Well, I suppose it comes down to a player mentality, like someone here already suggested.
For some, raiding in a MMORPG is more like a competitive sport. They want to be surrounded by the best players. They take performance very seriously. For some, raiding in a MMORPG is more like a hobby. They want to be surrounded by acquintances and friends. They play for fun.
I personally fall in the middle and I think some other games handled raiding much better. Raiding in WoW, past classic, has not been as much fun as it was in other games. And no, I am not an amateur raider, I have raided the high-end content prior to nerfs and been involved in server first kills in bosses like Kael'Thas. The introduction of achievements and hardmodes sucked the last bit out of me. I tolerated damage and threat meters. I tolerated many elitist jackasses who think we only raid for their benefit. But the addition of achievements and hardmodes made many factors in the raiding much worse.
Lastly, theorycrafting has existed long before introduction of damage and threat meters in WoW. I kinda agree that WoW is a bit like playing with an excel spreadsheet. It is like that because Blizzard allows so much information about the game to be used with third-party mods. I would argue that it is too much information and that it hampers the immersion. Plus, all encounters must be designed based on the fact that most raiding guilds use these meters. This is the reason why so many encounters have the enrage timer.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I love raiding. Its not just the pretty loot. The teamwork, getting to see content, and achieving a difficult objective is why I play mmo's. Raiding in World of Warcraft though has killed my love for this playstyle. Raiding in WoW has a way of slowly sucking the fun out of the game. It starts out with meters and ends in frustration. First up is the vaunted meter. Guilds like to use WWS and individuals like Recount. These meters are judge and jury. They have taken over WoW. Ask someone what theyre dps was pre-bc in say Molten Core and nobody knows. But ask what they do in Uld and everyone can quote numbers. To get into a raid or guild you must show and know your dps. The first question when trying to get into a pug for any raid is whats your dps. So you must download these addons so you can see what your doing. Once you see your numbers more work begins. You have to research rotations to see what you can do to improve your numbers. Pretty soon your spending hours on websites like elitistjerks.com and the wow forums. Next you find yourself working in-game to get food stockpiled for raids. You also need flasks and mana / health pots. You can either farm mats and make them or farm gold to buy them. This in itself can become a full-time job. You cant outspend what a raid costs because you will also need to accumulate gold to enchant and gem new loot as you aquire it. So daily quests and farming become a part of prep work for raiding. You see other players in your class doing more dps so more research is needed. Its discovered that they use addons for dot timers, cooldowns on attacks, etc so those become a necessity. Eventually your screen is so full of addon boxes that the potential to induce a seizure is possible. Your spending 2 hrs a day prepping for a raid that night. And for what, so you can do more dps or heal for yet another raid. And when Blizz adds another dungeon you start all over again. during a raid you find yourself watching the meter. No longer do you do an attack because it looks cool or is fun. Its all about blowing out max damage or heals as quickly as possible. The game with all the addons turns into something nothing like a game. I feel more like an accountant plugging in numbers for some math problem. Its very stressful, are people actually enjoying this ? And in the end you (maybe) like myself realize that the raid is utterly pointless. Its no longer about the story, content, or fun but rather simply about loot to do better numbers for some meter. Ive raided for years in other mmo's and it didnt become the job that it does in WoW. And before I get the flames, I did quite well according to those silly meters. I just resent the fact that they exist at all. Nobody told me my dps sucked or what rotation was I doing in star wars galaxies while fighting a krayt. Nobody asked me anything when raiding in lotr (before expansion anyway, I hear things are like wow now over there). I cant begin to understand how anyone enjoys playing with all these addons and meters and formulas and math and macros and rotations
So the don't raid. I constantly hear complaints about having to raid in wow all the time. So don't do it. No one is forcing you to raid or raid to the extent that you hate it.
For the time I played wow I never played with the idea that I had to get to the raiding stage. Of all the WoW players I know, none raid.
If you don't like something in a game then don't do it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I love raiding. Its not just the pretty loot. The teamwork, getting to see content, and achieving a difficult objective is why I play mmo's. Raiding in World of Warcraft though has killed my love for this playstyle. Raiding in WoW has a way of slowly sucking the fun out of the game. It starts out with meters and ends in frustration. First up is the vaunted meter. Guilds like to use WWS and individuals like Recount. These meters are judge and jury. They have taken over WoW. Ask someone what theyre dps was pre-bc in say Molten Core and nobody knows. But ask what they do in Uld and everyone can quote numbers. To get into a raid or guild you must show and know your dps. The first question when trying to get into a pug for any raid is whats your dps. So you must download these addons so you can see what your doing. Once you see your numbers more work begins. You have to research rotations to see what you can do to improve your numbers. Pretty soon your spending hours on websites like elitistjerks.com and the wow forums. Next you find yourself working in-game to get food stockpiled for raids. You also need flasks and mana / health pots. You can either farm mats and make them or farm gold to buy them. This in itself can become a full-time job. You cant outspend what a raid costs because you will also need to accumulate gold to enchant and gem new loot as you aquire it. So daily quests and farming become a part of prep work for raiding. You see other players in your class doing more dps so more research is needed. Its discovered that they use addons for dot timers, cooldowns on attacks, etc so those become a necessity. Eventually your screen is so full of addon boxes that the potential to induce a seizure is possible. Your spending 2 hrs a day prepping for a raid that night. And for what, so you can do more dps or heal for yet another raid. And when Blizz adds another dungeon you start all over again. during a raid you find yourself watching the meter. No longer do you do an attack because it looks cool or is fun. Its all about blowing out max damage or heals as quickly as possible. The game with all the addons turns into something nothing like a game. I feel more like an accountant plugging in numbers for some math problem. Its very stressful, are people actually enjoying this ? And in the end you (maybe) like myself realize that the raid is utterly pointless. Its no longer about the story, content, or fun but rather simply about loot to do better numbers for some meter. Ive raided for years in other mmo's and it didnt become the job that it does in WoW. And before I get the flames, I did quite well according to those silly meters. I just resent the fact that they exist at all. Nobody told me my dps sucked or what rotation was I doing in star wars galaxies while fighting a krayt. Nobody asked me anything when raiding in lotr (before expansion anyway, I hear things are like wow now over there). I cant begin to understand how anyone enjoys playing with all these addons and meters and formulas and math and macros and rotations
So the don't raid. I constantly hear complaints about having to raid in wow all the time. So don't do it. No one is forcing you to raid or raid to the extent that you hate it.
For the time I played wow I never played with the idea that I had to get to the raiding stage. Of all the WoW players I know, none raid.
If you don't like something in a game then don't do it.
I agree i also hated the raiding in wow to repetitive for me so i just quit now i don't have to complain about it (^_^)V
I used to raid abit in LOTRO and WoW but I recently quit because it isnt worth it to me anymore. When it comes down to it for me, whats the point raiding night after night for something thats made up of pixels....LOL. It isnt real, it isnt real life. The moment I started planning my week around my raid schedule I quit. I now look to polished pvp/pve content to challenge me because I can come and go as I please...I feel so FREE!!! LOL
I didnt try any of the raid content in WoW but I'm sure if I did the crowd it draws and the time needed to take part would bore me in no time. It really is sad that most MMORPGs only offer raids at end-game to keep us busy isnt it? :-/ I got bored of my fully geared blood elf pvp mage in WoW fast because the end-game pvp content WoW offers is horrible.
I used to raid abit in LOTRO and WoW but I recently quit because it isnt worth it to me anymore. When it comes down to it for me, whats the point raiding night after night for something thats made up of pixels....LOL. It isnt real, it isnt real life. The moment I started planning my week around my raid schedule I quit. I now look to polished pvp/pve content to challenge me because I can come and go as I please...I feel so FREE!!! LOL I didnt try any of the raid content in WoW but I'm sure if I did the crowd it draws and the time needed to take part would bore me in no time. It really is sad that most MMORPGs only offer raids at end-game to keep us busy isnt it? :-/ I got bored of my fully geared blood elf pvp mage in WoW fast because the end-game pvp content WoW offers is horrible.
Well, most MMOs offer repetitive things to do as their end-game simply because it is nearly impossible to pump out quality content at the rate that the most "hardcore" players would need it. However, there are different ways to handle it.
WoW's end-game is pretty much focused on raiding and/or arena. Both are gear grinds, but the latter can also be quite competitive eSports type of thing. Both are also about rewards with very little risks to no risks.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
It all started with EQ when the elitist raid guilds refused to allow other guilds and player access to top tier content. It continued in WoW with elitist guilds and eventually damage meters because WoW was designed by EQ raiders. The way I see it, you raiders have brought it onto yourselves. Raiders built WoW and the whole set up allows for the elitist attitudes to persist.
What your talking happened on a very few servers in EQ. EQ raiding was always fun for me.... We also talked to the other guilds on the server that were raiding the same things we were to work out a fair system so all guilds got a shot at the raids. So do not give me this bullshit Please.
WoW was not built by EQ raiders.... Sure some EQ players are on the developer team for WoW but come on.
Originally posted by Torik I had a very similar experience with my old guild. pre-BC WoW raiding pretty much sucked the life out it. The issue is that raiding really is 'serious business'. If you goof off you get the raid wiped. While an individual person might shrug the death off, you now share the responsibility for the enjoyment of others who most likely are your friends. It makes you feel bad that your carelessness or incompetence cost other time. So there is a very serious incentive for a decent human being to try to take things more seriously. You are not just playing for your enjoyment but for the enjoyment of others. Analogy: if I am cooking for myself I will likely just cook something up fast but if I am cooking for family or friends I will take extra care.
You are there for your enjoyment, i find what you say absolutely crazy. wow is a game not a way of life, if you wipe it doesnt matter, it wont change the world in anyway. And for your cooking analogy, would you cook something you hated so your friends could enjoy eating it and not you? no you wouldnt so why do it in wow. get a life.
In a social interaction you are not just 'therr for your own enjoyment'. If your actions are going to negatively affect other human being then it is your responsibility to consider whether you should continue with those actions. Just because you think that something does not matter, it does not mean that you have to sabotage it for those for whom it matters. Thing do not have to 'change the world' to matter to people. I find your attitude very selfish.
As far as the cooking analogy, I would most definetly cook something for my friends that I hated. They are my friends so I like to see them enjoy their food. I would still try to cook something that we all really like but I would never cook us my favourite food when I know they hate it.
Originally posted by Reklaw I still find it funny that people actualy need game guides on classes to improve their playstyle, it's as if those people are not really able to play and understand what they are playing so they resort to the easy path and not learn from the game itself but look at game guides.
I see people who try to "learn from the game itself" all the time. 90% of them suck badly. I've never seen any of them truely excel.
It seems to me that wise people in any discipline are humble enough to know that no matter how much they know, there's still something they can learn from others. Would Shakespeare have been such a great author if he had never read a book or seen a play? Would Einstein have invented relativity if he had never read a book on mathematics or physics?
Anyone who is serious about improving their performance, in any discipline, does everything possible to get better. And that includes learning from others.
I never said that it's not okay to learn from others, I just like to learn from others or be helpfull towards others ingame. But then again the whole reason of me playing games is to discover,explore, learn, be entertained, be helpfull towards the community I play with and for me that can all be done ingame.
Just understand that each persons experiance can be very different, you where unlucky to meet about 90% of players you felt didn't know their play to well, my experiance is different. Of course I could see the inpatient type of player that grinds to to cap lvl asap and still knowns nothing, but I tend to ignore those......
Lastly, theorycrafting has existed long before introduction of damage and threat meters in WoW. I kinda agree that WoW is a bit like playing with an excel spreadsheet. It is like that because Blizzard allows so much information about the game to be used with third-party mods. I would argue that it is too much information and that it hampers the immersion. Plus, all encounters must be designed based on the fact that most raiding guilds use these meters. This is the reason why so many encounters have the enrage timer.
People will develop tools to back out those info whether you like it or not. Before WOW let's player see the actual health (only %) of mobs, there is a mob that will calculate that info (abate not perfectly) based on tracking damages and %.
So Blizzard eventually provides that info. Same for quest helper. The next patch is going to incorporate some QH functionality. I think it is BETTER for blizzard to do it then people using 3rd party software because of stability, and other issues.
Optimizing is just part of the fun. If lots of people find it fun, Blizzard should support it. Hack-n-slash + optimizing is a very popular style of play since Diablo.
My qualm with raiding and the endgame of MMOs (and the reason I left the genre) is this: If you were to totally isolate it from the rest of the game, would it be as good or enjoyable as a "normal" non-MMO game? For me the answer has always been no.
WoW is a perfect case in point. Here you have this massive world with thousands of players on each server, yet the end game PvP-wise is nothing more than a lesser version of Team Fortress 2 or Counterstrike. Why didn't they just make a Warcraft fighting game with individual and team options? Now there's something I WOULD like to play instead of sogging through a bunch of useless grinding, equipment requirements, etc.
Raiding is even more of a let down. It's the equivalent of making an MMORPG based on our contemporary world where your character has to become a synchronized swimmer or a member of an orchestra in order to progress. It's pointless, and has no basis in reality. In the real, free world, it is possible to succeed as an individual.
Bottom line: MMOs pretty much suck. They need to rethink the reasons why they have a massive world in the first place.
I love raiding. Its not just the pretty loot. The teamwork, getting to see content, and achieving a difficult objective is why I play mmo's. Raiding in World of Warcraft though has killed my love for this playstyle. Raiding in WoW has a way of slowly sucking the fun out of the game. It starts out with meters and ends in frustration. First up is the vaunted meter. Guilds like to use WWS and individuals like Recount. These meters are judge and jury. They have taken over WoW. Ask someone what theyre dps was pre-bc in say Molten Core and nobody knows. But ask what they do in Uld and everyone can quote numbers. To get into a raid or guild you must show and know your dps. The first question when trying to get into a pug for any raid is whats your dps. So you must download these addons so you can see what your doing. Once you see your numbers more work begins. You have to research rotations to see what you can do to improve your numbers. Pretty soon your spending hours on websites like elitistjerks.com and the wow forums. Next you find yourself working in-game to get food stockpiled for raids. You also need flasks and mana / health pots. You can either farm mats and make them or farm gold to buy them. This in itself can become a full-time job. You cant outspend what a raid costs because you will also need to accumulate gold to enchant and gem new loot as you aquire it. So daily quests and farming become a part of prep work for raiding. You see other players in your class doing more dps so more research is needed. Its discovered that they use addons for dot timers, cooldowns on attacks, etc so those become a necessity. Eventually your screen is so full of addon boxes that the potential to induce a seizure is possible. Your spending 2 hrs a day prepping for a raid that night. And for what, so you can do more dps or heal for yet another raid. And when Blizz adds another dungeon you start all over again. during a raid you find yourself watching the meter. No longer do you do an attack because it looks cool or is fun. Its all about blowing out max damage or heals as quickly as possible. The game with all the addons turns into something nothing like a game. I feel more like an accountant plugging in numbers for some math problem. Its very stressful, are people actually enjoying this ? And in the end you (maybe) like myself realize that the raid is utterly pointless. Its no longer about the story, content, or fun but rather simply about loot to do better numbers for some meter. Ive raided for years in other mmo's and it didnt become the job that it does in WoW. And before I get the flames, I did quite well according to those silly meters. I just resent the fact that they exist at all. Nobody told me my dps sucked or what rotation was I doing in star wars galaxies while fighting a krayt. Nobody asked me anything when raiding in lotr (before expansion anyway, I hear things are like wow now over there). I cant begin to understand how anyone enjoys playing with all these addons and meters and formulas and math and macros and rotations
Where do the tactics come in? All I see is managing hp,mana and dps. If they are only interested in your dps, then raid instances in WoW must be bloody easy lol like the other dungeons Ive seen during my short WoW time.
What I still remember from the time I played WoW (before first expansion), is that most ppl just solo their way to max lvl and barely play in team before that. The mobs are also very easy for that. Easy to pull and barely react on each other. Outside instances there are rarely complex patrol patterns or mobs that act as groups with different roles for different npcs (heal, debuff, dps etc).
So when ppl finally start playing in instances they simply dont know about the basic stuff. They dont keep track of where their teammembers are, or what their hp is during fights, or when to quit dps when their healer gets low on mana. They also rarely see adds coming. All very basic teamplay stuff. But then I came from Guild Wars back then and was used to only play in teams and didnt know any better.
My perception of so called 'pro' teamplay in WoW was that it was very single minded and only about the holy trinity. Tank, dps, heal. Just basic stuff really. No real tactics. But to be honest Ive never raided in WoW, only did lower lvl instances, so I wonder if its any different in those raid instances.
Originally posted by TeranHawkins You also forgot about the fact that raiding is between 3-5 days a week usually at least 4 hours each of those days. It turns into a part time job! That's why I quit raiding back in BC. Now I'm happy with getting welfare epics from the battlegrounds.
I hate that term...."welfare epics".
I swear I think a butthurt raider who went into pvp and got his ass handed to him made that up.
There is nothing wellfare about it, it takes just as much time as raiding does.
Lmao, raiding in WoW today is NOTHING compared to pre-tbc. The 40 man raids at level 60 were 100 times harder and demanded more attention than ever. Raiding nowadays is laughable.
It all started with EQ when the elitist raid guilds refused to allow other guilds and player access to top tier content. It continued in WoW with elitist guilds and eventually damage meters because WoW was designed by EQ raiders. The way I see it, you raiders have brought it onto yourselves. Raiders built WoW and the whole set up allows for the elitist attitudes to persist.
What your talking happened on a very few servers in EQ. EQ raiding was always fun for me.... We also talked to the other guilds on the server that were raiding the same things we were to work out a fair system so all guilds got a shot at the raids. So do not give me this bullshit Please.
WoW was not built by EQ raiders.... Sure some EQ players are on the developer team for WoW but come on.
Jeffrey "Tigole" Kaplan was a designer for WoW specifically responsible for quest, instance and raid content. The reason he was hired by Blizzard was because he was a huge raider in EQ and a friend of Rob Pardo, who was a lead designer in WoW and a member of the same guild as Tigole.
In other words, you have a lead designer and a designer responsible for quest, raid and instance content being members of an EQ raiding guild.
So let me rephrase that: WoW was designed by EQ raiders.
Quite honestly, the scheduling and lockouts is what killed raiding for me. I think it was best handled in AO when semi automated chat bot commanded all of the raiding. One wasn't restricted by guild, just be online at that time or in a spawning team to hoping to pop a raid target. Sure depending on your playtime and day you might not be able to do certain raids, but I found that factor to add to the enjoyment of participating in those certain raids when your timing is good.AO had a more varied endgame then WOW.
However it didn't always used to be like that, back in vanilla WoW, and even BC, it was quite fun while still requiring a lot of work and effort.
Suffice to say, it's not WoW that killed raiding, it's the people playing it.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW -------- Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD --------- Played and loved: Eve and WoW -------- Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
You also forgot about the fact that raiding is between 3-5 days a week usually at least 4 hours each of those days. It turns into a part time job! That's why I quit raiding back in BC. Now I'm happy with getting welfare epics from the battlegrounds.
I hate that term...."welfare epics".
I swear I think a butthurt raider who went into pvp and got his ass handed to him made that up.
There is nothing wellfare about it, it takes just as much time as raiding does.
That is a misconception. Sorry. The term was coined because people were getting epics, regardless of how bad they were. Thats the key here. People we're afking en mass so they can farm honor, and buy epics with honor points. Aside from doing the work of puting an oscilating fan with a pencil stick to it, hiting your keyboard to keep you from going afk... it was very much "welfare". That or botting or what ever method they chose to afk alterac valley.
You also forgot about the fact that raiding is between 3-5 days a week usually at least 4 hours each of those days. It turns into a part time job! That's why I quit raiding back in BC. Now I'm happy with getting welfare epics from the battlegrounds.
I hate that term...."welfare epics".
I swear I think a butthurt raider who went into pvp and got his ass handed to him made that up.
There is nothing wellfare about it, it takes just as much time as raiding does.
That is a misconception. Sorry. The term was coined because people were getting epics, regardless of how bad they were. Thats the key here. People we're afking en mass so they can farm honor, and buy epics with honor points. Aside from doing the work of puting an oscilating fan with a pencil stick to it, hiting your keyboard to keep you from going afk... it was very much "welfare". That or botting or what ever method they chose to afk alterac valley.
sounds like johnspartan to me...
i think thats how he got his "Elitist Douchebag" achievement
Welfare Epics - a term coined to Jeff Kaplan (Tigole), Blizzard developer. While he might have ment it as a joke, do not blame others using it. If a Blizzard developer said it, it must be the truth. Plus I believe it was a Freudian slip.
At BlizzCon, Lead Designer Jeff Kaplan (Tigole) said a lot of interesting things. He called Arena gear "Welfare Epics" -- that raiders earn their gear.
50 seconds into the raiding panel at Blizzcon you can hear the term used in a video:
"So, we're not here to talk about solo player content today. Or PVP with your welfare Arena epics or anything like that. This round is for people actually go out and earn their epics by killing hard bosses in dungeons."
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Originally posted by Zorndorf Originally posted by logangregor
Originally posted by TeranHawkins You also forgot about the fact that raiding is between 3-5 days a week usually at least 4 hours each of those days. It turns into a part time job! That's why I quit raiding back in BC. Now I'm happy with getting welfare epics from the battlegrounds.
I hate that term...."welfare epics". I swear I think a butthurt raider who went into pvp and got his ass handed to him made that up.
There is nothing wellfare about it, it takes just as much time as raiding does.
Indeed. It were the old hardcore raiders that also were against resilience. 3 years ago they could steam roll everyone with their precious Raid gear in the BG's. Now it's the other way around and so they invented the term "welfare" and hate Arenas too btw. Because doing the ultimate Raid content these days is no longer a guarantee you can score in PvP (BG's and Arena). Only the weapons were taken out of the BG's, but the top second best are still avaliable in Arena. Raiders that don't like PvP (and aren't always very good at) invented the term "welfare".
I think hell just froze over....me and zorn agree on something.
I hate arenas though. I dunno...maybe if I got a good team. Its that first day where I just feel like the worst pvp'er ever.
I wish the pvp was more like DAOCs. Oh and did you hear, resilience will mean even more than it does now in 3.2. Will that really help the softer classes though...mages/rogues?
Originally posted by thexrated Welfare Epics - a term coined to Jeff Kaplan (Tigole), Blizzard developer. While he might have ment it as a joke, do not blame others using it. If a Blizzard developer said it, it must be the truth. Plus I believe it was a Freudian slip. At BlizzCon, Lead Designer Jeff Kaplan (Tigole) said a lot of interesting things. He called Arena gear "Welfare Epics" -- that raiders earn their gear. 50 seconds into the raiding panel at Blizzcon you can hear the term used in a video: "So, we're not here to talk about solo player content today. Or PVP with your welfare Arena epics or anything like that. This round is for people actually go out and earn their epics by killing hard bosses in dungeons."
Jeff Tigole is an asshole. Earn...lol.
I like raiding more than I used to, but get this.... We could be on a boss and I could die in the first 5 secs, do a total of 100 dmg and contribute nothing else to the raid but that doesnt affect what drops, or if I get to roll on it.
So I did nothing for that boss and got a epic piece of gear. Sounds pretty welfare.
As far as not blaming someone for using it because someone made up the term, Im sure someone else made up the N word but your not going to find me using it. And if I used it in company that might get offended, I wouldnt be surprised that they got angry. And in defending myself you wouldnt hear me say "DONT HATE, I DIDNT MAKE THE WORD UP!"
I love raiding. Its not just the pretty loot. The teamwork, getting to see content, and achieving a difficult objective is why I play mmo's. Raiding in World of Warcraft though has killed my love for this playstyle. Raiding in WoW has a way of slowly sucking the fun out of the game. It starts out with meters and ends in frustration. First up is the vaunted meter. Guilds like to use WWS and individuals like Recount. These meters are judge and jury. They have taken over WoW. Ask someone what theyre dps was pre-bc in say Molten Core and nobody knows. But ask what they do in Uld and everyone can quote numbers. To get into a raid or guild you must show and know your dps. The first question when trying to get into a pug for any raid is whats your dps. So you must download these addons so you can see what your doing. Once you see your numbers more work begins. You have to research rotations to see what you can do to improve your numbers. Pretty soon your spending hours on websites like elitistjerks.com and the wow forums. Next you find yourself working in-game to get food stockpiled for raids. You also need flasks and mana / health pots. You can either farm mats and make them or farm gold to buy them. This in itself can become a full-time job. You cant outspend what a raid costs because you will also need to accumulate gold to enchant and gem new loot as you aquire it. So daily quests and farming become a part of prep work for raiding. You see other players in your class doing more dps so more research is needed. Its discovered that they use addons for dot timers, cooldowns on attacks, etc so those become a necessity. Eventually your screen is so full of addon boxes that the potential to induce a seizure is possible. Your spending 2 hrs a day prepping for a raid that night. And for what, so you can do more dps or heal for yet another raid. And when Blizz adds another dungeon you start all over again. during a raid you find yourself watching the meter. No longer do you do an attack because it looks cool or is fun. Its all about blowing out max damage or heals as quickly as possible. The game with all the addons turns into something nothing like a game. I feel more like an accountant plugging in numbers for some math problem. Its very stressful, are people actually enjoying this ? And in the end you (maybe) like myself realize that the raid is utterly pointless. Its no longer about the story, content, or fun but rather simply about loot to do better numbers for some meter. Ive raided for years in other mmo's and it didnt become the job that it does in WoW. And before I get the flames, I did quite well according to those silly meters. I just resent the fact that they exist at all. Nobody told me my dps sucked or what rotation was I doing in star wars galaxies while fighting a krayt. Nobody asked me anything when raiding in lotr (before expansion anyway, I hear things are like wow now over there). I cant begin to understand how anyone enjoys playing with all these addons and meters and formulas and math and macros and rotations
I understand what you are saying. I too hate raiding in WoW, I don't raid anymore unless it is the quick ones like Vaults and OS. I remember doing endgame in FFXI and dedicating loads of time to it and I actually found it fun. I tried doing that when I started playing WoW and it wasn't fun at all. I am a pure PvE player at heart and have always enjoyed that aspect of the game but the way it is done in WoW is horrid. I think I have to blame a lot of it on the rotten community the game has.
As a arcane mage in WoW I never had a problem with DPS (pull almost 4k in 5-mans and it is a shame that I know that...) but it is annoying that people take it so seriously. What you said about watching the meter is pretty spot on haha, I remember not even watching the bosses/visuals/spells in naxx and just watching my meter the whole time while doing a rotation.... not fun World of Addons
Comments
Well, I suppose it comes down to a player mentality, like someone here already suggested.
For some, raiding in a MMORPG is more like a competitive sport. They want to be surrounded by the best players. They take performance very seriously.
For some, raiding in a MMORPG is more like a hobby. They want to be surrounded by acquintances and friends. They play for fun.
I personally fall in the middle and I think some other games handled raiding much better. Raiding in WoW, past classic, has not been as much fun as it was in other games. And no, I am not an amateur raider, I have raided the high-end content prior to nerfs and been involved in server first kills in bosses like Kael'Thas. The introduction of achievements and hardmodes sucked the last bit out of me. I tolerated damage and threat meters. I tolerated many elitist jackasses who think we only raid for their benefit. But the addition of achievements and hardmodes made many factors in the raiding much worse.
Lastly, theorycrafting has existed long before introduction of damage and threat meters in WoW. I kinda agree that WoW is a bit like playing with an excel spreadsheet. It is like that because Blizzard allows so much information about the game to be used with third-party mods. I would argue that it is too much information and that it hampers the immersion. Plus, all encounters must be designed based on the fact that most raiding guilds use these meters. This is the reason why so many encounters have the enrage timer.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
So the don't raid. I constantly hear complaints about having to raid in wow all the time. So don't do it. No one is forcing you to raid or raid to the extent that you hate it.
For the time I played wow I never played with the idea that I had to get to the raiding stage. Of all the WoW players I know, none raid.
If you don't like something in a game then don't do it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So the don't raid. I constantly hear complaints about having to raid in wow all the time. So don't do it. No one is forcing you to raid or raid to the extent that you hate it.
For the time I played wow I never played with the idea that I had to get to the raiding stage. Of all the WoW players I know, none raid.
If you don't like something in a game then don't do it.
I agree i also hated the raiding in wow to repetitive for me so i just quit now i don't have to complain about it (^_^)V
I used to raid abit in LOTRO and WoW but I recently quit because it isnt worth it to me anymore. When it comes down to it for me, whats the point raiding night after night for something thats made up of pixels....LOL. It isnt real, it isnt real life. The moment I started planning my week around my raid schedule I quit. I now look to polished pvp/pve content to challenge me because I can come and go as I please...I feel so FREE!!! LOL
I didnt try any of the raid content in WoW but I'm sure if I did the crowd it draws and the time needed to take part would bore me in no time. It really is sad that most MMORPGs only offer raids at end-game to keep us busy isnt it? :-/ I got bored of my fully geared blood elf pvp mage in WoW fast because the end-game pvp content WoW offers is horrible.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
Well, most MMOs offer repetitive things to do as their end-game simply because it is nearly impossible to pump out quality content at the rate that the most "hardcore" players would need it. However, there are different ways to handle it.
WoW's end-game is pretty much focused on raiding and/or arena. Both are gear grinds, but the latter can also be quite competitive eSports type of thing. Both are also about rewards with very little risks to no risks.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
What your talking happened on a very few servers in EQ. EQ raiding was always fun for me.... We also talked to the other guilds on the server that were raiding the same things we were to work out a fair system so all guilds got a shot at the raids. So do not give me this bullshit Please.
WoW was not built by EQ raiders.... Sure some EQ players are on the developer team for WoW but come on.
Sooner or Later
You are there for your enjoyment, i find what you say absolutely crazy. wow is a game not a way of life, if you wipe it doesnt matter, it wont change the world in anyway. And for your cooking analogy, would you cook something you hated so your friends could enjoy eating it and not you? no you wouldnt so why do it in wow. get a life.
In a social interaction you are not just 'therr for your own enjoyment'. If your actions are going to negatively affect other human being then it is your responsibility to consider whether you should continue with those actions. Just because you think that something does not matter, it does not mean that you have to sabotage it for those for whom it matters. Thing do not have to 'change the world' to matter to people. I find your attitude very selfish.
As far as the cooking analogy, I would most definetly cook something for my friends that I hated. They are my friends so I like to see them enjoy their food. I would still try to cook something that we all really like but I would never cook us my favourite food when I know they hate it.
I see people who try to "learn from the game itself" all the time. 90% of them suck badly. I've never seen any of them truely excel.
It seems to me that wise people in any discipline are humble enough to know that no matter how much they know, there's still something they can learn from others. Would Shakespeare have been such a great author if he had never read a book or seen a play? Would Einstein have invented relativity if he had never read a book on mathematics or physics?
Anyone who is serious about improving their performance, in any discipline, does everything possible to get better. And that includes learning from others.
I never said that it's not okay to learn from others, I just like to learn from others or be helpfull towards others ingame. But then again the whole reason of me playing games is to discover,explore, learn, be entertained, be helpfull towards the community I play with and for me that can all be done ingame.
Just understand that each persons experiance can be very different, you where unlucky to meet about 90% of players you felt didn't know their play to well, my experiance is different. Of course I could see the inpatient type of player that grinds to to cap lvl asap and still knowns nothing, but I tend to ignore those......
People will develop tools to back out those info whether you like it or not. Before WOW let's player see the actual health (only %) of mobs, there is a mob that will calculate that info (abate not perfectly) based on tracking damages and %.
So Blizzard eventually provides that info. Same for quest helper. The next patch is going to incorporate some QH functionality. I think it is BETTER for blizzard to do it then people using 3rd party software because of stability, and other issues.
Optimizing is just part of the fun. If lots of people find it fun, Blizzard should support it. Hack-n-slash + optimizing is a very popular style of play since Diablo.
My qualm with raiding and the endgame of MMOs (and the reason I left the genre) is this: If you were to totally isolate it from the rest of the game, would it be as good or enjoyable as a "normal" non-MMO game? For me the answer has always been no.
WoW is a perfect case in point. Here you have this massive world with thousands of players on each server, yet the end game PvP-wise is nothing more than a lesser version of Team Fortress 2 or Counterstrike. Why didn't they just make a Warcraft fighting game with individual and team options? Now there's something I WOULD like to play instead of sogging through a bunch of useless grinding, equipment requirements, etc.
Raiding is even more of a let down. It's the equivalent of making an MMORPG based on our contemporary world where your character has to become a synchronized swimmer or a member of an orchestra in order to progress. It's pointless, and has no basis in reality. In the real, free world, it is possible to succeed as an individual.
Bottom line: MMOs pretty much suck. They need to rethink the reasons why they have a massive world in the first place.
Where do the tactics come in? All I see is managing hp,mana and dps. If they are only interested in your dps, then raid instances in WoW must be bloody easy lol like the other dungeons Ive seen during my short WoW time.
What I still remember from the time I played WoW (before first expansion), is that most ppl just solo their way to max lvl and barely play in team before that. The mobs are also very easy for that. Easy to pull and barely react on each other. Outside instances there are rarely complex patrol patterns or mobs that act as groups with different roles for different npcs (heal, debuff, dps etc).
So when ppl finally start playing in instances they simply dont know about the basic stuff. They dont keep track of where their teammembers are, or what their hp is during fights, or when to quit dps when their healer gets low on mana. They also rarely see adds coming. All very basic teamplay stuff. But then I came from Guild Wars back then and was used to only play in teams and didnt know any better.
My perception of so called 'pro' teamplay in WoW was that it was very single minded and only about the holy trinity. Tank, dps, heal. Just basic stuff really. No real tactics. But to be honest Ive never raided in WoW, only did lower lvl instances, so I wonder if its any different in those raid instances.
I hate that term...."welfare epics".
I swear I think a butthurt raider who went into pvp and got his ass handed to him made that up.
There is nothing wellfare about it, it takes just as much time as raiding does.
Lmao, raiding in WoW today is NOTHING compared to pre-tbc. The 40 man raids at level 60 were 100 times harder and demanded more attention than ever. Raiding nowadays is laughable.
What your talking happened on a very few servers in EQ. EQ raiding was always fun for me.... We also talked to the other guilds on the server that were raiding the same things we were to work out a fair system so all guilds got a shot at the raids. So do not give me this bullshit Please.
WoW was not built by EQ raiders.... Sure some EQ players are on the developer team for WoW but come on.
Jeffrey "Tigole" Kaplan was a designer for WoW specifically responsible for quest, instance and raid content. The reason he was hired by Blizzard was because he was a huge raider in EQ and a friend of Rob Pardo, who was a lead designer in WoW and a member of the same guild as Tigole.
In other words, you have a lead designer and a designer responsible for quest, raid and instance content being members of an EQ raiding guild.
So let me rephrase that: WoW was designed by EQ raiders.
Quite honestly, the scheduling and lockouts is what killed raiding for me. I think it was best handled in AO when semi automated chat bot commanded all of the raiding. One wasn't restricted by guild, just be online at that time or in a spawning team to hoping to pop a raid target. Sure depending on your playtime and day you might not be able to do certain raids, but I found that factor to add to the enjoyment of participating in those certain raids when your timing is good.AO had a more varied endgame then WOW.
I agree completely.
However it didn't always used to be like that, back in vanilla WoW, and even BC, it was quite fun while still requiring a lot of work and effort.
Suffice to say, it's not WoW that killed raiding, it's the people playing it.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
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Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
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Played and loved: Eve and WoW
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Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
I agree 100% with the OP. Its sad
raiding was more fun in the old days.
/Z
I hate that term...."welfare epics".
I swear I think a butthurt raider who went into pvp and got his ass handed to him made that up.
There is nothing wellfare about it, it takes just as much time as raiding does.
That is a misconception. Sorry. The term was coined because people were getting epics, regardless of how bad they were. Thats the key here. People we're afking en mass so they can farm honor, and buy epics with honor points. Aside from doing the work of puting an oscilating fan with a pencil stick to it, hiting your keyboard to keep you from going afk... it was very much "welfare". That or botting or what ever method they chose to afk alterac valley.
I hate that term...."welfare epics".
I swear I think a butthurt raider who went into pvp and got his ass handed to him made that up.
There is nothing wellfare about it, it takes just as much time as raiding does.
That is a misconception. Sorry. The term was coined because people were getting epics, regardless of how bad they were. Thats the key here. People we're afking en mass so they can farm honor, and buy epics with honor points. Aside from doing the work of puting an oscilating fan with a pencil stick to it, hiting your keyboard to keep you from going afk... it was very much "welfare". That or botting or what ever method they chose to afk alterac valley.
sounds like johnspartan to me...
i think thats how he got his "Elitist Douchebag" achievement
Welfare Epics - a term coined to Jeff Kaplan (Tigole), Blizzard developer. While he might have ment it as a joke, do not blame others using it. If a Blizzard developer said it, it must be the truth. Plus I believe it was a Freudian slip.
At BlizzCon, Lead Designer Jeff Kaplan (Tigole) said a lot of interesting things. He called Arena gear "Welfare Epics" -- that raiders earn their gear.
50 seconds into the raiding panel at Blizzcon you can hear the term used in a video:
"So, we're not here to talk about solo player content today. Or PVP with your welfare Arena epics or anything like that. This round is for people actually go out and earn their epics by killing hard bosses in dungeons."
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Sorry for the derail, but when I read the title I thought it said "Reading in WoW ruined the game for me". Make of that what you will. byeeeee
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Seems SW:TOR hears that cry...
I hate that term...."welfare epics".
I swear I think a butthurt raider who went into pvp and got his ass handed to him made that up.
There is nothing wellfare about it, it takes just as much time as raiding does.
Indeed. It were the old hardcore raiders that also were against resilience. 3 years ago they could steam roll everyone with their precious Raid gear in the BG's.
Now it's the other way around and so they invented the term "welfare" and hate Arenas too btw. Because doing the ultimate Raid content these days is no longer a guarantee you can score in PvP (BG's and Arena).
Only the weapons were taken out of the BG's, but the top second best are still avaliable in Arena.
Raiders that don't like PvP (and aren't always very good at) invented the term "welfare".
I think hell just froze over....me and zorn agree on something.
I hate arenas though. I dunno...maybe if I got a good team. Its that first day where I just feel like the worst pvp'er ever.
I wish the pvp was more like DAOCs. Oh and did you hear, resilience will mean even more than it does now in 3.2. Will that really help the softer classes though...mages/rogues?
Ok Im getting off topic. Resume Raid Bashing :P
Jeff Tigole is an asshole. Earn...lol.
I like raiding more than I used to, but get this.... We could be on a boss and I could die in the first 5 secs, do a total of 100 dmg and contribute nothing else to the raid but that doesnt affect what drops, or if I get to roll on it.
So I did nothing for that boss and got a epic piece of gear. Sounds pretty welfare.
As far as not blaming someone for using it because someone made up the term, Im sure someone else made up the N word but your not going to find me using it. And if I used it in company that might get offended, I wouldnt be surprised that they got angry. And in defending myself you wouldnt hear me say "DONT HATE, I DIDNT MAKE THE WORD UP!"
I understand what you are saying. I too hate raiding in WoW, I don't raid anymore unless it is the quick ones like Vaults and OS. I remember doing endgame in FFXI and dedicating loads of time to it and I actually found it fun. I tried doing that when I started playing WoW and it wasn't fun at all. I am a pure PvE player at heart and have always enjoyed that aspect of the game but the way it is done in WoW is horrid. I think I have to blame a lot of it on the rotten community the game has.
As a arcane mage in WoW I never had a problem with DPS (pull almost 4k in 5-mans and it is a shame that I know that...) but it is annoying that people take it so seriously. What you said about watching the meter is pretty spot on haha, I remember not even watching the bosses/visuals/spells in naxx and just watching my meter the whole time while doing a rotation.... not fun World of Addons