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How will MO handle macroing?
Yamota
Member UncommonPosts: 6,593
From what I have heard, from alot of people, macroing is one of the reasons that ruined Darkfall. Basically you either macro your skills up or be at a considerable advantage from those that doesn't.
Any word from the MO devs how feasible macroing skills will be and how/if they will handle it?
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Someone posted information about that a long time ago on MMORPG forums... if i remember correctly, he stated that when you gain a specific skill point, you can gain it again in the same area. In other words you have to be away a certain distance from the spot where you got your skill point before you can advance it further. I dont know if this is true or not but its what i heard.
I'm not sure how they are going to handle mortal online but it was a huge disappointment that in darkfall you had to macro in order to keep up with current grand master elitists in the game. I can't even stomach to log into darkfall anymore. It's too bad I have been waiting for that game sense 2002. Currently awaiting the new star wars game, if that fails for me then I am done with mmo's for good.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
The issue is not Darkfall specific, even if Darkfail faileded to address it properly, but is a problem for all skillbased MMORPGs that raises your skill by use rather than achievement.
I think the best sollution would for it to be based on both. I.e. if you swing your sword at a rat and your sword skill is already high then you wont raise it, period. However if you swing it at a dragon you would.
A "dumb" raise-by-using, with no check what you are using the skill for, would be doomed to fail. There needs to be some kind of check to make sure that what you are doing is difficult, compared to what your current skill level is, to raise the skill. Otherwise I think macro abuse would be very hard to avoid.
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The issue is not Darkfall specific, even if Darkfail faileded to address it properly, but is a problem for all skillbased MMORPGs that raises your skill by use rather than achievement.
I think the best sollution would for it to be based on both. I.e. if you swing your sword at a rat and your sword skill is already high then you wont raise it, period. However if you swing it at a dragon you would.
A "dumb" raise-by-using, with no check what you are using the skill for, would be doomed to fail. There needs to be some kind of check to make sure that what you are doing is difficult, compared to what your current skill level is, to raise the skill. Otherwise I think macro abuse would be very hard to avoid.
Classic EQ handled it well.
It was a hybrid. You had levels and also skills which needed to be used in order to raise them and be useful.
Everytime you reached a new level, which you made by gaining experience primarily through hunting mobs and therefore having to earn it, you would be allowed to raise your skill 5 more points maximum. Whether you macrod those 5 points or raised them legitimately really didn't matter since you still had to earn the level.
Would the community accept skill advancement only through PvE?
I don't know how a dev would determine difficulty through PvP, but here are some thoughts;
- Weapons and Armor are ranked, and skill advancement can only be gained when fighting against players with better gear.
- Alignment based skill advancement. Players only gain skill points when fighting against an opposite alignment ( probably via " declaring war " ).
- Decreasing skill advancement based on the players they have attacked / killed in the past.
The issue is not Darkfall specific, even if Darkfail faileded to address it properly, but is a problem for all skillbased MMORPGs that raises your skill by use rather than achievement.
I think the best sollution would for it to be based on both. I.e. if you swing your sword at a rat and your sword skill is already high then you wont raise it, period. However if you swing it at a dragon you would.
A "dumb" raise-by-using, with no check what you are using the skill for, would be doomed to fail. There needs to be some kind of check to make sure that what you are doing is difficult, compared to what your current skill level is, to raise the skill. Otherwise I think macro abuse would be very hard to avoid.
I know that. I've played mmorpg's for the last fifteen years and have played them all. That is one reason why I'm not even going to give mortal a chance because I am sick of playing sandbox games that require you to macro in order to keep up with other illegal macroing rejects. it would take me a hell of a time to grind skill's in darkfall vs a macro character that's on twenty four hours a day. The worst thing about darkfall is that there is no skill cap, that is the dumbest thing I've ever seen done in a skill game, why?, because macroing tools are going to macro forever and ever and ever while you are stuck behind getting demolished on and have no chance at surviving. Good lord, I cannot wait for SWTOR to come out. I am completely done with sandbox skill games.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
The issue is not Darkfall specific, even if Darkfail faileded to address it properly, but is a problem for all skillbased MMORPGs that raises your skill by use rather than achievement.
I think the best sollution would for it to be based on both. I.e. if you swing your sword at a rat and your sword skill is already high then you wont raise it, period. However if you swing it at a dragon you would.
A "dumb" raise-by-using, with no check what you are using the skill for, would be doomed to fail. There needs to be some kind of check to make sure that what you are doing is difficult, compared to what your current skill level is, to raise the skill. Otherwise I think macro abuse would be very hard to avoid.
I know that. I've played mmorpg's for the last fifteen years and have played them all. That is one reason why I'm not even going to give mortal a chance because I am sick of playing sandbox games that require you to macro in order to keep up with other illegal macroing rejects. it would take me a hell of a time to grind skill's in darkfall vs a macro character that's on twenty four hours a day. The worst thing about darkfall is that there is no skill cap, that is the dumbest thing I've ever seen done in a skill game, why?, because macroing tools are going to macro forever and ever and ever while you are stuck behind getting demolished on and have no chance at surviving. Good lord, I cannot wait for SWTOR to come out. I am completely done with sandbox skill games.
Altough I agree with you that skill based games have this problem, dont confuse sandbox with skill based MMORPGs. Sandbox simply means that the game is not on rails and you can go anywhere and do what you want without any artifical boundries. However it is quite possible for a game to be sandbox and have levels, Asherons Call is a perfect example of that as it was a hybrid level/skill based game.
I am all for sand box games, however pure skill based games, I see alot of issues with. The greatest is ofcourse macroers but also the fact that in skill based game it rarely matters what you do. You swing a sword against a rat and you get X point increase, you swing a sword against a dragon and you get the same increase. That's absurd and shouldn't be like that.
Again Asherons Call had the sollution. There you got both exp which could raise your skills AND they were raised by using said skill, also it mattered there what you actually fought. If you fought a real powerful foe, not only would you get more exp, but your offensive skills would go up more. However there was very few restrictions based on your player level and a level 10 could, properly equipped and buffed, kill a level 200 mob (or player) as the deciding factor were your skills and equipment and not your player level which was just an indicator for how much exp you have accumulated.
That game had, imo, the perfect model. Too bad Turbine didnt realise that and went for a linear, class balanced POS with LOTRO.
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The issue is not Darkfall specific, even if Darkfail faileded to address it properly, but is a problem for all skillbased MMORPGs that raises your skill by use rather than achievement.
I think the best sollution would for it to be based on both. I.e. if you swing your sword at a rat and your sword skill is already high then you wont raise it, period. However if you swing it at a dragon you would.
A "dumb" raise-by-using, with no check what you are using the skill for, would be doomed to fail. There needs to be some kind of check to make sure that what you are doing is difficult, compared to what your current skill level is, to raise the skill. Otherwise I think macro abuse would be very hard to avoid.
I know that. I've played mmorpg's for the last fifteen years and have played them all. That is one reason why I'm not even going to give mortal a chance because I am sick of playing sandbox games that require you to macro in order to keep up with other illegal macroing rejects. it would take me a hell of a time to grind skill's in darkfall vs a macro character that's on twenty four hours a day. The worst thing about darkfall is that there is no skill cap, that is the dumbest thing I've ever seen done in a skill game, why?, because macroing tools are going to macro forever and ever and ever while you are stuck behind getting demolished on and have no chance at surviving. Good lord, I cannot wait for SWTOR to come out. I am completely done with sandbox skill games.
Altough I agree with you that skill based games have this problem, dont confuse sandbox with skill based MMORPGs. Sandbox simply means that the game is not on rails and you can go anywhere and do what you want without any artifical boundries. However it is quite possible for a game to be sandbox and have levels, Asherons Call is a perfect example of that as it was a hybrid level/skill based game.
I am all for sand box games, however pure skill based games, I see alot of issues with. The greatest is ofcourse macroers but also the fact that in skill based game it rarely matters what you do. You swing a sword against a rat and you get X point increase, you swing a sword against a dragon and you get the same increase. That's absurd and shouldn't be like that.
Again Asherons Call had the sollution. There you got both exp which could raise your skills AND they were raised by using said skill, also it mattered there what you actually fought. If you fought a real powerful foe, not only would you get more exp, but your offensive skills would go up more. However there was very few restrictions based on your player level and a level 10 could, properly equipped and buffed, kill a level 200 mob (or player) as the deciding factor were your skills and equipment and not your player level which was just an indicator for how much exp you have accumulated.
That game had, imo, the perfect model. Too bad Turbine didnt realise that and went for a linear, class balanced POS with LOTRO.
Are you kidding me dude?. Are you trying to school me or something?. I was one of the oldest pk's on darktide. I think I know about asherons call. And you are wrong, Asherons Call had macroing up the arse also. I think you need to rephrase that answer. Every game that usually comes out sandbox are skill based games, so that's why I added sandbox within my post.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
I'm not sure how they will avoid macroing in MO, but if the description of the skill system is accurate, whether you macro or not won't matter as much as in Darkfall. Macroing is mainly a problem when macroers get a huge advantage in pvp. In MO, primary skills and attributes determine the majority of your damage output and passive defenses. The total amount of skill points used for primary skills, and total attribute points are hard capped, and it won't take long to get to the skill cap, whether you macro your way there, or not.
Secondary skills take longer to advance, and which secondary skills you have access to is determined by your current attributes and primary skills. If macroing is possible, macroers will certainly be able to max out their secondary skills faster, but secondary skills are mainly used to boost PVE centric skills. You will (on paper) be able to be competiitive in pvp if you have capped primary skills, and a sensible build. (primary skills can be raised/lowered after you have reached the cap on total skillpoints like in UO).
So, I doubt that SV will be able to stop macroers entirely, but easy-to-reach hardcaps on pvp-centric skills should make sure that macroers will just get a few days head start. They won't keep pulling ahead with every hour spent macroing like they do in Darkfall.
It would not be that hard for the Dev's to make it so you could only skill up on worthy opponents, whether it be PVE or PVP. (although I concede, PVP is more challenging)
Another great idea is a level cap on skills that all players can reasonably reach. A cap on the number of skills a character may have should also be institued, at least on specific groups or types. (i.e. combat skills, vs crafting skills, vs exploring skills etc)
But what we haven't seen is anyone jump in here and say...."this is how MO plans to do it"
I fear they may have taken the DF approach so far.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Are you kidding me dude?. Are you trying to school me or something?. I was one of the oldest pk's on darktide. I think I know about asherons call. And you are wrong, Asherons Call had macroing up the arse also. I think you need to rephrase that answer. Every game that usually comes out sandbox are skill based games, so that's why I added sandbox within my post.
It seems like you are way too defensive to engage into any kind of meaningful discussions but why not. First I certainly was not wrong, AC had problems with macroing but not in the sense that it raised skills but rather that it created bots to kill mobs to get exp. The reason was that the higher level your skill got the less your skill increased by use.
But if you are such a "leet" DT pk you should know that. Right?
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If leveling is so quick in the game that it only takes a few days to max your primary skills then what will you do in the game? Just PvPing? Wont an FPS game be better if you just want to FPS without the advancement part that typical RPGs have?
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This is pretty much dead on.
You can't stop macro'ers because the GM's have to see the offender in action. I think there are going to be some secondary skills that enhance your combat abilities though. It's not just how much you macro. You actually have to have some skill as a player as well. With aimed and times strikes, manual blocking and manueverability... you could potentially take down a much more powerful foe. Also, you are free to customize your character any way you like. Perhaps that enemy is stronger in more areas, but you have a few skills that really screw with their plans. Ultimately, you may get to your hardcap later than the macro'er. However, there is a hardcap and they can't go over it. You'll get there eventually. Why does it always have to be about who gets there first? Just play the game and have fun in your own time.
If leveling is so quick in the game that it only takes a few days to max your primary skills then what will you do in the game? Just PvPing? Wont an FPS game be better if you just want to FPS without the advancement part that typical RPGs have?
Can't people get past the idea of end-game? This sort of game doesn't have end-game. Your secondary skills are going to take a LONG time to max. Start a new character. Build a home. Decorate it. Hunt powerful creatures. Fight for territory control. Become a master blacksmith. Get a ship and go sailing. Become a fisherman. Make potions. Offer your services as an assassin/mercenary. Live the life of a murderer, killing for power and profit. Live the life of a bounty hunter, protect all that is good. Role-play with a RP community.
I could go on, but I think you get my point. Fact is, you can do so many things in this game if you just look around. It gives you the ability to do just about anything.
If leveling is so quick in the game that it only takes a few days to max your primary skills then what will you do in the game? Just PvPing? Wont an FPS game be better if you just want to FPS without the advancement part that typical RPGs have?
Yamota sorry to say this but you have no clue how the skill system actually works you should actually read up their news on how the skill system works its off the main MO website (sorry I cant link it im on my mobile INet and its a major hassle), the primary skills are only really the very basic beginning and that alone will take 2 weeks so think of it this way primary skils are just like setting up your talent tree, secondary skills are the real meat of the system and this will take alot of time since one secondary skill can be the prerequesite of another secondary that in fact can be another pre-requesite for another and 2 secondary skills totally unrelated can be the pre-requesite for another this will take alot of time to develop not to mention more likely than not you will not just hit the jackpot with the right combination of primary skills that fit your playstyle.
What this system also accomplishes since you wont unlearn secondary skills is that you can change your character playstyle at any one point basically removing the need for alts, ofc people that focus on their one spec will most likely be able to advance much further, and if I did really get their concept correctly then there wont be 2 characters alike since with the branching and choices your gonna have to do specially on the more advanced skills your character will be truly unique and complex.
This is not directly related to Macroing I just really wanted to clarify on their skill system.
If leveling is so quick in the game that it only takes a few days to max your primary skills then what will you do in the game? Just PvPing? Wont an FPS game be better if you just want to FPS without the advancement part that typical RPGs have?
This was answered by others already, but I'd like to reply as well. The fact that you can cap out your primary skills early, only means that you hit a plateau early, not that all sense of progression stops at this point. Let's, for the sake of argument, say that your primary skills gives you 90% of your skill related damage output and defenses, and that you can improve this 10% further through raising secondary skills for your current build. What this means is that at the point where you hit the skillpoint cap for primary skils you can:
Those are just examples of how you can keep character advancement going for much longer than the couple of weeks it takes to max out primary skills. What it doesn't let you do is keep advancing your character's passive abilities in a linear fashion for months, like Darkfall and Korean grinders. A naked 3 year old character shouldn't be more than 10-20% stronger than a naked 3 week old character who has focused on the right skills. Of course, having played longer comes with wealth, experience, and maybe a few nifty tricks that come with "useless" secondary skills that a new player wouldn't focus on from the start.
Wait you guys know that skill advancement combat wise for whatever type of fighter you'll be gets capped very quickly so in the end it will all just rely on whos better. As for crafting I think its much to complicated to make a macro that works for it and what the guy above me said.
Exactly the real meat of the system are the learning skills that require more time and or very specific actions, you cant possibly macro increasing your taming of animals for instance it just doesnt happen your gonna have to be there find it and possible "battle" with it for a bit, actual melee combat wont improve that much from the skill system since they want it to have a more player interaction value, even so I think there will be alot of advanced secondary skills that will still take time to perfect such as maybe being able to shoot acurately with a bow from a horse.
If leveling is so quick in the game that it only takes a few days to max your primary skills then what will you do in the game? Just PvPing? Wont an FPS game be better if you just want to FPS without the advancement part that typical RPGs have?
Yamota sorry to say this but you have no clue how the skill system actually works you should actually read up their news on how the skill system works its off the main MO website (sorry I cant link it im on my mobile INet and its a major hassle), the primary skills are only really the very basic beginning and that alone will take 2 weeks so think of it this way primary skils are just like setting up your talent tree, secondary skills are the real meat of the system and this will take alot of time since one secondary skill can be the prerequesite of another secondary that in fact can be another pre-requesite for another and 2 secondary skills totally unrelated can be the pre-requesite for another this will take alot of time to develop not to mention more likely than not you will not just hit the jackpot with the right combination of primary skills that fit your playstyle.
What this system also accomplishes since you wont unlearn secondary skills is that you can change your character playstyle at any one point basically removing the need for alts, ofc people that focus on their one spec will most likely be able to advance much further, and if I did really get their concept correctly then there wont be 2 characters alike since with the branching and choices your gonna have to do specially on the more advanced skills your character will be truly unique and complex.
This is not directly related to Macroing I just really wanted to clarify on their skill system.
Have I claimed to know anything about the skill system? Do you see those question marks I put there? That usually means you are asking something rather than stating it.
And what you said somewhat contradicts the other poster that says that macroing wont be an issue becuase, in PvP, it is mostly your primary skills that decide the outcome. So you are saying that the secondary skill also matter in PvP?
As for the info on their website, after Darkfall, I tend to take info stated on indie companies websites with a grain of salt.
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No thats not what I meant actually my post was in relation to you saying that once your primary skills are trained you wont have anything else to do, primary skills are really just the basic of the system, it really has nothing to do with macroing what I said, you can refer to my post previous to this one which is related to the Macroing topic.
Here I post possible skill gain mechanic that is very flexible and can be tuned in different ways to match differnet skills:
www.mortalonline.com/forums/15717-skill-gain-anti-exploit-mechanic.html
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
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Ok I have now carefully read about skills on the main site and what you guys said.
So far it seems clear. However I didnt read anywhere that secondary skills will be mostly non PvP skills that wont matter much in PvP. So judging from what is said about skills on their site it seems that it is the secondary skills that are in danger of being macro exploited.
So to get back to the original concern. Has the devs adressed the issue of macro abuse to raise skills? Or is it unknown at this point.
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Ok I have now carefully read about skills on the main site and what you guys said.
So far it seems clear. However I didnt read anywhere that secondary skills will be mostly non PvP skills that wont matter much in PvP. So judging from what is said about skills on their site it seems that it is the secondary skills that are in danger of being macro exploited.
So to get back to the original concern. Has the devs adressed the issue of macro abuse to raise skills? Or is it unknown at this point.
Here's a developer quote saying secondary skills will matter much less than primary skills in pvp: www.mortalonline.com/forums/4153-why-hardcap.html#post86758
As for methods to avoid macro abuse, I have not read anything other than generic "macroers will be banned", and that they don't want to reveal what kind of anti-cheat software they will use. Seeing how much the skill advancement system is inspired by UO, it's likely that you'll have to move around while using skills to keep getting skill-gains, but I can't find a link to any official comments on the issue.
The issue is not Darkfall specific, even if Darkfail faileded to address it properly, but is a problem for all skillbased MMORPGs that raises your skill by use rather than achievement.
I think the best sollution would for it to be based on both. I.e. if you swing your sword at a rat and your sword skill is already high then you wont raise it, period. However if you swing it at a dragon you would.
A "dumb" raise-by-using, with no check what you are using the skill for, would be doomed to fail. There needs to be some kind of check to make sure that what you are doing is difficult, compared to what your current skill level is, to raise the skill. Otherwise I think macro abuse would be very hard to avoid.
UO had that what, 10 years ago?
Your opinion is immaterial.
Ok I have now carefully read about skills on the main site and what you guys said.
So far it seems clear. However I didnt read anywhere that secondary skills will be mostly non PvP skills that wont matter much in PvP. So judging from what is said about skills on their site it seems that it is the secondary skills that are in danger of being macro exploited.
So to get back to the original concern. Has the devs adressed the issue of macro abuse to raise skills? Or is it unknown at this point.
Here's a developer quote saying secondary skills will matter much less than primary skills in pvp: www.mortalonline.com/forums/4153-why-hardcap.html#post86758
As for methods to avoid macro abuse, I have not read anything other than generic "macroers will be banned", and that they don't want to reveal what kind of anti-cheat software they will use. Seeing how much the skill advancement system is inspired by UO, it's likely that you'll have to move around while using skills to keep getting skill-gains, but I can't find a link to any official comments on the issue.
According to that post, they will matter less, but they will still matter:
"Those Secondary Skills will not make or break your fight (only in very rare cases), but they will make a difference in the long run."
So it is not like they are irrelevant.
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