"There is a huge difference between equality with people and with gamers."
There's a huge difference in the effect is has on our everyday lives, but the same mindset is present in both forms of prejudice. That mindset says "I am superior, therefore you should be prevented from achieveing at or near my level".
Hard work, determination, and skill are left by the wayside, only to be replaced by a caste system of entitlement and intolerance.
"There is a huge difference between equality with people and with gamers." There's a huge difference in the effect is has on our everyday lives, but the same mindset is present in both forms of prejudice. That mindset says "I am superior, therefore you should be prevented from achieveing at or near my level". Hard work, determination, and skill are left by the wayside, only to be replaced by a caste system of entitlement and intolerance.
I don't think going all high and philosphical is at all required here.
They are games, and when you read the EULA and ToS and agree to play the game, and send them your money, you are in essence forking over any rights that exist to you in the real world in order to "live" online by the rules of the game.
Equality is not garaunteed nor should it be in a video game.
I'd rather my video games be capitalistic where working hard and participating in joint ventures with other hard working people gets me good rewards in comparison to some socialist who just wants Big Brother to doil out even rewards to the masses.
I'm an American, I'm used to capitalistic ideals so I'd rather not play some socialist MMO.
"I'm an American, I'm used to capitalistic ideals so I'd rather not play some socialist MMO."
This comparison is invalid since a hard working, skilled raider or soloer can easily thrive in your idealistic capitalist MMO. The same can't be said for a caste system though.
"I'm an American, I'm used to capitalistic ideals so I'd rather not play some socialist MMO." This comparison is invalid since a hard working, skilled raider or soloer can easily thrive in your idealistic capitalist MMO. The same can't be said for a caste system though.
Capitalism is based on the idea of have and have nots, just like a feudal or caste system.
You could go as far as to say that having the time and guild structure to enable you to raid is like having the means of production to be a factory owner i.e. capitalist where as the player without the time and/or guild structure doesn't own the means of production neccessary, so must simply be another cog in the machine...
Life's not fair, IMO you have to deal with it, enjoy what you have and make the best of it.
Same is true in a MMO. If you can't raid or do group content, make the best of what you can do and enjoy it or find something else you enjoy more.
Asking the rest of the world/game to change for you is unrealistic and just plain selfish IMO.
"All they'd have to do is add a solo version and a heroic solo version and they'd have everything."
This would be reasonable if one of these two conditions were met:
A. The drops/gear/equipment is the same level as that obtained via group/raid versions.
B. If not A, then the solo dungeons/instances can only be run with equipment obtained via solo play, and only drops items that can be used in solo play. That should include a seperate solo achievement system, with titles, records of solo accomplishments, etc.
"There is a huge difference between equality with people and with gamers." There's a huge difference in the effect is has on our everyday lives, but the same mindset is present in both forms of prejudice. That mindset says "I am superior, therefore you should be prevented from achieveing at or near my level". Hard work, determination, and skill are left by the wayside, only to be replaced by a caste system of entitlement and intolerance.
I don't think going all high and philosphical is at all required here.
They are games, and when you read the EULA and ToS and agree to play the game, and send them your money, you are in essence forking over any rights that exist to you in the real world in order to "live" online by the rules of the game.
Equality is not garaunteed nor should it be in a video game.
I'd rather my video games be capitalistic where working hard and participating in joint ventures with other hard working people gets me good rewards in comparison to some socialist who just wants Big Brother to doil out even rewards to the masses.
I'm an American, I'm used to capitalistic ideals so I'd rather not play some socialist MMO.
I always cosidered the soloer playstyle to be the capitalistic model and the raider playstyle to be the socialistic one.
The soloer achieves her/his goals through individual hard work and participation in the game. The raiders get theri rewards based on their participation in a collective where they give up their individual aspiration in order to benefit the whole. In a raid society rewards are given iout based on how they benefit the raid and not just on whether an individual has earned them.
As someone who was born in a communist country I definetly prefer the capitalistic soloer model.
Also eqaulity in the game is determined by the fact that we all pay the same subscription fee. As such if the devs want to get outr money they need to give us equal content.
"I'm an American, I'm used to capitalistic ideals so I'd rather not play some socialist MMO." This comparison is invalid since a hard working, skilled raider or soloer can easily thrive in your idealistic capitalist MMO. The same can't be said for a caste system though.
Capitalism is based on the idea of have and have nots, just like a feudal or caste system.
You could go as far as to say that having the time and guild structure to enable you to raid is like having the means of production to be a factory owner i.e. capitalist where as the player without the time and/or guild structure doesn't own the means of production neccessary, so must simply be another cog in the machine...
Life's not fair, IMO you have to deal with it, enjoy what you have and make the best of it.
Same is true in a MMO. If you can't raid or do group content, make the best of what you can do and enjoy it or find something else you enjoy more.
Asking the rest of the world/game to change for you is unrealistic and just plain selfish IMO.
Spot on. That is the key... Be happy with what you, yourself has earned and do not compare yourself to others. What others have or do not have has nothing to do with you or what you have. Either be happy with what you earned yourself or find something that makes you happy and you enjoy.
As in RL, Someone will always be better then you and someone will always be worst then you. that is a fact of life. The sooner you learn and accept that the happier a person you will be.
Currently the players that want solid group content (NOT RAID) are shit out of luck because the soloers are the ones the developers are listening to.... Right or wrong that is how it is.... I understand and accept this, hense I am still playing EQ.
"All they'd have to do is add a solo version and a heroic solo version and they'd have everything." This would be reasonable if one of these two conditions were met: A. The drops/gear/equipment is the same level as that obtained via group/raid versions. B. If not A, then the solo dungeons/instances can only be run with equipment obtained via solo play, and only drops items that can be used in solo play. That should include a seperate solo achievement system, with titles, records of solo accomplishments, etc.
Soloers should not get the same rewards as groupers. Not because grouping is harder or anything thing like that... For the simple fact that it takes more effort to complete group content. Generally speaking.
Soloers are like bowlers, they rely on themselfs to compete.... Groupers are like team sports, it not only matters about your personal skills but how well your skills mix with your team mates.
Soloers should have content and groups should have content... Rewards should be based on risk, the more risk the more rewards, in a team enviroment, there is generally more risk involved hense they should get better rewards.
"Capitalism is based on the idea of have and have nots, just like a feudal or caste system."
American capitalism is superior to the old worlds caste sytems because people know that if they study and work hard, they can potentially reach the highest levels of society. Those in the old worlds systems may look down upon them as the new rich, but that doesn't take away the fact that they have been supplanted as the true power brokers in this world.
"Life's not fair, IMO you have to deal with it,..."
I am, by complaining, just like those people who were at the back of the bus.
"Currently the players that want solid group content (NOT RAID) are shit out of luck because the soloers are the ones the developers are listening to.... Right or wrong that is how it is.... I understand and accept this, hense I am still playing EQ."
The current crop of Devs were for the most part EQ raiders, which is why the end game in MMO's rewards the raiding playstyle disproportionately. It's human nature of course to create something that resonates towards your own neeeds, but it inevitably leaves solo players orphaned in this genre.
Why do soloers NEED the same level of gear as the raid gear?
I mean, do solo mobs hit for 15k per hit and require you to be healed for 8k HPS or you are toast?
No, IMO solo players and small group don't need the same quality of gear because the content isn't as demanding in a min/max standpoint as the raider.
Would the raid gear help the solo player be even better? Sure it does, trust me I know I'm full T8-T8.5 in WoW, but is it NEEDED? No, of course it's not.
Actually to me having the raid gear makes soloing and small group stuff LESS fun becuase it is so easy and trivial with the really high level of gear.
Dungeons were more fun when you actually had to work in them, instead of just having such good gear you can AoE zerg through everything.
IMO solo and small group should be happy they don't have raid gear cause it makes the game more challenging and thusly more interesting.
"Soloers should not get the same rewards as groupers"
In option B they don't get the same rewards.
"Soloers are like bowlers, they rely on themselfs to compete.... Groupers are like team sports, it not only matters about your personal skills but how well your skills mix with your team mates."
So a marathon runner is less of an athelete that a designated hitter?
"in a team enviroment, there is generally more risk involved hense they should get better rewards."
The amount of risk involved is determined by the devs. If they wanted to, they could easily design solo content that's as challenging.
I could add to that a solo player entering a raid dungeon now is facing more risk than those in a group, but without the potential payoff in the end.
"Actually to me having the raid gear makes soloing and small group stuff LESS fun becuase it is so easy and trivial with the really high level of gear."
Then have raid gear only useable in raid dungeons, and solo gear only useable in solo dungeons. Two completely seperate paths, with two completely seperate sets of prerequisites, gear, and achievements once you reach level cap.
The solo gear would still be technically inferior, but would be functionally superior in solo dungeons.
"Soloers should not get the same rewards as groupers" In option B they don't get the same rewards. "Soloers are like bowlers, they rely on themselfs to compete.... Groupers are like team sports, it not only matters about your personal skills but how well your skills mix with your team mates." So a marathon runner is less of an athelete that a designated hitter? "in a team enviroment, there is generally more risk involved hense they should get better rewards." The amount of risk involved is determined by the devs. If they wanted to, they could easily design solo content that's as challenging. I could add to that a solo player entering a raid dungeon now is facing more risk than those in a group, but without the potential payoff in the end.
A Marathon Runner is less of an athelete then a designated hitter if you look deeper into what you need to be a designated hitter vs a runner... A runner needs strong legs and good breathing and endurance. A designated hitter needs strong legs and good brreathing and endurance as well as hand eye cordination. So the designated hitter has to have more skills then the marathon runner.
A Marathon Runner is less of an athelete then a designated hitter if you look deeper into what you need to be a designated hitter vs a runner... A runner needs strong legs and good breathing and endurance. A designated hitter needs strong legs and good brreathing and endurance as well as hand eye cordination. So the designated hitter has to have more skills then the marathon runner.
To really bring this example home...
The group/raid player has to consider threat, crowd control, timing, ability usage, enrage timers, healing, coordination, tanking, strategy, movement etc. etc.
where as the solo player doesn't have to worry about nearly as many systems.
Sure, solo player can be "harder" because you are all alone, but also because you are all alone you don't need to consider all the different factors that effect group and raid play.
It's just not as complex to solo versus group/raid.
"Soloers should not get the same rewards as groupers" In option B they don't get the same rewards. "Soloers are like bowlers, they rely on themselfs to compete.... Groupers are like team sports, it not only matters about your personal skills but how well your skills mix with your team mates." So a marathon runner is less of an athelete that a designated hitter? "in a team enviroment, there is generally more risk involved hense they should get better rewards." The amount of risk involved is determined by the devs. If they wanted to, they could easily design solo content that's as challenging. I could add to that a solo player entering a raid dungeon now is facing more risk than those in a group, but without the potential payoff in the end.
A Marathon Runner is less of an athelete then a designated hitter if you look deeper into what you need to be a designated hitter vs a runner... A runner needs strong legs and good breathing and endurance. A designated hitter needs strong legs and good brreathing and endurance as well as hand eye cordination. So the designated hitter has to have more skills then the marathon runner.
Have you seen some of those designated hitters, endurance is the lowest of their attributes, unless you count the endurance needed to raise their fork to their mouths for hours on end as a skill that is.
If mmo were only about leveling your character you would be correct. But since mmos are loot whoring PoS you are absolutely wrong. Most items worth a damn that would actually make your character better are gotten from grouping. With the exclusing of WoW pvp gear and possible a select few items.
"It's just not as complex to solo versus group/raid. You don't have to have the same skill set."
PvP players have a different skill set too, and they have seperate self contained paths and reward systems at end game. Why don't they go the same route for solo players, who are an even larger subset in the MMO genre?
Because, honestly, and without trying to sound like an ass, these are MMOs not MSOs.
If the game DIDN'T encourage grouping or guide you to it, ESPECIALLY at end game, it just wouldn't be a MMO.
And as for being a "larger subset" of the genre, maybe for leveling sure a lot more people solo but by the time you reach end-game I can gaurantee you the vast majority, of largest subset of the genre does grouping.
Maybe because they are "forced" to but I don't see this as a problem.
In a game like WoW with 10 classes and 10 races and dozens of zones and thousands of quests and 79 levels of pretty much completely solo content...
Don't you think you are asking for a bit much for them to CONTINUE to cater to you? Imagine how the people who LOVE grouping and raids feel, they'd raid and group from level 1 to 80 if they could, I know I would love that, we ONLY get end-game stuff for our grouping needs.
Originally posted by johnspartan Why do soloers NEED the same level of gear as the raid gear? I mean, do solo mobs hit for 15k per hit and require you to be healed for 8k HPS or you are toast? No, IMO solo players and small group don't need the same quality of gear because the content isn't as demanding in a min/max standpoint as the raider.
That's like saying "WOW's solo content is easy, so those guys don't need or deserve good gear" which isn't terribly useful for this discussion.
Are you incapable of imagining a game where solo content is difficult? Difficult solo content simultaneously (a) is deserving of better reward and (b) is demanding of better gear.
The simple fact is that all content should have its reward based on its difficulty, and that yes - grouping adds some difficulty. But the ideal game has progressively harder content across all types of play, and thus provides gear progression across all types of play. If the solo side of this progression is particularly challenging so that the overall difficulty is even with grouping/raiding, so be it. (Although personally what I'd care about most is seeing small group content be tougher than raiding, and thus provide similar rewards.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That's like saying "WOW's solo content is easy, so those guys don't need or deserve good gear" isn't terribly useful for this discussion. Are you incapable of imagining a game where solo content is difficult? Difficult solo content simultaneously (a) is deserving of better reward and (b) is demanding of better gear. The simple fact is that all content should have its reward based on its difficulty, and that yes - grouping adds some difficulty. But the ideal game has progressively harder content across all types of play, and thus provides gear progression across all types of play. If the solo side of this progression is particularly challenging so that the overall difficulty is even with grouping/raiding, so be it. (Although personally what I'd care about most is seeing small group content be tougher than raiding, and thus provide similar rewards.)
And I'd agree with you on that point. Are you incapable of being friendly and constructive? That comment was not needed. You're the one who said they didn't deserve the same gear, I just said they don't need it. Which they don't, they just want it.
Imagine it this way then -
Content in MMOs is designed to be repeated at end-game. Dungeons, raids, PvP...
So in the same sense, equally challenging solo content with equal rewards would have to be designed to be repeated.
You just can't create enough content in a reasonable time frame to satisfy everyone and not have to repeat it.
So even if it is challenging, do you want to keep soloing the same challening boss / quest over and over again?
Grouping provides a social outlet as well as a degree of variation to make the repetitive nature a little more bareable.
Solo content, well, it's always just you and it's always the same.
I'd echo an early post that FFXI was the least solo friendly MMO I'd every played; after the first few levels it was almost impossible to solo (pre-expansion classes).
Forcing grouping for general (non-Raid) content is a bad idea. However, ENTICING people to group is, in my mind, a great idea. The following concepts have been in place to a lesser extent in some games, but not many that I've played:
Exp bonus while grouping - in most cases, groups are forced to fight harder monsters (or group-class mobs) to earn the same experience someone soloing would in a solo-friendly game. The better policy would be to allow them to fight the same class monsters, divide by the number of people in the group, and then apply a bonus to demonstrate that they are actually getting more experience than by soloing. I remember in WoW it was often faster to quest/grind solo than with friends due to bad group xp splitting.
Increase drop chances for groups - another concept would be to increase the drop percentage for monsters for each member of a group added. I don't mean to modify the drop scale or what can be dropped, just to increase the frequency of drops. Increasing the chances for upper-end drops of a mob's drop scale would be a nice to have as well
The intention here is to provide a clear incentive to grouping. You want players to group; it encourages socialization. However, you should not offer rewards that would be otherwise inaccessible to people who want to solo.
"Because, honestly, and without trying to sound like an ass, these are MMOs not MSOs."
Massively Multiple Online doesn't mean Massively Multiple Raiding Online, it just means many people are partaking in their playstyle, within the same playspace. Please feel free to look up Nicholas Yee's work for a more thorough understanding of the social dynamics behind concepts such as Alone Together. In a nutshell, solo is a valid playstyle, whether you like it or not.
"Don't you think you are asking for a bit much for them to CONTINUE to cater to you? Imagine how the people who LOVE grouping and raids feel, they'd raid and group from level 1 to 80 if they could, I know I would love that, we ONLY get end-game stuff for our grouping needs."
You can group for the entire game in WoW if you want, and receive the best awards, what you can't do is solo the end game. Of course, that's not enough for in addition to that, YOU want solo players to be forced to subsidize YOUR playstyle.
It's amazing how quickly entitlement can colour ones viewpoint on equality.
Lots of classes soloed in eq1. To the point of "groups are harder so they should get the best gear", no not always. Sometimes its a point of honor to me to solo some content that would be trivially easy in a group yet that most people will only group. I do agree that hard content should get better gear, but dont think so much of yourself just because you have 5 people with you. Sometimes its a sign of weakness.
"Because, honestly, and without trying to sound like an ass, these are MMOs not MSOs." Massively Multiple Online doesn't mean Massively Multiple Raiding Online, it just means many people are partaking in their playstyle, within the same playspace. Please feel free to look up Nicholas Yee's work for a more thorough understanding of the social dynamics behind concepts such as Alone Together. In a nutshell, solo is a valid playstyle, whether you like it or not. "Don't you think you are asking for a bit much for them to CONTINUE to cater to you? Imagine how the people who LOVE grouping and raids feel, they'd raid and group from level 1 to 80 if they could, I know I would love that, we ONLY get end-game stuff for our grouping needs."
You can group for the entire game in WoW if you want, and receive the best awards, what you can't do is solo the end game. Of course, that's not enough for in addition to that, YOU want solo players to be forced to subsidize YOUR playstyle. It's amazing how quickly entitlement can colour ones viewpoint on equality.
Stop putting words in my mouth and play nice or I will burn you son.
Solo is a very valid play style and guess what most games you can solo 95% of the content, where as 5% is forced grouping at the "end-game" if that isn't enough solo for you, you are greedy.
It's amazing how wrong you are about me.
I will report you for flaming/trolling if you keep this up.
Getting 95% of something that caters to you and then asking for the last 5% is greed. Plain and simple. Let groupers have their fun, let them have their end-game, and if you are really that jealous of their shiny epics, join a PUG.
If you are THAT against grouping, you're SOL and honestly developers could care less because you are such a small minority it's not worth their development time, money, and effort to create any more content for your playstyle then they already have. It's us group players that feel the worst because so much time and effort is being taken to appeal to solo players that it's hurting what we enjoy about the game. Your opinion/viewpoint is not the only one.
You are the one trying to force your solo only playstyle on group players, making us feel bad because we like to group? That's ridiculous. I solo when I can't group, or when I choose not to group, and I don't feel "forced" to group I actually enjoy it.
If you don't, well, sorry but again you are SOL these are in fact online games that ENCOURAGE social interaction i.e. grouping if you don't like it, I am really am sorry but asking for equal solo content is selfish and you are demanding too much.
In a perfect world, there would be billions of hours of solo content and enough phat loot to keep solo players happy, and also billions of hours of group content and loot for us... but developers have to choose. And since the VAST majority participate in group content at the end game, they HAVE to chose to focus their development efforts on that.
Now keep the tone civil and stop putting words in my mouth.
Comments
"There is a huge difference between equality with people and with gamers."
There's a huge difference in the effect is has on our everyday lives, but the same mindset is present in both forms of prejudice. That mindset says "I am superior, therefore you should be prevented from achieveing at or near my level".
Hard work, determination, and skill are left by the wayside, only to be replaced by a caste system of entitlement and intolerance.
I don't think going all high and philosphical is at all required here.
They are games, and when you read the EULA and ToS and agree to play the game, and send them your money, you are in essence forking over any rights that exist to you in the real world in order to "live" online by the rules of the game.
Equality is not garaunteed nor should it be in a video game.
I'd rather my video games be capitalistic where working hard and participating in joint ventures with other hard working people gets me good rewards in comparison to some socialist who just wants Big Brother to doil out even rewards to the masses.
I'm an American, I'm used to capitalistic ideals so I'd rather not play some socialist MMO.
Your opinion is immaterial.
"I'm an American, I'm used to capitalistic ideals so I'd rather not play some socialist MMO."
This comparison is invalid since a hard working, skilled raider or soloer can easily thrive in your idealistic capitalist MMO. The same can't be said for a caste system though.
Capitalism is based on the idea of have and have nots, just like a feudal or caste system.
You could go as far as to say that having the time and guild structure to enable you to raid is like having the means of production to be a factory owner i.e. capitalist where as the player without the time and/or guild structure doesn't own the means of production neccessary, so must simply be another cog in the machine...
Life's not fair, IMO you have to deal with it, enjoy what you have and make the best of it.
Same is true in a MMO. If you can't raid or do group content, make the best of what you can do and enjoy it or find something else you enjoy more.
Asking the rest of the world/game to change for you is unrealistic and just plain selfish IMO.
Your opinion is immaterial.
"All they'd have to do is add a solo version and a heroic solo version and they'd have everything."
This would be reasonable if one of these two conditions were met:
A. The drops/gear/equipment is the same level as that obtained via group/raid versions.
B. If not A, then the solo dungeons/instances can only be run with equipment obtained via solo play, and only drops items that can be used in solo play. That should include a seperate solo achievement system, with titles, records of solo accomplishments, etc.
I don't think going all high and philosphical is at all required here.
They are games, and when you read the EULA and ToS and agree to play the game, and send them your money, you are in essence forking over any rights that exist to you in the real world in order to "live" online by the rules of the game.
Equality is not garaunteed nor should it be in a video game.
I'd rather my video games be capitalistic where working hard and participating in joint ventures with other hard working people gets me good rewards in comparison to some socialist who just wants Big Brother to doil out even rewards to the masses.
I'm an American, I'm used to capitalistic ideals so I'd rather not play some socialist MMO.
I always cosidered the soloer playstyle to be the capitalistic model and the raider playstyle to be the socialistic one.
The soloer achieves her/his goals through individual hard work and participation in the game. The raiders get theri rewards based on their participation in a collective where they give up their individual aspiration in order to benefit the whole. In a raid society rewards are given iout based on how they benefit the raid and not just on whether an individual has earned them.
As someone who was born in a communist country I definetly prefer the capitalistic soloer model.
Also eqaulity in the game is determined by the fact that we all pay the same subscription fee. As such if the devs want to get outr money they need to give us equal content.
Capitalism is based on the idea of have and have nots, just like a feudal or caste system.
You could go as far as to say that having the time and guild structure to enable you to raid is like having the means of production to be a factory owner i.e. capitalist where as the player without the time and/or guild structure doesn't own the means of production neccessary, so must simply be another cog in the machine...
Life's not fair, IMO you have to deal with it, enjoy what you have and make the best of it.
Same is true in a MMO. If you can't raid or do group content, make the best of what you can do and enjoy it or find something else you enjoy more.
Asking the rest of the world/game to change for you is unrealistic and just plain selfish IMO.
Spot on. That is the key... Be happy with what you, yourself has earned and do not compare yourself to others. What others have or do not have has nothing to do with you or what you have. Either be happy with what you earned yourself or find something that makes you happy and you enjoy.
As in RL, Someone will always be better then you and someone will always be worst then you. that is a fact of life. The sooner you learn and accept that the happier a person you will be.
Currently the players that want solid group content (NOT RAID) are shit out of luck because the soloers are the ones the developers are listening to.... Right or wrong that is how it is.... I understand and accept this, hense I am still playing EQ.
Sooner or Later
Soloers should not get the same rewards as groupers. Not because grouping is harder or anything thing like that... For the simple fact that it takes more effort to complete group content. Generally speaking.
Soloers are like bowlers, they rely on themselfs to compete.... Groupers are like team sports, it not only matters about your personal skills but how well your skills mix with your team mates.
Soloers should have content and groups should have content... Rewards should be based on risk, the more risk the more rewards, in a team enviroment, there is generally more risk involved hense they should get better rewards.
Sooner or Later
"Capitalism is based on the idea of have and have nots, just like a feudal or caste system."
American capitalism is superior to the old worlds caste sytems because people know that if they study and work hard, they can potentially reach the highest levels of society. Those in the old worlds systems may look down upon them as the new rich, but that doesn't take away the fact that they have been supplanted as the true power brokers in this world.
"Life's not fair, IMO you have to deal with it,..."
I am, by complaining, just like those people who were at the back of the bus.
"Currently the players that want solid group content (NOT RAID) are shit out of luck because the soloers are the ones the developers are listening to.... Right or wrong that is how it is.... I understand and accept this, hense I am still playing EQ."
The current crop of Devs were for the most part EQ raiders, which is why the end game in MMO's rewards the raiding playstyle disproportionately. It's human nature of course to create something that resonates towards your own neeeds, but it inevitably leaves solo players orphaned in this genre.
Why do soloers NEED the same level of gear as the raid gear?
I mean, do solo mobs hit for 15k per hit and require you to be healed for 8k HPS or you are toast?
No, IMO solo players and small group don't need the same quality of gear because the content isn't as demanding in a min/max standpoint as the raider.
Would the raid gear help the solo player be even better? Sure it does, trust me I know I'm full T8-T8.5 in WoW, but is it NEEDED? No, of course it's not.
Actually to me having the raid gear makes soloing and small group stuff LESS fun becuase it is so easy and trivial with the really high level of gear.
Dungeons were more fun when you actually had to work in them, instead of just having such good gear you can AoE zerg through everything.
IMO solo and small group should be happy they don't have raid gear cause it makes the game more challenging and thusly more interesting.
Your opinion is immaterial.
"Soloers should not get the same rewards as groupers"
In option B they don't get the same rewards.
"Soloers are like bowlers, they rely on themselfs to compete.... Groupers are like team sports, it not only matters about your personal skills but how well your skills mix with your team mates."
So a marathon runner is less of an athelete that a designated hitter?
"in a team enviroment, there is generally more risk involved hense they should get better rewards."
The amount of risk involved is determined by the devs. If they wanted to, they could easily design solo content that's as challenging.
I could add to that a solo player entering a raid dungeon now is facing more risk than those in a group, but without the potential payoff in the end.
"Actually to me having the raid gear makes soloing and small group stuff LESS fun becuase it is so easy and trivial with the really high level of gear."
Then have raid gear only useable in raid dungeons, and solo gear only useable in solo dungeons. Two completely seperate paths, with two completely seperate sets of prerequisites, gear, and achievements once you reach level cap.
The solo gear would still be technically inferior, but would be functionally superior in solo dungeons.
A Marathon Runner is less of an athelete then a designated hitter if you look deeper into what you need to be a designated hitter vs a runner... A runner needs strong legs and good breathing and endurance. A designated hitter needs strong legs and good brreathing and endurance as well as hand eye cordination. So the designated hitter has to have more skills then the marathon runner.
Sooner or Later
To really bring this example home...
The group/raid player has to consider threat, crowd control, timing, ability usage, enrage timers, healing, coordination, tanking, strategy, movement etc. etc.
where as the solo player doesn't have to worry about nearly as many systems.
Sure, solo player can be "harder" because you are all alone, but also because you are all alone you don't need to consider all the different factors that effect group and raid play.
It's just not as complex to solo versus group/raid.
You don't have to have the same skill set.
Your opinion is immaterial.
A Marathon Runner is less of an athelete then a designated hitter if you look deeper into what you need to be a designated hitter vs a runner... A runner needs strong legs and good breathing and endurance. A designated hitter needs strong legs and good brreathing and endurance as well as hand eye cordination. So the designated hitter has to have more skills then the marathon runner.
Have you seen some of those designated hitters, endurance is the lowest of their attributes, unless you count the endurance needed to raise their fork to their mouths for hours on end as a skill that is.
If mmo were only about leveling your character you would be correct. But since mmos are loot whoring PoS you are absolutely wrong. Most items worth a damn that would actually make your character better are gotten from grouping. With the exclusing of WoW pvp gear and possible a select few items.
"It's just not as complex to solo versus group/raid.
You don't have to have the same skill set."
PvP players have a different skill set too, and they have seperate self contained paths and reward systems at end game.
Why don't they go the same route for solo players, who are an even larger subset in the MMO genre?
Because, honestly, and without trying to sound like an ass, these are MMOs not MSOs.
If the game DIDN'T encourage grouping or guide you to it, ESPECIALLY at end game, it just wouldn't be a MMO.
And as for being a "larger subset" of the genre, maybe for leveling sure a lot more people solo but by the time you reach end-game I can gaurantee you the vast majority, of largest subset of the genre does grouping.
Maybe because they are "forced" to but I don't see this as a problem.
In a game like WoW with 10 classes and 10 races and dozens of zones and thousands of quests and 79 levels of pretty much completely solo content...
Don't you think you are asking for a bit much for them to CONTINUE to cater to you? Imagine how the people who LOVE grouping and raids feel, they'd raid and group from level 1 to 80 if they could, I know I would love that, we ONLY get end-game stuff for our grouping needs.
Your opinion is immaterial.
That's like saying "WOW's solo content is easy, so those guys don't need or deserve good gear" which isn't terribly useful for this discussion.
Are you incapable of imagining a game where solo content is difficult? Difficult solo content simultaneously (a) is deserving of better reward and (b) is demanding of better gear.
The simple fact is that all content should have its reward based on its difficulty, and that yes - grouping adds some difficulty. But the ideal game has progressively harder content across all types of play, and thus provides gear progression across all types of play. If the solo side of this progression is particularly challenging so that the overall difficulty is even with grouping/raiding, so be it. (Although personally what I'd care about most is seeing small group content be tougher than raiding, and thus provide similar rewards.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
And I'd agree with you on that point. Are you incapable of being friendly and constructive? That comment was not needed. You're the one who said they didn't deserve the same gear, I just said they don't need it. Which they don't, they just want it.
Imagine it this way then -
Content in MMOs is designed to be repeated at end-game. Dungeons, raids, PvP...
So in the same sense, equally challenging solo content with equal rewards would have to be designed to be repeated.
You just can't create enough content in a reasonable time frame to satisfy everyone and not have to repeat it.
So even if it is challenging, do you want to keep soloing the same challening boss / quest over and over again?
Grouping provides a social outlet as well as a degree of variation to make the repetitive nature a little more bareable.
Solo content, well, it's always just you and it's always the same.
For me? No thanks.
Your opinion is immaterial.
I'd echo an early post that FFXI was the least solo friendly MMO I'd every played; after the first few levels it was almost impossible to solo (pre-expansion classes).
Forcing grouping for general (non-Raid) content is a bad idea. However, ENTICING people to group is, in my mind, a great idea. The following concepts have been in place to a lesser extent in some games, but not many that I've played:
The intention here is to provide a clear incentive to grouping. You want players to group; it encourages socialization. However, you should not offer rewards that would be otherwise inaccessible to people who want to solo.
"Because, honestly, and without trying to sound like an ass, these are MMOs not MSOs."
Massively Multiple Online doesn't mean Massively Multiple Raiding Online, it just means many people are partaking in their playstyle, within the same playspace. Please feel free to look up Nicholas Yee's work for a more thorough understanding of the social dynamics behind concepts such as Alone Together. In a nutshell, solo is a valid playstyle, whether you like it or not.
"Don't you think you are asking for a bit much for them to CONTINUE to cater to you? Imagine how the people who LOVE grouping and raids feel, they'd raid and group from level 1 to 80 if they could, I know I would love that, we ONLY get end-game stuff for our grouping needs."
You can group for the entire game in WoW if you want, and receive the best awards, what you can't do is solo the end game. Of course, that's not enough for in addition to that, YOU want solo players to be forced to subsidize YOUR playstyle.
It's amazing how quickly entitlement can colour ones viewpoint on equality.
Lots of classes soloed in eq1. To the point of "groups are harder so they should get the best gear", no not always. Sometimes its a point of honor to me to solo some content that would be trivially easy in a group yet that most people will only group. I do agree that hard content should get better gear, but dont think so much of yourself just because you have 5 people with you. Sometimes its a sign of weakness.
Stop putting words in my mouth and play nice or I will burn you son.
Solo is a very valid play style and guess what most games you can solo 95% of the content, where as 5% is forced grouping at the "end-game" if that isn't enough solo for you, you are greedy.
It's amazing how wrong you are about me.
I will report you for flaming/trolling if you keep this up.
Getting 95% of something that caters to you and then asking for the last 5% is greed. Plain and simple. Let groupers have their fun, let them have their end-game, and if you are really that jealous of their shiny epics, join a PUG.
If you are THAT against grouping, you're SOL and honestly developers could care less because you are such a small minority it's not worth their development time, money, and effort to create any more content for your playstyle then they already have. It's us group players that feel the worst because so much time and effort is being taken to appeal to solo players that it's hurting what we enjoy about the game. Your opinion/viewpoint is not the only one.
You are the one trying to force your solo only playstyle on group players, making us feel bad because we like to group? That's ridiculous. I solo when I can't group, or when I choose not to group, and I don't feel "forced" to group I actually enjoy it.
If you don't, well, sorry but again you are SOL these are in fact online games that ENCOURAGE social interaction i.e. grouping if you don't like it, I am really am sorry but asking for equal solo content is selfish and you are demanding too much.
In a perfect world, there would be billions of hours of solo content and enough phat loot to keep solo players happy, and also billions of hours of group content and loot for us... but developers have to choose. And since the VAST majority participate in group content at the end game, they HAVE to chose to focus their development efforts on that.
Now keep the tone civil and stop putting words in my mouth.
Your opinion is immaterial.