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Classless? Classes? Freedom? No Freedom? Unique? Lifelike?
neo750a
Member Posts: 75
Scowering these threads, I notice that these are the general issue most people have with MMO's. I am a part of them aswell. Everyone either likes to keep with what they are use to with new content or a better way of doing it or something totally different from what they are use to.
Class's allow people to feel "unique" from one another as they provide different things to a group working together or give the player a play style they'd like to play through the game. Many though don't feel that uniqueness after a while when you see before you there are people playing the same class.
Classless avatars allow players to have a sort of freedom. Able to fill any type of role or progress the game in a variety of play styles. This would give a great deal of uniqueness to an extent, though problem is, avatars would be casting the same spells or using the same abilities and weapons.
Freedom vs No Freedom. Sandbox style like Eve Online or Darkfall against WoW or FFXI. Is there a way to mix these "styles'" of game designs to apply to everyone? Perhaps, but it would be very difficult to work correctly or as intended. Since people play differently from each other, things don't go as intended and many accidental things happen.
When people think Next Gen, to me I think they want something more lifelike and allows them to be more unique from everyone else. Everyone loves the feeling of being acknowledged by their peers when they do something great or rare, never done before, or discovering something or aqcuiring an item that would make people feel everlasting jealousy. When people know your name, its exciting because your now different from the rest. "So your Luke Skywalker! I wanna be just like you!" or "Lol your Leroy Jenkins!? Your awesome!".
Getting kinda sidetracked. Since technology has improved a great deal over the past years, alot of people want more graphical animations, effects, unique art styles, new sounds, epic music, new or versatile play style, and able to make a difference. This is what people probably seek most for Next Gen MMO's.
The Ultimate MMO for me would be something like an MMO style Age of Empires where you start from the ground up, fighting with sticks and stones, to swords and magic, to guns and missles, lazers and robots, to space ships and planet destroyers, to technology so advanced, it would seem godlike. Able to make a difference in the world by accidently making the plague, so you can't enter a certain region unless your properly equipped or you burned down a forest or changing a rivers path.
Evolving technology, actually being able to change how you interact with the world on the fly. Obviously this will be taken as not an RTS but rather you being a single individual.
Comments
Classes to me do just the opposite of making me feel "unique". Instead, they make me feel binded ,scripted by someone else, not allowing me to write my own script, not allowing me to decide what I want to do with my character. Very limiting, and very undesireable in my eyes.
1. characer appearance should have nothing to do whatsoever with ability, just as " don;t judge a book by it's cover". This inculdes armor, clothing, race, everything.
2.If every item in game was craftable, upgradeable, salvageable, socketable, dropable and tradable people would be able to wear whatever they wanted, create their own style and fight however they wished, which would in fact make them more unique than prescripted classes.
3. If They were able to access all game content, and all game content was made with strengths and weaknesses, no specific skillset that overpowered the rest, then each player would be different according to their own real strengths and weaknesses. They would design their character to whatever they enjoyed doing rather than a "cookie cutter " mould that is currently being used in most mmos with classes. No player would not be the same due to the fact that people are not the same.
I'd like everyone to have a reputation. Not as many players would act like such an asses to everyone in that case, since if you have a bad rep you can't access endgame or other group content (because nobody wants you there).
It kinda goes along with your feeling unique idea. If you're a good guy that helps people, or have conquered a great number of beasts, everyone would know (especially those who you've helped along the way). I've actually had exactly what you described happen to me, and that was quite.. a shocking experience. While it may or may not be possible to be different from the rest in the gameplay standpoint, everyone would have their own reputation at least (it's hardly ever the same for anyone, right?).
I'm not really a fan of mixing everything together.. I'd rather have sandbox Or themepark, but that's just me. It might weaken the experience for either playstyle, since there are 2 things to take into factor instead of just 1.
What is your definition of a bad rep? Killing everyone you see? Flaming?
I think each MMO has its own formula and you will prefer the one that is closest to your favorite.
Class based MMOs create cookie cutter feelings while skill based usually end up with FoTMs due to min/maxing.
Themeparks are a great ride seeing a story unfold while sandboxes a regreat until abused or worn out.
I say find out what you like best about an MMO and them find the MMO that closest resembles your interests.
I like having classes. I like having a paticuliar role in a party. That being said, I am looking forward to champions, where you get to pick your powers from different sets. It sounds interesting. I may change my mind after that.
I think the combination is important in oreder for me to fid the one that suits me. Due to the factors that determine what that is.
1. I need to be able to play it with my friends who all enjoy different things. Some are good at pvp, some are not.
2. I need to be able to have both small and large single player and multicombat zones to appease my appetite for chaos.
I think themepark and sandbox can be made successfully together as long as the content is equal for all styles. Map zoning, skill balancing, and availability to all types of players would easily solve the problems that arise between both tyoes of players.
In a classless game, you can still have a designated role or created class created by you in a party. That does not change, the only thing that chages is your enemies being able to determine what you are and prepare to counter you due to your prescripted strengths and weaknesses. In a classless game they do not know what you are capable of until they fight you or are told by someone else who has, and you are capable of changing that if need be at any time. You then have the ability to change what they may be predicting by your previous actions with your other abilities.
Acting like a jerk. basically. Ninja looting, that stuff.
Acting like a jerk. basically. Ninja looting, that stuff.
That is hard for the programs to determine, it would have to be determined by other players, thus allowing it open for major abuse. All someone would have to do to ruin someones rep is get a group of friends and all vote on it. Determining whether or not someone is a jerk could not be decided by a program alone, thus leaving it open to abuse.
Say for example, killing a much lower level, well all someone would have to do it create low level characters and approach said person and follow them around insulting them until they finally killed them.. these systems are too easy to manipulate, and why they should not be used.
I am in favor of an in game court, however by random selection of players with good records and a moderator judge to punish players. Say the judge and jury of players determines that because of a players unseen behavior their character is tied to a tree on some random island for a deteremined amount of time, where other players could throw vegtables and small rodents at them would be a suitable punishment.
The punished player would not be able to excel in game until they served their time, and the players they abused could receive redemption.
I wouldn't make the game determine these things.. but for this to work well, some special things need to apply to the game.
First of all, there should be communication between all players. When you see a jerk in-game, you can tell your guild about it, they tell to people they know about it, and word spreads. If the guy continues to be a jerk, he'll soon find that everyone knows about his actions and can't progress in the game as well as before.
But the game should take enough time to clear for the rep to 'develop'. If you get through everything in a matter of months, there might not be enough time for your rep to develop. But if you play for years, on the same character, at some point players will recognize you (through your actions- they leave an invisible mark to the game world, and players won't forget).
If you can just make an alt and 'hide' behind it and 'reset' your rep, this is quite bad, too. If you act like a jerk, you can just log in on your other character and nobody will know that you're "that guy".
Server transfers are the same thing, but if servers share communication they can be warned about the jerk, too.
Your idea about leaving the jerk on a desert island is funny, though. I don't know if such in-game feature is needed though.
I wouldn't make the game determine these things.. but for this to work well, some special things need to apply to the game.
First of all, there should be communication between all players. When you see a jerk in-game, you can tell your guild about it, they tell to people they know about it, and word spreads. If the guy continues to be a jerk, he'll soon find that everyone knows about his actions and can't progress in the game as well as before.
But the game should take enough time to clear for the rep to 'develop'. If you get through everything in a matter of months, there might not be enough time for your rep to develop. But if you play for years, on the same character, at some point players will recognize you (through your actions- they leave an invisible mark to the game world, and players won't forget).
If you can just make an alt and 'hide' behind it and 'reset' your rep, this is quite bad, too. If you act like a jerk, you can just log in on your other character and nobody will know that you're "that guy".
Server transfers are the same thing, but if servers share communication they can be warned about the jerk, too.
Your idea about leaving the jerk on a desert island is funny, though. I don't know if such in-game feature is needed though.
The rep system is too easy to abuse though. First off, I can easily have 600 of my closest friends do whatever I tell them to do. I was their old guild leader, even if that means get rid of someone that annoys me.
You see on that scale, which many of us gamers have alot of "friends" that will cooperate regardless of if they know the person or not, making it easy to abuse such systems to our benefit.
I have seen in games how easy this abused, by ruining the reps of guilds, their opposing leaders and such through these "word of mouth" systems regardless of it is founded or not. Large scale rivalries just add fuel to the fire.
Actually an in game court , with random selected jurors and a mod judge would be much harder to manipulate due to the process itself. It would be more fair for both sides than just a "rep" system.
Any game will allow you to make an alt.. I have seen a guy that paid for 17 WOW subs just to raid by himself, there is no way to stop "alts" no matter the game rules. I have friends that sit in a room filled with hundreds of computers all night answering phones and do nothing but play tons of characters on multiple games at once .. There is no way to prevent that.
Remember, that that person will have friends too- that are on his side. It does even out in the end.. and if the guy doesn't have any friends, might that have something to do with his rep in the first place? Also, he must've done something to annoy you.. Players who have heard what you 2 have done but don't 'know' you will judge the situation based on their views, so most of the players you can't affect.
Usually, to ruin the rep of guild or their leader, evidence is needed. Just calling them out on hacking or something most often means that you're jealous of them or something similar. And even then it's your guild against theirs.
Either alts would have to be somehow related to the main character, or the more you play the larger the gap between continuing on that old character and making an alt should become. Even if the jerk has to make an alt, he'd lose so much progression that it might not be worth it to do it.
I wouldn't make the game determine these things.. but for this to work well, some special things need to apply to the game.
First of all, there should be communication between all players. When you see a jerk in-game, you can tell your guild about it, they tell to people they know about it, and word spreads. If the guy continues to be a jerk, he'll soon find that everyone knows about his actions and can't progress in the game as well as before.
But the game should take enough time to clear for the rep to 'develop'. If you get through everything in a matter of months, there might not be enough time for your rep to develop. But if you play for years, on the same character, at some point players will recognize you (through your actions- they leave an invisible mark to the game world, and players won't forget).
If you can just make an alt and 'hide' behind it and 'reset' your rep, this is quite bad, too. If you act like a jerk, you can just log in on your other character and nobody will know that you're "that guy".
Server transfers are the same thing, but if servers share communication they can be warned about the jerk, too.
Your idea about leaving the jerk on a desert island is funny, though. I don't know if such in-game feature is needed though.
The rep system is too easy to abuse though. First off, I can easily have 600 of my closest friends do whatever I tell them to do. I was their old guild leader, even if that means get rid of someone that annoys me.
You see on that scale, which many of us gamers have alot of "friends" that will cooperate regardless of if they know the person or not, making it easy to abuse such systems to our benefit.
I have seen in games how easy this abused, by ruining the reps of guilds, their opposing leaders and such through these "word of mouth" systems regardless of it is founded or not. Large scale rivalries just add fuel to the fire.
Actually an in game court , with random selected jurors and a mod judge would be much harder to manipulate due to the process itself. It would be more fair for both sides than just a "rep" system.
Any game will allow you to make an alt.. I have seen a guy that paid for 17 WOW subs just to raid by himself, there is no way to stop "alts" no matter the game rules. I have friends that sit in a room filled with hundreds of computers all night answering phones and do nothing but play tons of characters on multiple games at once .. There is no way to prevent that.
Algortithms could be written in a rep system that would filter out anomolies in results. Say a person gets 100 negative votes from the same guild..... those results could be discounted some percentage.
And I doubt you really have 600 people you know who would blacklist someone just on your word. I wouldn't, I trust no one that implicitly, if I don't know the facts, its just not going to happen.
Utimately you could create an appeal process where cases could be heard and rep restored.
Another idea is to make voting a player rep a rare tool, in other words, you only get say one or two chances to vote per month, so they'd better be saved for when you really need it. Hey, they could put additional rep votes in the cash shop and increase their revenue stream...... just kidding.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
IMO, if you want to feel "unique" because of your game combat abilities, that's what a single player game is for. You can be Luke Skywalker, or Darth Vader, or Legolas, etc. OR, you can play a First Person Shooter, where you are the best of the best with a sniper rifle if you have those l33t twitch skillz.
In an MMORPG you are unique because of your personality and the way you interact with other people.
For example, there was a guild on a server I played on in DAoC called the Red Cross. It was mostly healers. If you were lost in a zone with hostile mobs the Red Cross would come and escort you out. If you were dead at teh bottom of a Dungeon the Red Cross would go down there and rez you. All you had to do was ask nicely,a nd if the Red Cross was on in any numbers they would help you if they could.
that made them unique, even though they had the exact same class as every other healer in the game.
IMO, if you want to feel "unique" because of your game combat abilities, that's what a single player game is for. You can be Luke Skywalker, or Darth Vader, or Legolas, etc. OR, you can play a First Person Shooter, where you are the best of the best with a sniper rifle if you have those l33t twitch skillz.
In an MMORPG you are unique because of your personality and the way you interact with other people.
For example, there was a guild on a server I played on in DAoC called the Red Cross. It was mostly healers. If you were lost in a zone with hostile mobs the Red Cross would come and escort you out. If you were dead at teh bottom of a Dungeon the Red Cross would go down there and rez you. All you had to do was ask nicely,a nd if the Red Cross was on in any numbers they would help you if they could.
that made them unique, even though they had the exact same class as every other healer in the game.
Yea I totally agree with you. It's your actions that will definately set you apart from the rest in the MMO your playing. Trying to design a game for every person to be unique would be pretty tough, which I wonder how the new Star Wars will do.
But wouldn't it be nice to have like a random uber item drop or learn a random spell noone else would have?
Yea, this would be awesome. The NPC thing would definately be an easy thing to do, though they probably don't do it for the fact that its less work to even implement a system that replaces an NPC when they die. Though it probably be a name generator for new NPC's that spawned or pick a random character model.
Landscapes changing with the seasons would definately bring the game more atmosphere. If NPC's actually moved during the changing seasons, or new NPC's would show up in different areas depending if its winter or summer or something to that effect. As far as players able to mess with the land scape....it will be a while until that is able to be done lol.
Yes it would be nice for you, but everyone else would Q_Q.
I agree with the opening post - well said. Greater character uniqueness and open-ended development and advancement would be great attractions to long-term subscription.
What it seems to me that is preventing such a concept from being developed is the adherence to the "end game" concept, and the distinct class model as the functional vehicle for participating in the end game content. Classes by definition are limitations of character development, and in context of a specific kind of end-game, they must be confined so that groups of various classes "make sense" in the end-game scenario. Also, there must be limitations to linear power-development of characters so that single characters cannot overpower groups or content designed for groups.
I envision a game that is based on unlimited character development, both in a linear fashion and laterally, so that players do have the capacity, over great periods of subscription time (years), to become "godlike" in their power, appearance, and abilities. There would be no "end-game" as such, but more recent subscribers, while enjoying a "catch-up" development rate, woud also have in-game these old, godlike characters around.
For example, as one advances down blunt instrument weapon specializations into two-handed hammer use, they can spend all the time they want studying two-handed hammer use: damage - and just keep increasing their damage output when using two-handed hammers - without limit. They can spend a year studying this if they wish, 24/7 (aha! my 24/7 character advancement mechanism sneaks in!), gradually raising their damage output with any such specific weapon to be the highest on the server. Of course, they might not be much good at anything else, and their health might not be very high ...
But, you can see how the potential for truly unique characters throughout the game is exponentially increased by doing away with the classic "class" system. Of course, someone could still train to be melee, and another in his guild train to be the healer, etc ., forming their own powerful standard class group, and be much more powerful, and go through content much faster, than any soloer starting at the same time.
I posted this in the sandbox vs. theme park thread, but I think a blend of classes and no classes with freedom, and also some scripted content would make for a very good MMO.
One good example of a hybrid/mix is having the skill based system of a typical sandbox, but allow users to declare that they are X class. There could be tons of classes, and to be that class you have to have the required skills, and by selecting the class you get a bonus to one thing while a negative to another.
An example would be Paladin:
Required 1 Hand Sword Skill: 50+
Required Shield Skill: 50+
Required Healing Magic: 30+
Required Heavy Armor: 30+
Bonuses:
10% bonus to healing, 15% bonus to defense, 5% bonus to blocking with shield
Negative Effects:
10% Reduction in Melee Damage, 5% Reduction in Offensive Spell Damage
Bonus Ability:
Lay On Hands~
You get my drift by now. I actually think Mortal Online at one point was planning a system something like this. This allows for a sandbox style skill based system, but it also allows for people to have more defined roles. It can kind of be thought of in context with EVE online and the ships you pilot. Every time you leave a station you are in a ship, and you can pilot that ship based on the skills you have acquired. Piloting different ships is like taking on the role of a class whether it be general combat, covert ops, mining, hauling, etc.
In the same vein you can have freedom to do what you want, but also have epic storylines for players to partake in that normally only exist in theme park games. You can have an open free world with a non linear map layout that has deep lore and a fleshed out setting at the same time. In all elements of an MMO you can have freedom tied in with aspects of theme park games and not restrict the player, but instead give that one extra level of freedom in choosing whether to put themselves into a class role or partake in scripted questlines.
I like having classes and having specifically designed roles. What I don't like is when every class is the same meaning they all have the same skills and they all have the same equipment (i.e. Lineage 2). But I also play EVE and what I liked about EVE was that you could be anything you want and with time, you could acquire skills that you wanted.
So to balance, I think it would be good to have classes in which that class has skills that no other class can have access to. Then allow a large amount of skills to be general and available to all classes or have it based on alignment or other factors. But it is a must that certain classes have skills no one else has, but these unique skills don't pigeon hole you into a certain role, it just makes you extremely suitable to unique roles that aren't a must to progress in the game.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Not to keep beating that horse (alive or dead), but with a 24/7 character advancement system and unlimited character development both in linear and lateral directions, the advancement of the character would not be dependent upon one's familiarity with the landscape or particular NPCs; IOW, the developers coud do anything they wanted to the world, in the world, etc., and it wouldn't adversely affect the advancement of the characters (causing player dissatisfaction or anxiety).
One of the things I dislike about the current MMOG end-game model and grouping mechanisms is that developers constantly nerf abilities, change talents, rework classes, angering players because all their hard work was ** based** on a system that developers just went in and changed up to "fix" balance or end game issues. I'd like to go into a game **knowing** that my long-term strategy for becoming the Uber Ranged Rogue Master of Flaming Shiruken-tossing (with a side of flight power and a little healing tossed in) wasn't going to be thrown out by some developer two years into it because flamiing shiruken-tossing was considered "overpowered" and "unbalancing".
The world can change all it wants: LEAVE MY CHARACTER ALONE.
I wouldn't make the game determine these things.. but for this to work well, some special things need to apply to the game.
First of all, there should be communication between all players. When you see a jerk in-game, you can tell your guild about it, they tell to people they know about it, and word spreads. If the guy continues to be a jerk, he'll soon find that everyone knows about his actions and can't progress in the game as well as before.
But the game should take enough time to clear for the rep to 'develop'. If you get through everything in a matter of months, there might not be enough time for your rep to develop. But if you play for years, on the same character, at some point players will recognize you (through your actions- they leave an invisible mark to the game world, and players won't forget).
If you can just make an alt and 'hide' behind it and 'reset' your rep, this is quite bad, too. If you act like a jerk, you can just log in on your other character and nobody will know that you're "that guy".
Server transfers are the same thing, but if servers share communication they can be warned about the jerk, too.
Your idea about leaving the jerk on a desert island is funny, though. I don't know if such in-game feature is needed though.
The rep system is too easy to abuse though. First off, I can easily have 600 of my closest friends do whatever I tell them to do. I was their old guild leader, even if that means get rid of someone that annoys me.
You see on that scale, which many of us gamers have alot of "friends" that will cooperate regardless of if they know the person or not, making it easy to abuse such systems to our benefit.
I have seen in games how easy this abused, by ruining the reps of guilds, their opposing leaders and such through these "word of mouth" systems regardless of it is founded or not. Large scale rivalries just add fuel to the fire.
Actually an in game court , with random selected jurors and a mod judge would be much harder to manipulate due to the process itself. It would be more fair for both sides than just a "rep" system.
Any game will allow you to make an alt.. I have seen a guy that paid for 17 WOW subs just to raid by himself, there is no way to stop "alts" no matter the game rules. I have friends that sit in a room filled with hundreds of computers all night answering phones and do nothing but play tons of characters on multiple games at once .. There is no way to prevent that.
Algortithms could be written in a rep system that would filter out anomolies in results. Say a person gets 100 negative votes from the same guild..... those results could be discounted some percentage.
And I doubt you really have 600 people you know who would blacklist someone just on your word. I wouldn't, I trust no one that implicitly, if I don't know the facts, its just not going to happen.
Utimately you could create an appeal process where cases could be heard and rep restored.
Another idea is to make voting a player rep a rare tool, in other words, you only get say one or two chances to vote per month, so they'd better be saved for when you really need it. Hey, they could put additional rep votes in the cash shop and increase their revenue stream...... just kidding.
Actually, It would result in alot more than 600 blacklisting them simply because the guild members have many people who work for them, and in order to trade via our website they would all view the blacklist information. The way we ran blacklists was anyone caught trading with them, helping them in any way was banned from trade with our guild, which controlled most of the trade of the game, and blacklisted themselves . When our guild blacklisted someone , all reputable guilds blacklisted them as well. It set off a chain of events. Basically ruined the game for them.
We actually had people follow them everywhere they went when they logged in. For example this one guy pretended to be a girl and conned a friend out of expensive armor. So, I put them on the list listing their crime. Everytime that person logged in, since we had members on every server, people followed them and harrassed them until finally the guy became so sick of it he gave my friend back his armor telling us, " just make it stop!". We also had bounties placed on them, but you had to have member access to collect and view our bounties, in order to prevent abuse. If someone killed their own friend, they obviously could not collect bounty.
Many people were blacklisted for being ex's and such as well, even when they really didn't do anything to deserve that treatment, guild members blacklisted people for all sorts of reasons. The worst abuse of such systems is those that do not play by the rules anyhow though. Scammers, hackers, 3rd party RMT often use these features to " get rid "of people trying to stop them from breaking the rules. Say they are cheating, scamming ect, and the victim they cheated then gets upset and starts yelling at them. They take the screenies and post them and claim that guy is a flamer / griefer or whatever. When that player most of the time is considerate to others and does not act that way normally. They are now going to have a tarnished rep when it was undeserved. Also in games I have seen people fake screen shots, edit them to make them appear to be something other than they are, that is what happens in these systems.
In a classless game, you can still have a designated role or created class created by you in a party. That does not change, the only thing that chages is your enemies being able to determine what you are and prepare to counter you due to your prescripted strengths and weaknesses. In a classless game they do not know what you are capable of until they fight you or are told by someone else who has, and you are capable of changing that if need be at any time. You then have the ability to change what they may be predicting by your previous actions with your other abilities.
Ahhh, see, I don't PvP. Unfortunately in a classless system, people usually do the FotM. You have A LOT of peeps running around with the very same build, because someone on the board decided it was the BEST build. Thus, most everyone uses it. (this happens in a class system of play too).
Or...in the few games that this is possible, everyone wil try to get every skill (looks at DF). I think for a classless system to work there must be some parameters, or else everyone is going to pick the Moe build over the Larry and Curly (and sometimes Shemp) build. That is, of course, until the rebalancing hammer comes along, then everyone switches to the Larry build. (Sorry, 3 Stooges is on the teley)
As stated before, I like to have roles in a party. Unfortunately in a classless system without parameters, that is hard to do.
dumb idea
get one big guild to - rep people and run the game
My big complaint in the vast majority of mmorpg's that have come out is the generic toon system... a warrior is a warrior with very minor differnances from every other warrior out there... the same is true about every class one is just as good as the other and the only thing there capable of doing is filling a spiffic roll... im sorry but my toon isnt the same as joe schmo down the streets is... there should be a veriatiy.. give us back control of where we put our atribute points so that we can make our toons differnt from each other... if you did that you would triple the replayabilty of every mmorpg out there.. you have people that like to play casters.. give them control of there stats so that they can make multple casters differnt ways... or warriors .. or clerics... the class dont matter as long as people have the option to make them differnt and stand out... you will find alot of people are rerolling just to improve something they like about there toon.. or just to try something differnt.. but still be in the class that they injoy playing...at this point DDO is one of the few mmorpg's out that that allow this, i am not saying it is the only one... you will also find that in DDO your name or guild tend to get reconized more then the class,, because a warrior is not just a warrior,, and you acually have to think and plan your toon to reach the result you want out of it.. and hey thats 1/2 the fun the pride you take from your toon being YOURs and not the same as every other joe shmo