Really they should make a game that keeps everyone busy..And never mind the bull crap of solo and grouping survey..100s of games are made and those games are for the players of a IQ of 1..I have a Pc with well over 500 gb of free space and the Rams i have is 4gb..In this day and age, games can have allot more to them. 10gb for a game can keep both groups happy with extra to do..
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
Really they should make a game that keeps everyone busy..And never mind the bull crap of solo and grouping survey..100s of games are made and those games are for the players of a IQ of 1..I have a Pc with well over 500 gb of free space and the Rams i have is 4gb..In this day and age, games can have allot more to them. 10gb for a game can keep both groups happy with extra to do..
I don't think your IQ is much higher than 1 either.
You DO know that the constraints of content has little to do with your RAM & HD space, don't you?
Content is very expensive to make. Do you know how much man-hours is needed to make a zone?
Really they should make a game that keeps everyone busy..And never mind the bull crap of solo and grouping survey..100s of games are made and those games are for the players of a IQ of 1..I have a Pc with well over 500 gb of free space and the Rams i have is 4gb..In this day and age, games can have allot more to them. 10gb for a game can keep both groups happy with extra to do..
I don't think your IQ is much higher than 1 either.
You DO know that the constraints of content has little to do with your RAM & HD space, don't you?
Content is very expensive to make. Do you know how much man-hours is needed to make a zone?
Do you? Because the answer is not very simple, different zones take different amount of man hours... same with content,, different content takes different amounts of man hours.
Anything that puts us in a situation that makes players interact with each other in a MMO is worth while. Grouping is an easy way to do that, yes it often fails in that aim but I don’t expect perfection. In SW’s you had to go and see a doctor and entertainer to get healed apparently, another fine way to get some player interaction. In EQ you could learn race languages by being around when other people who spoke in them. PvP is another great form of player interaction. That’s what this is all about, it is not a MMO if you just see players running past you or standing next to you at a trader. The point of playing online is the enormous potential playing with other players have, soloing is the antithesis of that potential.
A great example of player interaction in EQ1 pre-pop is transport, people having to use Druids and Wizard's to port you about, it was great, giving a real feel of size and mini economy out of it.
Regarding SWG and the whole healer, entertainer debacle... I was there in beta when they "tried this out". You had to wait in line for an Entertainer or Doctor class to heal you before you could go out and play again. THESE PEOPLE WERE CHARGING FOR IT!!! Charging you to just stand in line, while they hit a macro. You literally couldn't play(kill things) until another player allowed you to;) Lets just say that concept never got out of beta=) Anyone who would approve of something so asinine is nutty. About as fun as waiting for a boat for 20 minutes, or requiring other players to allow you the courtesy of travel=) SImply astounding how little value some people put on their in-game time.
It creates player interaction and gives further purpose and difference to classes etc. Just like people who like to craft and get involved in the economics, there are more levels of what people want from a game than just 'hack 'n' slash'.
Very true, but wouldn't players who like to socially mingle do it no matter what?
It is more fun, more meaningful, and more likely to occur between strangers when it serves a purpose and is meaningful and required in the game, rather than just to hang out when you could be making xp, because you think each other is so cool you'll stop playing the game just to chat.
There is a marathon race with a big trophy, and international acclaim.
But wouldn't Lance Armstrong just do marathons by himself because he likes to bike? Well, sure, but he's more likely to train and do a marathon when there's a trophy, even though he actually does like to bike. .
In my opinion Solo must be available or I am not interested.
The game doesnt need to gear itself around solo but there has to be a solo option for people like me. I play a very arradic play schedule sometimes Im on for 10-20 mins off for 15 back for 30 off for 20 back for 15 etc etc
This type of time makes group stuff near impossible but I can do my own thing during that time I can play log off in a seconds notice to leave and come back continue what I was doing but with a group you cant leave them before your done they counting on everyone in the group.
I enjoy some group play but I only do it when I have enough time available to where I can play and finish whatever the group is doing, aside from when I have a big chunck of time to clear something I need a solo option or I cant do anything.
Look at a game like FFXI when I was near max level the time it could take to make a party was usualy all the play time I had for that day. 0 option of solo aside from professions / farming, I tried to get groups but its not soemthing you can do fast mind you things have changed there and they have stuff in place to make that a lot easier than it was when i played but the point is still true I quit because I had 0 solo option.
I dont think solo gear should be > than a group who take on a hard boss but I want a solo option in the game for me, as well as group options. which is also more true to RPG situations. to only play with a group 100% of the time isnt very RP in reality you would do a mixture of solo / small group / large group.. Even frodo had to go on alone in the lord of the rings at one point and also duo'd with sam so why should we always have to be in a 25 man team or just sit in towna nd wait for a new team?
Don't force players to group because there will be bad consequences,
instead encourage them to group because there will be good consequences.
Basic human psychology. Apply it to gaming.
Nowadays?
They are positively reinforceing solo play or negatively reinforcing group play until you get to "end game" when the dynamic does a 180 in the other direction.
Problem is.. Games not adapting to the present social behavior of gamers.
Like in real life, people spend less and less time with each other.. people have jobs, weird schedules, kids, etc etc.. the whole social society concept we were used to is vannishing.
If a game wants to be sucesseful it has to go mainly for single player and only after for teamplaying. Most players wont stay in a game demanding a lot of time like they stood say 5 or 6 years ago.
The general been there done that feeling, the wish to play a game without drama etc etc are needs developers need to adress when designing a game.
Does it mean people back to single player games? No.. people got addicted to online gaming.. its just a matter of providing the unstresseful single player experience in an online game.. pretty simple.
So I heard from a couple people that post here on their ideas of soloing I heard that people who raid should not be allowed gear that gives them huge benefits over those who solo I also hear a lot that there should be solo dungeons where people go through dungeons solo and get loot on par to those who go in group dungeons.
Why? Soloing is easy, if it was hard you would need more than one person. and if everything can be soloed and not grouped what does that say for classes that have it harder to solo than those who dont IE pet classes vs healing classes. Should people who play pet classes be allowed to plow through content and get gear easier and faster than those who have harder jobs/classes?
Why do people like soloing in a mmorpg? You plow through content no matter how slow you take it, its still fast when soloing, you solo and beat all the content then what? You want for a new patch to come a long when can take months for more content. Soloing is what is killing mmorpgs now a days. Even single player RPGS do not have soloing, you are always grouped with other characters or NPCs. Any so called solo rpg IE legend of zelda is classified as an adeventure game or hack and slash or dungeon crawler not a RPG. Companys today are trying their hardest to balance soloing and group play that it will always hurt group play. The easier you make solo the less people want to group, the less content there will be to group. Lets take WoW for example after you solo all the way to 80 there are what 7 small man dungeons and 4 raids, before content patch there were three PVE raids.
Now take those numbers and what % of the content is that? Especially for raiders they have to see the same four raids over and over and over again just to get loot. Solo players have many different sites and quest to go by alone. The instances now a days even for any new mmorpg are just that fast instansted content, group play does not even have options we are told to go here if we want to group.
Yes we can group in solo content but why? we are hit hard for exp if we invite some one, the quest are longer, not kill quest but definately loot quest are much longer. It is much more of a pain in the ass to group than to solo in the solo aspect of the game. and even if we did group it just makes the game 100x more easier than it already is, grouping is supposed to be a challenge, overcoming challenges with others not plow through content asap. Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No
You miss the entire reason people prefer soloing. Hence, your thread and opinion are way off base. Your total reasoning is flawed because you base your argument, as most do, on the idea people want to solo.
Wrong! Most soloers like myself solo because we have no choice. Many developers have yet to come up with a way to make grouping fast and effective for a player base that has changed over the years. I simple do not have the time anymore I use to. The other night I signed up for a raid in WoW. The time plan was about 2 hours. Well that is fantasy. Took over an hour to get everyone together at the aggreed upon time. 2 players did not show and we had to wait and try to find replacements. I had 2.5 hours alotted and we barely got started when I had to leave. So then I became the villian because I was ready to go and scheduled my time for the raid but it went way beyond the time it should have taken. They ended up spending almost 4 hours on what was planned as a 2 hour group.
Now do not tell me that is just wow, my guild, or my server. This has happened in almost every mmo I have played. That is why we solo not because we prefer it. It is because the developers need to rethink how you group, amounts of players needed, and length of group acctivities. Because of this situation, I also agree solo rewards need to be as good as group rewards. I pay the same money as everyone else does to play. If I solo and soloing is built into the game, as in WoW, then there should be equal rewards available to all who pay to play. That does not mean it has to be easy, another flawed reasoning on the OPs part. You see it is not that we want to solo. Many of the games have made it impossible to group as a priorty for a lot of players.
2) Instead of split shared experience hitting a lower ratio when one or more people group together to do overland monster kill grinding, it should go UP significantly to MAKE players want to seek out pickup groups for afternoons of mindless leveling. A person with only a couple of hours to solo should be able to make some strides in leveling, but the game rules should be in place so that if that person had more time to kill to commit with a group, that it would be by far in their best interest to do it. So, the mimimaxer will just pug everything and rush to the end, all are one off random PUGs, no talk no nothing just group, kill, disband or next dunegon.
If all the players are min-maxer, you can force them to do anything beyond using the most efficient way to advance their char anyway. You may as well give them give them solo-hack-n-slash content.
You miss the entire reason people prefer soloing. Hence, your thread and opinion are way off base. Your total reasoning is flawed because you base your argument, as most do, on the idea people want to solo.
Wrong! Most soloers like myself solo because we have no choice. Many developers have yet to come up with a way to make grouping fast and effective for a player base that has changed over the years. I simple do not have the time anymore I use to. The other night I signed up for a raid in WoW. The time plan was about 2 hours. Well that is fantasy. Took over an hour to get everyone together at the aggreed upon time. 2 players did not show and we had to wait and try to find replacements. I had 2.5 hours alotted and we barely got started when I had to leave. So then I became the villian because I was ready to go and scheduled my time for the raid but it went way beyond the time it should have taken. They ended up spending almost 4 hours on what was planned as a 2 hour group.
Now do not tell me that is just wow, my guild, or my server. This has happened in almost every mmo I have played. That is why we solo not because we prefer it. It is because the developers need to rethink how you group, amounts of players needed, and length of group acctivities. Because of this situation, I also agree solo rewards need to be as good as group rewards. I pay the same money as everyone else does to play. If I solo and soloing is built into the game, as in WoW, then there should be equal rewards available to all who pay to play. That does not mean it has to be easy, another flawed reasoning on the OPs part. You see it is not that we want to solo. Many of the games have made it impossible to group as a priorty for a lot of players.
CoX has a solution to this, they general instances dynamically, depending on number of players and average levels of the group. So you do not need a full gorup to start.
Trouble is assigning loot table. If the loot is randomly generated, there will be lots of drops quality and people cannot easily minimax, much like pre-CU SWG gear. If loot is fixed then people will kick some to improve chance of getting loot, taking just enough to invoke the desired loot table. CoX does not have loot like WoW, so this issue is mute to CoX.
In the interest of saving time, I've paraphrased and provided my own opinion.
Why? Soloing is easy, .....Response: No ..... it isn't.
Why do people like soloing in a mmorpg? ......Response: Because its fun.
Soloing is what is killing mmorpgs now a days....Response: No.... it isn't.
Even single player RPGS do not have soloing, you are always grouped with other characters or NPCs...Response: Single player games do have solo content and you are not ALWAYS grouped with ..... you get the picture.
Companys today are trying their hardest to balance soloing and group play that it will always hurt group play...Response: If they were really trying their hardest to balance gameplay, they would eliminate "loot centric" concepts.
Especially for raiders they have to see the same four raids over and over and over again just to get loot....Response: You just pointed out one of the REAL reasons MMORPGs are slowly dying. Unimaginative developers churning out incomplete, loot centric trash just to make a buck.
Yes we can group in solo content but why? ...Response: I have to agree with you there, it is silly to group for solo content.
It is much more of a pain in the ass to group than to solo ,,,,,blah, blah, blah... grouping is supposed to be a challenge, overcoming challenges with others not plow through content asap....Response: It is a pain in the ass to group and the biggest challenge is dealing with all the asshats
Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No
Response: I am still waiting for the MMO that makes soloing the main aspect of mmorpgs. All the games I've played require grouping/raiding to get the "Uber loots".
Personally, I think making the game loot centric is a complete sellout by the devs.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
I did not realise about the SW ‘wait in line’ to be healed, standing in a queue is not exactly the type of interaction I was thinking of. But you get the idea, it could be just for a buff which ‘entertainers’ can only give out in Cantinas, something like that.
Diversity of play style is the key and soloing does not lead to diversity. It leads to one style which excludes any other. This is the real problem, no matter how good they make the soloing you cut of nearly all other styles of play. This leads to no innovation in game play, just better soloing.
Guild Wars - It has henchmen/heroes. If you can find other people, great. If you can't, you have alternatives. (On the down side, most the game is designed for a full party, which can get a bit old if you are playing solo). But I think more games need this.
It also has mission waiting areas, which makes it easier to find people to do them with. I'm not sure how you'd apply that to a more traditional MMORPG, with quests, maybe some sort of adventurers guild or something
Atlantica Online - it rewards grouping by giving extra experience. And don't have a group for group quests? In most cases, you can use a scroll to get surrounding mobs to help you temporarily. While probably too expensive to do all the time, it's useful when you can't find anyone.
I also like how it has in game guild ads (you can apply online), a peer channel (need someone your level? You can the 30 people closest to you in level, and talk to people within a 10 level range). And it's version of raids come in individual forms, too. If you can't spend 2 hours doing a huge dungeon, you can spend 20-60 minutes doing a shorter one.
I did not realise about the SW ‘wait in line’ to be healed, standing in a queue is not exactly the type of interaction I was thinking of. But you get the idea, it could be just for a buff which ‘entertainers’ can only give out in Cantinas, something like that. Diversity of play style is the key and soloing does not lead to diversity. It leads to one style which excludes any other. This is the real problem, no matter how good they make the soloing you cut of nearly all other styles of play. This leads to no innovation in game play, just better soloing.
SWG did have the doctor buffs which were a 'must' for serious combat. So you would have a doctor standing in a major city with a long line of people buying a buff and then moving on. The more enterprising doctors would setup a house in a location near a mission hub and then leave their character in there as a bot. A person would pay a fee for entering the house, trigger the bot's macro and then get their buff.
The buffs were a 'speed bump' on the way to doing what you wanted to be doing so people took the fastest, least painful way to getting them. In the end it really did not create a more social aspect to the game beyond what people already di to socialize.
You miss the entire reason people prefer soloing. Hence, your thread and opinion are way off base. Your total reasoning is flawed because you base your argument, as most do, on the idea people want to solo.
Wrong! Most soloers like myself solo because we have no choice. Many developers have yet to come up with a way to make grouping fast and effective for a player base that has changed over the years. I simple do not have the time anymore I use to. The other night I signed up for a raid in WoW. The time plan was about 2 hours. Well that is fantasy. Took over an hour to get everyone together at the aggreed upon time. 2 players did not show and we had to wait and try to find replacements. I had 2.5 hours alotted and we barely got started when I had to leave. So then I became the villian because I was ready to go and scheduled my time for the raid but it went way beyond the time it should have taken. They ended up spending almost 4 hours on what was planned as a 2 hour group.
Now do not tell me that is just wow, my guild, or my server. This has happened in almost every mmo I have played. That is why we solo not because we prefer it. It is because the developers need to rethink how you group, amounts of players needed, and length of group acctivities. Because of this situation, I also agree solo rewards need to be as good as group rewards. I pay the same money as everyone else does to play. If I solo and soloing is built into the game, as in WoW, then there should be equal rewards available to all who pay to play. That does not mean it has to be easy, another flawed reasoning on the OPs part. You see it is not that we want to solo. Many of the games have made it impossible to group as a priorty for a lot of players.
CoX has a solution to this, they general instances dynamically, depending on number of players and average levels of the group. So you do not need a full gorup to start.
Trouble is assigning loot table. If the loot is randomly generated, there will be lots of drops quality and people cannot easily minimax, much like pre-CU SWG gear. If loot is fixed then people will kick some to improve chance of getting loot, taking just enough to invoke the desired loot table. CoX does not have loot like WoW, so this issue is mute to CoX.
People will just write software to let you put attributes of gear into the program, and minimax the heck out of it. Think of it as RAWR for wow, except you can type in, or load in the data of random equipment.
Plus, it prob will tell you want stat to go after so you know whether to use or sell a new piece of equipment when it drops.
My preferred playing style is soloing. I'm not the uberest player in the game, but I know what I'm doing and I know what I have to do to continue forward. In most, if not all, games I've played, XP is divided when partying. I don't want to give a % of earned experience to some jackass who stands by and leeches off the party mass-kills, and I don't want to be slowed down by "Sec gotta xxx". I admit, I plow through some games, but that's just because I want to reach end game..
I'm in no way against grouping, but if I'm in a group that group better be able to progress as fast as I can, or even faster. I'm not for removing the best gear for the raiders, since I too want to raid, but at the end game and with players that will take it seriously. I've played a couple of games where you could only progress through teaming (Anarchy Online, Legend of Mir 3), and being a soloer, I never reached end game on either of those two. Not being end-game, I can't enjoy the content of raids and such, and can't enjoy all the new content brought with patches aimed at end game.
But this is just me, I'm well aware that my views on Solo/Group differ according to everyone's playing style.
35 pages long so I'll risk a repeating comment anyway.
Someone in these types of threads once gave ideas on how to fix this dilemna.
(Great gear/content for solo, group, and raid meanwhile penalties when trying to use specified gear on another type of play)
I'll just add another problem is actually min-maxing and catering to that group. That's a group that can't be satisfied.
It's also a group that has taken a mechanic and have tried to warp its definition into gameplay as well as lifestyle.
I'm waiting to see how Bioware fights the min-max upper echilon now that one of them in PC Gamer has took a stance against the min-maxers. I hope they actually win.
So I heard from a couple people that post here on their ideas of soloing I heard that people who raid should not be allowed gear that gives them huge benefits over those who solo I also hear a lot that there should be solo dungeons where people go through dungeons solo and get loot on par to those who go in group dungeons.
Why? Soloing is easy, if it was hard you would need more than one person. and if everything can be soloed and not grouped what does that say for classes that have it harder to solo than those who dont IE pet classes vs healing classes. Should people who play pet classes be allowed to plow through content and get gear easier and faster than those who have harder jobs/classes?
Why do people like soloing in a mmorpg? You plow through content no matter how slow you take it, its still fast when soloing, you solo and beat all the content then what? You want for a new patch to come a long when can take months for more content. Soloing is what is killing mmorpgs now a days. Even single player RPGS do not have soloing, you are always grouped with other characters or NPCs. Any so called solo rpg IE legend of zelda is classified as an adeventure game or hack and slash or dungeon crawler not a RPG. Companys today are trying their hardest to balance soloing and group play that it will always hurt group play. The easier you make solo the less people want to group, the less content there will be to group. Lets take WoW for example after you solo all the way to 80 there are what 7 small man dungeons and 4 raids, before content patch there were three PVE raids.
Now take those numbers and what % of the content is that? Especially for raiders they have to see the same four raids over and over and over again just to get loot. Solo players have many different sites and quest to go by alone. The instances now a days even for any new mmorpg are just that fast instansted content, group play does not even have options we are told to go here if we want to group.
Yes we can group in solo content but why? we are hit hard for exp if we invite some one, the quest are longer, not kill quest but definately loot quest are much longer. It is much more of a pain in the ass to group than to solo in the solo aspect of the game. and even if we did group it just makes the game 100x more easier than it already is, grouping is supposed to be a challenge, overcoming challenges with others not plow through content asap. Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No
Look at FFXI, some people don't have time to form a group, forming a good group in FFXI can take 10 mins to 2 hours depending on luck, not everyone has that much time to sit waiting for a party to be built, The changes to FFXI making it more solo friendly has actually brought new people into the game. I like mmorpgs where you can solo, but a party is much much more rewarding (Trickster for example, up to 2.5x exp in a party compared to solo) More mmorpgs need that kind of system. Sure you can solo but it'll be no where near as good/fast for the time spent than it is in a team. Then you have garbage like WoW where about 85-90% of the game can be soloed. CoX is another good example, sure I can solo, but soloing in city of heroes/villians is boring, its much more fun in a full team of 8 ripping 30 enemies apart at a time.
You don’t get something for nothing in life. The idea a change which has some plus points is always for the better is naïve.
There is a balance at work here; if you think FFXI has problems forming a group now, more soloing will make it even harder to find a group. People will come on line and go ‘oh I can’t wait ten minutes I will do some soloing’. The rest who are trying to form a group find the pool of people looking for a group has diminished, they take longer to find a group. Taking longer to find a group makes more people decide to just solo, so the pool of people who want to group will keep falling.
This is the poison chalice of soloing. I do not advocate a grouping only game. But for certain zones, instances, activities like some of the PvP, a certain range of levels, grouping should be forced. In others grouping needs a big carrot to survive against the simplicity of just logging in and soloing, which is always going to be the easiest option.
You don’t get something for nothing in life. The idea a change which has some plus points is always for the better is naïve. There is a balance at work here; if you think FFXI has problems forming a group now, more soloing will make it even harder to find a group. People will come on line and go ‘oh I can’t wait ten minutes I will do some soloing’. The rest who are trying to form a group find the pool of people looking for a group has diminished, they take longer to find a group. Taking longer to find a group makes more people decide to just solo, so the pool of people who want to group will keep falling. This is the poison chalice of soloing. I do not advocate a grouping only game. But for certain zones, instances, activities like some of the PvP, a certain range of levels, grouping should be forced. In others grouping needs a big carrot to survive against the simplicity of just logging in and soloing, which is always going to be the easiest option.
What forced grouping game are you playing right now? The only one i know of personally, DDO, just went FTP. If grouping for PVP isnt enough for you perhaps DDO would be the game for you. Ive heard they added more solo content though so maybe not. Wonder why a game known to be a group based game would add solo content and go FTP?
Wonder why a game known to be a group based game would add solo content and go FTP?
Because they didn't do it right.
Ok so what forced grouping game has done it right and thriving?
I don't know the situation about DDO. But I do know this. FF XI is a forced grouping game, and it has had a steady 500k subscription fanbase for the past, say, 8 years? Not to be critical, but forced grouping can work in this time and day.
Wonder why a game known to be a group based game would add solo content and go FTP?
Because they didn't do it right.
Ok so what forced grouping game has done it right and thriving?
The above post is right, although I wouldn't say FFXI did it 'right' either. It's certainly harder to do it well rather than just copy/paste WoW, but if some company can pull it off it will be successful.
But yeah not gonna happen because the devs don't want to take risks these days..
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Unless something has changed since I quit, Vanguard was forced grouping. Sure I soloed to lvl 50 but lemme tell you, after lvl 30 I did not loot one single weapon or piece of armor that was better than what I already had on... not one for 20 lvls. If you like grouping for the best stuff... go there..
As for this topic, soooo many ppl say, "If people have the choice to solo, they will." Well, shouldnt that tell you something... groupers are the new minority. I truly hope there will be new group games for you somewhere on the horizon but until then... this seems to be your new world..
Comments
Really they should make a game that keeps everyone busy..And never mind the bull crap of solo and grouping survey..100s of games are made and those games are for the players of a IQ of 1..I have a Pc with well over 500 gb of free space and the Rams i have is 4gb..In this day and age, games can have allot more to them. 10gb for a game can keep both groups happy with extra to do..
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
I don't think your IQ is much higher than 1 either.
You DO know that the constraints of content has little to do with your RAM & HD space, don't you?
Content is very expensive to make. Do you know how much man-hours is needed to make a zone?
I don't think your IQ is much higher than 1 either.
You DO know that the constraints of content has little to do with your RAM & HD space, don't you?
Content is very expensive to make. Do you know how much man-hours is needed to make a zone?
Do you? Because the answer is not very simple, different zones take different amount of man hours... same with content,, different content takes different amounts of man hours.
Sooner or Later
A great example of player interaction in EQ1 pre-pop is transport, people having to use Druids and Wizard's to port you about, it was great, giving a real feel of size and mini economy out of it.
Regarding SWG and the whole healer, entertainer debacle... I was there in beta when they "tried this out". You had to wait in line for an Entertainer or Doctor class to heal you before you could go out and play again. THESE PEOPLE WERE CHARGING FOR IT!!! Charging you to just stand in line, while they hit a macro. You literally couldn't play(kill things) until another player allowed you to;) Lets just say that concept never got out of beta=) Anyone who would approve of something so asinine is nutty. About as fun as waiting for a boat for 20 minutes, or requiring other players to allow you the courtesy of travel=) SImply astounding how little value some people put on their in-game time.
It creates player interaction and gives further purpose and difference to classes etc. Just like people who like to craft and get involved in the economics, there are more levels of what people want from a game than just 'hack 'n' slash'.
Very true, but wouldn't players who like to socially mingle do it no matter what?
It is more fun, more meaningful, and more likely to occur between strangers when it serves a purpose and is meaningful and required in the game, rather than just to hang out when you could be making xp, because you think each other is so cool you'll stop playing the game just to chat.
There is a marathon race with a big trophy, and international acclaim.
But wouldn't Lance Armstrong just do marathons by himself because he likes to bike? Well, sure, but he's more likely to train and do a marathon when there's a trophy, even though he actually does like to bike. .
Get it?
In my opinion Solo must be available or I am not interested.
The game doesnt need to gear itself around solo but there has to be a solo option for people like me. I play a very arradic play schedule sometimes Im on for 10-20 mins off for 15 back for 30 off for 20 back for 15 etc etc
This type of time makes group stuff near impossible but I can do my own thing during that time I can play log off in a seconds notice to leave and come back continue what I was doing but with a group you cant leave them before your done they counting on everyone in the group.
I enjoy some group play but I only do it when I have enough time available to where I can play and finish whatever the group is doing, aside from when I have a big chunck of time to clear something I need a solo option or I cant do anything.
Look at a game like FFXI when I was near max level the time it could take to make a party was usualy all the play time I had for that day. 0 option of solo aside from professions / farming, I tried to get groups but its not soemthing you can do fast mind you things have changed there and they have stuff in place to make that a lot easier than it was when i played but the point is still true I quit because I had 0 solo option.
I dont think solo gear should be > than a group who take on a hard boss but I want a solo option in the game for me, as well as group options. which is also more true to RPG situations. to only play with a group 100% of the time isnt very RP in reality you would do a mixture of solo / small group / large group.. Even frodo had to go on alone in the lord of the rings at one point and also duo'd with sam so why should we always have to be in a 25 man team or just sit in towna nd wait for a new team?
Positive versus Negative Reinforcement.
Don't force players to group because there will be bad consequences,
instead encourage them to group because there will be good consequences.
Basic human psychology. Apply it to gaming.
Nowadays?
They are positively reinforceing solo play or negatively reinforcing group play until you get to "end game" when the dynamic does a 180 in the other direction.
Leveling - punish group reward solo
End game - punish solo reward group
There is a better way.
Your opinion is immaterial.
Problem is.. Games not adapting to the present social behavior of gamers.
Like in real life, people spend less and less time with each other.. people have jobs, weird schedules, kids, etc etc.. the whole social society concept we were used to is vannishing.
If a game wants to be sucesseful it has to go mainly for single player and only after for teamplaying. Most players wont stay in a game demanding a lot of time like they stood say 5 or 6 years ago.
The general been there done that feeling, the wish to play a game without drama etc etc are needs developers need to adress when designing a game.
Does it mean people back to single player games? No.. people got addicted to online gaming.. its just a matter of providing the unstresseful single player experience in an online game.. pretty simple.
You miss the entire reason people prefer soloing. Hence, your thread and opinion are way off base. Your total reasoning is flawed because you base your argument, as most do, on the idea people want to solo.
Wrong! Most soloers like myself solo because we have no choice. Many developers have yet to come up with a way to make grouping fast and effective for a player base that has changed over the years. I simple do not have the time anymore I use to. The other night I signed up for a raid in WoW. The time plan was about 2 hours. Well that is fantasy. Took over an hour to get everyone together at the aggreed upon time. 2 players did not show and we had to wait and try to find replacements. I had 2.5 hours alotted and we barely got started when I had to leave. So then I became the villian because I was ready to go and scheduled my time for the raid but it went way beyond the time it should have taken. They ended up spending almost 4 hours on what was planned as a 2 hour group.
Now do not tell me that is just wow, my guild, or my server. This has happened in almost every mmo I have played. That is why we solo not because we prefer it. It is because the developers need to rethink how you group, amounts of players needed, and length of group acctivities. Because of this situation, I also agree solo rewards need to be as good as group rewards. I pay the same money as everyone else does to play. If I solo and soloing is built into the game, as in WoW, then there should be equal rewards available to all who pay to play. That does not mean it has to be easy, another flawed reasoning on the OPs part. You see it is not that we want to solo. Many of the games have made it impossible to group as a priorty for a lot of players.
2) Instead of split shared experience hitting a lower ratio when one or more people group together to do overland monster kill grinding, it should go UP significantly to MAKE players want to seek out pickup groups for afternoons of mindless leveling. A person with only a couple of hours to solo should be able to make some strides in leveling, but the game rules should be in place so that if that person had more time to kill to commit with a group, that it would be by far in their best interest to do it. So, the mimimaxer will just pug everything and rush to the end, all are one off random PUGs, no talk no nothing just group, kill, disband or next dunegon.
If all the players are min-maxer, you can force them to do anything beyond using the most efficient way to advance their char anyway. You may as well give them give them solo-hack-n-slash content.
You miss the entire reason people prefer soloing. Hence, your thread and opinion are way off base. Your total reasoning is flawed because you base your argument, as most do, on the idea people want to solo.
Wrong! Most soloers like myself solo because we have no choice. Many developers have yet to come up with a way to make grouping fast and effective for a player base that has changed over the years. I simple do not have the time anymore I use to. The other night I signed up for a raid in WoW. The time plan was about 2 hours. Well that is fantasy. Took over an hour to get everyone together at the aggreed upon time. 2 players did not show and we had to wait and try to find replacements. I had 2.5 hours alotted and we barely got started when I had to leave. So then I became the villian because I was ready to go and scheduled my time for the raid but it went way beyond the time it should have taken. They ended up spending almost 4 hours on what was planned as a 2 hour group.
Now do not tell me that is just wow, my guild, or my server. This has happened in almost every mmo I have played. That is why we solo not because we prefer it. It is because the developers need to rethink how you group, amounts of players needed, and length of group acctivities. Because of this situation, I also agree solo rewards need to be as good as group rewards. I pay the same money as everyone else does to play. If I solo and soloing is built into the game, as in WoW, then there should be equal rewards available to all who pay to play. That does not mean it has to be easy, another flawed reasoning on the OPs part. You see it is not that we want to solo. Many of the games have made it impossible to group as a priorty for a lot of players.
CoX has a solution to this, they general instances dynamically, depending on number of players and average levels of the group. So you do not need a full gorup to start.
Trouble is assigning loot table. If the loot is randomly generated, there will be lots of drops quality and people cannot easily minimax, much like pre-CU SWG gear. If loot is fixed then people will kick some to improve chance of getting loot, taking just enough to invoke the desired loot table. CoX does not have loot like WoW, so this issue is mute to CoX.
In the interest of saving time, I've paraphrased and provided my own opinion.
Why? Soloing is easy, .....Response: No ..... it isn't.
Why do people like soloing in a mmorpg? ......Response: Because its fun.
Soloing is what is killing mmorpgs now a days....Response: No.... it isn't.
Even single player RPGS do not have soloing, you are always grouped with other characters or NPCs...Response: Single player games do have solo content and you are not ALWAYS grouped with ..... you get the picture.
Companys today are trying their hardest to balance soloing and group play that it will always hurt group play...Response: If they were really trying their hardest to balance gameplay, they would eliminate "loot centric" concepts.
Especially for raiders they have to see the same four raids over and over and over again just to get loot....Response: You just pointed out one of the REAL reasons MMORPGs are slowly dying. Unimaginative developers churning out incomplete, loot centric trash just to make a buck.
Yes we can group in solo content but why? ...Response: I have to agree with you there, it is silly to group for solo content.
It is much more of a pain in the ass to group than to solo ,,,,,blah, blah, blah... grouping is supposed to be a challenge, overcoming challenges with others not plow through content asap....Response: It is a pain in the ass to group and the biggest challenge is dealing with all the asshats
Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No
Response: I am still waiting for the MMO that makes soloing the main aspect of mmorpgs. All the games I've played require grouping/raiding to get the "Uber loots".
Personally, I think making the game loot centric is a complete sellout by the devs.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
I did not realise about the SW ‘wait in line’ to be healed, standing in a queue is not exactly the type of interaction I was thinking of.
But you get the idea, it could be just for a buff which ‘entertainers’ can only give out in Cantinas, something like that.
Diversity of play style is the key and soloing does not lead to diversity. It leads to one style which excludes any other. This is the real problem, no matter how good they make the soloing you cut of nearly all other styles of play. This leads to no innovation in game play, just better soloing.
Two games handle things pretty well.
Guild Wars - It has henchmen/heroes. If you can find other people, great. If you can't, you have alternatives. (On the down side, most the game is designed for a full party, which can get a bit old if you are playing solo). But I think more games need this.
It also has mission waiting areas, which makes it easier to find people to do them with. I'm not sure how you'd apply that to a more traditional MMORPG, with quests, maybe some sort of adventurers guild or something
Atlantica Online - it rewards grouping by giving extra experience. And don't have a group for group quests? In most cases, you can use a scroll to get surrounding mobs to help you temporarily. While probably too expensive to do all the time, it's useful when you can't find anyone.
I also like how it has in game guild ads (you can apply online), a peer channel (need someone your level? You can the 30 people closest to you in level, and talk to people within a 10 level range). And it's version of raids come in individual forms, too. If you can't spend 2 hours doing a huge dungeon, you can spend 20-60 minutes doing a shorter one.
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
SWG did have the doctor buffs which were a 'must' for serious combat. So you would have a doctor standing in a major city with a long line of people buying a buff and then moving on. The more enterprising doctors would setup a house in a location near a mission hub and then leave their character in there as a bot. A person would pay a fee for entering the house, trigger the bot's macro and then get their buff.
The buffs were a 'speed bump' on the way to doing what you wanted to be doing so people took the fastest, least painful way to getting them. In the end it really did not create a more social aspect to the game beyond what people already di to socialize.
You miss the entire reason people prefer soloing. Hence, your thread and opinion are way off base. Your total reasoning is flawed because you base your argument, as most do, on the idea people want to solo.
Wrong! Most soloers like myself solo because we have no choice. Many developers have yet to come up with a way to make grouping fast and effective for a player base that has changed over the years. I simple do not have the time anymore I use to. The other night I signed up for a raid in WoW. The time plan was about 2 hours. Well that is fantasy. Took over an hour to get everyone together at the aggreed upon time. 2 players did not show and we had to wait and try to find replacements. I had 2.5 hours alotted and we barely got started when I had to leave. So then I became the villian because I was ready to go and scheduled my time for the raid but it went way beyond the time it should have taken. They ended up spending almost 4 hours on what was planned as a 2 hour group.
Now do not tell me that is just wow, my guild, or my server. This has happened in almost every mmo I have played. That is why we solo not because we prefer it. It is because the developers need to rethink how you group, amounts of players needed, and length of group acctivities. Because of this situation, I also agree solo rewards need to be as good as group rewards. I pay the same money as everyone else does to play. If I solo and soloing is built into the game, as in WoW, then there should be equal rewards available to all who pay to play. That does not mean it has to be easy, another flawed reasoning on the OPs part. You see it is not that we want to solo. Many of the games have made it impossible to group as a priorty for a lot of players.
CoX has a solution to this, they general instances dynamically, depending on number of players and average levels of the group. So you do not need a full gorup to start.
Trouble is assigning loot table. If the loot is randomly generated, there will be lots of drops quality and people cannot easily minimax, much like pre-CU SWG gear. If loot is fixed then people will kick some to improve chance of getting loot, taking just enough to invoke the desired loot table. CoX does not have loot like WoW, so this issue is mute to CoX.
People will just write software to let you put attributes of gear into the program, and minimax the heck out of it. Think of it as RAWR for wow, except you can type in, or load in the data of random equipment.
Plus, it prob will tell you want stat to go after so you know whether to use or sell a new piece of equipment when it drops.
My preferred playing style is soloing. I'm not the uberest player in the game, but I know what I'm doing and I know what I have to do to continue forward. In most, if not all, games I've played, XP is divided when partying. I don't want to give a % of earned experience to some jackass who stands by and leeches off the party mass-kills, and I don't want to be slowed down by "Sec gotta xxx". I admit, I plow through some games, but that's just because I want to reach end game..
I'm in no way against grouping, but if I'm in a group that group better be able to progress as fast as I can, or even faster. I'm not for removing the best gear for the raiders, since I too want to raid, but at the end game and with players that will take it seriously. I've played a couple of games where you could only progress through teaming (Anarchy Online, Legend of Mir 3), and being a soloer, I never reached end game on either of those two. Not being end-game, I can't enjoy the content of raids and such, and can't enjoy all the new content brought with patches aimed at end game.
But this is just me, I'm well aware that my views on Solo/Group differ according to everyone's playing style.
35 pages long so I'll risk a repeating comment anyway.
Someone in these types of threads once gave ideas on how to fix this dilemna.
(Great gear/content for solo, group, and raid meanwhile penalties when trying to use specified gear on another type of play)
I'll just add another problem is actually min-maxing and catering to that group. That's a group that can't be satisfied.
It's also a group that has taken a mechanic and have tried to warp its definition into gameplay as well as lifestyle.
I'm waiting to see how Bioware fights the min-max upper echilon now that one of them in PC Gamer has took a stance against the min-maxers. I hope they actually win.
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
Look at FFXI, some people don't have time to form a group, forming a good group in FFXI can take 10 mins to 2 hours depending on luck, not everyone has that much time to sit waiting for a party to be built, The changes to FFXI making it more solo friendly has actually brought new people into the game. I like mmorpgs where you can solo, but a party is much much more rewarding (Trickster for example, up to 2.5x exp in a party compared to solo) More mmorpgs need that kind of system. Sure you can solo but it'll be no where near as good/fast for the time spent than it is in a team. Then you have garbage like WoW where about 85-90% of the game can be soloed. CoX is another good example, sure I can solo, but soloing in city of heroes/villians is boring, its much more fun in a full team of 8 ripping 30 enemies apart at a time.
You don’t get something for nothing in life. The idea a change which has some plus points is always for the better is naïve.
There is a balance at work here; if you think FFXI has problems forming a group now, more soloing will make it even harder to find a group. People will come on line and go ‘oh I can’t wait ten minutes I will do some soloing’. The rest who are trying to form a group find the pool of people looking for a group has diminished, they take longer to find a group. Taking longer to find a group makes more people decide to just solo, so the pool of people who want to group will keep falling.
This is the poison chalice of soloing. I do not advocate a grouping only game. But for certain zones, instances, activities like some of the PvP, a certain range of levels, grouping should be forced. In others grouping needs a big carrot to survive against the simplicity of just logging in and soloing, which is always going to be the easiest option.
What forced grouping game are you playing right now? The only one i know of personally, DDO, just went FTP. If grouping for PVP isnt enough for you perhaps DDO would be the game for you. Ive heard they added more solo content though so maybe not. Wonder why a game known to be a group based game would add solo content and go FTP?
Because they didn't do it right.
Because they didn't do it right.
Ok so what forced grouping game has done it right and thriving?
Because they didn't do it right.
Ok so what forced grouping game has done it right and thriving?
I don't know the situation about DDO. But I do know this. FF XI is a forced grouping game, and it has had a steady 500k subscription fanbase for the past, say, 8 years? Not to be critical, but forced grouping can work in this time and day.
Because they didn't do it right.
Ok so what forced grouping game has done it right and thriving?
The above post is right, although I wouldn't say FFXI did it 'right' either. It's certainly harder to do it well rather than just copy/paste WoW, but if some company can pull it off it will be successful.
But yeah not gonna happen because the devs don't want to take risks these days..
Unless something has changed since I quit, Vanguard was forced grouping. Sure I soloed to lvl 50 but lemme tell you, after lvl 30 I did not loot one single weapon or piece of armor that was better than what I already had on... not one for 20 lvls. If you like grouping for the best stuff... go there..
As for this topic, soooo many ppl say, "If people have the choice to solo, they will." Well, shouldnt that tell you something... groupers are the new minority. I truly hope there will be new group games for you somewhere on the horizon but until then... this seems to be your new world..