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interesting read imho: what PvP really is
arcdevil
Member Posts: 864
http://www.etherealdawn.net/forum/index.php?page=15
I enjoy pkilling. While after 20 years of gaming (mostly RPGs) I always appreciate the game, of course (or why bother playing it), there is something specific that draws me continuously back to the hunt of another player.
I'm not going to attempt to play morality games with you and justify what I do. You are mature enough to read this, and I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions. I'm simply going to give you a glimpse into that which you loathe, despise and yet, are oddly curious about. All I ask is that as you read with scorn and derision, you ask yourself why you persist in applying real-world morality to the gaming world ... are you so desperate in your beliefs that you cannot accept that part of the fantasy as well?
I'm not evil by nature, certainly not in real-life. One thing you have to be careful of is disassociating the game world from the real. It's a game. Some play to roleplay, some play to be part of a community, I play to be feared. I enjoy those other aspects too, of course, but they pale in comparison to the thrill of the hunt. But if you find yourself upset in real life because you were pkilled, or displaying any other abnormal feelings or traits that give you pause while you pkill, step back, breathe deeply, and play some Tetris or something.
Does it bother your sense of reality that I'm just a normal, every-day guy, working behind a desk 50 a week and married? That I have short-cropped hair and wear collared shirts? That I have more suits than t-shirts? That I have degrees on my wall, and a group of normal friends? Ahh, you expected Charles Manson, perhaps. I wish I could help you, but I'm not wired "wrong," or anti-social, or sacrificing cats in the background to the light of red and black candles while chanting the 32nd Psalm backwards. In fact I'm listening to CNN right now, typing this, while my wife works out to the latest 'Tai Bo' tape in the living room. I'm not working out my agression on you, or emptying my "harbored angst at the world" into our shared fantasy. I simply "am." And you will deal with me, because the minute you entered this game you made your choice.
There is no honor in gaming period, regardless of what some tell you, so I won't argue whether this thing is honorable or not . I simply enjoy the heart-pounding chase, the imagined panicked look in the player's eyes as he desperately cries out for salvation and finds only a seeking blade. I thrill in the turmoil my soul enters as I smile wickedly, looting your corpse of all of your worldly possessions, while at the same time some vestige of real-world morality plays the Golden Rule game with me. And then I pouch your goods and with a rejuvenated spring in my step, begin the search for a new target worthy of my attention.
Does it bother me on some level that I've destroyed that which you worked for, that if we take it outside the boxes connected to each other that I have in some way harmed you, as you keep reminding me in between all the "f*** you's" and their ilk? No, because my alphabet, unlike yours, has 26 letters. Someone obviously forget to put the G, A, M and E in yours. I don't pity you. You made a choice to come here. I exist simply to remind you of your choice.
I won't reply to you if you ask me "why?" when you re-enter the game. I won't return your goods. I won't listen to your threats, or your promises, or your whining. You are forgotten, lest you raise my ire again, another name on a long list of people who asked the same questions you now ask. I won't give you back your imagined sense of safety that I destroyed, standing over your corpse. The online world is not all pretty pictures and safety, and I'm your tourguide inside the shadow. The laughter you hear in the night, as you flee for safety? You know who's come calling. Run or die.
I don't gloat, or taunt, nor do I brag. I simply do, and I do so with methodical, calculated precision. It's not personal, and it's not business either. It's what I enjoy. I won't rub my deed in your face after-the-fact, because you are defeated, and that crosses a line I simply don't want to cross.
Ironically, you created me. You came to my game, where PvP is law. You thought you could handle it, that the risks didn't apply to you, that your friends would protect you, that no-one would harm you because you harm no-one else, that although it said it was a PvP game, that you would be safe. You're wrong, very, very wrong. It's you I come for specifically, with enlightenment at the end of a pointed blade, with a nightmare ambush from the empty shadow, with a lesson of the harsh reality of this game written in crimson hues on the ground as you crumple for the last time.
Don't whine. Don't bitc.h to the game masters and admin. Don't ask me to come fulfill your sense of indignant righteousness and fair-play by dueling you, or "fighting you fair." I already did, because nothing's fair here, so everything's fair here. If you cannot defend what you have from the predator, then you don't deserve to have it.
Do not bleat at me, little sheep, for this path you chose of your own free will. You knew the wolves lurked here, you simply chose to ignore them. Well I didn't ignore you, regardless of the cloak of illusion you cast about yourself as you seek your place in this world.
- A Shriner, written for ArcticMUD circa 1992
Comments
Sounds like an internet tough guy. That wasn't enlightening at all.
tl;dr>>>>>>
1) I'm a normal guy, not a psycho
2) You chose to play the game, don't whine when I listen to you
3) I like to hunt people online
4) You chose to play the game, don't whine when I listen to you
5) I like to hunt people online
6) You chose to play the game, don't whine when I listen to you
7) I like to hunt people online
8) You chose to play the game, don't whine when I listen to you
Sounded more like
1. I enjoy killing other players much more than mobs
2. You knew what the game included when you played it
3. Leave your assumptions about me at the door.
4. Don't bitch or cry about it
5. I won't taunt you
6. I like to RP the part of the bad guy.
I would think more people would appreciate a player-killer that did his thing and moved on silently to the very vocal
uber leet people they seem to have a problem with.
Everybody plays each other. That's all anybody ever does. We play parts.
R.I.P Chikaca Whachuchu
This type of PvPer doesn't bother me. He enjoys killing players and taking their loot, but he doesn't brag or gloat, doesn't insult the victim publicly and doesn't continually grief the same player. And since he enjoys doing this solo apparently, he's not zerging you with a bunch of other asshats. This type of PvPer is welcome in any PvP game, imo.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I am assuming this asshat enjoys killing those players who are not his equal. I had an answer for that in UO. My ghost would haunt them until they got disgusted and logged off.
Author of the Amazon kindle book, The Clan and the Crown
What an absolutely pointless display of narcissism. If I wanted to listen to someone masturbate, I'd just call a phone sex line.
And isn't it both contradictory and disingenuous to claim normality while at the same time painting some grandios, romanticized image of your internal life?
I want that five minutes of my life back.
“The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters.” - attributed to Genghis Khan.
What article explains applies very much to the real life, but in modern societies, especially in the West, we have protected our society with enforceable law and order. It is not difficult to find countries in the world where this is not the case and behaviour what is explained in the article is common place. Some people are more prone to that kind of behaviour. In our protected society when a person behaves like that we call them sociopaths and phychopats.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I remember when I first started playing on a PvP server in Warcraft.
I had been gaming for a long time in one way or other. I carried with me all sorts of baggage - ideas about what was fair and what wasn't. 2v1 wasn't fair. Ganking greys wasn't fair. I wouldn't do these things.
Since then, my server has become one of the most active world PvP (i.e. ganking) in europe. After several years of playing on a PvP server - I have been ganked and CC'd numerous times. I'm not unused to seeing summoning stones and instance entrances guarded by entire Horde raids. Popular questing areas, such as the "Sons of Hodir" zones, are patrolled by furious gladiators, eager to kill any fresh 80s they come accross.
So all those notions of honour and fair play are long gone. If you play by such rules, you are playing with one hand behind your back - because the other side will not obey any such rules and will kill you mercilessly.
Now, if it's an easy kill, I'll take it, without hesitation.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Same here. Never had any problem with PKs like this. They're hunter killers, not griefers. At the same time, I can kinda understand why some can be upset by his playstyle.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
If you have read books about game desing, especially relating to video games, morality/rules/ethics are often discussed. One argument is that should video games promote psychopathic behaviour?
The person who wrote the article provided an interesting glimpse to his psyche. I know that type of players. And not many of us, if any, are immune to adrenaline rushes that come from excitement of combat. It is only about 3-5% of males and only about 1% of women who belong to the group that the article describes.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
If you have read books about game desing, especially relating to video games, morality/rules/ethics are often discussed. One argument is that should video games promote psychopathic behaviour?
At the same time, we have television "reality" shows which promote every level of immorality and disloyaty for financial gain.
Survvivor, Big Brother, among many others that would have contestants make friends, nurture that friendship/alliance to ultimately stab them in the back to win.
For a guy who doesn't brag or gloat that document was sure full of self-aggrandizing imagery. Personally he seems to take so much pleasure in making other folks miserable (and obviously he does care how he's seen by them because that's who this gloat letter is written to and for) I think maybe he needs a new wife and some new threads. Clearly he's not happy with his supposedly nice and normal suburban life since he's at pains to point out just how nice and normal it is. Methinks he protests too much.
No, he needs to go inflict pain on folks who can't defend themselves. Maybe taking up basketball with the guys would get some of this disturbed anger out of his system in a more constructive and healthy way?
Always notice what you notice.
I know, but they do careful psyche profiles for most of those game/reality shows. They carefully select contestants that promote conflict and that create friction. One of the reasons why people watch them is because people in those shows behave in a way that is not the norm.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
PvP is Pew versus Pew
This is from 1992. The world of games changed since then, and what especially changed is the way companies make money. That guy is actually doing what his MUD was about. He loves himself quite a lot, and frankly, his tone is in line with other, similar essays about PvP during later years in EQ1, but it really doesnt apply today that much.
The problem, or rather, the reason why a player like this is a problem, stems from the different audience. He claims its a game. That is absolutely true, but the modern MMO audience expects entertainment from a game, and companies need the money of the people who wish to be entertained. Its simply bad business to create a game where you feed the entertainment of some players with the unhappyness of others.
Pure, unfettered and unregulated PvP worked when the guy wrote that article, it worked 10 years later, but it stopped working shortly after due to the change of audience.
There are so many different motivations and forms of PvP, what this essay describes is just one of them, and frankly, its one of the smallest niches even among PvPers. The freeform FFA unregulated PvP is basically just a small subgroup of the already small niche of PvP players.
Bleh. The guy is not a PvP-er but a griefer... and you have griefers in any mmo, including the purely PvE ones. Anyone who got ninjaed or got his kill stolen knows what I mean.
I'm a carebear PvPer who dislikes PvE and I cannot relate to this guy at all.
You can approach PvP as an exciting light-hearted competetive way to spend your time in front of a computer or you can see it as a way of getting some kind of sadistic compensation for your ego. I got lively weekly boardgames meetings with my pals and I make it my policy to never invite back guys who seem to consider their victories as some kind of a proof of being uber. However it seems that PvP bits of mmos are simply crawling with these guys...
However imo the games rulesets are to blame as well for these kinds of guys... Environment ultimately dictates behavior and al that... For example I felt griefed to no end on a WoW PvP server but I never had the feeling that I'm being taken advantage of for someones sadistic pleasure while playing WAR which is much much more PvP oriented.
Imo there is still no real quality pure PvP mmo on the market. (tho GW and WAR come pretty close... however I still consider them hybrids) Until the devs get rid of that griefing PK complex out of their minds when they start thinking of PvP we won't have a truly enjoyable PvP game... which is a damn shame.
Where's the "interesting read" mentioned in the subject line? All I see is some blowhard prattling on about how great he thinks he is.
PvP is fun. Guys like this are boring.
Being a huge fan of PvP I agree with you. I played on a wow pvp server and getting ganked by someone who is 10 levels higher and geared out much better was aggravating. To me, it's about the challenge or cat and mouse style gameplay. After the first time I killed someone in a pvp zone I had a very "meh" feeling about it.
I prefer pvp to meaningful in the context of the game, not just for the sake of killing other players, or I prefer it to be a group based system. (Preferabbly not an arena because it's just basically a box, there is no surprise or stalking to it.)
I don't think many gamers today will relate to gamers of the old times because much of the roleplay or filling a role within a game world in games are gone.
Same here. I'm a CareBear in terms of MMO's. I've yet to see one that does PvP right. If I want PvP, I'll go play UT3 or Quake4. Games that are designed from the ground up to be skill/twitch based PvP. I can only shake my head and roll my eyes at these types of players. The world has moved on from those types of games. Such players are bad for a companies business model.
Same here. I'm a CareBear in terms of MMO's. I've yet to see one that does PvP right. If I want PvP, I'll go play UT3 or Quake4. Games that are designed from the ground up to be skill/twitch based PvP. I can only shake my head and roll my eyes at these types of players. The world has moved on from those types of games. Such players are bad for a companies business model.
Oh I'm a fan of twitch based FPSs as well and ET:QW is still my fave... however imo the typical mmo combat model can be made very skill-based as well.. For example there is Guild Wars which does rely on skill, teamwork and a good choice of abilities rather than time spent in the game (in the form of uber gear and levels). We can only hope someone will finally make a non-twitchy and yet skill based true PvP persistent mmo... /fingerscrossed
But this needs a serious change of perception what PvP really is. For too long PvP has been equated to a kind of stealth griefing - which is mostly due to PvP happening within rulesets that are not designed with PvP in mind. Harsh death penalties and steep power curves make sense in PvE mmos... maybe. However I consider them completely inappropriate to PvP style of gameplay - if only because the penalties combined with the feeling of unfairness from steep power curves really do make every PvP encounter seem as a form of griefing in disguise. When we finally get rid of those 2 old-school concepts we might finally have chance of getting a truly popular PvP mmo.
IMO, all PvP is fine. The days of "griefing" are gone, or at least now irrelevant.
There are so many online games to choose from. It's not like the days when either you played UO, or you didn't play.
If you're in the game you're having fun, even if the game allows what might be techincally described as "greifing".
Otherwise you move on ot the rest of the list over there on the left of this screen.
I don't really care whether you brag or don't brag or trash talk in PvP games. There's an ignore button in every game. It's usually /ignore.
Your entirely post is full of self defeating words. You said one thing and another to prove something, but you proved yourself wrong to the more decerning eyes and here is why. BTW, not doing this out of scorn or all the reasons you claim to have. I was mature enough to read through yours, now read through mine. They are in orange after each of your paragraph.
I know this is likely not an original post, however, I teared it to pieces with basic logic and reasoning anyways. Easy peasy.
The reason I did this? Much like the original writer tried (but failed) to convey. I have no real reason to do this, I do this because I just "am". You will deal with me the moment this make it in front of my eyes.
Longest Moot point article ever. Just PK, don't bother saying things.
Agreed, guy can you be anymore full of yourself? By even posting this thread you are trying to justify a pvp style in a narcissistic, ego stroking manner, look at how great I and "normal" I am. And to think that peoples opinion of you as a Manson type is so far off base. In fact, the image that comes to mind for me is more along the lines of Ted Bundy, you know people who have done very heinous things, but appeared very "normal".
^ this.
Everyone who got backstabbed should've patted him on the shoulder and congratulated him on his awesomeness. If you dare to disagree on his awesomeness, he will whine on a forum about you being a carebear. Of course that doesn't make him a carebear in turn, because he's awesome, and you're not. Oh, and he's got a wife, too. How awesome is that?
Hype train -> Reality
WoW, it's kind of funny watching people get worked up over a post that is 17 years old.
And Neosai,, you didn't shred his posts with logic for example..
"There is no honor in games" from him,, and you're reply is "I can't bring my honor?"
Honor is a subjective term. Japanese warriors would commit Hairi kairi (sp) to keep honor intact. I"m pretty sure that Spartans and Vikings would see suicide, as opposed to actually dying in battle, as dishonorable.
In PvP games - solo players find adds into their fight dishonorable.
8 vs 8 In DaoC used to argue the zerg or adds were dishonorable.
Your vision of "honor' and my vision might not meet. Or anyone else's vision for that matter. So as long as it's allowed in game mechanics the term "honor" is thrown out the window and replaced with survival or victor.