Friend From Norway Shares Video of the Horrors of Socialism (Wait Until You See The Prisions - Quite

declaredemer

A friend of mine from Trondheim, Norway and I were having a discussion about --you probably guessed it-- health care. 

 

 

Long story short, he provided me a link to this video involving Michael Moore that I had not seen before; it was NOT, I am told, included in SICKO, which tells ME a lot.

 

 

Here is the link of the effects of socialism not included in SICKO:  www.youtube.com/watch

Pyrich

Before or after the bankruptcy?

declaredemer

Originally posted by Pyrich


Before or after the bankruptcy?

 

Are you referring to the record number of bankruptcies and foreclosures -business and household-- in the United States?  Interesting you mentioned bankruptcy when just the other day I mentioned how DIP (debtor-in-possession) financing has dried up and leading to more bankruptcies.  In fact, recent changes in the bankruptcy --some say it is nearly as complex as the tax code-- have empowered creditors at the expense (of course) of the debtor. 

 

 

I do not know if that is what you are referring, as I did recently mention bankruptcy on this forum.  In fact, we are should anticipate increased business bankruptcies.  Similar to banks refusing to do the workout with households --pile up a bunch of bad loans, show your balance sheet is awful, and receive rescue money-- they are refusing workouts with businesses.

 

You have some small businesses and mid-sized businesses with the same family for 180 years --such as publishing-- hit hard by this recession/depression and cannot get financing from the bank.  The banks refuse to do any sort-of workout, and they go bankrupt.  And due to changes in the laws, boards are losing control; banks/creditors are appointing "restructuring officers" that report to the board and to the creditors.  This is in addition to the "analysts" and their "valuations," whose interests they serve are really the banks/creditors.

 

Interesting you mention bankruptcy.  NOT sure if you are referring to that, though.  I think you are. . . .

sniperg

Seeing this video, fills me with both jealousy and the desire to applaud them.

olddaddy

Originally posted by declaredemer  
You have some small businesses and mid-sized businesses with the same family for 180 years --such as publishing-- hit hard by this recession/depression and cannot get financing from the bank.  The banks refuse to do any sort-of workout, and they go bankrupt.  And due to changes in the laws, boards are losing control; banks/creditors are appointing "restructuring officers" that report to the board and to the creditors.  This is in addition to the "analysts" and their "valuations," whose interests they serve are really the banks/creditors.

 

Don't feel too bad for mom and pop businesses, the smart ones are one step ahead of the banks.......

Here in Michigan we are seeing a wave of indictments as poor mom and pop, in danger of losing their business, have formed an offshore captive insurance company and taken millions from their line of credit to purchase insurance. They also buy an IBC (International Business Corporation) usually in another offshore tax haven. The offshore captive insurance company takes the premiums collected from mom and pop, and "buys" "insurance" from the IBC, transfering 98% of the premium into another tax haven personal bank account in mom and pops name.

The bank just sees the insurance expense on the income statement for several million dollars over the course of a couple years (one payment in December, 2008; the next payment in January, 2009). Money is gone overseas to buy an insurance policy, non-refundable.

Mom and pop have a sweet, cozy nest egg after the bankruptcy.

Except they didn't count on one thing, the political pressure on tax haven countries to turn evidence on them.

It's amazing what the US government can do once a tax haven country decides that bank secrecy is an expensive luxury.

In all fairness, the government warned people last year with the UBS investigation. Now come the indictments.

My business is very good right now.

jakojako

Norway is probably my favorite country for other reasons than shown in the video, but their taxes are just fucking off the wall insane

frodus

Originally posted by olddaddy

Originally posted by declaredemer  
You have some small businesses and mid-sized businesses with the same family for 180 years --such as publishing-- hit hard by this recession/depression and cannot get financing from the bank.  The banks refuse to do any sort-of workout, and they go bankrupt.  And due to changes in the laws, boards are losing control; banks/creditors are appointing "restructuring officers" that report to the board and to the creditors.  This is in addition to the "analysts" and their "valuations," whose interests they serve are really the banks/creditors.

 

Don't feel too bad for mom and pop businesses, the smart ones are one step ahead of the banks.......

Here in Michigan we are seeing a wave of indictments as poor mom and pop, in danger of losing their business, have formed an offshore captive insurance company and taken millions from their line of credit to purchase insurance. They also buy an IBC (International Business Corporation) usually in another offshore tax haven. The offshore captive insurance company takes the premiums collected from mom and pop, and "buys" "insurance" from the IBC, transfering 98% of the premium into another tax haven personal bank account in mom and pops name.

The bank just sees the insurance expense on the income statement for several million dollars over the course of a couple years (one payment in December, 2008; the next payment in January, 2009). Money is gone overseas to buy an insurance policy, non-refundable.

Mom and pop have a sweet, cozy nest egg after the bankruptcy.

Except they didn't count on one thing, the political pressure on tax haven countries to turn evidence on them.

It's amazing what the US government can do once a tax haven country decides that bank secrecy is an expensive luxury.

In all fairness, the government warned people last year with the UBS investigation. Now come the indictments.

My business is very good right now.

UBS releases 200 something names...the hearing is set for Aug 3 or 4th.the swiss will pass a law that will allow the threw state jurisdiction not to release the rest of the names.If they do release the names it could have a ripple effect of those pulling out so much money that some swiss banks to go under.

 

I'm vary familiar with this....The local back lash in the swiss government has been over whelming.

Their is a estimated 54000 names in just one UBS account,the swiss are not known for giving up their prizes lightly.They tried this during the war with the Germans...

The Swiss government has stepped up to say that turning over the names will violate laws protecting bank secrecy. Last week, it threatened to prohibit UBS from turning over its account data, saying it's prepared to seize the information to ensure the information remains secret.

It's unclear what might appease the two sides, but the Justice Department remained steadfast in its demand for names, saying any settlement would require UBS "to provide the Internal Revenue Service information on a significant number of individuals with UBS accounts."

 

Bigdavo

Originally posted by jakojako


Norway is probably my favorite country for other reasons than shown in the video, but their taxes are just fucking off the wall insane

 

Yes, but the video also mentioned that their people are the most paid per capita in the world. Anyway, amazingly advanced country.

kazmo

Norway is a great place. Their system works extremely well for their country and I think it sets a good example for the rest of us. 



However, this system would not work in America. That version of Socialism wouldn't work in America ever, doesn't matter the argument. The US is far too large, far too diverse and extremely bitter overall. Politics in the US are a joke, our "citizens" vehemently support their "side" and literally never understand what exactly it is they're advocating. If a Norwegian-style socialist government was instituted in America, it would be corrupt by sunset. None of this needs explaining.. it's just a OP derail anyway.



Yeah, but Norway is great. I've never been there myself but I have friends that visit often and know a few people with dual-citizenship.

Sabiancym

 The only reason systems like they have in Norway or France won't work in the U.S. is because of the people who oppose it.  They will do anything possible to kill it and go back to the old ways, whether the new system is working or not.

 

P.S. if Palin ever wins a major election, I'm moving to Norway.

Narug

So clear cut or perhaps not?

First the rate between the USD$ and NOK:

(How many Norweigan Krones you'll need in equaling that American dollar and ask.com will turn this up too)

American Dollar

click on values to see graphs 1 USD in USD



Norwegian Kroner 6.06866 0.164781

Norway

Government: Parliamentary democracy under constitutional monarchy

Ethnic groups 89.4% Norwegian and Sami 10.6% other (2009)

Area

- Total 385,252 km2 (61st2)

148,746 sq mi

- Water (%) 7.0

Population

- 2009 estimate 4,830,086 (as of 2 August 2009)[2] (115th)

- Density 12.3/km2 (211th)

31/sq mi

GDP (PPP) 2008 estimate

- Total $256.523 billion[3]

- Per capita $53,796[3]

GDP (nominal) 2008 estimate

- Total $456.226 billion[3]

- Per capita $70,643[

Currency Norwegian krone (NOK)

Economy

"Norwegians enjoy the second highest GDP per-capita (after Luxembourg) and third highest GDP (PPP) per-capita in the world. Norway maintained first place in the world in the UNDP Human Development Index (HDI) for six consecutive years (2001–2006).[14] However, in 2007 Iceland very narrowly beat Norway as the #1 place to live according to the Human Development Index."

"The Norwegian economy is an example of a mixed economy, featuring a combination of free market activity and large state ownership in certain key sectors. The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (StatoilHydro), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminum production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DnB NOR) and telecommunication provider (Telenor). The government controls 31.6% of publicly-listed companies. When non-listed companies are included the state has even higher share in ownership (mainly from direct oil license ownership)."

Demography

"There are almost 4.7 million Norwegian Americans according to the 2006 U.S. census,[45] and most live in the Upper Midwest. The number of Americans of Norwegian descent living in the U.S. today is roughly equal to the current population of Norway."

United States

Government Federal constitutional republic

Area

- Total 9,826,630 km2 [1](3rd/4th3)

3,794,066 sq mi

- Water (%) 6.76

Population

- 2009 estimate 307,065,000[2] (3rd4)

- 2000 census 281,421,906[3]

- Density 31/km2 (180th)

80/sq mi

GDP (PPP) 2008 estimate

- Total $14.264 trillion[4] (1st)

- Per capita $46,859[4] (6th)

GDP (nominal) 2008 estimate

- Total $14.264 trillion[4] (1st)

- Per capita $46,859[4] (17th)

Currency United States dollar ($) (USD)

"The country accounts for approximately 50% of global military spending and is a leading economic, political, and cultural force in the world."

Economy

"The United States has a capitalist mixed economy, which is fueled by abundant natural resources, a well-developed infrastructure, and high productivity.[62] According to the International Monetary Fund, the U.S. GDP of $14.3 trillion constitutes 23% of the gross world product at market exchange rates and almost 21% of the gross world product at purchasing power parity (PPP)."

"The United States remains an industrial power, with chemical products the leading manufacturing field.[71] The United States is the third largest producer of oil in the world, as well as its largest importer.[72] It is the world's number one producer of electrical and nuclear energy, as well as liquid natural gas, sulfur, phosphates, and salt. While agriculture accounts for just under 1% of GDP,[69] the United States is the world's top producer of corn[73] and soybeans.[74] The New York Stock Exchange is the world's largest by dollar volume."

Health

"U.S. cancer survival rates are the highest in the world."

"The U.S. health care system far outspends any other nation's, measured in both per capita spending and percentage of GDP.[161] The World Health Organization ranked the U.S. health care system in 2000 as first in responsiveness"

"The United States is a leader in medical innovation. In 2004, the nonindustrial sector spent three times as much as Europe per capita on biomedical research."

Health care in the United States

"However, the revenues generated from these high healthcare costs have encouraged substantial investment: the United States is the leader in biotechnology, spending three times more per-capita in research and development than its nearest competitor, Europe.[7][8] [9] In addition, the U.S. produces more new pharmaceuticals, medical devices, and affiliated biotechnology than any other country, or the Western European nations combined."

"However, the U.S. also has higher survival rates than most other countries for certain conditions, such as some less common cancers."

Overall system effectiveness

"The WHO study has been criticized by the free market advocate David Gratzer because "fairness in financial contribution" was used as an assessment factor, marking down countries with high per-capita private or fee-paying health treatment."

"On the other hand, the National Health Interview Survey, released annually by the Centers for Disease Control's National Center for Health Statistics reported that approximately 66% of survey respondents said they were in "excellent" or "very good" health in 2006."

"Life expectancy can be affected by factors other than health care. For example, the United States was listed as 37th for life expectancy and 41st in low birth weight. However, if fatal injuries (from suicide, homicide, and other non-health care related injuries) are excluded, then the United States ranks first in the adjusted "natural" life expectancy."

I can remember the discount of Sarah Palin managing a state of smaller population and now Michael Moore is supposed to get a pass with that video. Double standards can reign I guess.

(The Demography piece on Norway at wikipedia is priceless.

//\//\oo

America's new tax structure will be making the disparity at higher incomes not so great as it once was. Even at ridiculous taxation it's a much healthier work environment; more vacation, less stress and less crime have a very high monetary value in the US.

 

 

declaredemer

Originally posted by Bigdavo

Originally posted by jakojako


Norway is probably my favorite country for other reasons than shown in the video, but their taxes are just fucking off the wall insane

 

Yes, but the video also mentioned that their people are the most paid per capita in the world. Anyway, amazingly advanced country.

 

That is exactly right.  My friend makes a very high income (age 24) and lives in the city center. 

 

 

EDIT:  Prices are more expensive, but offset of course by the costs associated with "important" things such as transportation, infrastructure, education, health care, etc.

 

Cleffy

I think people forget the advantage of a state structure.  Especially in since 1970.  States are meant to have more power and be able to setup a structure like Norway without getting any other state mixed up in its affairs aside from trade.  However, the US federal budget and tax system now prevent that.  We pay 10 times more to the fed and just as much to social security for far less impact.  The only thing most Americans notice from the fed's involvement are the basics instituted by the constitution, defense force and mail.  I think if we want an honest attempt at a similiar system, we should reduce the feds spending to below $100 billion and cut to extremes.  Then give the states more power of taxation to pay for social programs.

Dracus

Originally posted by Cleffy


I think people forget the advantage of a state structure.  
...

Nice set of points there.

HYPERI0N

Originally posted by Dracus

Originally posted by Cleffy


I think people forget the advantage of a state structure.  
...

Nice set of points there.

 

Agreed.

Astropuyo

Originally posted by declaredemer


A friend of mine from Trondheim, Norway and I were having a discussion about --you probably guessed it-- health care. 
 
 
Long story short, he provided me a link to this video involving Michael Moore that I had not seen before; it was NOT, I am told, included in SICKO, which tells ME a lot.
 
 
Here is the link of the effects of socialism not included in SICKO:  www.youtube.com/watch

 

We Americans would reject this way of life so fast.

It's just not American style. We have to treat eachother like absolute crap right down to the lowest common denominator otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

If Americans are happy, there is something COMPLETELY wrong. Just look at how we treat those cheerful people at work. They are to be avoided.

Imagine if we were all happy. Christ we'd have civil war in a week tops.

streea

Exactly. If Americans can't be nasty to each other, what's the point of being American? People distantly related to us died so that we could have the right to let corruption win out over equality. Why would we want it any different?

(PS: I would gladly live with less "stuff" if it meant I could live like they can)

baff

Originally posted by //\//\oo


America's new tax structure will be making the disparity at higher incomes not so great as it once was. Even at ridiculous taxation it's a much healthier work environment; more vacation, less stress and less crime have a very high monetary value in the US.
 
 

 

It's a bit of a silly comparison though isn't, Norway and the U.S.

A tiny oil rich country with a population the same size as a single U.S. City.

 

You can't have a system like Norway's in the U.S. any more than you can have a system like Dubai's. Your exportable natural resources are not far larger than your populations requirements.

 

A better comparison would be Norway and Housten or Norway and The Bay Area..

 

Or the U.S. and the EU.  There are places in the U.S. every bit as wealthy and well managed as Norway.

Also Norway has a massive tax rate. Beer is £7 a pint.

Josher

Norway can't be compared with the US.  It can only be compared to a large city here.  What works on a small scale does NOT work on a large scale.  Also, what would happen if a country decided to invade them and take over?  What could they do?  Could they actually defend themselves for more than a day?  Nope!   All gone in an instant.   What would happen if millions of people were entering their borders yearly to suck the life blood out of the country?  What would happen if millions of weapons were being smuggled in yearly?   Those unarmed cops would be dogmeat.   Its a stupid comparison.  Might as well compare the quality of a mom and pop boutique flower store with Wallmart's flower section.   A boutique shop doesn't have to worry or be conerned with everything Walmart has to be concerned with. 

 

Better to compare us to the former Soviet Union since the scale is closer.  How did that work out for them?

 

 

Aetius73

Our culture simply couldn't handle that system. We are too selfish.

In addition Prision is suppose to hurt not be a freaking country club.

Trizic

Originally posted by Aetius73


Our culture simply couldn't handle that system. We are too selfish.
In addition Prision is suppose to hurt not be a freaking country club.

This is why you are supposed to improve yourselves and make the populace less selfish, the best way for this to be done is education.

Also the comment about prison is primitive and ineffective. People are way to much about punishment and revenge and this only makes their problem worse, these Scandinavians actually want to solve the problem of crime though instead of satisfying selfish bloodlusts.

 

abbaba

Must be nice to have such great natural resources and a small population, and not have to support a military of any consequence to boot.

 

Maybe the Norwegians will take the spirit of socialism and help even out the disparity between their poor brothers in Africa, Asia, and Central America?

Aetius73

Originally posted by Trizic

Originally posted by Aetius73


Our culture simply couldn't handle that system. We are too selfish.
In addition Prision is suppose to hurt not be a freaking country club.

This is why you are supposed to improve yourselves and make the populace less selfish, the best way for this to be done is education.

Also the comment about prison is primitive and ineffective. People are way to much about punishment and revenge and this only makes their problem worse, these Scandinavians actually want to solve the problem of crime though instead of satisfying selfish bloodlusts.

 

There is no way to solve crime save reprogram the human genome. Criminals shouldn't be enjoying a country club lifestyle on the dime of hard working citizens. Accusations of being less Primitive and selfish is just an excuse for it to make a society that does it feel better about themselves. 

Brainwashing people into the correct mode of thought will take generations. The values that the United States was founded on and that have become a fundamental part of our cultural identity. You know the one where you come here to work hard and be rewarded with a better life. I don't recall reading about the one where you come here and get free handouts from the socialist government as being a part of our core cultural identity. The brainwashing has begun though (through the church of liberalism our public schools) so it should take but another generation or two.