I have a question, why we talking about only one kind of mystery game in one game? Why not collecting some kind of it, (Holmes style, Cluedo style... and any other style) then simply choose from their rules that u think others will like, and form a completely new idea of mystery style game this way? why we talking about picking only 1 style - like puzzle, if we can make a completely new style just by mushing toghether different styles and our own ideas?
yeah it doesnt seem complicated to me. I have done "mystery" quests in other MMO's I dont see why that basic idea could not be expanded to a larger scale.
you roll your toon and they can be a private dec or work of the police force and you go out and solve mysteries....simple.
when you think about its not radical but given how all MMO's have a strick framework even a small change is "radical".
The reason I think it would be a smash is becuase of insanely popular the subject matter is in other media such as books and TV.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Ps2.: "Also, If you try to draw a line with a colour pen on the exact same colour paper you will still be able to notice the difference. Pen are mainly liquid or oil based, but either way the paper will soap up the fluids and becomes darkened. Which actually makes the pen mark visible." Yes, agree but red is still red, blue still blue, so nothing realy changes, no painter paint with same colour, coz they dnt see what they workd for.
If you mean painter then that is different. I never seen a paint pen before, but point taken.
I have a question, why we talking about only one kind of mystery game in one game? Why not collecting some kind of it, (Holmes style, Cluedo style... and any other style) then simply choose from their rules that u think others will like, and form a completely new idea of mystery style game this way? why we talking about picking only 1 style - like puzzle, if we can make a completely new style just by mushing toghether different styles and our own ideas?
yeah it doesnt seem complicated to me. I have done "mystery" quests in other MMO's I dont see why that basic idea could not be expanded to a larger scale.
you roll your toon and they can be a private dec or work of the police force and you go out and solve mysteries....simple.
when you think about its not radical but given how all MMO's have a strick framework even a small change is "radical".
The reason I think it would be a smash is becuase of insanely popular the subject matter is in other media such as books and TV.
I really think it's because there are a lack of talented writers working on MMO's. Don't get me wrong, creating the lore and backstory is immense and commendable work it seems most of the people creating quests are fresh out of college from computer backgrounds more than being experienced writers. Creating an interesting and complex mystery is not an easy task. I could be wrong and there is more to it, if anyone in the industry knows for sure, I'd love to hear them address the issue.
I really think it's because there are a lack of talented writers working on MMO's. Don't get me wrong, creating the lore and backstory is immense and commendable work it seems most of the people creating quests are fresh out of college from computer backgrounds more than being experienced writers. Creating an interesting and complex mystery is not an easy task. I could be wrong and there is more to it, if anyone in the industry knows for sure, I'd love to hear them address the issue.
that is a sane and well thought out view!
I differ a bit however.
1. I think the gaming industry are targeting younger players on purpose to create what is called "product identity". Which is a word that explains the phenomenon that people usually form their life time purchasing habits before their 30’s and almost never change them after 30’sish.
2. its cheaper to code using existing code base from previous games and forumlas.
Although I might be way off on item 1 I think 2 is pretty solid and overall my view is that the gaming industry is just cheap and afraid to take risks more than anything else. Althought if item 1 is true it might make sense why they are not focusing on players above the age of 30.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I can see your point. Maybe we're both right. But your product theory is very solid. I liken it to musical and movie tastes. Most people like what they like and they never deviate from it. Hopefully, some developer will take a chance. All we need is one success so other companies will at least take a look at the possibilities.
I agree. I took a break from gaming for a few weeks becuase I was basically just tired of killing stuff all the time.
but now I am back, bloody blade and all
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Yea, I'm not gaming at the moment either. In the Aion beta and will give it a shot in September for the endgame rvr,, but Im waiting for Earthrise. Other than those two, I'm just not impressed with the upcoming MMO's.
I would totally dig a Mystery MMO ala Sherlock Holmes style. Raid Boss: Jack The Ripper
Quests/Mysteries/Cases could be solo but could get solved quicker if you hook up with someone that has a different "skill set". Heck, not even everyone would need to be a dective some could be information brokers.
A Hard Boiled Detective (Sam Spade) type game would be fun too and probably very funny.
wow I totally forgot about Myst. Whatever happened to those type of games ?
It was a pity u never seen URU and Myst Online. Unfortunately they failed. Not because there were no combat but, imho, because some dev choice was too 'hard' to do, such as not having npc's but only people running, also the 'lore' characters.
But it was a wonderful game and there is still a community waiting to see if Cyan can really make at least the MORE project, releasing everything, client and server, to the public domain under the GNU licence, with specific rules.
Here you can find some screenshot about both URU (2003-2004) and MystOnline (2007-2008) experience:
If you thought about this for a few seconds you would realize why a Mystery MMO would be a massive undertaking. Because the only way to do it is to have different solutions for everyone otherwise the cheaters who look things up on the web would own the game. Unfortunately I don't think you can have that many solutions, hence this idea falls flat on it's face.
If you thought about this for a few seconds you would realize why a Mystery MMO would be a massive undertaking. Because the only way to do it is to have different solutions for everyone otherwise the cheaters who look things up on the web would own the game. Unfortunately I don't think you can have that many solutions, hence this idea falls flat on it's face. Nice try, but no cigar on this thread....
I agree you would need massive resources in order to keep the game going. Something that all MMO's seam to loose after the initiial lets get the game going. So I just cant see a game doing that as the monthy fee required to keep a full programming staff cranking out the new content all the time.
I think this idea is brilliant, but unfortunately won't appeal to a mass audience. If an independent company were to come up with something like this and it was good they would still probably cap out at 50k subscribers, which wouldn't be bad as long as they produce and maintain it for a reasonably small budget.
Of course as MMO's go it'd have to have some sort of character progression and I don't know how that would work in the context.
Because if it had well crafted Mysteries, there'd be one answer, which people could go just find on a webpage. Otherwise it would have to be randomized, which would get old pretty quick. Devs want people to play MMOs for many many months. How many times can you play Clue in a row before you get tired of "it was x in the y with the z"?
I'm sorry, but is anyone else tired of these "Why Not: Random Niche Gameplay?" articles? It seems like the site is really reaching for content with these. I find these articles really aren't realistically held up to the genre with respect to the needs of a successful MMO. I mean, they're nice pipe dreams, but it's hard enough for MMOs with established formulas to get off the ground, let alone wild experimentations.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I like the idea but I don't think it's doable with technology where it's at. It would need an incredible engine capable of creating random, unpredictable scenario's on the fly. Scenario's you couldn't just look up. There needs to be a strong mystery mainstream singleplayer game out in the last 3 years before an attempt at an MMO can be made.
that was probably the most horrible idea i have ever heard of, mystery MMOs, what a ludicrous idea, and the whole article is filled with ideas that have so many loopholes and are not well thought through it seems the author did not even think about them.
Because if it had well crafted Mysteries, there'd be one answer, which people could go just find on a webpage. Otherwise it would have to be randomized, which would get old pretty quick. Devs want people to play MMOs for many many months. How many times can you play Clue in a row before you get tired of "it was x in the y with the z"? I'm sorry, but is anyone else tired of these "Why Not: Random Niche Gameplay?" articles? It seems like the site is really reaching for content with these. I find these articles really aren't realistically held up to the genre with respect to the needs of a successful MMO. I mean, they're nice pipe dreams, but it's hard enough for MMOs with established formulas to get off the ground, let alone wild experimentations.
No, I"m not tired of random niche' gameplay articles, because there are a portion of people who do want something to cater to their niche'. When people stop trying to imagine something new it's the death of progress. I mean seriously, I"m glad someone imagined tha they could walk on the moon or put a rover on mars, regardless of how ludicrous it sounded to some people.
Hi, i just dropd by and seen the reacts... I have other toughts i have to share with u guys:
First of all, dont realy know what kind of graphical interface u wish to use with this game.. 2/2,5/or 3D i mean... (thus one more if 3D: First person like camera for palyers, or 3rd person mode, can be each?)
Secondly, how will be solved the interacts with items? NPC interacts (lot of interacts with NPCs - not talking about that u have to make them "talk" too.. - will have the game boring after a time), point and click (- like CSI - 2,5D -) or what? Im serious, dnt be mad....
Thirdly, I thinking on characters outfit, and modellng: How you wish to do the character creation? I mean u wish to use schematic character outfit (already done modells for males/females), or u let players do their own characters (just like u can do in - im not sure wich game out of these have system like that, i playd them nearly all, but that was eons ago - Entropia Universe or Ryzom )?
And lastly, have to tell that one thing i forgot to tell when i made my last post, that there is a copyright law, so u have to figure out how to write the "stolen rules" of those games, to not to notice it at first sight, that it is stolen from this and this game. So it have to look like an exactly new idea, unless u dnt want to pay serious cash for copying the game idea....
We talked lots about questing, and so on, but these were worth some thinking too....
Ps.: sorry if i look like harsh or anything, im trying not to be a bully, coz i like the idea, but things have to been asked if you wish to start making a game like this.
Almost forgot to tell, that just the modelling and the drawings takes 3-4 years (!), and lots of working with them. Somtimes 24/7. I can do 3D modelling, and a good to know thing that only the character face takes 4 days to DRAW with 3D modeller program, and 7-10 days to make the face live (i mean coloring have to be done). Other thing is to "stole" already made modell kinds from other games, and edit them, but still they are under copyright law, so i dnt suggest to do it...
Im sharing this with u guys only becouse i wish to say, if game like this will be thinked thru (somtimes takes years to think out what u want), and u can sell the idea, or u can make the game itself, dnt think it will be forvarded to "beta testing" in the next fev years....
And lastly, have to tell that one thing i forgot to tell when i made my last post, that there is a copyright law, so u have to figure out how to write the "stolen rules" of those games, to not to notice it at first sight, that it is stolen from this and this game. So it have to look like an exactly new idea, unless u dnt want to pay serious cash for copying the game idea....
Not exactly sure where you going with the "rules"
All game companies steal from each other. The only copyright issues I could see are the source code for the game, and if you take character names, landmark names, 3D models, etc.. that were property of another company and used them in your game.
Crafting is copied from game to game , xp gain to level, class archetypes, weapon types are all similar.
So again, really maybe I"m not just understanding what you mean by "rules"
And lastly, have to tell that one thing i forgot to tell when i made my last post, that there is a copyright law, so u have to figure out how to write the "stolen rules" of those games, to not to notice it at first sight, that it is stolen from this and this game. So it have to look like an exactly new idea, unless u dnt want to pay serious cash for copying the game idea....
Not exactly sure where you going with the "rules"
All game companies steal from each other. The only copyright issues I could see are the source code for the game, and if you take character names, landmark names, 3D models, etc.. that were property of another company and used them in your game.
Crafting is copied from game to game , xp gain to level, class archetypes, weapon types are all similar.
So again, really maybe I"m not just understanding what you mean by "rules"
I meant to say if u mushing together game rules, than u have to know, that each game rule u "stole" from other companies are protected by law... (Im not sure u know the procedure how companies start to make games, not to mention MMOs if ur asking me this) To start to make a game there have to be an idea first, and u can sure that the idea is protected. After they apply copyright law on a game idea, they start to make the game. (its possible that the game idea contains the game rules... )
Just a good exaímple: the famous "Monopoly" is only have its game rules under copyright law.
- I think it in another way, you know theres an another "law" for that: Its about, if i think out exactly the same idea or product on the same way as you do witouth I seen ur idea or product (i can imagine it another way u done already, witouth ur help), then copyright law means nothing, coz i tought it out and i can proove that i dnt used ur idea.
So we just thinked in the same way. It can be that i figure out how to make a warcraft3 like game witouth using the company already released game....
"The only copyright issues I could see are the source code for the game, and if you take character names, landmark names, 3D models, etc.. that were property of another company and used them in your game."
- agreed, just u forgot to mention game idea, and game rules. (if they can proove that u stole from them, and can proove that isnt ur idea, u just wanted to use their idea or rules coz those fits for the game u tought out, than u pay...)
Well yea but the game rules of Monopoly center around "going to jail, community chest, marvin gardens, boardwalk etc.
There are other games that employ the rules of Staring on a point A and rolling a die or dice in order to progress. You can earn money,property, etc during the game.
So again, that goes to actually copying of the game specifically and not just we have a murder you walk around talk to npcs and solve the case.
Comments
yeah it doesnt seem complicated to me. I have done "mystery" quests in other MMO's I dont see why that basic idea could not be expanded to a larger scale.
you roll your toon and they can be a private dec or work of the police force and you go out and solve mysteries....simple.
when you think about its not radical but given how all MMO's have a strick framework even a small change is "radical".
The reason I think it would be a smash is becuase of insanely popular the subject matter is in other media such as books and TV.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Agatha Christie plz
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
If you mean painter then that is different. I never seen a paint pen before, but point taken.
yeah it doesnt seem complicated to me. I have done "mystery" quests in other MMO's I dont see why that basic idea could not be expanded to a larger scale.
you roll your toon and they can be a private dec or work of the police force and you go out and solve mysteries....simple.
when you think about its not radical but given how all MMO's have a strick framework even a small change is "radical".
The reason I think it would be a smash is becuase of insanely popular the subject matter is in other media such as books and TV.
I really think it's because there are a lack of talented writers working on MMO's. Don't get me wrong, creating the lore and backstory is immense and commendable work it seems most of the people creating quests are fresh out of college from computer backgrounds more than being experienced writers. Creating an interesting and complex mystery is not an easy task. I could be wrong and there is more to it, if anyone in the industry knows for sure, I'd love to hear them address the issue.
that is a sane and well thought out view!
I differ a bit however.
1. I think the gaming industry are targeting younger players on purpose to create what is called "product identity". Which is a word that explains the phenomenon that people usually form their life time purchasing habits before their 30’s and almost never change them after 30’sish.
2. its cheaper to code using existing code base from previous games and forumlas.
Although I might be way off on item 1 I think 2 is pretty solid and overall my view is that the gaming industry is just cheap and afraid to take risks more than anything else. Althought if item 1 is true it might make sense why they are not focusing on players above the age of 30.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I can see your point. Maybe we're both right.
But your product theory is very solid. I liken it to musical and movie tastes.
Most people like what they like and they never deviate from it.
Hopefully, some developer will take a chance. All we need is one success so other companies will at least take a look at the possibilities.
I agree. I took a break from gaming for a few weeks becuase I was basically just tired of killing stuff all the time.
but now I am back, bloody blade and all
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yea, I'm not gaming at the moment either. In the Aion beta and will give it a shot in September for the endgame rvr,, but Im waiting for Earthrise. Other than those two, I'm just not impressed with the upcoming MMO's.
I would totally dig a Mystery MMO ala Sherlock Holmes style. Raid Boss: Jack The Ripper
Quests/Mysteries/Cases could be solo but could get solved quicker if you hook up with someone that has a different "skill set". Heck, not even everyone would need to be a dective some could be information brokers.
A Hard Boiled Detective (Sam Spade) type game would be fun too and probably very funny.
It was a pity u never seen URU and Myst Online. Unfortunately they failed. Not because there were no combat but, imho, because some dev choice was too 'hard' to do, such as not having npc's but only people running, also the 'lore' characters.
But it was a wonderful game and there is still a community waiting to see if Cyan can really make at least the MORE project, releasing everything, client and server, to the public domain under the GNU licence, with specific rules.
Here you can find some screenshot about both URU (2003-2004) and MystOnline (2007-2008) experience:
URU: s157.photobucket.com/albums/t56/Gilgameesh/URU%20Live%20Prologue%20Dec%202003%20Feb%202004/
MystOnline: s157.photobucket.com/albums/t56/Gilgameesh/MOUL/
I think, if a mistery MMO can be successful, it can be only Myst. With something done differently, it could be a fantastic MMO.
Nickname registered on www.mynickname.org
If you thought about this for a few seconds you would realize why a Mystery MMO would be a massive undertaking. Because the only way to do it is to have different solutions for everyone otherwise the cheaters who look things up on the web would own the game. Unfortunately I don't think you can have that many solutions, hence this idea falls flat on it's face.
Nice try, but no cigar on this thread....
I agree you would need massive resources in order to keep the game going. Something that all MMO's seam to loose after the initiial lets get the game going. So I just cant see a game doing that as the monthy fee required to keep a full programming staff cranking out the new content all the time.
I think this idea is brilliant, but unfortunately won't appeal to a mass audience. If an independent company were to come up with something like this and it was good they would still probably cap out at 50k subscribers, which wouldn't be bad as long as they produce and maintain it for a reasonably small budget.
Of course as MMO's go it'd have to have some sort of character progression and I don't know how that would work in the context.
Because if it had well crafted Mysteries, there'd be one answer, which people could go just find on a webpage. Otherwise it would have to be randomized, which would get old pretty quick. Devs want people to play MMOs for many many months. How many times can you play Clue in a row before you get tired of "it was x in the y with the z"?
I'm sorry, but is anyone else tired of these "Why Not: Random Niche Gameplay?" articles? It seems like the site is really reaching for content with these. I find these articles really aren't realistically held up to the genre with respect to the needs of a successful MMO. I mean, they're nice pipe dreams, but it's hard enough for MMOs with established formulas to get off the ground, let alone wild experimentations.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I like the idea but I don't think it's doable with technology where it's at. It would need an incredible engine capable of creating random, unpredictable scenario's on the fly. Scenario's you couldn't just look up. There needs to be a strong mystery mainstream singleplayer game out in the last 3 years before an attempt at an MMO can be made.
that was probably the most horrible idea i have ever heard of, mystery MMOs, what a ludicrous idea, and the whole article is filled with ideas that have so many loopholes and are not well thought through it seems the author did not even think about them.
Richijefe
No, I"m not tired of random niche' gameplay articles, because there are a portion of people who do want something to cater to their niche'. When people stop trying to imagine something new it's the death of progress. I mean seriously, I"m glad someone imagined tha they could walk on the moon or put a rover on mars, regardless of how ludicrous it sounded to some people.
Hi, i just dropd by and seen the reacts... I have other toughts i have to share with u guys:
First of all, dont realy know what kind of graphical interface u wish to use with this game.. 2/2,5/or 3D i mean... (thus one more if 3D: First person like camera for palyers, or 3rd person mode, can be each?)
Secondly, how will be solved the interacts with items? NPC interacts (lot of interacts with NPCs - not talking about that u have to make them "talk" too.. - will have the game boring after a time), point and click (- like CSI - 2,5D -) or what? Im serious, dnt be mad....
Thirdly, I thinking on characters outfit, and modellng: How you wish to do the character creation? I mean u wish to use schematic character outfit (already done modells for males/females), or u let players do their own characters (just like u can do in - im not sure wich game out of these have system like that, i playd them nearly all, but that was eons ago - Entropia Universe or Ryzom )?
And lastly, have to tell that one thing i forgot to tell when i made my last post, that there is a copyright law, so u have to figure out how to write the "stolen rules" of those games, to not to notice it at first sight, that it is stolen from this and this game. So it have to look like an exactly new idea, unless u dnt want to pay serious cash for copying the game idea....
We talked lots about questing, and so on, but these were worth some thinking too....
Ps.: sorry if i look like harsh or anything, im trying not to be a bully, coz i like the idea, but things have to been asked if you wish to start making a game like this.
Almost forgot to tell, that just the modelling and the drawings takes 3-4 years (!), and lots of working with them. Somtimes 24/7. I can do 3D modelling, and a good to know thing that only the character face takes 4 days to DRAW with 3D modeller program, and 7-10 days to make the face live (i mean coloring have to be done). Other thing is to "stole" already made modell kinds from other games, and edit them, but still they are under copyright law, so i dnt suggest to do it...
Im sharing this with u guys only becouse i wish to say, if game like this will be thinked thru (somtimes takes years to think out what u want), and u can sell the idea, or u can make the game itself, dnt think it will be forvarded to "beta testing" in the next fev years....
Not exactly sure where you going with the "rules"
All game companies steal from each other. The only copyright issues I could see are the source code for the game, and if you take character names, landmark names, 3D models, etc.. that were property of another company and used them in your game.
Crafting is copied from game to game , xp gain to level, class archetypes, weapon types are all similar.
So again, really maybe I"m not just understanding what you mean by "rules"
Not exactly sure where you going with the "rules"
All game companies steal from each other. The only copyright issues I could see are the source code for the game, and if you take character names, landmark names, 3D models, etc.. that were property of another company and used them in your game.
Crafting is copied from game to game , xp gain to level, class archetypes, weapon types are all similar.
So again, really maybe I"m not just understanding what you mean by "rules"
I meant to say if u mushing together game rules, than u have to know, that each game rule u "stole" from other companies are protected by law... (Im not sure u know the procedure how companies start to make games, not to mention MMOs if ur asking me this) To start to make a game there have to be an idea first, and u can sure that the idea is protected. After they apply copyright law on a game idea, they start to make the game. (its possible that the game idea contains the game rules...
)
Just a good exaímple: the famous "Monopoly" is only have its game rules under copyright law.
"All game companies steal from each other."
- I think it in another way, you know theres an another "law" for that: Its about, if i think out exactly the same idea or product on the same way as you do witouth I seen ur idea or product (i can imagine it another way u done already, witouth ur help), then copyright law means nothing, coz i tought it out and i can proove that i dnt used ur idea.
So we just thinked in the same way. It can be that i figure out how to make a warcraft3 like game witouth using the company already released game....
"The only copyright issues I could see are the source code for the game, and if you take character names, landmark names, 3D models, etc.. that were property of another company and used them in your game."
- agreed, just u forgot to mention game idea, and game rules. (if they can proove that u stole from them, and can proove that isnt ur idea, u just wanted to use their idea or rules coz those fits for the game u tought out, than u pay...)
Well yea but the game rules of Monopoly center around "going to jail, community chest, marvin gardens, boardwalk etc.
There are other games that employ the rules of Staring on a point A and rolling a die or dice in order to progress. You can earn money,property, etc during the game.
So again, that goes to actually copying of the game specifically and not just we have a murder you walk around talk to npcs and solve the case.
Come on Massey you gotta get some better ideas instead of saying,
Why not a (insert vague genre here) MMO?
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
Isn't Funcom doing some sort of mystery/suspense MMO?
Anywho, the proposal sounds more like it would be best
adapted to private server/game room type games than an MMO.
Some of the things that deter from this idea:
I genuinely think you can't even incorporate mystery elements
in normal MMOs due to points 1 and 2.
As the MMO field evolves, it appears to me, they discard what doesn't work rather quickly.
This might cause throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but as long as players don't
ask for more, the baby wont be missed.