the condenscion (and hate) from its detractors is just a bit arrogant as not everybody that disagrees with you is a dummie/idiot/carebear etc....).
I am a retired game designer for TSR and Pacesetter Games (PnP-RPG) and have some time to enjoy my hobby, gaming. I think MMORPG are downright great for an individual to have fun and relaxation. Since I love to play RPG games I have had a lot of experience (since 1976) and have found that a good game gets its players to immerse themselves in their characters. Some players have little interest in the character, only in 'beating' others...either NPC or PvP. Getting their characters killed, or someone else's, doesn't bother them in the least. I hate losing my character, even in a faux death because I enjoy identifying with that character. Which might also explain the high interest level in getting "stuff" to outfit my char for further adventures.
While game companies may also know this (or not) they have a large number of requirements (and motivations) for producing a game. Genre, programming requirements and limitaions, art, music, payrolls and overhead, money/money/money etc. Promoting their games is vital and the use of hyperbole (new/fresh/unique/better) is common, making it sometimes difficult for the people to spend their money wisely.
Since I already play WOW I am working through a personal game list I want to try. Champions came to my notice as well as DC Comics. I already yearn to play another superhero game, not CoH/CoV, and a few things in their prelaunch dev blogs have caught my interest. The Nemesis system, depending on how it is implemented, might actually give a single player an end game experience, without requiring a group. Things that attract a player to immerse themselves into the character they select (such as charater creation, costume, possessions, powers and abilities, all will contribute to long term play. Companies need to have you stay in the game! There is, at this time, an overwhelming avalanche of PvP/guild/realm/group only material being added and advertised to both older games such as WOW (look at their new update - mostly raid/dungeon/arena - little for the rest of their base) and the upcoming releases. If in doubt then simply count the number of times they use PvP/realm/group etc and the times the say 'singleplayer'.
Different people like different things. That's why I am trying out different games to see what I like best and how the company manages to deliver. One more point...The majority of WOW's player base are PvE. Just count the PvP servers for yourself. I like playing solo, I like the special "stuff" as much as any raider type and my imagination is just fine, thank you. Good blog stream guys, hope to hear more from Mr. Garrett (My best friend of 35 years is named Garrett).
for me the Devs can never make me feel like a hero that all came down to me.
In CoH when i want to feel like a heoric Badass i load my IOed out DM/DA scrapper and dominate a map on invincible
For the Heroic Protector Load my FF/Rad and fly around Atlass giving Drive By Bubbles, or my tank and just auto taunt some mob that is pounding that blaster.
In LoTRO i routinly camp boss sites after i got the quest reward for about half a hour and tank the boss so lowbies can get the mob. Or give out free Dwarf Iron Tailor tools because i crafted 5 sets and i don't really need to sell them. Hell i've gotten emails days later from people saying "thanks for the tools, your the best!"
I agree with comments made about FFXI, that is a game taht gets the true hero feel across. Every battle is an epic one and can turn on you easily. You can be leveling in the dunes and all of a sudden chain of 10 goblins ruins the day, but miracuously a passing ninja jumps off his chocobo, provokes them all and kills every last one. Your'e all saved and it's a pretty fun story, now thats on a basic run of the mill level up monster. Take one of the harder quests in the game or the end game events and things go up a notch. FFXI also had a good working 3 faction control system whcih as the OP gave a good sense of pride and fighting for ones country. It was always well worth the 20 min trek to get a signet for your country.
Another game i felt had this quality was RuneScape, back in the day when clans of 20 would go kill the King Black Dragon or Kalphite Queen and odds are around 4-5 woudl survive. Why? For a 1/500 chance of a drop. Those were pretty good and stories of a win would be good, hell even a failed attempt woudl bring about a good story. Nowadays though RuneScape has to many methos for killing large bosses available without any particularly hard bosses. You have god wars and stuff but it taks a weel equipped and prepared 4 man team to easily do the job. No epic battles of many deaths.
Games that follow the WoW sadness though, and indeed WoW itself are just well dull. No epic stories, no epic high level saving you in your hour of need (cos most of them think 'pffft' or simply watch u die and 'lol'). If someone does have a story of completing a high level raid its either all been done before or you've seen on youtube a million times.
Other games iv tried and seen some vauge heroicness or good stroies are early days of games such as age of conan, when pvp spammers would kill all the lowbies in an area as they spawn, then a few players woudl band together to stop him or guilds would hunt other guilds. Again when trying Age of conan a year on i found it to be no where near as exciting and everything was a grind to high level with only attempts at stories involving raids.
So what do I think makes the heroism aspect alive in a game? Community, the better a games community the better the feeling of heroism and the better stories are told or made. Take FFXI, great community, everyone talks if only because you are forced to. With this great community comes the telling of these stories, the helping of lower players to make epic stories. Runescape used to have a much better community before more recent updates, no one in the game talks any more unless its in a clan chat. So no one asking or telling good stories or asking where you got an item. WoW? The game doesnt even have a community outside of your own personal friends, the odd random player lost on his way to a good mmo, or a clan...well unless you consider 'OMG U NOOB U DONT HAVE L33T ITEM NO 7652?!?!'
I think LoTRO also gives youthat heroic feeling in a few instances. Take the Balrog in Moria. Your not SUPPOSED to beat it. But a group of players did and youtubed it. That's pretty epic. I mean its tanamount to your team beating Sauron.
Funnily enough, I hear all the time about how people act more like asses in mmos or online in general because of the anonymity of the internet. But in my case, it's the opposite ( in games anyway, I'm pretty much true to form in forums ). I'm a certifiable butthole in real life. I'm the kind of guy where if someone were at the top of a ladder screaming "Help, the ladder is breaking!", I'd more than likely stop and take a seat to watch what happens. But ingame, i'm the first one to come running when someone screams "Help, I'm gonna die!".
The thing is with raids and short instances is i never felt like all that big of a deal when we got done beating it. Sure it might of been a bit of a pain but all those places are built to be beat. I mean give me a place were the odds are 5/100. Were every one has to be on the same page or risk a whole entire whipe. Now when i play DnD (3.5) with my friends, Our DM loves to throw things at us that are almost imposiable. Sure we can do it but we have to have great team work and think outside the box.
CENTER]
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
Glad you said that, and not me, buddy. ;-D
But you have a point. It goes both ways. Some people, offered anonymity, become, as Gabe of Penny Arcade puts it, 'utter f***wads' [bowdlerized to protect the guilty]. Others go the opposite way. It makes for an interesting look at society - how much of people's good behavior is enforced solely by the threat of being shunned by their peers? And how many of us hide good hearts under hard exteriors for whatever reason?
When you compare heroic accomplishments in a living D&D game to those in an MMO, you're comparing playing an active, interesting role in a constantly evolving story, to playing Mage #3323 in instance #22. The depth of a challenge is limited by a level playing field and game mechanics in one, and only by imagination in the other. Having experienced a good D&D campaign, no MMO will ever measure up for you in that capacity.
I think the lack of real lasting consequences dispels the significance of heroics, leaving only a basis of comparison for bragging rights.
I think Kopema confused the concept of true heroism with the abstraction of Heroism as generated by mechanics in a Role-playing game as it relates to myth and fantasy convention. The question is do mmos make you feel heroic, not what makes a real hero in society. Citing Afghanistan in your post was absurd, although I enjoyed the bit about hacking Orcs in a holodeck ;p
Essentially, When we read a fantasy story or watch a fantasy film, we enjoy the feeling we experience when the hero vanquishes the foe or solves the problem, outthinks his opponent, wins the girl/boy etc. We experience a sense of wonder at the fantastical worlds the hero adventures in. Traditionally, this is what RPG's were meant to bring us; the chance to adventure in these worlds, overcome similar heroic challenges that our favorite heroes might have faced. With video games and mmos, The world of the story was no longer confined to our heads, or limited to some sketches on paper, we could actually enter them and move around by means of an avatar, and in the case of mmo's, with other people.
Of course we lose that intimate experience that we get with books or film because we don’t have a protagonist to identify with, and a master-storyteller to craft a tale that moves us deeply. All we have to draw from is our knowledge of convention and memories of story we have experienced time and time again. And we do.
It's not much different than as a kid, watching Conan or Sword and the Sorcerer (Lee Horsley hah!) and then grabbing a toy sword and defeating imaginary enemies. You felt heroic and you imagined yourself doing the things the protagonists did.
This is where Kopema gets it wrong with the self esteem comment, and where it’s relevant to the OP. While a kid with a toy sword might be in an imaginary world, an mmo has real people playing, attempting to accomplish real goals and having real interactions with others. If someone is having difficulty or a problem, it’s a real problem. Generally, if you help someone who’s having trouble, both you and they will feel better. That is genuine. So Kopema's comment about self-esteem is completely invalid here.
I fully agree with the previous points stating that helping others made the players feel heroic to some extent. Basically you feel good for helping someone, and the setting and circumstance coupled with our knowledge of heroic story helps us to feel heroic, be it a little or a lot.
Sure we may feel somewhat heroic flawlessly killing an instance or overwhelming odds, or going back to the newbie area and pounding 25 creatures at once that as a level 1 gave us endless trouble, but this gets old after your first mmo. I believe the times that enable us to feel the most heroic might be when we are able to selflessly help those of (possibly) lesser ability who need it. That never gets old.
Then again, for some of us, those of lesser ability make great targets!
Dev
www.TXcomics.com "Your daily webcomics broadcast"
Actually, I think the author misled us a bit. I don't think it's being perceived as a hero so much that he is looking for, but that feeling of being part of an epic adventure. (At least that's what I got out of it.)
Everyone can't be a "hero" per say, because anything you can do can be duplicated by the masses. Heroes in the traditional sense accomplish amazing things against overwhelming odds and somehow come out on top. Children aspire to be like them when they grow up because they want to be like them.
I have had moments in MMO's that I felt were quite epic...but that doesn't happen often anymore. Everything is too generic in the effort to appeal to the masses. There is nothing unique anymore.
Something simple, but memorable for me was running out to the Hibernian Merchant keep (old frontiers) From Mount Collary for the first time. Old DAOC'ers will know what I'm talking about.
Anyway, it was like, 3:00 a.m., I was all of lvl 35 on my ranger. One of my guild officers asks in /gu if anyone has enough woodworking to fix the keep door. I answered up that I could do it.
So..long story short, I run solo through the frontier where there are lvl 50's from the opposing realm looking to kill me, npc mobs of lvl 50-65 trying to kill me, and I have no idea where I'm going. Eventually I made it to the keep and fixed the doors, just in time to fend off an Albion attack.
I didn't single handedly kill the horde of enemies, or smite the dragon, etc. and so on..but that was an epic, heartpounding 30 minutes or so I'll never forget.
Feeling the epicness of a heroic quest doesn't have to be at the head of a 100 man army, or even slaying more enemy players than everyone else, or having the coolest piece of gear. However, moments like the one I just relayed, just don't seem to happen anymore.
I miss those kinds of situations. Games are so stuck on itemization, min/max and easy mode now that these things simply don't happen that often.
Personally I've had Hero moments playing Lord of the Rings Online. Mainly through quests that made me feel like I've accomplished something or helped someone in some invaluable way, even though most people in the game have done that same quest. I've also had times where I've been in a group of friends running an instance and we fail, and fail, and fail again but keep going at it and eventually everything clicks and we succeed, though others have run the same instance I still feel like a hero.
Unfortunately like others have mentioned that when you help someone in LOTRO the game penalizes the helpee. If you're running through an area and you see a player in distress and you cast a heal on them or hit a monster once they automatically loose about half of the XP they would of made by killing the monster outright. So helping can be a double-edged sword where sometimes you'll be thanked for the help or sometimes you'll be cussed at for the help. Now I understand why the LOTRO devs include this penalty - to discourage dishonest players from tagging mobs and running them to someone else who is engaged in their own fight to have to kill, but in the end it also discourages the more noble help instinct that many players have and they simply will not bother.
You pretty much nailed it. No matter what MMO I play, helping others always makes me feel somewhat the hero.
It's hard to be a Hero to the masses in a MMORPG. You have to do something no one else has done or can do.
This is why they put in achievements and special titles + mounts and such for being the first or the best of the best etc. in World of Warcraft.
These people stand out and can be a Hero to the masses because they did something no one else did, or the did it first.
That is about the only kind of Hero you can aspire to in order to be "the" Hero on your server/in the game.
But, what MMOs have always been good at is making players the "Hero of the hour."
Saving from a wipe by some smart thinking and great playing, somehow over coming the odds and winning a 2vs1 arena etc.
You are only a Hero to the people who were there, but for most that is enough.
You are always going to be a Hero to the NPCs, but to be a Hero to other players you have to either do something no one else has done, do something amazing and be the first to do it...
or you just have to settle for being the Hero of the hour for your friends/group or that random player you saved.
Speaking of heroes, who the hell's bicep is that on the home page for this article? I work out like a mad man and would love to have biceps with that form to it. Mine just keep getting bigger but don't have that shape.
Anyone know how to get biceps like that. Because if I had those I would be my own hero!
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