If I'm playing an RPG, I'll expect some sort of progression that makes my character more powerful in time.
In games where player skill and a "level playing field" matter the most (say action games such as FPS), *you* as the player get better in time. The whole progress is on your part. If you win, you've won through those skills you've been honing playing the game for hours and hours (though there will always be opponents who'll say you just got lucky, heh).
RPG is a different matter. Generally the point is that you get to feel skillfull, smart, powerful, heroic etc. *through* your avatar... So, it's the avatar that's getting "better" at fighting. Your "skill" as a player mostly lies in overall strategy in creating and progressing it: the way you conceive your character, making a good roadmap for it. On top of that, there's the fighting strategy, another level of skill where you have to make the right choices...
Though more and more in modern games (meaning last 10 or so years), you also have to think fast and be quick on your fingers... I think emphasizing player reflexes in an RPG goes against its basic design principles, but it seems more and more developers see the future of the genre in a blending of the two.
The skill in RPG combat games, or numerical gear/level based comes down to a few things IMO-
1. Min/maxing your character. This includes gear selection, stats, talent/skill builds, even optimal rotations and macros and mods. Most of this you CAN look up and have someone else tell you, but you won't really be the best unless you understand the "why" not just the "what."
2. Knowledge of game/character mechanics. This includes knowing the terrain or map, knowing your abilities and what they do and also knowing your enemy and what they are capable of and what they can do and how you can counter it. Also this is knowing how to "read" your enemy based off of factors like the gear they are wearing or Titles they have etc.
3. Playing you character. You have to know when to use your abilities and when to save them and knowing the best strategies does not = being able to execute the best strategies. There is a bit of finesse and style associated with it and really this point is one of the most important little nuances that really make a player "good" or not. There is a degree of "twitch" in this as you have to be able to react quickly and be faster "on the draw" in a lot of cases.
Could have quoted all of your posts in this thread, I agree with all of them.
If I wanted to play balanced PVP games I'd stick to FPShooters, my MMO's should have the depth to make all of the factors you mention here as variables to make for interesting combat.
DAOC was one such game.
Yeah, I agree as well. My first thought when seeing this thread was "if one doesn't want gear and only wants skill, just play a fps game, problem solved".
Role playing games are about acquiring abilities, gear, spells, etc.
I'm old fashioned and like my gear and my levels.
Agree!! We already have both. As long as there isn't a huge disparity in gear, WOW allows for skill to determine most of the outcomes of a fight. If someone completely obliterates me due to gear, so what. I can accept that. The percentage of players that are far and above anyone else is pretty small anyway. Generally if you know what you're doing, you can be competitive.
If its an RPG, stats should matter. Gear is ONLY fun when it actually has an impact. Otherwise its pointless and trivial and BORING. If i wanted perfectly even fights, I'll play an FPS. If I'm playing a MMOG, I want to know that preparation, character building and my choices matter. If they don't theres no connection to the character which leads to no immersion.
Most pvp players don't actually WANT balance. They want their specific class and spec to be the top dog, with the others occassionally putting up a good fight. They prefer uneven odds, uneven gear, any advantage they can get their hands on.
Originally posted by t0nyd This is a bad example for what you are trying to say. Mike Tyson would not win because he is higher level than you. Nor would Mike Tyson win due to having + 5 vorpal boxing gloves. Mike Tyson wins because he is a better boxer than you...
One level difference between lvl 79 and 80 is a huge gap in power. This gap in power is all based on equipment. Ive seen a lvl 79 have 10k hit points and a lvl 80 have 25k hit points. This is a huge gap in power...
Well the Tyson example isn't totally wrong. Even ignoring boxing skill, Tyson's strength is much higher than DarkPony's strength in real life. :P
As for the bit about power gaps, it's obviously going to seem extreme if you use "level" as a measurement. Level is a terrible measurement of progression in a game which (as you admit) is all gear-based at 80. Doesn't mean post-80 progression is any more or less imbalanced than pre-80 progression though. If you have any power progression at all, it's going to have an impact on fights and be part of whether players win or lose.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It should come down the this: Knowing yourself and knowingyour enemy.
Knowing what enemy is superior and how to avoid them is huge part of PvP. It should not be kiled that one, dies, killed, killed, died and so on. Then complaining about balance.
I usually think like this: A Knife and a Handgun can have the same damage output. The Gun you can use at a distance, but its load and will run out of ammo. The Knife is silent and will always work. And wich of them works in a phone booth? Does that make them balanced or gear based??
Agree!! We already have both. As long as there isn't a huge disparity in gear, WOW allows for skill to determine most of the outcomes of a fight. If someone completely obliterates me due to gear, so what. I can accept that. The percentage of players that are far and above anyone else is pretty small anyway. Generally if you know what you're doing, you can be competitive. If its an RPG, stats should matter. Gear is ONLY fun when it actually has an impact. Otherwise its pointless and trivial and BORING. If i wanted perfectly even fights, I'll play an FPS. If I'm playing a MMOG, I want to know that preparation, character building and my choices matter. If they don't theres no connection to the character which leads to no immersion.
Great post, I agree completely.
Gear makes MMOs fun and gear makes MMOs what they are, yeah it's fun to be better then someone due to skill at playing the game but it's also a lot of fun to work towards and then get really good gear and then use that gear to slaughter people or even make PvE content easier.
It's fun to win.
It can still be challenging of course, but I don't like beating my head against a wall and I don't like things so difficult only the top 1% have any chance of victory.
I'd say if you are a good player you should have a 80-90% chance of winning assuming you are geared and specced correctly, you use good teamwork and strategy, and are well coordinated. That'd be true of PvP and PvE to me.
The skill in RPG combat games, or numerical gear/level based comes down to a few things IMO- 1. Min/maxing your character. This includes gear selection, stats, talent/skill builds, even optimal rotations and macros and mods. Most of this you CAN look up and have someone else tell you, but you won't really be the best unless you understand the "why" not just the "what."
2. Knowledge of game/character mechanics. This includes knowing the terrain or map, knowing your abilities and what they do and also knowing your enemy and what they are capable of and what they can do and how you can counter it. Also this is knowing how to "read" your enemy based off of factors like the gear they are wearing or Titles they have etc.
3. Playing you character. You have to know when to use your abilities and when to save them and knowing the best strategies does not = being able to execute the best strategies. There is a bit of finesse and style associated with it and really this point is one of the most important little nuances that really make a player "good" or not. There is a degree of "twitch" in this as you have to be able to react quickly and be faster "on the draw" in a lot of cases.
Could have quoted all of your posts in this thread, I agree with all of them.
If I wanted to play balanced PVP games I'd stick to FPShooters, my MMO's should have the depth to make all of the factors you mention here as variables to make for interesting combat.
DAOC was one such game.
Yeah, I agree as well. My first thought when seeing this thread was "if one doesn't want gear and only wants skill, just play a fps game, problem solved".
Role playing games are about acquiring abilities, gear, spells, etc.
I'm old fashioned and like my gear and my levels.
Here comes the same old response. Someone should really kill this response. Let me break it down for you...
I play an FPS to play and FPS. FPS are nothing like MMORPGS.
I play an MMORPG to play an MMORPG.
So why the fuck are you telling people to go play an fps if they want a less gear/reliant type of mmorpg. Hooray for you. I am glad that you like your gear and your levels. Not everyone is like you. So for them, lets not give them their own type of MMORPG, lets just tell them to play an fps.
You do realize how moronic that attitude is? Its like telling someone, we dont snowboard here, we ski, so ski or leave. No snowboarding ever, because skiing is close enough. If you want to ski, go water ski, its close enough...
RPGs started being based on Gear/Levels/Stats, so why do you want to play a MMORPG without them? It just wouldn't be too RPG like if it didn't include those basic things that started the RPG genre to begin with.
The skill in RPG combat games, or numerical gear/level based comes down to a few things IMO- 1. Min/maxing your character. This includes gear selection, stats, talent/skill builds, even optimal rotations and macros and mods. Most of this you CAN look up and have someone else tell you, but you won't really be the best unless you understand the "why" not just the "what."
2. Knowledge of game/character mechanics. This includes knowing the terrain or map, knowing your abilities and what they do and also knowing your enemy and what they are capable of and what they can do and how you can counter it. Also this is knowing how to "read" your enemy based off of factors like the gear they are wearing or Titles they have etc.
3. Playing you character. You have to know when to use your abilities and when to save them and knowing the best strategies does not = being able to execute the best strategies. There is a bit of finesse and style associated with it and really this point is one of the most important little nuances that really make a player "good" or not. There is a degree of "twitch" in this as you have to be able to react quickly and be faster "on the draw" in a lot of cases.
Could have quoted all of your posts in this thread, I agree with all of them.
If I wanted to play balanced PVP games I'd stick to FPShooters, my MMO's should have the depth to make all of the factors you mention here as variables to make for interesting combat.
DAOC was one such game.
Yeah, I agree as well. My first thought when seeing this thread was "if one doesn't want gear and only wants skill, just play a fps game, problem solved".
Role playing games are about acquiring abilities, gear, spells, etc.
I'm old fashioned and like my gear and my levels.
Here comes the same old response. Someone should really kill this response. Let me break it down for you...
I play an FPS to play and FPS. FPS are nothing like MMORPGS.
I play an MMORPG to play an MMORPG.
So why the fuck are you telling people to go play an fps if they want a less gear/reliant type of mmorpg. Hooray for you. I am glad that you like your gear and your levels. Not everyone is like you. So for them, lets not give them their own type of MMORPG, lets just tell them to play an fps.
You do realize how moronic that attitude is? Its like telling someone, we dont snowboard here, we ski, so ski or leave. No snowboarding ever, because skiing is close enough. If you want to ski, go water ski, its close enough...
whoa, calm down there brother. I'm not telling you to do anything (I put that thought in quotes - as it was my first thought) so sit down and have a tall cold one.
I have no problem with you wanting an mmo that doesn't have gear requirements or levels. I have no problem with you having an mmo with absolutely no pvp. Or with all pvp. Or one where you play dress up. Or sit in a corner and cyber all day.
As I said, I agree with the poster in that I do prefer games with gear and levels so that is very true. But my first thought when seeing the no gea/skill vs gear/level based pvp was exactlly that: fps have no gear and are completely based on skill. Therefore, one wanting a combat game could get what they want. I was thinking purely of the combat and that it's possible to get that type of combat.
And yes, traditionally role playing games are about acquiring gear, skills. Go all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons. Maybe earlier though I can't tell.
However, if you really enjoy crafting and questing but would rather not have things gear based then more power to you.
Your response doesn't have to be jumping up and down "why the fuck... " etc. that would just be equally moronic no?
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One thing I should add is like I'd like the barriers to entry to be a bit low for PvP, with lots of room for upwards advancement.
Getting to max level is one thing, but in WoW for example you need and I mean really NEED Resilience gear to survive long enough with the incredible burst damage in PvP to get anything done.
There is some gear available via crafting that can give you a "base" of reslience to get started in PvP, but that requires either being a crafter or purchasing it. While that is fine in it's own right, at the same time for the player that ONLY wants to PvP they should be able to get a "base set" fairly easily.
How easily?
Within a couple of days for most, maybe 8-10 hours after hitting "max" level you should have all the honor or points or badges or marks etc. neccessary to purchase a complete set of PvP gear. It doesn't have to be the best, anything but, I'm talking total entry level stuff, but in terms of WoW enough Resilience and Health + stats to at least be slightly competitive.
I voted for perfectly balanced albeit, I don't mind items having some influence on my avatar's ability. Really its not so much about the items themselves- it's about 'access' to said items. As long as items are fairly attainable its pretty much all good.
Theres an Achiever vs Killer conflict here sure
This might sound weird but what i might prefer is ability to earn XP to use items (you know unlock it) then from that point on its fairly easy to get the item.
I really thought Guild wars had the right idea in this regard!!!
Voted for gear / level / stat based. Most realistic. By far. If I get in a brawl with Mike Tyson, I will lose .... big time. No matter how fast I would circle strafe him. This is a bad example for what you are trying to say. Mike Tyson would not win because he is higher level than you. Nor would Mike Tyson win due to having + 5 vorpal boxing gloves. Mike Tyson wins because he is a better boxer than you... And because his crucial stats here far surpass my own. I am not flimsy but some blokes grow up to be natural monsters. If I would find myself in a shootout at 500 yards with a medieval musketeer and I happened to sport a .50 sniper rifle, he would be dead in the water. This example is a bit better. If you focus on games such as WoW, you dont have an archaic rifle vs a modern rifle. In WoW you have two musket type rifles facing off, yet somehow one of em give you more hit points than the other? Statistic placement on equipment just does not make much sense. I could understand a scope helping your accuracy, but giving you hit points, no. Id rather these games allow the player to place their owns statistic where they like. That would give much more variety with character set ups other than OH Im max level and I pvp so I guess I have 1 choice, that being arena gear... Sure, item bonusses are often odd, to say the least. I like the idea of having control over bonusses. But still; some people have better gear than others, mainly because they invested more time and/or money in achieving that gear. Just like RL. In that sense I have peace with the fact that I occasionaly get overtaken by a Porsche in one second flat.
And I also love the feeling of earning / finding / working for a really usefull upgrade, item wise. The best mmorpgs balance their system such, that items and stats DO matter but player skill still plays a big part. The best games would balance their system so that items and stats do matter, but player skill still plays a big part. A game like WoW doesnt do this in any sense of the word, balance. One level difference between lvl 79 and 80 is a huge gap in power. This gap in power is all based on equipment. Ive seen a lvl 79 have 10k hit points and a lvl 80 have 25k hit points. This is a huge gap in power... Actually that isn't a very honest example. Sure the biggest difference in POTENTIAL gear in WOW is between 79 and 80, but the level cap gives you access to the best gear in the game from a whole range of advanced lines of progress. A level 79 dueling someone who just dinged 80 and still wearing similar stuff is a different story than dueling a level 80 who has already did 6 months of raiding / arena's / pvp. Ofcourse, you should actually view those players as level 90's. I do agree that in general, WOW is too much gear focussed though, let's say it is 65% gear dependent versus 35% skill dependent where the perfect balance for me would be 50/50. But you know just as well as I do that using the right skills at the right time and using the right sequences or knowing when to bail out can be very crucial in WOW's pvp and a fresh e-bayer playing a maxed out char will lose big time to any skillfull player with crappy gear a couple of levels below him. edit: bottom line for me would be that without any possible advantages of gear a MMORPG loses alot of it's apeal in aquiring items and progressing your char by getting him/her better gear occasionaly. If you worked long and hard to get those rewards, your earned the small, subsequent advantage you have over those who didn't do so. It also reflects reality; RL isn't fair and balanced either and humans are trying badly to progress in life by aquiring better gear as well
I personally would rather an even playing field based on skill rather then gear. Why should the casual gamer be worse off then the hardcore players? I don't have time to play 10 hours aday so its nice to be able to compete when I do log in.
I wasnt jumping up and down. I just dont understand the mentality " its always been this way, so it should always be this way, go find do this instead. ". Is this a lesson in tradition? The world is round you know? This can change? All thing must not always be the same from the moment of its inception. Guildwars is more of a game based on competition than a game based off time. In the end this poll asks two things and those are... Time VS Competition Which do you prefer. Personally I prefer competition. I have no problem with people prefering time. I do have a problem with people saying, its always been about time so it should always be about time...
Well, then we can agree in the sense that things don't always have to be the same. I think if one can find a game that is different, even radically different and there are enough people to play it then all the better.
I do think that people, some people, are slow to change for a variety of reasons. There is something to be said about long roots. There is also something to be said about not becoming stale. Personally, I like both skill and gear. One of the reasons I really liked guild Wars. but then again, I don't mind gear smoothing things over a bit or a bit of randomness such as some of the assassin skills in Lineage 2.
I don't mind time over competition if that is the game I've signed up for. I don't mind competition over time if THAT is the game signed up for.
In some ways it's like saying chess over badminton. some days I want to play chess and enjoy the intricacies of the game. And some days I want to just run around and bat the hell out of the birdie.
Each one offers something different in my mind and I can easily subscribe to either school of thought. However, in the end I do tend to like games such as Lineage 2 because of the great time commitment.
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IMO, you are kinda contradicting "even playing field" with your question. In order for it to be truly even, everyone would have to have the same abilities, health.... everything.
This is my problem with PvP in MMOs even though I still enjoy it to some degree, unless of coarse, I have the misfortune to choose an, or the most underpowered class, then I just cancel.
There are waaaay too many variables in MMO PvP to have anything near an even playing field.
Character development is at the core of an RPG and gear is part of that. I think WOW is a bad example because WOW is completely gear dependent. At cap level, gear is the only way to advance your character since at cap you have every skill you will get and will never get another one. Other games offer better advancement systems where gear still matters, but not as much since you can get additional skills through PvP ranks, achievements and other such methods. Character development should matter, but I think it currently plays too much of a role in most games.
Skill should also matter since without skill it just becomes a mindless grind. Skill in the sense of twitch I think is way overused though. Knowing and applying things like teamwork, strategy, terrain, and class/skill sets needs to be taken more into consideration in PvP. I think if devs slowed fights down and let them actually play out more that people would get far more enjoyment out of PvP then they do now.
One thing that I think would also help would be if developers were honest about PvP balance. I was an old school DAOC player and I remember some of the balance discussions in that game. The problem was that Mythic never said what they were balancing PvP around. Blizzard said it was Rock Paper Scissors, but even that really turned out to be wrong since they redid the classes and turned everyone into a DPS class. I think if gamers actually knew what the game was balanced around PvP wise then they would be able to better judge balance issues for themselves. A good example is, if I played a caster and I knew that I would always beat a warrior 1v1 but always loose to a ranger I would know not to bitch if I got creamed by them. Likewise, if you say it is balanced around groups, then say you have a group of 6. Any well rounded group of 6 should stand a chance against another well rounded group of 6. There should never be an optimal group make up like I have seen in several games. But if I go out with a healer/support heavy group and get rolled by that well rounded group, hey we should have balanced things out better.
In all honesty, every fight should start at 50/50. Then things like character development, class understanding, use of terrain and mechanics, ect, ect should tilt the scales. It is when just one thing tips the scales massively that people begin to complain.
Character development is at the core of an RPG and gear is part of that. I think WOW is a bad example because WOW is completely gear dependent. At cap level, gear is the only way to advance your character since at cap you have every skill you will get and will never get another one. Other games offer better advancement systems where gear still matters, but not as much since you can get additional skills through PvP ranks, achievements and other such methods. Character development should matter, but I think it currently plays too much of a role in most games.
Skill should also matter since without skill it just becomes a mindless grind. Skill in the sense of twitch I think is way overused though. Knowing and applying things like teamwork, strategy, terrain, and class/skill sets needs to be taken more into consideration in PvP. I think if devs slowed fights down and let them actually play out more that people would get far more enjoyment out of PvP then they do now. One thing that I think would also help would be if developers were honest about PvP balance. I was an old school DAOC player and I remember some of the balance discussions in that game. The problem was that Mythic never said what they were balancing PvP around. Blizzard said it was Rock Paper Scissors, but even that really turned out to be wrong since they redid the classes and turned everyone into a DPS class. I think if gamers actually knew what the game was balanced around PvP wise then they would be able to better judge balance issues for themselves. A good example is, if I played a caster and I knew that I would always beat a warrior 1v1 but always loose to a ranger I would know not to bitch if I got creamed by them. Likewise, if you say it is balanced around groups, then say you have a group of 6. Any well rounded group of 6 should stand a chance against another well rounded group of 6. There should never be an optimal group make up like I have seen in several games. But if I go out with a healer/support heavy group and get rolled by that well rounded group, hey we should have balanced things out better. In all honesty, every fight should start at 50/50. Then things like character development, class understanding, use of terrain and mechanics, ect, ect should tilt the scales. It is when just one thing tips the scales massively that people begin to complain.
In a dream world, it would always be 50/50, but in most MMOs as they are now, there's just too many variables to accomplish this. It's often one ability that gives one class a great advantage over another, then there's character stats, then there's gear, and these are never going to be equal across the board in MMO PvP, unless there's no advancement at all, pretty much reducing it to a FPS.
The only way both players could ever have a 50/50 chance is if their characters are clones, the rate of combat doesn't even play a part in this, slower paced combat will just mean a sower death for the disadvantaged character.
Think of it like this, if two people were playing chess, and one of them started with only 1 knight and 1 bishop. There's a possibilty he can win, but he's at a slight disadvantage. Take this and randomly remove different pieces each time the player plays a different opponent. This is the way I see MMO PvP.
In a dream world, it would always be 50/50, but in most MMOs as they are now, there's just too many variables to accomplish this. It's often one ability that gives one class a great advantage over another, then there's character stats, then there's gear, and these are never going to be equal across the board in MMO PvP, unless there's no advancement at all, pretty much reducing it to a FPS.
The only way both players could ever have a 50/50 chance is if their characters are clones, the rate of combat doesn't even play a part in this, slower paced combat will just mean a sower death for the disadvantaged character.
Think of it like this, if two people were playing chess, and one of them started with only 1 knight and 1 bishop. There's a possibilty he can win, but he's at a slight disadvantage. Take this and randomly remove different pieces each time the player plays a different opponent. This is the way I see MMO PvP.
True it may be a dream world, but I did say that it should start there and then all those factors should come into play and tip the scales.
The problem is that most games now use a mortal combat style of twitch combat that makes skill choice and strategy not matter since it is who can mash the buttons in the right order the fastest.
As for the class skills that tip the balance, that is where devs being honest about what it is balanced around comes in. Blizzard said Rock-Paper-Scissors, while it did not play out this way, at least people had a basis then that caster would always beat warrior would always beat rogue would always beat caster, ect, ect.
this is where your chess analogy works well. In chess both sides start with the same number and type of peices, hence the balanced MMO PVP battle. Now things like understanding of the game mechanics, the stratageies, and such come into play. One player may know something the other doesn't giving them a slight advantage. The other may have a better stratagey giving them an advantage. That is what I was talking about.
In a dream world, it would always be 50/50, but in most MMOs as they are now, there's just too many variables to accomplish this. It's often one ability that gives one class a great advantage over another, then there's character stats, then there's gear, and these are never going to be equal across the board in MMO PvP, unless there's no advancement at all, pretty much reducing it to a FPS.
The only way both players could ever have a 50/50 chance is if their characters are clones, the rate of combat doesn't even play a part in this, slower paced combat will just mean a sower death for the disadvantaged character.
Think of it like this, if two people were playing chess, and one of them started with only 1 knight and 1 bishop. There's a possibilty he can win, but he's at a slight disadvantage. Take this and randomly remove different pieces each time the player plays a different opponent. This is the way I see MMO PvP.
True it may be a dream world, but I did say that it should start there and then all those factors should come into play and tip the scales.
The problem is that most games now use a mortal combat style of twitch combat that makes skill choice and strategy not matter since it is who can mash the buttons in the right order the fastest.
As for the class skills that tip the balance, that is where devs being honest about what it is balanced around comes in. Blizzard said Rock-Paper-Scissors, while it did not play out this way, at least people had a basis then that caster would always beat warrior would always beat rogue would always beat caster, ect, ect.
this is where your chess analogy works well. In chess both sides start with the same number and type of peices, hence the balanced MMO PVP battle. Now things like understanding of the game mechanics, the stratageies, and such come into play. One player may know something the other doesn't giving them a slight advantage. The other may have a better stratagey giving them an advantage. That is what I was talking about.
What you're asking for is impossible IMO unless there is no variation at all between characters, I don't see where you're getting your starting point if the characters are planned to be different classes with different abilities, stats, etc.
Taking the actual players knowledge, and strategy, etc, out of the equation. One class will win all the time or most of the time against others. I think a good way to test this would be with some good AI, since they would behave exactly the same, giving developers an idea of what abilities need to be changed around for better balance. That's one of the major problems I think developers have, is that they use humans to test the effectiveness of classes where there is an oceans worth of extra variables to deal with, not to mention, lying players, biased players, etc.
Another thing I want to disagree on is where you said strategy and skill choice play no part in real time combat. While it's true you don't have the luxury of thinking through every possible move in the moment of battle. You can always keep your experiences in your mind, and think of what you could have done differently to alter the outcome of the battle and practice on putting your new moves to use, which is strategizing.
I can respect your preference for more turn based gameplay, but I don't really think it has a place in MMOs. I prefer real time combat.
They're essentially the same though, with one you just have more time to consider your options as situations occur. We usually tend to end up programming ourselves to do the same thing in a given situation though.
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If I'm playing an RPG, I'll expect some sort of progression that makes my character more powerful in time.
In games where player skill and a "level playing field" matter the most (say action games such as FPS), *you* as the player get better in time. The whole progress is on your part. If you win, you've won through those skills you've been honing playing the game for hours and hours (though there will always be opponents who'll say you just got lucky, heh).
RPG is a different matter. Generally the point is that you get to feel skillfull, smart, powerful, heroic etc. *through* your avatar... So, it's the avatar that's getting "better" at fighting. Your "skill" as a player mostly lies in overall strategy in creating and progressing it: the way you conceive your character, making a good roadmap for it. On top of that, there's the fighting strategy, another level of skill where you have to make the right choices...
Though more and more in modern games (meaning last 10 or so years), you also have to think fast and be quick on your fingers... I think emphasizing player reflexes in an RPG goes against its basic design principles, but it seems more and more developers see the future of the genre in a blending of the two.
Voted for gear / level / stat based.
Most realistic. By far.
If I get in a brawl with Mike Tyson, I will lose .... big time. No matter how fast I would circle strafe him.
If I would find myself in a shootout at 500 yards with a medieval musketeer and I happened to sport a .50 sniper rifle, he would be dead in the water.
And I also love the feeling of earning / finding / working for a really usefull upgrade, item wise.
The best mmorpgs balance their system such, that items and stats DO matter but player skill still plays a big part.
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Agree!! We already have both. As long as there isn't a huge disparity in gear, WOW allows for skill to determine most of the outcomes of a fight. If someone completely obliterates me due to gear, so what. I can accept that. The percentage of players that are far and above anyone else is pretty small anyway. Generally if you know what you're doing, you can be competitive.
If its an RPG, stats should matter. Gear is ONLY fun when it actually has an impact. Otherwise its pointless and trivial and BORING. If i wanted perfectly even fights, I'll play an FPS. If I'm playing a MMOG, I want to know that preparation, character building and my choices matter. If they don't theres no connection to the character which leads to no immersion.
Most pvp players don't actually WANT balance. They want their specific class and spec to be the top dog, with the others occassionally putting up a good fight. They prefer uneven odds, uneven gear, any advantage they can get their hands on.
Basically, pvp players want to win.
Well the Tyson example isn't totally wrong. Even ignoring boxing skill, Tyson's strength is much higher than DarkPony's strength in real life. :P
As for the bit about power gaps, it's obviously going to seem extreme if you use "level" as a measurement. Level is a terrible measurement of progression in a game which (as you admit) is all gear-based at 80. Doesn't mean post-80 progression is any more or less imbalanced than pre-80 progression though. If you have any power progression at all, it's going to have an impact on fights and be part of whether players win or lose.
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It is a question of balance but better items should effect all areas of the game, PvP included.
perfecly balanced = boring a warrior shouldint lose against a priest thats gay
It should come down the this: Knowing yourself and knowingyour enemy.
Knowing what enemy is superior and how to avoid them is huge part of PvP. It should not be kiled that one, dies, killed, killed, died and so on. Then complaining about balance.
I usually think like this: A Knife and a Handgun can have the same damage output. The Gun you can use at a distance, but its load and will run out of ammo. The Knife is silent and will always work. And wich of them works in a phone booth? Does that make them balanced or gear based??
Great post, I agree completely.
Gear makes MMOs fun and gear makes MMOs what they are, yeah it's fun to be better then someone due to skill at playing the game but it's also a lot of fun to work towards and then get really good gear and then use that gear to slaughter people or even make PvE content easier.
It's fun to win.
It can still be challenging of course, but I don't like beating my head against a wall and I don't like things so difficult only the top 1% have any chance of victory.
I'd say if you are a good player you should have a 80-90% chance of winning assuming you are geared and specced correctly, you use good teamwork and strategy, and are well coordinated. That'd be true of PvP and PvE to me.
Your opinion is immaterial.
Could have quoted all of your posts in this thread, I agree with all of them.
If I wanted to play balanced PVP games I'd stick to FPShooters, my MMO's should have the depth to make all of the factors you mention here as variables to make for interesting combat.
DAOC was one such game.
Yeah, I agree as well. My first thought when seeing this thread was "if one doesn't want gear and only wants skill, just play a fps game, problem solved".
Role playing games are about acquiring abilities, gear, spells, etc.
I'm old fashioned and like my gear and my levels.
Here comes the same old response. Someone should really kill this response. Let me break it down for you...
I play an FPS to play and FPS. FPS are nothing like MMORPGS.
I play an MMORPG to play an MMORPG.
So why the fuck are you telling people to go play an fps if they want a less gear/reliant type of mmorpg. Hooray for you. I am glad that you like your gear and your levels. Not everyone is like you. So for them, lets not give them their own type of MMORPG, lets just tell them to play an fps.
You do realize how moronic that attitude is? Its like telling someone, we dont snowboard here, we ski, so ski or leave. No snowboarding ever, because skiing is close enough. If you want to ski, go water ski, its close enough...
RPGs started being based on Gear/Levels/Stats, so why do you want to play a MMORPG without them? It just wouldn't be too RPG like if it didn't include those basic things that started the RPG genre to begin with.
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Could have quoted all of your posts in this thread, I agree with all of them.
If I wanted to play balanced PVP games I'd stick to FPShooters, my MMO's should have the depth to make all of the factors you mention here as variables to make for interesting combat.
DAOC was one such game.
Yeah, I agree as well. My first thought when seeing this thread was "if one doesn't want gear and only wants skill, just play a fps game, problem solved".
Role playing games are about acquiring abilities, gear, spells, etc.
I'm old fashioned and like my gear and my levels.
Here comes the same old response. Someone should really kill this response. Let me break it down for you...
I play an FPS to play and FPS. FPS are nothing like MMORPGS.
I play an MMORPG to play an MMORPG.
So why the fuck are you telling people to go play an fps if they want a less gear/reliant type of mmorpg. Hooray for you. I am glad that you like your gear and your levels. Not everyone is like you. So for them, lets not give them their own type of MMORPG, lets just tell them to play an fps.
You do realize how moronic that attitude is? Its like telling someone, we dont snowboard here, we ski, so ski or leave. No snowboarding ever, because skiing is close enough. If you want to ski, go water ski, its close enough...
whoa, calm down there brother. I'm not telling you to do anything (I put that thought in quotes - as it was my first thought) so sit down and have a tall cold one.
I have no problem with you wanting an mmo that doesn't have gear requirements or levels. I have no problem with you having an mmo with absolutely no pvp. Or with all pvp. Or one where you play dress up. Or sit in a corner and cyber all day.
As I said, I agree with the poster in that I do prefer games with gear and levels so that is very true. But my first thought when seeing the no gea/skill vs gear/level based pvp was exactlly that: fps have no gear and are completely based on skill. Therefore, one wanting a combat game could get what they want. I was thinking purely of the combat and that it's possible to get that type of combat.
And yes, traditionally role playing games are about acquiring gear, skills. Go all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons. Maybe earlier though I can't tell.
However, if you really enjoy crafting and questing but would rather not have things gear based then more power to you.
Your response doesn't have to be jumping up and down "why the fuck... " etc. that would just be equally moronic no?
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One thing I should add is like I'd like the barriers to entry to be a bit low for PvP, with lots of room for upwards advancement.
Getting to max level is one thing, but in WoW for example you need and I mean really NEED Resilience gear to survive long enough with the incredible burst damage in PvP to get anything done.
There is some gear available via crafting that can give you a "base" of reslience to get started in PvP, but that requires either being a crafter or purchasing it. While that is fine in it's own right, at the same time for the player that ONLY wants to PvP they should be able to get a "base set" fairly easily.
How easily?
Within a couple of days for most, maybe 8-10 hours after hitting "max" level you should have all the honor or points or badges or marks etc. neccessary to purchase a complete set of PvP gear. It doesn't have to be the best, anything but, I'm talking total entry level stuff, but in terms of WoW enough Resilience and Health + stats to at least be slightly competitive.
Your opinion is immaterial.
I voted for perfectly balanced albeit, I don't mind items having some influence on my avatar's ability. Really its not so much about the items themselves- it's about 'access' to said items. As long as items are fairly attainable its pretty much all good.
Theres an Achiever vs Killer conflict here sure
This might sound weird but what i might prefer is ability to earn XP to use items (you know unlock it) then from that point on its fairly easy to get the item.
I really thought Guild wars had the right idea in this regard!!!
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I personally would rather an even playing field based on skill rather then gear. Why should the casual gamer be worse off then the hardcore players? I don't have time to play 10 hours aday so its nice to be able to compete when I do log in.
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Well, then we can agree in the sense that things don't always have to be the same. I think if one can find a game that is different, even radically different and there are enough people to play it then all the better.
I do think that people, some people, are slow to change for a variety of reasons. There is something to be said about long roots. There is also something to be said about not becoming stale. Personally, I like both skill and gear. One of the reasons I really liked guild Wars. but then again, I don't mind gear smoothing things over a bit or a bit of randomness such as some of the assassin skills in Lineage 2.
I don't mind time over competition if that is the game I've signed up for. I don't mind competition over time if THAT is the game signed up for.
In some ways it's like saying chess over badminton. some days I want to play chess and enjoy the intricacies of the game. And some days I want to just run around and bat the hell out of the birdie.
Each one offers something different in my mind and I can easily subscribe to either school of thought. However, in the end I do tend to like games such as Lineage 2 because of the great time commitment.
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IMO, you are kinda contradicting "even playing field" with your question. In order for it to be truly even, everyone would have to have the same abilities, health.... everything.
This is my problem with PvP in MMOs even though I still enjoy it to some degree, unless of coarse, I have the misfortune to choose an, or the most underpowered class, then I just cancel.
There are waaaay too many variables in MMO PvP to have anything near an even playing field.
hmm how about skilled based ?
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I think it all should matter.
Character development is at the core of an RPG and gear is part of that. I think WOW is a bad example because WOW is completely gear dependent. At cap level, gear is the only way to advance your character since at cap you have every skill you will get and will never get another one. Other games offer better advancement systems where gear still matters, but not as much since you can get additional skills through PvP ranks, achievements and other such methods. Character development should matter, but I think it currently plays too much of a role in most games.
Skill should also matter since without skill it just becomes a mindless grind. Skill in the sense of twitch I think is way overused though. Knowing and applying things like teamwork, strategy, terrain, and class/skill sets needs to be taken more into consideration in PvP. I think if devs slowed fights down and let them actually play out more that people would get far more enjoyment out of PvP then they do now.
One thing that I think would also help would be if developers were honest about PvP balance. I was an old school DAOC player and I remember some of the balance discussions in that game. The problem was that Mythic never said what they were balancing PvP around. Blizzard said it was Rock Paper Scissors, but even that really turned out to be wrong since they redid the classes and turned everyone into a DPS class. I think if gamers actually knew what the game was balanced around PvP wise then they would be able to better judge balance issues for themselves. A good example is, if I played a caster and I knew that I would always beat a warrior 1v1 but always loose to a ranger I would know not to bitch if I got creamed by them. Likewise, if you say it is balanced around groups, then say you have a group of 6. Any well rounded group of 6 should stand a chance against another well rounded group of 6. There should never be an optimal group make up like I have seen in several games. But if I go out with a healer/support heavy group and get rolled by that well rounded group, hey we should have balanced things out better.
In all honesty, every fight should start at 50/50. Then things like character development, class understanding, use of terrain and mechanics, ect, ect should tilt the scales. It is when just one thing tips the scales massively that people begin to complain.
In a dream world, it would always be 50/50, but in most MMOs as they are now, there's just too many variables to accomplish this. It's often one ability that gives one class a great advantage over another, then there's character stats, then there's gear, and these are never going to be equal across the board in MMO PvP, unless there's no advancement at all, pretty much reducing it to a FPS.
The only way both players could ever have a 50/50 chance is if their characters are clones, the rate of combat doesn't even play a part in this, slower paced combat will just mean a sower death for the disadvantaged character.
Think of it like this, if two people were playing chess, and one of them started with only 1 knight and 1 bishop. There's a possibilty he can win, but he's at a slight disadvantage. Take this and randomly remove different pieces each time the player plays a different opponent. This is the way I see MMO PvP.
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In a dream world, it would always be 50/50, but in most MMOs as they are now, there's just too many variables to accomplish this. It's often one ability that gives one class a great advantage over another, then there's character stats, then there's gear, and these are never going to be equal across the board in MMO PvP, unless there's no advancement at all, pretty much reducing it to a FPS.
The only way both players could ever have a 50/50 chance is if their characters are clones, the rate of combat doesn't even play a part in this, slower paced combat will just mean a sower death for the disadvantaged character.
Think of it like this, if two people were playing chess, and one of them started with only 1 knight and 1 bishop. There's a possibilty he can win, but he's at a slight disadvantage. Take this and randomly remove different pieces each time the player plays a different opponent. This is the way I see MMO PvP.
True it may be a dream world, but I did say that it should start there and then all those factors should come into play and tip the scales.
The problem is that most games now use a mortal combat style of twitch combat that makes skill choice and strategy not matter since it is who can mash the buttons in the right order the fastest.
As for the class skills that tip the balance, that is where devs being honest about what it is balanced around comes in. Blizzard said Rock-Paper-Scissors, while it did not play out this way, at least people had a basis then that caster would always beat warrior would always beat rogue would always beat caster, ect, ect.
this is where your chess analogy works well. In chess both sides start with the same number and type of peices, hence the balanced MMO PVP battle. Now things like understanding of the game mechanics, the stratageies, and such come into play. One player may know something the other doesn't giving them a slight advantage. The other may have a better stratagey giving them an advantage. That is what I was talking about.
In a dream world, it would always be 50/50, but in most MMOs as they are now, there's just too many variables to accomplish this. It's often one ability that gives one class a great advantage over another, then there's character stats, then there's gear, and these are never going to be equal across the board in MMO PvP, unless there's no advancement at all, pretty much reducing it to a FPS.
The only way both players could ever have a 50/50 chance is if their characters are clones, the rate of combat doesn't even play a part in this, slower paced combat will just mean a sower death for the disadvantaged character.
Think of it like this, if two people were playing chess, and one of them started with only 1 knight and 1 bishop. There's a possibilty he can win, but he's at a slight disadvantage. Take this and randomly remove different pieces each time the player plays a different opponent. This is the way I see MMO PvP.
True it may be a dream world, but I did say that it should start there and then all those factors should come into play and tip the scales.
The problem is that most games now use a mortal combat style of twitch combat that makes skill choice and strategy not matter since it is who can mash the buttons in the right order the fastest.
As for the class skills that tip the balance, that is where devs being honest about what it is balanced around comes in. Blizzard said Rock-Paper-Scissors, while it did not play out this way, at least people had a basis then that caster would always beat warrior would always beat rogue would always beat caster, ect, ect.
this is where your chess analogy works well. In chess both sides start with the same number and type of peices, hence the balanced MMO PVP battle. Now things like understanding of the game mechanics, the stratageies, and such come into play. One player may know something the other doesn't giving them a slight advantage. The other may have a better stratagey giving them an advantage. That is what I was talking about.
What you're asking for is impossible IMO unless there is no variation at all between characters, I don't see where you're getting your starting point if the characters are planned to be different classes with different abilities, stats, etc.
Taking the actual players knowledge, and strategy, etc, out of the equation. One class will win all the time or most of the time against others. I think a good way to test this would be with some good AI, since they would behave exactly the same, giving developers an idea of what abilities need to be changed around for better balance. That's one of the major problems I think developers have, is that they use humans to test the effectiveness of classes where there is an oceans worth of extra variables to deal with, not to mention, lying players, biased players, etc.
Another thing I want to disagree on is where you said strategy and skill choice play no part in real time combat. While it's true you don't have the luxury of thinking through every possible move in the moment of battle. You can always keep your experiences in your mind, and think of what you could have done differently to alter the outcome of the battle and practice on putting your new moves to use, which is strategizing.
I can respect your preference for more turn based gameplay, but I don't really think it has a place in MMOs. I prefer real time combat.
They're essentially the same though, with one you just have more time to consider your options as situations occur. We usually tend to end up programming ourselves to do the same thing in a given situation though.