Let's not forget SOE Everquest. They ruined that game gradually starting with Shadows of Luclin. The lost me during PoP, the direction and feel of the game changed too much.
Sort of ironic that AoC gets taken to the woodshed over false advertising one item on their box, when what is generally considedered the original MMO, Ultima Online, not only had false advertising, but my friend sued them over it and won free play time for the entire player base. How short our memories are in today's information age.
It would be ironic, and our memories would be short if the word "Recent" wasn't in the headline
Five bucks says the lead in pict with the guys hand over the woman’s mouth will be pulled within two hours.
Honestly the biggest blunder of all is game developers inviting fly by night journalist that write for second rate fan sites to press conferences. They are more than likely going to purposely misquote you to gain street cred and a reputation for edginess. I understand that developers want to connect with the community…but the community by and large idea of fun is burning a developer who isn’t Blizzard to the ground.
The second biggest blunder is hyping or even mentioning you are developing a game too soon. A smart developer would not even announce a game until the game is feature complete and in closed testing by a group of professional quality specialist, that specialize in online games.
Instead of looking at what not yet released mmo's may have done poorly in some press release, your time would have been better spent taking an indepth look at why those mmo's that have been released lately, have not held up to all the hype. Now, you glimpsed into this with your brieft mention of AoC, and that was well done. That being said, you could have done much more. Furthermore, games like warhammer would, and should, make such a list as a lesson to future developers on how easy it is to go wrong during implimentation, regardless of how good an idea you start out with, and what this means in terms of how it will affect subscribers.
The TOA expansion in DAOC singlehandedly destroyed the game for me. I managed to hang on for while as its influence wasn't initially felt on the PVP server Mordred, but eventually it permiated even that world and I moved on after a 2.5 yr ride.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
11/15/05 A day we will never forget. It was as if thousands of subscribers cried out in angony and then where silience ignored by the great Sony and Lucas Arts corporate machine.
11/15/05 A day we will never forget. It was as if thousands of subscribers cried out in angony and then where silience ignored by the great Sony and Lucas Arts corporate machine.
They were not silenced they just won't shut the fuck up...mores the pity.
Hmm.. since I'm playing the game I'd say WAR dev team's decisions:
1) to go for 2 factions instead of 3 which made the game's faction play inherently unstable and constantly tending towards imbalance on a fundamental level.
2) the linear "follow the road" philosophy in zone design and general forced dividing of the game maps with all those impassable ranges, cliffs, linear RvR lakes etc etc... This is both killing immersion and making the game experience much less interactive (and exploratory) than it could have been. This is especially glaring in T4 which would work much much better if it were just one huge zone with RvR and PvE mixed together. T4 RvR grows old fast because there is only one strategy - up towards the enemy fort. If it were an open battlefield you'd have new strategies and battledield situations every day - it would never grow boring just like DAoC's frontiers or EVE's open zero space never grows stale.
3) level-based progression which divided the population into all those useless tiers and made it seem much lower than it was - and PvP needs a certain minimum population to work, unlike PvE which you can even do alone. As I recall they originally considered going the GW model with classes and lateral progression in form of new skills but chickened out and opted for the old tired EQ model.
That's 3 massive core design failures for what is primarily a PvP game.
I think Warhammer's biggest blunder for me was there was no reason to chat. I could group and quest or PvP or join Warbands all day, and never actually chat with anyone. So great grouping tools but not great for community building.
Soz but I'll have to disagree here... The chat UI was horrible at launch (lol there wasn't even a regional chat channel). Nowadays you have chatter all the time with people coordinating open RvR warbands, lfging for PQs etc. Groups talk all the time especially within ORvR because the situation is constantly shifting and you need to know where everybody is going and what's happening in the larger world. The only part of the game where there is relative silence is in scenarios - they are pretty quiet since everybody knows what's their job and the action is too fast to have the time to hammer at the keyboard.
In fact Aion beta struck me as way more silent and asocial than WAR's ever was. Complete silence. You ask people to group they ignore you. When you do get into a group they don't want to talk because they're too busy with their "experience". It's pretty much the same with all new games imo. I'm sure Aion's social aspect will pick up when they enable the regional chat and the population matures a bit. And oh yes, Abyss is going to be pretty chatty I'm sure - just like WAR's RvR lakes are.
I agree with Jack Emmert that microtransactions are a load of crap. The fact that they've announced them for Star Trek Online and Champions Online has really dulled my enthusiasm for both games. It really has.
All I know is when I saw this article before I read another word I went straight to #1 and it better be...Ahhh there she blows in all her glory! Yep, ok now I can read the whole thing knowing this wont going to end up LIES. I understand people want those of us to forget about the NGE debacle but in the earnest measurement of Khan... "No...no, you can't get away...from hell's heart, I stab at thee...for hate's sake, I spit my last breath...at thee..."
The debate doesn't interest me too much. I'm just genuinely concerned this guy thinks Khan is who he's quoting. Which kind of completely ruins the quote if he believes that.
All I know is when I saw this article before I read another word I went straight to #1 and it better be...Ahhh there she blows in all her glory! Yep, ok now I can read the whole thing knowing this wont going to end up LIES. I understand people want those of us to forget about the NGE debacle but in the earnest measurement of Khan... "No...no, you can't get away...from hell's heart, I stab at thee...for hate's sake, I spit my last breath...at thee..."
The debate doesn't interest me too much. I'm just genuinely concerned this guy thinks Khan is who he's quoting. Which kind of completely ruins the quote if he believes that.
(1) re-invent the wheel... it seems like every time a new game comes out there allways missing key critical details that seem like no brainers examples are workable and smooth movement system,, resizeable windows, effective auction house sorting, effective communication, things like costume clothing or clothing toggles they seem to spend more time on the color of a stripe on a UI than on much more important aspects.
(2) FAILURE TO EVOLVE this one is the biggest, far too many games are strikingly close to each other (too close) there is a strong feeling of "been there done that", I know its tough for a game to be radicly different there is alot at stake what I would sugest is creating a ongoing stable game then having a special zone specificly for trying out new things and technologies a lab as it were this would greatly limit the overall impact while seeing what works and what doesnt.
lately it seems like the AI is the same AI ive fought in EQ 10 years ago I call em rats, the only difference between a level 1 rat and a level 100 rat is hitpoints and damage also very similar, single solution quests, non-interactable terrain,, no climate or weather, armor and weapon based economies,, fatily dead endgame. simplistic 1 dimentional PVP (gang fight) graphics over content quality and artificial feeling theme parks and no organic immersive worlds
(3) failure to listen to the flow of your beta testers ever hear of a game called SEED? ya beta testers were all over that one, we told them there was a "hole" in the wing but they launched anyway,, i think they lasted 2 months? conan had a similar urging to no avail and i think vanguard can be counted among them and there are other games coming out soon that dont listen to their testers sure your allways gonna have people at both extreems of the spectrum but then a large porton of your testers are telling theres a problem it might be smart to listen and try to do something before the disater.
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
(3) failure to listen to the flow of your beta testers ever hear of a game called SEED? ya beta testers were all over that one, we told them there was a "hole" in the wing but they launched anyway,, i think they lasted 2 months? conan had a similar urging to no avail and i think vanguard can be counted among them and there are other games coming out soon that dont listen to their testers sure your allways gonna have people at both extreems of the spectrum but then a large porton of your testers are telling theres a problem it might be smart to listen and try to do something before the disater.
I was in the beta for SEED as well. As launch day quickly approached, I couldn't believe they were actually going for it. The idea for the game was incredible, and I hope someone else tries something like it one day. The "beta" game literally played like a pre-alpha concept build. It was a total disaster and it felt more like 90% of the game wasn't even written yet.
I remember going into the official IRC channel to voice my opinion, and having a couple of the devs tell me what an idiot I was and that I had no idea what I was talking about. I told them the game would completely tank, and would do so immediately upon launch. Making this prediction required no special psychic powers on my part. I was kick banned from the channel, and had my beta account suspended. Pretty much what I expected to happen, but I wanted to say my piece after having followed the game on the forums for a very long time.
Imagine my surprise when they bit the big one right after launch... What a waste of a cool idea. Yes, they ran out of money, but that's no excuse to charge people for a game that wasn't even remotely complete.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
there may never be another NGE but developers have tried NGE Lite
You don't even have to look all that far. Under the Reign of Jack City of heroes has a series of nerfs that
Halves the effectivness of enhancments (gear)
reduced tank defenses AND agro control to a fraction of what it was while still letting blasters gean 3 times the agro cap of the tankers
Halved control powers AND doubled control power recharge (and removed multiple pets from controlers!)
oh...yeah...
and encourages blasters (whoses powers are Ranged dammage/melle dammages no armor or heals in their normal pools) to fight at low heath and refusing healing to maximize their dammage.
Good article but Mythic deserves one of the top 5 spots. I mean they've tried so hard to earn a spot on that list.
Trials of Atlantis almost destroyed the game by losing half their playerbase.
The continued efforts of Mark Jacobs to state "We've learned a lot from our mistakes with Daoc!" and then to Warhammer which might as well have been AoC with all the bugs and missing content and a design that was absolutely the opposite of what Mythic adverstised.
11/15/05 A day we will never forget. It was as if thousands of subscribers cried out in angony and then where silience ignored by the great Sony and Lucas Arts corporate machine.
They were not silenced they just won't shut the fuck up...mores the pity.
I agree with Jack Emmert that microtransactions are a load of crap. The fact that they've announced them for Star Trek Online and Champions Online has really dulled my enthusiasm for both games. It really has.
I think MT can be done properly -- I don't think Cryptic is on the rigth track to doing it with what I've read so far on CO. I haven't seen anything yet on STO yet. Can someone post a link for that?
edit: sadly, I probably *would* shell out $10 to "unlock" the TOS red shirts for my characters! (it would be so wrong...)
Great article. I have to say the entry on Jack Emmert's statement regarding micro-transactions seems more of a case of foot in mouth than an actual 'blunder' such as printing false advertising on a package.
Quoted from the article - "..."Micro-transactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense," Emmert said. According to a rather detailed rundown of the event presented by the folks at Massively, Emmert explained how he liked to pay a single fee and not worry about it. He even pointed out that Pardo’s World of Warcraft, the most successful game in this genre, didn’t have them..." From this quote, I am getting the impression that Jack is merely expressing his own personal distaste for the particular strategy of utilizing micro-transactions either in addition to, or in place of utilizing purely subscription based models.
I think the fact that he has, shall we say, obviously seen the light - despite his personal feelings -and repented of his statement, shows me that he may have learned something from handing over the tightly held reins of the Cities of franchise to NC Soft/Paragon Studios. Regardless of what a developer might feel, sometimes trying to make a world tightly molded in their own personal vision can prove alienating to the player base. Since NC Soft took over, they have given us many things that we only dreamed about before. Players begged for years for new costume options, emotes to enhance the 'change' of costumes, fun new emotes, and many other 'fun' features - and now they are available for sale. I personally have purchased several (Wedding, Mac Items Pack (Valkyrie), Magic, Good vs Evil), and most on more than one account.
I think the direction of giving the players what they want (within reason) that the Cities have taken since the change in owndership has been nothing but positive and giving the players things that DO NOT affect game play and are just for 'fun' cannot hurt those who want to spend the extra entertainment funds this way. Any game can benefit from micro-transactions as long as they are handled properly and do not allow those with money to spare to buy superiority at the expense of those who cannot afford to constantly buy per-transaction upgrades.
Comments
Let's not forget SOE Everquest. They ruined that game gradually starting with Shadows of Luclin. The lost me during PoP, the direction and feel of the game changed too much.
It would be ironic, and our memories would be short if the word "Recent" wasn't in the headline
Five bucks says the lead in pict with the guys hand over the woman’s mouth will be pulled within two hours.
Honestly the biggest blunder of all is game developers inviting fly by night journalist that write for second rate fan sites to press conferences. They are more than likely going to purposely misquote you to gain street cred and a reputation for edginess. I understand that developers want to connect with the community…but the community by and large idea of fun is burning a developer who isn’t Blizzard to the ground.
The second biggest blunder is hyping or even mentioning you are developing a game too soon. A smart developer would not even announce a game until the game is feature complete and in closed testing by a group of professional quality specialist, that specialize in online games.
Instead of looking at what not yet released mmo's may have done poorly in some press release, your time would have been better spent taking an indepth look at why those mmo's that have been released lately, have not held up to all the hype. Now, you glimpsed into this with your brieft mention of AoC, and that was well done. That being said, you could have done much more. Furthermore, games like warhammer would, and should, make such a list as a lesson to future developers on how easy it is to go wrong during implimentation, regardless of how good an idea you start out with, and what this means in terms of how it will affect subscribers.
All I know is when I saw this article before I read another word I went straight to #1 and it better be...Ahhh there she blows in all her glory!
Yep, ok now I can read the whole thing knowing this wont going to end up LIES.
I understand people want those of us to forget about the NGE debacle but in the earnest measurement of Khan...
"No...no, you can't get away...from hell's heart, I stab at thee...for hate's sake, I spit my last breath...at thee..."
The TOA expansion in DAOC singlehandedly destroyed the game for me. I managed to hang on for while as its influence wasn't initially felt on the PVP server Mordred, but eventually it permiated even that world and I moved on after a 2.5 yr ride.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
11/15/05 A day we will never forget. It was as if thousands of subscribers cried out in angony and then where silience ignored by the great Sony and Lucas Arts corporate machine.
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They were not silenced they just won't shut the fuck up...mores the pity.
Hmm.. since I'm playing the game I'd say WAR dev team's decisions:
1) to go for 2 factions instead of 3 which made the game's faction play inherently unstable and constantly tending towards imbalance on a fundamental level.
2) the linear "follow the road" philosophy in zone design and general forced dividing of the game maps with all those impassable ranges, cliffs, linear RvR lakes etc etc... This is both killing immersion and making the game experience much less interactive (and exploratory) than it could have been. This is especially glaring in T4 which would work much much better if it were just one huge zone with RvR and PvE mixed together. T4 RvR grows old fast because there is only one strategy - up towards the enemy fort. If it were an open battlefield you'd have new strategies and battledield situations every day - it would never grow boring just like DAoC's frontiers or EVE's open zero space never grows stale.
3) level-based progression which divided the population into all those useless tiers and made it seem much lower than it was - and PvP needs a certain minimum population to work, unlike PvE which you can even do alone. As I recall they originally considered going the GW model with classes and lateral progression in form of new skills but chickened out and opted for the old tired EQ model.
That's 3 massive core design failures for what is primarily a PvP game.
Even though Recent is in the headline im surprise no one mentioned Pirates of the Burning Sea. Or Hellgate Blunder?
Soz but I'll have to disagree here... The chat UI was horrible at launch (lol there wasn't even a regional chat channel). Nowadays you have chatter all the time with people coordinating open RvR warbands, lfging for PQs etc. Groups talk all the time especially within ORvR because the situation is constantly shifting and you need to know where everybody is going and what's happening in the larger world. The only part of the game where there is relative silence is in scenarios - they are pretty quiet since everybody knows what's their job and the action is too fast to have the time to hammer at the keyboard.
In fact Aion beta struck me as way more silent and asocial than WAR's ever was. Complete silence. You ask people to group they ignore you. When you do get into a group they don't want to talk because they're too busy with their "experience". It's pretty much the same with all new games imo. I'm sure Aion's social aspect will pick up when they enable the regional chat and the population matures a bit. And oh yes, Abyss is going to be pretty chatty I'm sure - just like WAR's RvR lakes are.
I agree with Jack Emmert that microtransactions are a load of crap. The fact that they've announced them for Star Trek Online and Champions Online has really dulled my enthusiasm for both games. It really has.
The debate doesn't interest me too much. I'm just genuinely concerned this guy thinks Khan is who he's quoting. Which kind of completely ruins the quote if he believes that.
The debate doesn't interest me too much. I'm just genuinely concerned this guy thinks Khan is who he's quoting. Which kind of completely ruins the quote if he believes that.
lol
blunders game developers do all the time.
(1) re-invent the wheel... it seems like every time a new game comes out there allways missing key critical details that seem like no brainers examples are workable and smooth movement system,, resizeable windows, effective auction house sorting, effective communication, things like costume clothing or clothing toggles they seem to spend more time on the color of a stripe on a UI than on much more important aspects.
(2) FAILURE TO EVOLVE this one is the biggest, far too many games are strikingly close to each other (too close) there is a strong feeling of "been there done that", I know its tough for a game to be radicly different there is alot at stake what I would sugest is creating a ongoing stable game then having a special zone specificly for trying out new things and technologies a lab as it were this would greatly limit the overall impact while seeing what works and what doesnt.
lately it seems like the AI is the same AI ive fought in EQ 10 years ago I call em rats, the only difference between a level 1 rat and a level 100 rat is hitpoints and damage also very similar, single solution quests, non-interactable terrain,, no climate or weather, armor and weapon based economies,, fatily dead endgame. simplistic 1 dimentional PVP (gang fight) graphics over content quality and artificial feeling theme parks and no organic immersive worlds
(3) failure to listen to the flow of your beta testers ever hear of a game called SEED? ya beta testers were all over that one, we told them there was a "hole" in the wing but they launched anyway,, i think they lasted 2 months? conan had a similar urging to no avail and i think vanguard can be counted among them and there are other games coming out soon that dont listen to their testers sure your allways gonna have people at both extreems of the spectrum but then a large porton of your testers are telling theres a problem it might be smart to listen and try to do something before the disater.
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
Great article.
Congrats!
I was in the beta for SEED as well. As launch day quickly approached, I couldn't believe they were actually going for it. The idea for the game was incredible, and I hope someone else tries something like it one day. The "beta" game literally played like a pre-alpha concept build. It was a total disaster and it felt more like 90% of the game wasn't even written yet.
I remember going into the official IRC channel to voice my opinion, and having a couple of the devs tell me what an idiot I was and that I had no idea what I was talking about. I told them the game would completely tank, and would do so immediately upon launch. Making this prediction required no special psychic powers on my part. I was kick banned from the channel, and had my beta account suspended. Pretty much what I expected to happen, but I wanted to say my piece after having followed the game on the forums for a very long time.
Imagine my surprise when they bit the big one right after launch... What a waste of a cool idea. Yes, they ran out of money, but that's no excuse to charge people for a game that wasn't even remotely complete.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
The Chronicle
Dark and Light
DAoC - Trials of Atlantis
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
there may never be another NGE but developers have tried NGE Lite
You don't even have to look all that far. Under the Reign of Jack City of heroes has a series of nerfs that
Halves the effectivness of enhancments (gear)
reduced tank defenses AND agro control to a fraction of what it was while still letting blasters gean 3 times the agro cap of the tankers
Halved control powers AND doubled control power recharge (and removed multiple pets from controlers!)
oh...yeah...
and encourages blasters (whoses powers are Ranged dammage/melle dammages no armor or heals in their normal pools) to fight at low heath and refusing healing to maximize their dammage.
Good article but Mythic deserves one of the top 5 spots. I mean they've tried so hard to earn a spot on that list.
Trials of Atlantis almost destroyed the game by losing half their playerbase.
The continued efforts of Mark Jacobs to state "We've learned a lot from our mistakes with Daoc!" and then to Warhammer which might as well have been AoC with all the bugs and missing content and a design that was absolutely the opposite of what Mythic adverstised.
Yea, I"d have to put that at a solid no. 2
They were not silenced they just won't shut the fuck up...mores the pity.
And we never will.
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I agree with NGE but what about Trammel?
Messing up one of the greatest sandbox games ever created doesnt count as a blunder?
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Yes, excellent article, Dana! I wish you had written it.
I don't think anyone notices that the poster of the comment thread is generally NOT the author of the actual article.
I think MT can be done properly -- I don't think Cryptic is on the rigth track to doing it with what I've read so far on CO. I haven't seen anything yet on STO yet. Can someone post a link for that?
edit: sadly, I probably *would* shell out $10 to "unlock" the TOS red shirts for my characters! (it would be so wrong...)
Great article. I have to say the entry on Jack Emmert's statement regarding micro-transactions seems more of a case of foot in mouth than an actual 'blunder' such as printing false advertising on a package.
Quoted from the article - "..."Micro-transactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense," Emmert said. According to a rather detailed rundown of the event presented by the folks at Massively, Emmert explained how he liked to pay a single fee and not worry about it. He even pointed out that Pardo’s World of Warcraft, the most successful game in this genre, didn’t have them..." From this quote, I am getting the impression that Jack is merely expressing his own personal distaste for the particular strategy of utilizing micro-transactions either in addition to, or in place of utilizing purely subscription based models.
I think the fact that he has, shall we say, obviously seen the light - despite his personal feelings -and repented of his statement, shows me that he may have learned something from handing over the tightly held reins of the Cities of franchise to NC Soft/Paragon Studios. Regardless of what a developer might feel, sometimes trying to make a world tightly molded in their own personal vision can prove alienating to the player base. Since NC Soft took over, they have given us many things that we only dreamed about before. Players begged for years for new costume options, emotes to enhance the 'change' of costumes, fun new emotes, and many other 'fun' features - and now they are available for sale. I personally have purchased several (Wedding, Mac Items Pack (Valkyrie), Magic, Good vs Evil), and most on more than one account.
I think the direction of giving the players what they want (within reason) that the Cities have taken since the change in owndership has been nothing but positive and giving the players things that DO NOT affect game play and are just for 'fun' cannot hurt those who want to spend the extra entertainment funds this way. Any game can benefit from micro-transactions as long as they are handled properly and do not allow those with money to spare to buy superiority at the expense of those who cannot afford to constantly buy per-transaction upgrades.