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@ the harrdcore crowd
ryanmarshall
Member Posts: 58
I see a lot of people state they're annoyed how mmos seem to be catered towards casuals gamers since wow's success. Firstly what makes a game casual vs hardcore? and is the major difference between a hardcore and casual gamer free time to play games?
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No thats not it AT ALL.
Hardcore gamer likes a challenge. Not the kind of challenge where you have to kill 1000 of the same mob to get to next level, but where you need to use your brain so that not every retard can advance at the same pace as you and get the same rewards as you. Where with HIGH risks comes HIGH rewards.
The fact of the matter is. Casual gamers don't like competition. They can't stand it / handle it. So they shoud stick to singleplayer games, because obviously they can't enjoy a game where someone else is ahead of the curve.
R.I.P Chikaca Whachuchu
So there is no time commitment attached to being a hardcore gamer? Because in just about every mmorpg I've played, the longer someone spends playing gives them a greater edge on the competition. So for what mmorpgs is this formula irrelevant.
No thats not it AT ALL.
Hardcore gamer likes a challenge. Not the kind of challenge where you have to kill 1000 of the same mob to get to next level, but where you need to use your brain so that not every retard can advance at the same pace as you and get the same rewards as you. Where with HIGH risks comes HIGH rewards.
The fact of the matter is. Casual gamers don't like competition. They can't stand it / handle it. So they shoud stick to singleplayer games, because obviously they can't enjoy a game where someone else is ahead of the curve.
That's definetly not the hardcore vs casual definition being used by most people. If this definition was used then a lot of casuals would have to be redefined as harcore and a lot of hardcores as as casual (eg a lot of the serious raiders would be redefined as casual).
To me there is no such thing as Hardcore and Casual. They are just names made up to try and define certain playerbases. I myself for instance like to play on games like Darkfall but I am not competative. I don't like instances and I like a challenge. The more complex the better (Like Wurm for me). But I don't play for hours at a time day in and day out. I do it for the enjoyment and the journey and the friendship made and lost.
I like to gauge games on how much they can make me feel like I really am on an adventure. I would have a hard time stereotyping myself. Just like politics with republicans and democrats. Right vs. Wrong. Black vs. White. Most people don't fit one or the other some in between and some far past the norm.
Actually - most serious raiders end up being skilled players.
Partly because they learn through practice.
But also because any raid group with too many idiots will fall apart before long. Any skillful player will become fed up with wiping on the same boss over and over again due to the idiots making stupid mistakes (e.g. standing in the fire). And with the skillful players gone and only the idiots remaining, guilds go backwards in progress and then implode.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
No thats not it AT ALL.
Hardcore gamer likes a challenge. Not the kind of challenge where you have to kill 1000 of the same mob to get to next level, but where you need to use your brain so that not every retard can advance at the same pace as you and get the same rewards as you. Where with HIGH risks comes HIGH rewards.
The fact of the matter is. Casual gamers don't like competition. They can't stand it / handle it. So they shoud stick to singleplayer games, because obviously they can't enjoy a game where someone else is ahead of the curve.
This is a great definition of a hardcore gamer. Its not about time, its about effort. Hardcore players want a challenge, they want to learn from there mistakes which alot of the newer games do not allow you to make.
Sooner or Later
it's not the Casual vs Hardcore thing its the AAA companies Ommiting Challenging gameplay for easy gameplay to cater to a larger audience.
I can see why they do it but it sucks if you like a challenging experience.
In games like WoW you don;t get to the challenging gameplay until the last two 25 man dungeons the other time its easy stuff and quite boring.
other games are following suit and it suxs tbh.
To answer your question yes the difference between a casual player and hardcore player is time spent playing and researching a game. while this definition doesnt 100% acurately describe a casual and hardcore gamer (doesnt apply to everyone) its close.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Hardcore gamers don't play MMOs for a challenge. All MMOs are easy by definition and the only thing hardcore at all about them is the time sink. Hardcore gamers tend play skill based games (call of duty, halo, street fighter, etc.) for the challenge and MMOs to relax. Also these gamers compete in tournaments and practice.
Hardcore MMO players are delusional in thinking they are hardcore gamers. MMOs require just about no skill only time. I laugh at these supposed "Hardcore Gamers" that only play MMOs. LOL, give me a break.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
Why can't hardcore gamers play both?
I played CS, Starcraft and Streeft fighter like a fucking nut ( the real street fighter in fucking arcade machines in china town) and I also enjoy MMOs that take dedication, strats and everyone working toword a common goal.
I don't see how its different, you can play a MMO 10 hours a day and still be a newb so no its not ALL about time spent.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
MMOs are not easy by definition, they are easy because that is how they are being designed now. (Quest hubs). Skill based games as you call them are FPS, they are not a challenge, at least not for me. I can breeze though a FPS, I use them to relax. I am playing Far Cry 2 and EQ1, I use Far Cry to relax from EQ. EQ used to be a challenging game were smart players advanced faster and were given better rewards then the lazy or stupid players.
No game other then EvE rewards smart players in todays MMO market. Today everyone is reward based on time spent in game. The more time you spend playing the better rewards you get. This is more true today then ever before in MMOs. That is why I laugh at all the people who claim games like WoW removed the useless timesinks. WoW is one of the biggest timesink games on the market. The more time you put into WoW, the more rewards you get. Sure you level quicker to max but that is not the point of MMOs.
I am a hardcore gamer because I look for a challenge in my games, I want them to be hard to master, hard to learn, thinking required. I play MMOs because I enjoy over coming these challenges with others.
Gamers that compete in tournaments and practice all day are ultra hardcore gamers. Hardcore gamers are gamers that play games as their hobby. Casual gamers are gamers that play games when they can.
Sooner or Later
I see what your saying. Remember the sonic games and games like them? Three lives and its over. Those games were hard and still are. I still play sonic, galaga and others like them when i feel like torturing myself.
Well thats my definition. There are 3 types of games the way I see it.
Casual = easy to get into, don't really give a challenge, no penalties for failure, content repetitive and you can master everything with little effort & time.
Grind = moderate to get into, gives little challenge, moderate penalties for failure, content very repetitive
Hardcore = hard to get into (they don't hand you everything on a gold platter no journals or pointers telling you what you need to do or where you need to go) You need to think. Gives you great challenges with high risks and with high risks comes high rewards. Hard penalties for failure (loss of exp, equipment, ranking, faction and whatever). Content gives you new challenges. (You need new thinking & tactics to advance and also content gets harder towards the end the survival rate goes down extremely and random challenges occur that you need to be prepared for that gives no room for error!
R.I.P Chikaca Whachuchu
Why can't hardcore gamers play both?
I played CS, Starcraft and Streeft fighter like a fucking nut ( the real street fighter in fucking arcade machines in china town) and I also enjoy MMOs that take dedication, strats and everyone working toword a common goal.
I don't see how its different, you can play a MMO 10 hours a day and still be a newb so no its not ALL about time spent.
Hardcore gamers DO play both but no MMO ever made has been hardcore (except maybe darkfall because only the hardcore would put up with it). I am not really that hardcore of a gamer, I do play just about everything but I don't take it too seriously.
That said I don't think sitting at a computer for hours on end hitting the number keys and killing rats that just, well, sit there is anywhere close to the talent that some of those professional Halo 3 gamers have. Hell that make some serious money winning those tourneys.
There really is no MMO that requires skill and that is our internet structures fault mostly (no twitch based MMOs). The other problem is that MMOs cost a lot to make and if you want subscriptions it has to be entertaining and easy. So having the complexities of a really tough strategy game are out (one thing I would love to see in MMOs).
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Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
I see what your saying. Remember the sonic games and games like them? Three lives and its over. Those games were hard and still are. I still play sonic, galaga and others like them when i feel like torturing myself.
You think some MMOs are carebear? Go play a lot of those old NES, SNES and Genesis games. They kick your ass and make your realize how easy games are in this day and age. Its kind of sad really.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
MMOs are not easy by definition, they are easy because that is how they are being designed now. (Quest hubs). Skill based games as you call them are FPS, they are not a challenge, at least not for me. I can breeze though a FPS, I use them to relax. I am playing Far Cry 2 and EQ1, I use Far Cry to relax from EQ. EQ used to be a challenging game were smart players advanced faster and were given better rewards then the lazy or stupid players.
No game other then EvE rewards smart players in todays MMO market. Today everyone is reward based on time spent in game. The more time you spend playing the better rewards you get. This is more true today then ever before in MMOs. That is why I laugh at all the people who claim games like WoW removed the useless timesinks. WoW is one of the biggest timesink games on the market. The more time you put into WoW, the more rewards you get. Sure you level quicker to max but that is not the point of MMOs.
I am a hardcore gamer because I look for a challenge in my games, I want them to be hard to master, hard to learn, thinking required. I play MMOs because I enjoy over coming these challenges with others.
Gamers that compete in tournaments and practice all day are ultra hardcore gamers. Hardcore gamers are gamers that play games as their hobby. Casual gamers are gamers that play games when they can.
When I say hardcore gamers play cod, halo, etc. I mean competitively in a PvP environment. That is a challenge if you care about stats at all as it is skill vs skill.
Until MMOs allow player skill to shine through it will always be gear vs gear or op class vs everyone else.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
Are there any mmorpgs that reward skill/tactics/planning over time played? Oh and you are kidding yourself if you think eve comes under this heading, eve requires a major time commitment and multiple accounts if you want to get much achieved. Otherwise you will be someones biatch. I was thinking warhammer seeing as it is pvp orientated otherwise Im officially retiring from mmorpgs and sticking to left 4 dead which I've found an amazing challenge which requires organization, tactics, skill and co-ordination to lead your team to victory. I enjoy it even more than CoD and TF2 now. Best thing is they don't require any time commitment.
'Casual' used to mean one who did not have lots of time to play but was otherwise just as good as a more 'hardcore' player who could sped five or more hours a day, every day, playing their favorite MMO.
But over the years its meaning has shifted to mean, "One who lacks skill but wants to progress anyway"
The problem isn't casuals (in the latter sense), rather the fact that content designed for them isn't very interesting to so-called hardcore players (or even casuals in the former context, which I would consider myself) because it's not very challenging.
I think a perfect example would be Herioc dungeons in WoW. In their original form back when Burning Crusade was shiny and new, casuals (in the former sense) loved them because they didn't require the huge time commitment of raids and were challening enough to be interesting. Of course that didn't last, but you get the idea.
Some activities in EvE are also very well suited to the low-time / moderate-to-high skill casual playerbase, mostly industry and trading though.
Time commitment yes, requiring multiple accounts.... no.
You can do everything in eve with one account, is it easier to do shit with more? yeah... what mmo isnt.
And Eve does reward you for skill, tactics and planning also but it does require time its like a perfect mix and one of the reasons its the only freaking mmo on the market.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
That may be one difference, depending on who you ask. And therein lies the problem with this debate: its different for everyone.
I'm hardcore about virtual world concepts and roleplay, but I only log 10-15 hours a week in MMORPGs.
I don't particularly care to be 'challenged' in video games because my career and my other personal interests provide more than enough intellectual stimulation and competition.
In a nutshell, hardcore doesn't equal seeking challenges, lots of play time, or fascination with grind mechanics and antiquated timesink game design. It means whatever you want it to mean.
Time is always a factor in anything you do in life.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Currently I don't think there are. This genre is designed to keep people subscribing, and even the skill-based ones like Darkfall and Ultima have some time / reward exchange mechanic to keep the players paying monthly. Whether its grinding up skills or grinding out levels, you'll do some variation of that in every mmorpg.
The only 'game' that truly allows you to do whatever the hell you want irregardless of time spent is Second Life. And its not really a game in the traditional sense of the word.
This is not to say you can't have fun in traditional mmorpgs even if you don't play much. Just don't expect to be competitive when it comes to gear or pvp.
Time commitment yes, requiring multiple accounts.... no.
You can do everything in eve with one account, is it easier to do shit with more? yeah... what mmo isnt.
And Eve does reward you for skill, tactics and planning also but it does require time its like a perfect mix and one of the reasons its the only freaking mmo on the market.
Well ryanmarshall is right. By grouping up with people and joining corporations and alliances will significantly reduce the time to achieve many things. You can be successful as a solo player as well, but it does require significantly more time and dedication in comparison.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
"One who lacks commitment, but think they deserve rewards anyway"
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Ask 10 different people and you will get 10 different answers. Plus the meaning evolves constantly. Right now to be hardcore you have to be a pvp or raiding fanatic.
It is to bad a games can't be hardcore and casual at the same time anymore. Sigh the master piece that was UO.
I see what your saying. Remember the sonic games and games like them? Three lives and its over. Those games were hard and still are. I still play sonic, galaga and others like them when i feel like torturing myself.
You think some MMOs are carebear? Go play a lot of those old NES, SNES and Genesis games. They kick your ass and make your realize how easy games are in this day and age. Its kind of sad really.
Yes, WOW gets blamed for "nerfing" mmo's which i agree they have nerfed the game but its not just WOW. As you say none of the modern games, single player or mmo, are what they once were.