Frankly, I think in early going many nonroleplayers pick roleplaying servers just randomly. I live in Richmond, VA, and downtown's Main Street is one way. You'd be surprised how often a car is going the wrong way despite all the signs. And this a real life driver on a real life street potentially putting his real life in jeopardy. Gamers aren't always even that alert. And, generally, most players know that RP server rules are never enforced so they don't care too much.
Some definitely look for RP servers for the mature base of players there, whether it's an official or unofficial server, but not all by a longshot. There are also a few bottomfeeders who'll head to RP servers just because they assume RPers can't compete and they'll dominate or be able to grief with aplomb.
Over time on unofficial servers most folks filter out who didn't really want to be there and more folks filter in who discover it. There's a do-it-yourself mentality in these communities that lends itself to both tolerance and longevity. Official servers seem to crash and burn as bitter disappointment in the developers on high and their failure to enforce rules sets in. These places tend to get depressing and weaker as time goes on.
I will say this again. I believe that if a game is designed right, people will unknowingly roelplay. I have seen it in games like Planetside and EvE. The very game seems to allow people to just be themselves pretty much and the game seems to create an atmosphere where people start to act and behave a certain way while playing and so do how they talk when in game. The players start to create a game lingo and behaviors that is just part of the game and that to me is the best form of roleplay.
In games like Vanguard or Lord of the Rings or WoW there is no real game mechanics in place to cause people to behave or to talk a certain way. Only those that wish to really do try to roleplay. Like how you greet someone or say goodbye and what not. I do believe though that if these games added more fluff type RP game mechanics and did some other fine tuning to the game in what people can do and how they do it - you'd see more people roleplaying and they would just think it was part of the game.
Sanya did a good job with this article - though I think it was made to take the sting out of Dana's. That's OK though. Your's is the article we should have gotten in the first place.
I will say this again. I believe that if a game is designed right, people will unknowingly roelplay.
You are incorrect in this generalization. There are some people who will always want to make it more of a game and less of a world.
The guy who wants to name his character "Bloodelfpally" will not press "Random Name" and pick a world appropriate name, so unless you force him to have no choice other than pre-selected names he will pick something anachronistic like a hybrid of his class/race.
He named his character Bloodelfpally because every version of Sephiroth he tried, even S3ph1r0th was taken.
If they accidentally think like their character would, it would be more an exception to the rule. If they were playing a Human Paladin of Light, Ninja looting and Kill-stealing is just as probable as if they were a darker version of paladin.
Unless you hamstring the freedom they have to choose their actions and what they say, you cannot convince that type of player to think and do what their character would do.
The trick/goal should be to satisfy those players with a place to be "Turdpumper99" and grind while they talk about Chuck Norris, without irritating someone who wants to feel like they are part of the world and that the people around them are part of the world and who want to do and say what their character would do rather than try to somehow design a game that would force players to take certain actions only.
I don't like ninja looters, I don't like l33t speek, I don't like grinding.
However, they are plunking down their money to pay and entitled to play that "way". The best analogy I have is rather than convince everyone never to smoke, is to just let smokers have a place to enjoy their choice.
I think the idea of requirements for an RP server are awesome, but I also don't think that everyone should be forced to accept them.
I think that in addition to a vanilla RP server, if they ALSO made a "Non-Twink" RP server, where with a few simple rules about what items could be equipped, what kind of enchants could be applied and how much gold you could carry, they could cut down on a lot of twinking, that would also be an awesome choice. That Non-Twink server would require the players to all pretty much earn their own loot and have enchants that are reasonable for their level, and they could only participate in a PVP league for non-twink servers. Sure, they'd have less people in the que to play, but I think that aside from the name L3g0las, what probably ruins my fun most of all, is the 19s BG where its two kinds of players. The endless pvper who enjoys shooting fish in a barrel with his high powered one-shot kill and the rest of us who accidentally tried to enjoy the pvp battle at 19.
I am speaking about WoW specifically there, but it could be done in other games as well. WoW just has the more obvious Twink problem than any other game I've personally ever played. If you want to twink, fine..plenty of servers for it. But just give me one place, where I am facing people where its about skill, not his +100 HP enchanted hat.
I will say this again. I believe that if a game is designed right, people will unknowingly roelplay.
You are incorrect in this generalization. There are some people who will always want to make it more of a game and less of a world.
The guy who wants to name his character "Bloodelfpally" will not press "Random Name" and pick a world appropriate name, so unless you force him to have no choice other than pre-selected names he will pick something anachronistic like a hybrid of his class/race.
He named his character Bloodelfpally because every version of Sephiroth he tried, even S3ph1r0th was taken.
If they accidentally think like their character would, it would be more an exception to the rule. If they were playing a Human Paladin of Light, Ninja looting and Kill-stealing is just as probable as if they were a darker version of paladin.
Unless you hamstring the freedom they have to choose their actions and what they say, you cannot convince that type of player to think and do what their character would do.
The trick/goal should be to satisfy those players with a place to be "Turdpumper99" and grind while they talk about Chuck Norris, without irritating someone who wants to feel like they are part of the world and that the people around them are part of the world and who want to do and say what their character would do rather than try to somehow design a game that would force players to take certain actions only.
I don't like ninja looters, I don't like l33t speek, I don't like grinding.
However, they are plunking down their money to pay and entitled to play that "way". The best analogy I have is rather than convince everyone never to smoke, is to just let smokers have a place to enjoy their choice.
You missed the whole point of my post didn't you. As for what you are talking about. See if they tools were in place and the game was designd right I should be able to put such players on an ignore list and I never see them(their character, their chat) and we should not even be able to interact with one another on the same server. Right now all we can do for the most part is just ignore a certain users chat. I am talking about the abilityto totally ignore a character.
Along with other such tools and fluff incooperated into a game a game can be designed where people will roleplay and not even know they are doing it. Just play Planetside...you'll know what I mean.
SanyaDirector of Community Undead LabsMemberUncommonPosts: 50
I realize that no one actually reads threads after they go past five pages, but if anyone who already posted happens to see this, I have a couple notes:
- There is room to disagree on the best implementation of a roleplay server for a mass market MMO. I don't claim to have the One True Way. But I have a column to write every week. Dana is always, ALWAYS, looking for people who can write. There's an application link up there. Apply.
- Someone upthread pointed out that I'm not talking about Mom and Pop games, here. I think what I laid out is entirely doable for a company working with thirty million dollars. The t-shirt budget is higher than the annual salary for an in-game event coordinator. The OFFICE SNACK BUDGET is higher than the cost of paying three "contractors" a few hundred bucks a month. And half of you have pointed out that most of my must-have features already exist.
- Speaking of already existing, someone said that no modern MMO would have hand-approval for names. You are quite wrong in that respect, sir. Free Realms with their four million registered users is doing it. You spin three wheels to create a name - all of the combinations possible with the wheels are acceptable. If you want to use your own name, you submit it for approval... and in the meantime, you will use a name you create with the three spinning wheels. If they can do it with four million users, believe me, anyone can.
- No edits were made to my article after seeing the reaction to Dana's - I didn't even SEE the reaction to Dana's until he mentioned it to me this AM. My eyeballs are still bleeding.
- Yes, LOTRO's chat system is one of the best out there, but I am greedy and want even more flexibility, hence my IRC comment.
- When I say "scripted" in RP terms, I don't mean two people reciting pre-written lines. But there is usually an outline of sorts for the major events. To name just one example, I remember a DAOC storyline where a female character was kidnapped, and her clan declared war in order to get her back, with her in-game fiance leading the charge. The person playing the kidnap victim knew, in advance, that she was going to be kidnapped, and she furthermore knew she was going to stay in a particular keep unless her clan ransomed her or won the fight. I mean, if she hadn't agreed in advance, well, you can't really kidnap people in an MMO. And in DAOC there are a dozen ways to avoid being trapped in one place. Finally, her primary kidnapper rained abuse on her, but because it was scripted in advance that he would abuse her, she didn't take it personally. It was roleplay, not cruelty.
Sanya M. Weathers Director of Community Undead Labs
- Speaking of already existing, someone said that no modern MMO would have hand-approval for names. You are quite wrong in that respect, sir. Free Realms with their four million registered users is doing it. You spin three wheels to create a name - all of the combinations possible with the wheels are acceptable. If you want to use your own name, you submit it for approval... and in the meantime, you will use a name you create with the three spinning wheels. If they can do it with four million users, believe me, anyone can.
I'd really like to find out more about this. What's the backlog like? How alert are the screeners, really? Anyone playing Free Realms know if this would work in the, presumably, somewhat more exacting and nitpicky universe of roleplaying? Is it effective?
- Speaking of already existing, someone said that no modern MMO would have hand-approval for names. You are quite wrong in that respect, sir. Free Realms with their four million registered users is doing it. You spin three wheels to create a name - all of the combinations possible with the wheels are acceptable. If you want to use your own name, you submit it for approval... and in the meantime, you will use a name you create with the three spinning wheels. If they can do it with four million users, believe me, anyone can.
I'd really like to find out more about this. What's the backlog like? How alert are the screeners, really? Anyone playing Free Realms know if this would work in the, presumably, somewhat more exacting and nitpicky universe of roleplaying? Is it effective?
If it does work well that's definitely good news.
It all depends on the people you have doing it and how seriously they take their jobs. You can't create expectations from the employees of one company and how well they do a similiar job to employees at another. The "X" factor of different human beings makes it impossible. The one thing you can see is that it can be done. It may take some experimenting to get a smooth system down for it and to shuffle the right enthusiastic people into the role, but it can be done and it doesn't break a company monetarily (like some have hinted at in this thread).
You know just as well as I do that there are many people who are going to look at your suggested list and not take it as a suggested list, but instead a "mandatory declaration" of the only way to do RP servers. They have trouble with seeing that it is a suggestion of what someone thinks would be a good way to do it. A way that would obviously be open to necessary adjustments (once implemented and feedback rolls in) in order to make it work. And instead of making suggestions of ways to advance it, they comdemn.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
The problem is, RP cannot be enforced. The banhammers just can't come out when someone says 'lol'. To me, a roleplay server is just a flag. It's a flag saying 'If you're looking for roleplayers, your best chances of finding them are here'. To a roleplayer as myself, that's great. Whatever I can do to find a community of like-minded players is wonderful. What it means to the rest of the community is, as defined through some conversations with non-roleplayers in roleplay servers, that roleplay servers are where you go to get away from the d00ds, the freaks, and the creeps and play with some (reasonably) mature people.
It would be interesi ing if they could create a mod that helped with the actual RP. Sure no one really read the whole rules of an rp server and if they do either dont care, or think it lame. I personally am a role player. I am a ratehr relaxed one, and i played on a regular server first then moved with a few to an rp server on WoW.
However I digress... It would be interesing to give a second window after you finish deciding race, appearance, and class. Give us a window that allows us to give an age, a description and maybe even some background. This could then be viewed by those in game by right clicking on the portrait. Perhaps even a difference in flags for a character, no rp, new to rp, little rp, rp only, and ooc in pm.
I would love to see something like this, then I could feel better about going back to WoW. Currently however I feel that the rp servers are over run by non-rpers. While I agree some rpers need people to give them a story, I feel that a character can grow just by meeting and teaming up with others. I guess I'm not a story driven character all the time.
If there is an rp guild out there that is having a good time I would love to hear about it, and maybe even get back in on that
Thanks for a more objective article (and no insults) than of Mr. Massey's.
While there is room for disagreements, the article does provide a good start in the right direction.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Although the list of RP server "requirements" would possibly be the ideal, for an RP server to work does not require that degree of support.
The biggest problem is that MMORPG companies do not publish explicit rules on what are/are not enforcable rules for the servers AND that they do not take said violations as seriously as other ToS violations.
The rules don't have to cover every form of chat in every possible class of distinction. They do need to spell out naming conventions, which public channels prohibit out of character chat, which public channels prohibit in character chat and if any of those public channels will allow a combination of the two with ((brackets)) delineating OOC. They also need to spell out examples of what is and is not harassment or interference with role play; and what kinds of disputes they will not consider as legitimate complaints (with threats of suspensions or server bans for those who continually file prohibited complaints)..
Once the rules are clearly spelled out, they need to be enforced the same way restrictions on hate speech, explicit talk and verbal harrassment are enforced.
Sure, the CSR load will be heavier to begin with, as some people deliberately test the limits of the system, but if a track record of clear rules and swift/fair enforcement are established, then the number of tickets will fall significantly.
The reason why enforcement on most existing RP servers is so draining is precisely because the rules are not clear enough and trouble makers or rule nazis can get away with a lot while intentionally antagonizing other players.
The only distinction between breaking RP server rules and general ToS would be that instead of a ban from the game for serious or repeated infractions, your account would be banned from the RP servers.
This is the first Sanya article that I read which happened to be well though out and decently written. Hopefully she sticks to this style of writing as opposed to the try and be cool with the same cliches that will make all the forum posters cheer type of writing.
It is impossible to have a successful RP server, and the article did cover that, it is cost innefective.
Also what the article said that I was going to mention, it's best just for an indie game to create an MORPG, that is a large open world with servers that the players host just like they would an FPS. That way whoever sets up a server can determine the rules and govern the users. All different people who want different level or roleplays and quests can find a server they like and play there. But I don't see that being profitable enough for any company to do. Since it would take as much work as making an MMO and you woud only get a fraction of normal MMO purchase numbers.
I always figured servers marked as [RP] would be the same as the other servers, except that people there would be more immersed and more into their character, and it would be pretty laid back when it comes to "Oh yeah! Sure ill do TK with LOLOL i have to talk to my mom first for a second tho kthx!". Region chat would be active, yet quieter. But overall people are much nicer!
The image for this article on the mmorpg.com homepage is epic.
It is. But you know what's funny also? I betcha rabid 'hardcore' pvpers look just like those kids (and the rest of us), only sans naff green tabards and latex dildos.
i used to rp a klingon mostly lawful sometimes chaotic evil BELF mage on a wow pvp server. the hardcore RP'ers took offense and tried to say i was doing it wrong. i lol'ed and then hunted them down, all while RPing my character faithfully. i even made a little story about it. they whined up a storm so i hunted them down some more, adding to my toon's little story. it was awesome.
Extremly good read! You have really sat down and thought this one through. I am not really a huge RPer today... Mostly because I was a really really good RPer in the 80s and a really good RPer in the Vampire chat rooms of the 90s and... Well, there is a loooooong way down qualitywise between those days the the extremly juvenile cybering of MMO RP servers today. And I agree with your conclusion why. It is extremly difficult to create the tools for any quality RP in an MMO today. Extremly difficult codewise and extremly expensive personellwise. It is a hard task. Last time I can really say I did any real RP in an MMO, was in Ultima Online, first month in Europe. I was a tailor of some renown. I was greeted into the world by a GM, waiting for me as I entered the world, chatting a bit, answering a few questions, then sending me on my way. I really felt it was a real RP universe. So I never left the tailor shop. I stood there, making my outfits, talking to the costumers entering.. making 3-4 suits or robes in different colors to each one so they could try out the different fashions.... then at lunch, I told them I had lunch, and we walked to the tavern and sat down ot eat. Not once did people fall out of character, and it was amazing to see. So long ago now.
Since then.... No GMs, no real story except a short prolouge (AO had a few GM run events which usually involved tons of attacking creatures. That was not Roleplay, that was LAGWAR) And as you say, the resources to create a real RP server is too costly. So... the years go by, peoples expectations go down and we reach today, with a few sad cyberers in a cellar somewhere, a few normal gamers that think changing "you" to "thou" means Roleplay, and a ton of 11 year olds trying to disturb the sad remnants of a glorious time, all trying to survive in a quite depressing universe.
It was really fun to read this column. Excellent job. Brings me back tot he good old days of mmorpg.com. Hope to see more from you soon.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
I'm about as hardcore a roleplayer as one's likely to meet in MMOdom. My background includes tabletop going back to the white box, and if you know what I'm talking about you may be a hardcore roleplayer too, and up into the present on MMOs. MMOs do have a bad rap for poor quality roleplaying and some of that's deserved but there are islands of very talented people around out there. When I went to visit a MUSH, a text-based roleplay heavy variety of MUD, and I told someone I'd been roleplaying on MMOs they said, "I'm sorry." And I get that. Between ERPers and anti-roleplayers with some distorted, from my perspective, idea of what roleplaying is about things can look iffy.
But there are folks out there who do spin old-school style sagas. There are improv troupes around that can do much more than the usual tavern small talk and flirting. You've got people who can build adventures in SWG using Storyteller props and their own imaginations that rival anything I've seen in tabletop RP. On occasion you'll even find folks who can craft memorable characters and express themselves well enough to rival even haughty MUSH roleplayers.
These folks may not be the majority of those who call themselves roleplayers out there but keep in mind where we are developmentally. It took a decade or or two, depending on how you see things, for roleplaying in tabletop to evolve from dungeon ransacking and power-levelling to systems more focused on realism, setting and character development.
Folks just have to decide they're bored of the same old, same old, and get interested in new ways of doing things.
I love the list. I'd pay a higher subscription fee happily to support the additional resources needed. I imagine there would be enough interest for an actual RP server that a slightly higher sub fee would more than pay for the extra manpower. I'd even consider playing a game I otherwise wouldn't be interested in if it had an actual enforced and supported RP server.
The answer is already there, and was provided by the author.
Yes, there is a much greater investment on the part of the developer/publisher in roleplaying servers. And since there's no such thing as a free lunch, the answer is simply this: Charge players a substantial fee for access to a roleplay server, perhaps even with a forfeitable security deposit as surety of good behavior. Security deposit waived if you are vouched for by someone already in the game (but then it's THEIR deposit and ability to vouch on the line, at least if there's a problem during a probationary period), and refunded after a period of no disciplinary action. It should be trivial for a contract lawyer to draft a supplemental EULA/TOS contract to make it enforceable.
This would have the effect of:
providing the needed funds to pay for all that extra staff
filter out the "tourists" and people playing on Mommy's credit card
filtering out the griefers and RP-harassers, as they would suddenly have something serious to lose
keeping the RP server population at a managable size
Elitist? Hell yes. I have no problem with elitism at all, when it's based upon positive behavior. We don't ban Ferraris just because most people can only afford a Honda. Not yet, anyway.
I would love to see a truly premium MMORPG which charged a premium price, gave premium customer service (including a service level agreement regarding ticket response time, login queue avoidance and server uptime) and demanded premium standards of good behavior from their player-base. Even if it was a hundred dollars a month, that's still an astonishing bargain in terms of entertainment hours-per-dollar. Could everyone afford it? No. So what? MMORPGs are not an entitlement, nor are their prices subject to regulation by anything other than market acceptance.
Whether the entire game was "premium" or just a server subset is another matter. Everquest was toying with that at one point... does anyone here have any feedback on how that worked, and what could be improved?
People who are being jerks know very well that they are being jerks, and should be dealt with on that basis.
Gemstone IV, a text based mmorpg (feel free to debate MUD over mmorpg with a brick wall if you'd like) STILL charges approx $40 a month for it's platinum server which provides all of what you just suggested. Subscriptions are on the decline, but that server has been in existance for near a decade. It originally boasted a sub fee of $79.99 a month, and unless I'm mistaken, that was when its subscriptions were at one of its peaks.
Now this is where you can scream "MY GOD you'd have to be a moron to pay that for text!"
Regardless of one's opinion on the mental state of such subscribers, it does point out there IS a market, and people (mostly adults in control of their own finances) will pay very good money for very good service.
Hello. I am not a hardcore RPer, but I have some ideas about how a game could improve an RPer experience. In fact, these are just specific design practices. I didn't read all the posts in the thread, but i saw some messages that reasonably match my point.
One of the most anti-RP things are those ridiculous names. Well, i personally think names have too much importance in MMOGs as they are the single way to reliably differentiate characters. In that respect, my opinion is that names should not be floating over the character's head. If I want to know a character's name, should I ask for it. In order to solve the problem of recognition, I can put a label (of my own choice) on that character. Whenever I see that one, I'll see that label floating above his head. It represents the memory of my character and not the name of my friend. That alone opens a lot of RP possibilities (e.g. the "chaotic" characters could tell different names for different characters).
Another thing I consider a problem in MMOGs is that I have access to too much game information. I precisely know how good I am and how good things are. I have never seen any MMOGs that have a good model of the perceptions of the characters.
About the spam, that isn't a problem if there is some cost to speak (e.g. limited breath) and a limited span for the character's voice. Communication channels don't seem good for RP at all to me.
Last, I consider the MMOGs too much unrealistic to compel me to RP. I don't mean better graphics and sound (of course that helps), but simple things like being able to put a looted object in your backpack while you are holding a shield and a sword, or finding a gold coin inside a dead rat. These things disrupt the RP, IMO.
All in all, I'd like to see an MMOG that is more like a character simulator.
Comments
Frankly, I think in early going many nonroleplayers pick roleplaying servers just randomly. I live in Richmond, VA, and downtown's Main Street is one way. You'd be surprised how often a car is going the wrong way despite all the signs. And this a real life driver on a real life street potentially putting his real life in jeopardy. Gamers aren't always even that alert. And, generally, most players know that RP server rules are never enforced so they don't care too much.
Some definitely look for RP servers for the mature base of players there, whether it's an official or unofficial server, but not all by a longshot. There are also a few bottomfeeders who'll head to RP servers just because they assume RPers can't compete and they'll dominate or be able to grief with aplomb.
Over time on unofficial servers most folks filter out who didn't really want to be there and more folks filter in who discover it. There's a do-it-yourself mentality in these communities that lends itself to both tolerance and longevity. Official servers seem to crash and burn as bitter disappointment in the developers on high and their failure to enforce rules sets in. These places tend to get depressing and weaker as time goes on.
Always notice what you notice.
Sanya,
Great article.
You officially win "Dana Massey". You may do with him what you will.
I will say this again. I believe that if a game is designed right, people will unknowingly roelplay. I have seen it in games like Planetside and EvE. The very game seems to allow people to just be themselves pretty much and the game seems to create an atmosphere where people start to act and behave a certain way while playing and so do how they talk when in game. The players start to create a game lingo and behaviors that is just part of the game and that to me is the best form of roleplay.
In games like Vanguard or Lord of the Rings or WoW there is no real game mechanics in place to cause people to behave or to talk a certain way. Only those that wish to really do try to roleplay. Like how you greet someone or say goodbye and what not. I do believe though that if these games added more fluff type RP game mechanics and did some other fine tuning to the game in what people can do and how they do it - you'd see more people roleplaying and they would just think it was part of the game.
Sanya did a good job with this article - though I think it was made to take the sting out of Dana's. That's OK though. Your's is the article we should have gotten in the first place.
You are incorrect in this generalization. There are some people who will always want to make it more of a game and less of a world.
The guy who wants to name his character "Bloodelfpally" will not press "Random Name" and pick a world appropriate name, so unless you force him to have no choice other than pre-selected names he will pick something anachronistic like a hybrid of his class/race.
He named his character Bloodelfpally because every version of Sephiroth he tried, even S3ph1r0th was taken.
If they accidentally think like their character would, it would be more an exception to the rule. If they were playing a Human Paladin of Light, Ninja looting and Kill-stealing is just as probable as if they were a darker version of paladin.
Unless you hamstring the freedom they have to choose their actions and what they say, you cannot convince that type of player to think and do what their character would do.
The trick/goal should be to satisfy those players with a place to be "Turdpumper99" and grind while they talk about Chuck Norris, without irritating someone who wants to feel like they are part of the world and that the people around them are part of the world and who want to do and say what their character would do rather than try to somehow design a game that would force players to take certain actions only.
I don't like ninja looters, I don't like l33t speek, I don't like grinding.
However, they are plunking down their money to pay and entitled to play that "way". The best analogy I have is rather than convince everyone never to smoke, is to just let smokers have a place to enjoy their choice.
I think the idea of requirements for an RP server are awesome, but I also don't think that everyone should be forced to accept them.
I think that in addition to a vanilla RP server, if they ALSO made a "Non-Twink" RP server, where with a few simple rules about what items could be equipped, what kind of enchants could be applied and how much gold you could carry, they could cut down on a lot of twinking, that would also be an awesome choice. That Non-Twink server would require the players to all pretty much earn their own loot and have enchants that are reasonable for their level, and they could only participate in a PVP league for non-twink servers. Sure, they'd have less people in the que to play, but I think that aside from the name L3g0las, what probably ruins my fun most of all, is the 19s BG where its two kinds of players. The endless pvper who enjoys shooting fish in a barrel with his high powered one-shot kill and the rest of us who accidentally tried to enjoy the pvp battle at 19.
I am speaking about WoW specifically there, but it could be done in other games as well. WoW just has the more obvious Twink problem than any other game I've personally ever played. If you want to twink, fine..plenty of servers for it. But just give me one place, where I am facing people where its about skill, not his +100 HP enchanted hat.
You are incorrect in this generalization. There are some people who will always want to make it more of a game and less of a world.
The guy who wants to name his character "Bloodelfpally" will not press "Random Name" and pick a world appropriate name, so unless you force him to have no choice other than pre-selected names he will pick something anachronistic like a hybrid of his class/race.
He named his character Bloodelfpally because every version of Sephiroth he tried, even S3ph1r0th was taken.
If they accidentally think like their character would, it would be more an exception to the rule. If they were playing a Human Paladin of Light, Ninja looting and Kill-stealing is just as probable as if they were a darker version of paladin.
Unless you hamstring the freedom they have to choose their actions and what they say, you cannot convince that type of player to think and do what their character would do.
The trick/goal should be to satisfy those players with a place to be "Turdpumper99" and grind while they talk about Chuck Norris, without irritating someone who wants to feel like they are part of the world and that the people around them are part of the world and who want to do and say what their character would do rather than try to somehow design a game that would force players to take certain actions only.
I don't like ninja looters, I don't like l33t speek, I don't like grinding.
However, they are plunking down their money to pay and entitled to play that "way". The best analogy I have is rather than convince everyone never to smoke, is to just let smokers have a place to enjoy their choice.
You missed the whole point of my post didn't you. As for what you are talking about. See if they tools were in place and the game was designd right I should be able to put such players on an ignore list and I never see them(their character, their chat) and we should not even be able to interact with one another on the same server. Right now all we can do for the most part is just ignore a certain users chat. I am talking about the abilityto totally ignore a character.
Along with other such tools and fluff incooperated into a game a game can be designed where people will roleplay and not even know they are doing it. Just play Planetside...you'll know what I mean.
I realize that no one actually reads threads after they go past five pages, but if anyone who already posted happens to see this, I have a couple notes:
- There is room to disagree on the best implementation of a roleplay server for a mass market MMO. I don't claim to have the One True Way. But I have a column to write every week. Dana is always, ALWAYS, looking for people who can write. There's an application link up there. Apply.
- Someone upthread pointed out that I'm not talking about Mom and Pop games, here. I think what I laid out is entirely doable for a company working with thirty million dollars. The t-shirt budget is higher than the annual salary for an in-game event coordinator. The OFFICE SNACK BUDGET is higher than the cost of paying three "contractors" a few hundred bucks a month. And half of you have pointed out that most of my must-have features already exist.
- Speaking of already existing, someone said that no modern MMO would have hand-approval for names. You are quite wrong in that respect, sir. Free Realms with their four million registered users is doing it. You spin three wheels to create a name - all of the combinations possible with the wheels are acceptable. If you want to use your own name, you submit it for approval... and in the meantime, you will use a name you create with the three spinning wheels. If they can do it with four million users, believe me, anyone can.
- No edits were made to my article after seeing the reaction to Dana's - I didn't even SEE the reaction to Dana's until he mentioned it to me this AM. My eyeballs are still bleeding.
- Yes, LOTRO's chat system is one of the best out there, but I am greedy and want even more flexibility, hence my IRC comment.
- When I say "scripted" in RP terms, I don't mean two people reciting pre-written lines. But there is usually an outline of sorts for the major events. To name just one example, I remember a DAOC storyline where a female character was kidnapped, and her clan declared war in order to get her back, with her in-game fiance leading the charge. The person playing the kidnap victim knew, in advance, that she was going to be kidnapped, and she furthermore knew she was going to stay in a particular keep unless her clan ransomed her or won the fight. I mean, if she hadn't agreed in advance, well, you can't really kidnap people in an MMO. And in DAOC there are a dozen ways to avoid being trapped in one place. Finally, her primary kidnapper rained abuse on her, but because it was scripted in advance that he would abuse her, she didn't take it personally. It was roleplay, not cruelty.
Sanya M. Weathers
Director of Community
Undead Labs
I'd really like to find out more about this. What's the backlog like? How alert are the screeners, really? Anyone playing Free Realms know if this would work in the, presumably, somewhat more exacting and nitpicky universe of roleplaying? Is it effective?
If it does work well that's definitely good news.
Always notice what you notice.
I'd really like to find out more about this. What's the backlog like? How alert are the screeners, really? Anyone playing Free Realms know if this would work in the, presumably, somewhat more exacting and nitpicky universe of roleplaying? Is it effective?
If it does work well that's definitely good news.
It all depends on the people you have doing it and how seriously they take their jobs. You can't create expectations from the employees of one company and how well they do a similiar job to employees at another. The "X" factor of different human beings makes it impossible. The one thing you can see is that it can be done. It may take some experimenting to get a smooth system down for it and to shuffle the right enthusiastic people into the role, but it can be done and it doesn't break a company monetarily (like some have hinted at in this thread).
@Sanya.
You know just as well as I do that there are many people who are going to look at your suggested list and not take it as a suggested list, but instead a "mandatory declaration" of the only way to do RP servers. They have trouble with seeing that it is a suggestion of what someone thinks would be a good way to do it. A way that would obviously be open to necessary adjustments (once implemented and feedback rolls in) in order to make it work. And instead of making suggestions of ways to advance it, they comdemn.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
The problem is, RP cannot be enforced. The banhammers just can't come out when someone says 'lol'. To me, a roleplay server is just a flag. It's a flag saying 'If you're looking for roleplayers, your best chances of finding them are here'. To a roleplayer as myself, that's great. Whatever I can do to find a community of like-minded players is wonderful. What it means to the rest of the community is, as defined through some conversations with non-roleplayers in roleplay servers, that roleplay servers are where you go to get away from the d00ds, the freaks, and the creeps and play with some (reasonably) mature people.
It would be interesi ing if they could create a mod that helped with the actual RP. Sure no one really read the whole rules of an rp server and if they do either dont care, or think it lame. I personally am a role player. I am a ratehr relaxed one, and i played on a regular server first then moved with a few to an rp server on WoW.
However I digress... It would be interesing to give a second window after you finish deciding race, appearance, and class. Give us a window that allows us to give an age, a description and maybe even some background. This could then be viewed by those in game by right clicking on the portrait. Perhaps even a difference in flags for a character, no rp, new to rp, little rp, rp only, and ooc in pm.
I would love to see something like this, then I could feel better about going back to WoW. Currently however I feel that the rp servers are over run by non-rpers. While I agree some rpers need people to give them a story, I feel that a character can grow just by meeting and teaming up with others. I guess I'm not a story driven character all the time.
If there is an rp guild out there that is having a good time I would love to hear about it, and maybe even get back in on that
Thanks for a more objective article (and no insults) than of Mr. Massey's.
While there is room for disagreements, the article does provide a good start in the right direction.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Much better article than Dana's.
Although the list of RP server "requirements" would possibly be the ideal, for an RP server to work does not require that degree of support.
The biggest problem is that MMORPG companies do not publish explicit rules on what are/are not enforcable rules for the servers AND that they do not take said violations as seriously as other ToS violations.
The rules don't have to cover every form of chat in every possible class of distinction. They do need to spell out naming conventions, which public channels prohibit out of character chat, which public channels prohibit in character chat and if any of those public channels will allow a combination of the two with ((brackets)) delineating OOC. They also need to spell out examples of what is and is not harassment or interference with role play; and what kinds of disputes they will not consider as legitimate complaints (with threats of suspensions or server bans for those who continually file prohibited complaints)..
Once the rules are clearly spelled out, they need to be enforced the same way restrictions on hate speech, explicit talk and verbal harrassment are enforced.
Sure, the CSR load will be heavier to begin with, as some people deliberately test the limits of the system, but if a track record of clear rules and swift/fair enforcement are established, then the number of tickets will fall significantly.
The reason why enforcement on most existing RP servers is so draining is precisely because the rules are not clear enough and trouble makers or rule nazis can get away with a lot while intentionally antagonizing other players.
The only distinction between breaking RP server rules and general ToS would be that instead of a ban from the game for serious or repeated infractions, your account would be banned from the RP servers.
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This is the first Sanya article that I read which happened to be well though out and decently written. Hopefully she sticks to this style of writing as opposed to the try and be cool with the same cliches that will make all the forum posters cheer type of writing.
It is impossible to have a successful RP server, and the article did cover that, it is cost innefective.
Also what the article said that I was going to mention, it's best just for an indie game to create an MORPG, that is a large open world with servers that the players host just like they would an FPS. That way whoever sets up a server can determine the rules and govern the users. All different people who want different level or roleplays and quests can find a server they like and play there. But I don't see that being profitable enough for any company to do. Since it would take as much work as making an MMO and you woud only get a fraction of normal MMO purchase numbers.
I always figured servers marked as [RP] would be the same as the other servers, except that people there would be more immersed and more into their character, and it would be pretty laid back when it comes to "Oh yeah! Sure ill do TK with LOLOL i have to talk to my mom first for a second tho kthx!". Region chat would be active, yet quieter. But overall people are much nicer!
The image for this article on the mmorpg.com homepage is epic.
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It is. But you know what's funny also? I betcha rabid 'hardcore' pvpers look just like those kids (and the rest of us), only sans naff green tabards and latex dildos.
i used to rp a klingon mostly lawful sometimes chaotic evil BELF mage on a wow pvp server. the hardcore RP'ers took offense and tried to say i was doing it wrong. i lol'ed and then hunted them down, all while RPing my character faithfully. i even made a little story about it. they whined up a storm so i hunted them down some more, adding to my toon's little story. it was awesome.
KERPLAH!
Extremly good read! You have really sat down and thought this one through. I am not really a huge RPer today... Mostly because I was a really really good RPer in the 80s and a really good RPer in the Vampire chat rooms of the 90s and... Well, there is a loooooong way down qualitywise between those days the the extremly juvenile cybering of MMO RP servers today. And I agree with your conclusion why. It is extremly difficult to create the tools for any quality RP in an MMO today. Extremly difficult codewise and extremly expensive personellwise. It is a hard task. Last time I can really say I did any real RP in an MMO, was in Ultima Online, first month in Europe. I was a tailor of some renown. I was greeted into the world by a GM, waiting for me as I entered the world, chatting a bit, answering a few questions, then sending me on my way. I really felt it was a real RP universe. So I never left the tailor shop. I stood there, making my outfits, talking to the costumers entering.. making 3-4 suits or robes in different colors to each one so they could try out the different fashions.... then at lunch, I told them I had lunch, and we walked to the tavern and sat down ot eat. Not once did people fall out of character, and it was amazing to see. So long ago now.
Since then.... No GMs, no real story except a short prolouge (AO had a few GM run events which usually involved tons of attacking creatures. That was not Roleplay, that was LAGWAR) And as you say, the resources to create a real RP server is too costly. So... the years go by, peoples expectations go down and we reach today, with a few sad cyberers in a cellar somewhere, a few normal gamers that think changing "you" to "thou" means Roleplay, and a ton of 11 year olds trying to disturb the sad remnants of a glorious time, all trying to survive in a quite depressing universe.
It was really fun to read this column. Excellent job. Brings me back tot he good old days of mmorpg.com. Hope to see more from you soon.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
I'm about as hardcore a roleplayer as one's likely to meet in MMOdom. My background includes tabletop going back to the white box, and if you know what I'm talking about you may be a hardcore roleplayer too, and up into the present on MMOs. MMOs do have a bad rap for poor quality roleplaying and some of that's deserved but there are islands of very talented people around out there. When I went to visit a MUSH, a text-based roleplay heavy variety of MUD, and I told someone I'd been roleplaying on MMOs they said, "I'm sorry." And I get that. Between ERPers and anti-roleplayers with some distorted, from my perspective, idea of what roleplaying is about things can look iffy.
But there are folks out there who do spin old-school style sagas. There are improv troupes around that can do much more than the usual tavern small talk and flirting. You've got people who can build adventures in SWG using Storyteller props and their own imaginations that rival anything I've seen in tabletop RP. On occasion you'll even find folks who can craft memorable characters and express themselves well enough to rival even haughty MUSH roleplayers.
These folks may not be the majority of those who call themselves roleplayers out there but keep in mind where we are developmentally. It took a decade or or two, depending on how you see things, for roleplaying in tabletop to evolve from dungeon ransacking and power-levelling to systems more focused on realism, setting and character development.
Folks just have to decide they're bored of the same old, same old, and get interested in new ways of doing things.
Always notice what you notice.
I love the list. I'd pay a higher subscription fee happily to support the additional resources needed. I imagine there would be enough interest for an actual RP server that a slightly higher sub fee would more than pay for the extra manpower. I'd even consider playing a game I otherwise wouldn't be interested in if it had an actual enforced and supported RP server.
The answer is already there, and was provided by the author.
Yes, there is a much greater investment on the part of the developer/publisher in roleplaying servers. And since there's no such thing as a free lunch, the answer is simply this: Charge players a substantial fee for access to a roleplay server, perhaps even with a forfeitable security deposit as surety of good behavior. Security deposit waived if you are vouched for by someone already in the game (but then it's THEIR deposit and ability to vouch on the line, at least if there's a problem during a probationary period), and refunded after a period of no disciplinary action. It should be trivial for a contract lawyer to draft a supplemental EULA/TOS contract to make it enforceable.
This would have the effect of:
Elitist? Hell yes. I have no problem with elitism at all, when it's based upon positive behavior. We don't ban Ferraris just because most people can only afford a Honda. Not yet, anyway.
I would love to see a truly premium MMORPG which charged a premium price, gave premium customer service (including a service level agreement regarding ticket response time, login queue avoidance and server uptime) and demanded premium standards of good behavior from their player-base. Even if it was a hundred dollars a month, that's still an astonishing bargain in terms of entertainment hours-per-dollar. Could everyone afford it? No. So what? MMORPGs are not an entitlement, nor are their prices subject to regulation by anything other than market acceptance.
Whether the entire game was "premium" or just a server subset is another matter. Everquest was toying with that at one point... does anyone here have any feedback on how that worked, and what could be improved?
People who are being jerks know very well that they are being jerks, and should be dealt with on that basis.
Gemstone IV, a text based mmorpg (feel free to debate MUD over mmorpg with a brick wall if you'd like) STILL charges approx $40 a month for it's platinum server which provides all of what you just suggested. Subscriptions are on the decline, but that server has been in existance for near a decade. It originally boasted a sub fee of $79.99 a month, and unless I'm mistaken, that was when its subscriptions were at one of its peaks.
Now this is where you can scream "MY GOD you'd have to be a moron to pay that for text!"
Regardless of one's opinion on the mental state of such subscribers, it does point out there IS a market, and people (mostly adults in control of their own finances) will pay very good money for very good service.
EDIT: all but deposit. they don't require that.
Hello. I am not a hardcore RPer, but I have some ideas about how a game could improve an RPer experience. In fact, these are just specific design practices. I didn't read all the posts in the thread, but i saw some messages that reasonably match my point.
One of the most anti-RP things are those ridiculous names. Well, i personally think names have too much importance in MMOGs as they are the single way to reliably differentiate characters. In that respect, my opinion is that names should not be floating over the character's head. If I want to know a character's name, should I ask for it. In order to solve the problem of recognition, I can put a label (of my own choice) on that character. Whenever I see that one, I'll see that label floating above his head. It represents the memory of my character and not the name of my friend. That alone opens a lot of RP possibilities (e.g. the "chaotic" characters could tell different names for different characters).
Another thing I consider a problem in MMOGs is that I have access to too much game information. I precisely know how good I am and how good things are. I have never seen any MMOGs that have a good model of the perceptions of the characters.
About the spam, that isn't a problem if there is some cost to speak (e.g. limited breath) and a limited span for the character's voice. Communication channels don't seem good for RP at all to me.
Last, I consider the MMOGs too much unrealistic to compel me to RP. I don't mean better graphics and sound (of course that helps), but simple things like being able to put a looted object in your backpack while you are holding a shield and a sword, or finding a gold coin inside a dead rat. These things disrupt the RP, IMO.
All in all, I'd like to see an MMOG that is more like a character simulator.