Learning from other genres

Turel_Azure

I'm going to go ahead and assume everyone on this board is in agreement that MMOs in general need to evolve.

So what I bring to the table today is the concept of other genres....games outside of the MMO genre, specifically.

 

What can any MMO development teams take away from other games as mechanics or systems that could be wonderfully implemented into an MMO?

 

My first example would have to be the love-it-or-hate-it series of Monster Hunter.  The game has many aspects that make it reallyunpalatable to a good portion of gamers, but within it there are absolute gems of game mechanics.

We'll start with the Pros.

First off, you have the item crafting system, which is the core of the game.  Lacking any form of 'level up' you simply fight monsters by improving your gear.  Even then, the difference between starting weapons and ending weapons is often a mere 100%.  What I mean is that the end game weapons are only twice as powerful as the starting ones, which when compared to many MMOs, is not that much (the exception of this is armor, which honestly has arguable value overall).  So from this, we could take in that crafting items using parts of bosses is a great way for people to customize their player, without the sort of finding weapons all over the place in dungeons.  It could be a core system for item creation, or simply an aspect within an MMO.

 

Second, you have very cinematic fights that involve much more than simply having enough DPS, a tank, and what have you.  Monster Hunter fights are always epic feeling, as you have to actually get out of the way of monster attacks, as well as hit them in the right spot.  In fact, hitting them in different spots with different weapons has different results!   Hammers to the head stun them, swords to the legs can knock them over.  Some monsters you definately start out fearing.  The fights are very action oriented, but they are not  speed oriented as much as you'd think, but much more tactical, mostly due to the majority of weapons available being extremely slow.  Now, I'm not using this to advocate MMOs to all be so action oriented to such an extreme (Monster Hunter is VERY HARD), but to use some of the concepts for actually making fights like in Monster Hunter, requiring more than a button press or two and some moving around, and some fights like action games in general.  I think you'd find people FAR more satisfied with beating the monster, rather than just getting the loot. 

For an example of a Monster Hunter fight, look here.  (It's 9 minutes long, so just skip around to find a glimpse)

 

As for the things to learn from Monster Hunter in terms of WHAT TO AVOID, there are a few things for sure:

 

Avoid fights that are TOO LONG.  Most of the fights in Monster Hunter can last up to HALF AN HOUR.  That's far too long, in my opinion.  I understand they are tough monsters, and so what I would do instead is make their weak points MUCH weaker, when they are hit.

Secondly, the camera and controls are just garbage, at least on the PSP.    Having to use the seperate pad to control the camera is just bad, and it's far too difficult in the heat of battle.  So, my vote goes for more automatic cameras when fighting something.

Lastly, the multi-player targeting is somewhat random, but for the games benefit, all monster attacks have a wide range.  What really becomes interesting (and frustrating) is the fights with multiple monsters, as the thinking changes entirely.

 

So what games and genres do you think MMOs should learn from, both good and bad things?  I covered a semblance of an action game, with lots of RPG elements, and I'll be adding more to here in future posts.  Give us your thoughts!

Scot

Anything that takes us somewhere different in MMO combat is worth a look at, AoC upped the anti there and I hear CotSB tried something new.

From Solo games lets have cities that live and breath like GTA IV and Assassins Creed. A MMO like CoX does cities well, but they are a backdrop to your quests. In GTA IV you get the sense of interacting with the city constantly.

A mixture of text to read, video sequences and lore books would give us something for everyone and diversify the way we get told about the world we are playing in. Too much of one method is a recipe for dullness.

There are many sources of inspiration MMO’s can draw from if only companies have the courage to try them out.

Turel_Azure

Sorry to almost derail my own thread, but what the heck is CotSB?  All these game acronyms can give me a headache to be honest.  I guess that's more the fault of making ridiculously long names for some of the MMOs....

But to also point out another example, it would be a definate shift from above:  Little Planet.

 

What can MMOs take from it?  Simple.

Little Planet has an unprecidented design for allowing constant flows of player generated content into the game.  The end result is that the game is ever changing and evolving thanks to the players themselves.

So MMOs should grow some balls, and set up a player generated content system.  Even if it has to be submitted through a team of people, that's still SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper to bring in content that way as regular updates.  A smart company would actually have such a system supplement their in house content.  The result is a game that increases it's content load at a MUCH faster rate than others. 

 

And this need not apply to items alone.

 

Bring in another game: Fallout 3.   Fallout 3 brought in a mechanic that has not been seen in MMOs that I know of, but has been around for decades: random encounters.  Many fights in the outdoors of Fallout 3 are actually random encounters.  There's about 60 or so.

 

Now imagine if players could generate encounters.  Suddenly, you have areas with dozens and dozens of possible encounters.  Mix them up with Fallout 3's ability to not have them all be combat, and you have yourself a pretty little game engine that could.

Death1942

CoH has custom made quests...and has it's fair share of problems due to it (exploiting the system...ect) but i don't really give 2 ****s about someone levelling up faster than me just for grinding these quests.

 

As for other elements...why not toss in some RTS stuff.  Why can't we see SWG style placing of faction buildings and units coupled with a faction based conflict? 

e.g Placing castles (made by the players) in strategic spots for defence of lands

Czzarre

CoX may have had a lot of issues from their public quest development system...but I believe that is the direction that MMOs will need to move.

The internet is all about user driven content, from Youtube to blogs to  wikipedia. Yet the MMO game world is fairly unchangeable save for the character's themselves and which flag flies over a castle/keep.

I believe that whichever MMO that  can push their way into player driven content (and work out all the kinks) will find themselves with a very popular game.

Dewm

 

Take this from whatever game you please. but I really want more verticle landscape (I know spelling sucks)

Maybe not scale a cliff. but why can't I walk up a huge mountain and look down on a thriving city below? WHY? its freaking 2009!

Scot

The Chronicles of  Spellborn was one of the MMO's I refered to.

Don't forget NWN (Never Winter Nights) great modular design that is akin to the modding you get in solo games and already found in that MMO.

Illius

I just want to meaningfully impact the game world around me.  Take the focus off of "self" and put it more on the "we" or "us" as a realm or I guess guild.

Another thing that current MMO's can learn from previous games/genres is to build some atmosphere.  I remember walking through crypts in Neverwinter Nights and being struck by creepy sounds that made you wonder what was lurking beyond the torchlight and what kind of horrors you'll have to face down arouind the next corner.  Same with the woods you'd travel through.  There's a lot more ways to interact with the player then just visuals.  There's a reason I have ears and I'd like them to be part of my gaming experience.

rounner

To pull the 'creepy atmosphere' and user generated content issues together:

The reason mmo's currently dont have creepy atmosphere is because the dungeon has been run 1000 times and everyone is rushing through. If its your first time no one cares, you just follow the others. Traps dont even slow people down (eg DDO). With player content, we are guaranteed new things more regularily which means new dungeons that haven't been mapped and minmaxed and had the adventure sucked out of them.

Neosai

I have to disagree.  The MMORPG industry is already evolving.  Evolution is a long process, however if you are worried you won't live to see it, then that is a personal issue.

What you are actually asking for is mutation.  You want a game suddenly make revolutionary changes in a short period of time.  Let's assume this mutation is heading in the right direction.  Everyone will simply copy and improve on it, and we are back on the revolutinoary track. Only way this can happen is if one person have the following.

1) A large sum of capital that is not borrowed from others. (This sum will be more than 5 times the normal cost)

2) Talent and vision, but remains pragmatic.

3) Passion for developing MMORPG not for the sake of making money.

4) Able to find and lead a talented development team to achieve his/her vision.

5) The imagination required to create something unique and complex, yet acceptable to the masses.

The chance of someone with the above 5 traits making a MMORPG is rather, slim.  Heck, if I win the lotto jackpot I'd give it a shot, however I will most likely fail.

Summing it up, you'd need one talented person and nearly endless resources in order to cause this mutation to happen in the MMORPG industry, however it will still take about 5-10 years to develop the said game.  I suppose if you toss more money in it you can shorten the time.

Stilla119

The game you are making has to have a following. Good to be considered Pop culture/cult movement. How you go about this will do wonders for your game.

(Hannah Montana video games for Nintendo DS and Wii platforms have sold 1.7 million games in the U.S., as of February 2008.) Are we for real?