The funny thing about this program is that almost none of the vehicles being traded in are actually "clunkers" most are perfectly functional SUVs and minivans that are about 10 years old. Tremendous waste imo, since the vehicles are forbidden from resale. Think of the average working poor family that might all of a sudden been able to afford a perfectly decent used minivan/SUV.
This is something I don't understand. Oh wait, I do. This is to force people to buy up sitting inventory, and increase or stabilize the price of same, to make it look like the auto-bailout wasn't a failure. Kind of like how state governments are actually BURNING DOWN VACANT HOMES to reduce inventory instead of actually, ya know, selling or renting at lower prices.
And both of those paths are hopeless. All that has been accomplished is the wanton destruction of basic necessities that people desperately need and could put to use. But some people are SPITEFUL and would rather see those things TORCHED before actually selling at a loss to another person. If they can't reap massive profit, than no one can ever, ever have it. Its a "F%^& you!" to society.
Well, it was either "cash for clunkers", or load up all those 2009 cars still on the lots onto freighters and let them stand off the coast of Somalia until nature took it's course.
Luckily someone realized that would be a collosal waste of freighters.
Of course, AIG and the insurance industry were in favor of the Somali plan because then they could get another bailout.
Well gee, could it been because foreign made cars are more reliable, more efficient and cheaper produced. The problem lies within our own auto manufacturers not the policy itself.
The policy fails though since Obama
Could of just left it here, we all know what you meant.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Originally posted by olddaddy Well, it was either "cash for clunkers", or load up all those 2009 cars still on the lots onto freighters and let them stand off the coast of Somalia until nature took it's course. Luckily someone realized that would be a collosal waste of freighters. Of course, AIG and the insurance industry were in favor of the Somali plan because then they could get another bailout.
Olddaddy:
There is in fact a massive over-supply of freighters, described as a 'crisis' and it is exactly the same as the car situation except its not on the news. During the boom years there was a massive build-up of freighters, and orders were put in for more. Owners of freighters now can't afford the crew, the new boats, or get credit to ship supplies. Owners defaulting or quitting the business proceed to dump their freighters onto the saturated market.
IMO THAT is much worse than a saturated car market. We need those guys to transport the food : (
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
The agency amended its rule implementing the CARS program. Dealers may now choose to disable the engine of the trade-in vehicle after they receive payment from the government for the credit (not more than seven calendar days after payment). However, until the vehicle’s engine is disabled, the dealer must store the vehicle at a location under the control of the dealership.
In addition, because New Hampshire and Wisconsin do not have an insurance requirement under State law, trade-in vehicles registered in these two States are exempt from the one-year insurance requirement.
If they wanted to stimulate the auto industry, they should've tried this cash for clunkers program *before* GM filed for bankruptcy, before the government bailed them out, and before GM let go thousands of workers and dealerships. I mean why did they do cash for clunkers 1 month after giving GM $50 Billion in bailout dollars? It just confuses me so much, I don't know what in the world they are doing in DC.
But....perhaps government is smart in that they know if they did try this before GM bailout, and since majority of people are still buying foreign cars, it would be too evident that this cash for clunkers program isn't really helping Americans as much as it's helping foreign countries? Hrmmmm...
I'm not totally against this program, I just wish they had done this before spending $50billion to bail out GM, and had a restriction to buy American cars only. I mean if we're going to copy what Germany is doing, then let's copy what they're doing, not make a worse version of it. Sometimes I wonder why we pay these people in washington 6 digits for.
I liked the idea of this program, but as with all of our tax payer money, there should be made in USA, and american goods and labor clauses attached. If the tax payers of this country are paying for this, it should be to benefit our country long term, and that means keeping the money in the US to be reinvested in our communities. If the money is being sent out of the US, that is not an investment in our communities, our country or our people, that is throwing money away. Tax dollars should always be reinvested in our communities and not shipped overseas along with our jobs.
This is no way saying you cannot buy a foreign car, go right ahead, just not with tax payers dollars. Use your own money.
I liked the idea of this program, but as with all of our tax payer money, there should be made in USA, and american goods and labor clauses attached. If the tax payers of this country are paying for this, it should be to benefit our country long term, and that means keeping the money in the US to be reinvested in our communities. If the money is being sent out of the US, that is not an investment in our communities, our country or our people, that is throwing money away. Tax dollars should always be reinvested in our communities and not shipped overseas along with our jobs. This is no way saying you cannot buy a foreign car, go right ahead, just not with tax payers dollars. Use your own money.
Makes perfect sense, to average people like you and me, the everyday tax payers. But why can't people who are getting paid 6 digits from our pockets figure this out?
So I didn't read the whole thread but it seems like people think this was just to help the big 3 themselves. Anyone ever think about the dealers? American or forgien they were all in the crapper. This stimulated sales and got money into the american economy. This was needed on all levels of the industry.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
So I didn't read the whole thread but it seems like people think this was just to help the big 3 themselves. Anyone ever think about the dealers? American or forgien they were all in the crapper. This stimulated sales and got money into the american economy. This was needed on all levels of the industry.
I agree that it is needed on all levels, but defeats it's purpose long term if the money ends up leaving the country, rather than being reinvested in our own communities. That is why the American labor and goods clause is needed. The more of this money that ends up in the US being respent on our communities the better. That is the problem here, if we send it out of the country, there is no long term investment. We have to look at the long term and the short term here.
I agree that it is needed on all levels, but defeats it's purpose long term if the money ends up leaving the country, rather than being reinvested in our own communities. That is why the American labor and goods clause is needed. The more of this money that ends up in the US being respent on our communities the better. That is the problem here, if we send it out of the country, there is no long term investment. We have to look at the long term and the short term here.
Why must the American public suffer with inferior made products? Why should the American worker care about their work, when most employers try to screw over their employees at every opportunity? Made in the USA label is more of a warning then anything else.
Originally posted by protoroc Why must the American public suffer with inferior made products? Why should the American worker care about their work, when most employers try to screw over their employees at every opportunity? Made in the USA label is more of a warning then anything else.
Nobody's forcing you to turn in your old junk for a $4500 credit. Devil was saying if the government is to step in and give people incentives, it should be for American goods. Because you are using our tax money, the money people spend should stay within this country. With the majority of people still buying foreign cars through this cash for clunkers program, it's a bust because the money is leaving the country.
I liked the idea of this program, but as with all of our tax payer money, there should be made in USA, and american goods and labor clauses attached. If the tax payers of this country are paying for this, it should be to benefit our country long term, and that means keeping the money in the US to be reinvested in our communities. If the money is being sent out of the US, that is not an investment in our communities, our country or our people, that is throwing money away. Tax dollars should always be reinvested in our communities and not shipped overseas along with our jobs. This is no way saying you cannot buy a foreign car, go right ahead, just not with tax payers dollars. Use your own money.
People are using their own money.
The government is taking less from the dealers in tax, not sending your taxes to foreign companies.
No tax payer money is being spent on this scheme. It earns tax revenue.
Nobody's forcing you to turn in your old junk for a $4500 credit. Devil was saying if the government is to step in and give people incentives, it should be for American goods. Because you are using our tax money, the money people spend should stay within this country. With the majority of people still buying foreign cars through this cash for clunkers program, it's a bust because the money is leaving the country.
O Brian Hyundai/ Mitsubishi (a local dealership) is doubling Cash for Clunkers, offering $9000 for any tradein. I'd take advantage of the offer if I didnt have a prior medical debt dark clouding my credit in a heartbeat. (I love my F-150, the only good American vehicle imo, it just goes through too much gas and Id like to get something more fuel efficient.)
Fact is these dealerships already either own or are in debt for the cars on these lots. They also get taxed as merchandise sits on the lot. Most of these dealerships are American owned so the profit mostly stays here.
I bet if the conservatives initiated this plan, most of you naysayers would be all for Cash for Clunkers going on about how McCain/Palin really love the American populace and want to give back something to the people that helped them get where they are.
I liked the idea of this program, but as with all of our tax payer money, there should be made in USA, and american goods and labor clauses attached. If the tax payers of this country are paying for this, it should be to benefit our country long term, and that means keeping the money in the US to be reinvested in our communities. If the money is being sent out of the US, that is not an investment in our communities, our country or our people, that is throwing money away. Tax dollars should always be reinvested in our communities and not shipped overseas along with our jobs. This is no way saying you cannot buy a foreign car, go right ahead, just not with tax payers dollars. Use your own money.
People are using their own money.
The government is taking less from the dealers in tax, not sending your taxes to foreign companies.
No tax payer money is being spent on this scheme. It earns tax revenue.
It's a tax break, not a bailout.
I thought someone explained already in this thread that it is Tax revenue. A tax break is taxes that would have been collected and cutbacks or increases have to be made elsewhere to compensate for this " tax break". The tax break should only apply to american made goods and in fact there should be an increase, not a tax break on all imports in order to offset the prices on American made goods vs imports due to our min wage, and workers benefits costs. We do not currently have anything in place to offset the price differences in order to encourage American job growth, without something being put into place it will just result in more jobs being sent over seas.
It's a tax cut. The governent takes 33%+ on every car sold. On these ones they take 33%-$3500 or 33%-$4500. So unless the car you buy costs less than $10,500 or $13,500 the government still makes a profit on every car sold. It costs them nothing. Less than nothing. They gain money from it.
It didn't cost $4 billion. It cost $0 billion. They are making money.
And I don't have to wait a year for my proof. They introduced this scheme a year ago in Germany. They introduced it 6 months ago here. I already know what the results are. Car sales are going up when previously they were going down.
There is no federal tax on cars. And you don't even have to pay sales tax on that discount either in Texas.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
No car, no matter what type wins vs two tractor trailers. SUVs don't do too well against just one either:
THose arnt tractor trailers. They are Dump trucks... :P
But yeah. Fake is Fake
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
I liked the idea of this program, but as with all of our tax payer money, there should be made in USA, and american goods and labor clauses attached. If the tax payers of this country are paying for this, it should be to benefit our country long term, and that means keeping the money in the US to be reinvested in our communities. If the money is being sent out of the US, that is not an investment in our communities, our country or our people, that is throwing money away. Tax dollars should always be reinvested in our communities and not shipped overseas along with our jobs. This is no way saying you cannot buy a foreign car, go right ahead, just not with tax payers dollars. Use your own money.
People are using their own money.
The government is taking less from the dealers in tax, not sending your taxes to foreign companies.
No tax payer money is being spent on this scheme. It earns tax revenue.
It's a tax break, not a bailout.
I thought someone explained already in this thread that it is Tax revenue. A tax break is taxes that would have been collected and cutbacks or increases have to be made elsewhere to compensate for this " tax break". The tax break should only apply to american made goods and in fact there should be an increase, not a tax break on all imports in order to offset the prices on American made goods vs imports due to our min wage, and workers benefits costs. We do not currently have anything in place to offset the price differences in order to encourage American job growth, without something being put into place it will just result in more jobs being sent over seas.
This is not necessarily true. If no cars are being sold, the government is not making any tax revenue at all. 33%+ of $0 = $0 tax revenue.
If they sell a few for 10% then the government is gaining $, and it is gaining tax dollars off foreign cars.
10% of something is far better than 33% of nothing.
All the same tax breaks apply to American cars too. If oyu want to support the American car industry, you are being encouraged to by your government. If you apply sanctions to foreign cars, then foreign countries will apply sanctions to American cars.
How does it help the American car industry if the rest of the world imposes trade sanctions against them? Foreign governments are bailing out American car factories all over the world to the tune of billions. It won't do you any favours at all to piss them all off at this time.
To offset American goods vs foreign imports you need to devalue the $ and not start a trade war with the rest of the world.
Your government has been devaluing the dollar. The rest is up to you. Go out and buy American.
I liked the idea of this program, but as with all of our tax payer money, there should be made in USA, and american goods and labor clauses attached. If the tax payers of this country are paying for this, it should be to benefit our country long term, and that means keeping the money in the US to be reinvested in our communities. If the money is being sent out of the US, that is not an investment in our communities, our country or our people, that is throwing money away. Tax dollars should always be reinvested in our communities and not shipped overseas along with our jobs. This is no way saying you cannot buy a foreign car, go right ahead, just not with tax payers dollars. Use your own money.
People are using their own money.
The government is taking less from the dealers in tax, not sending your taxes to foreign companies.
No tax payer money is being spent on this scheme. It earns tax revenue.
It's a tax break, not a bailout.
I thought someone explained already in this thread that it is Tax revenue. A tax break is taxes that would have been collected and cutbacks or increases have to be made elsewhere to compensate for this " tax break". The tax break should only apply to american made goods and in fact there should be an increase, not a tax break on all imports in order to offset the prices on American made goods vs imports due to our min wage, and workers benefits costs. We do not currently have anything in place to offset the price differences in order to encourage American job growth, without something being put into place it will just result in more jobs being sent over seas.
This is not necessarily true. If no cars are being sold, the government is not making any tax revenue at all. 33%+ of $0 = $0 tax revenue.
If they sell a few for 10% then the government is gaining $, and it is gaining tax dollars off foreign cars.
10% of something is far better than 33% of nothing.
All the same tax breaks apply to American cars too. If oyu want to support the American car industry, you are being encouraged to by your government. If you apply sanctions to foreign cars, then foreign countries will apply sanctions to American cars.
How does it help the American car industry if the rest of the world imposes trade sanctions against them? Foreign governments are bailing out American car factories all over the world to the tune of billions. It won't do you any favours at all to piss them all off at this time.
To offset American goods vs foreign imports you need to devalue the $ and not start a trade war with the rest of the world.
Your government has been devaluing the dollar. The rest is up to you. Go out and buy American.
How does the American Government make money off the cars sold when there is NO FEDERAL SALES TAX in the US? Where do you get your percentages from? They will make revenues from the income taxes alone, but if those cars are not made in the US, they receieve less than if they were produced in the US, solely on the incomes of the American workers and companies.
Other countries already have policies in place to help protect their jobs and give incentives to buy products made in their own countries, why would it piss off other countries if America then followed suit and did the same? You see, right now in our own country American products are much more expensive than buying foreign products, they cannot compete due to our labor laws. Unless we balance this, ALL AMERICAN businesses are at risk, not just automakers. It makes NO SENSE that products made in another country then paid to be shipped across the world is still much less expensive to consumers than products made on our soil.
I already OWN American cars. I pay more for American products because I care about American jobs. Why would the US be singled out and have trade sanctions imposed on them for implementing polices they already have in many other countries?
Which other countries would that be that have trade sanctions against America?
I can't think of any.
Iran? North Korea? Who cares. You don't sell any cars in those places anyway. Never have, never will.
The bulk of your export trade is with WTO countries. None of them have any weighting against your imports. They aren't allowed to any more than you are. You could always leave the WTO if you like, but as the worlds largest economy, it's you that benefits most from being in it.
This scheme is in use in many countries around the world already and has been for almost a year in some of them. None of the other countries operating it restrict it to domestically made cars only. Although all of them have had public outcry to do so when the scheme was first introduced. The exact same complaints you are making were made here too, 6 months ago. 6 months on all the complainst have stopped and the scheme is being broadly accoladed as a success. Car sales are no increasing month on month where they were decreasing month on month.
I will repeat to you that American car factories abroad have been the recipients of multiple foreign government bailouts. You aren't being hard done by. No one is going to cry tears for you.
I don't care if state or federal government gets the tax. Tax is tax. Govenrment is government.
I'm making up the figures off the top of head.
33% is the sales tax I am used to paying in the U.S.
Using this as my base tax figure, I calculate that a car must be sold at less than $10,500 or $13,500 in order for the government to make no tax on this deal. (Tax credits are either $3,500 or $4,500 in the U.S.) So, as long as a dealer sells cars for more than this, the government is making money out it.
Again I don't know what a new car goes for in the U.S. I know they are much cheaper than they are here. I suspect that the bulk of them cost more than $10,500-$13,500 and those that cost less are going to be made up for by the large amount that cost more.
I also suspect there are other hidden taxes that the government makes out of car sales, income tax as you noted on the dealers and garage mechanics, maybe some sort of road tax like we have here. Petrol tax, sales tax on the insurance etc etc etc, so I think 33% is probably a conservative estimate, assuming that 33% sales tax is what you are used to paying.
The very idea that you thought the government weren't making any money out of this is laughable. Taxing you is the only thing they are really good at.
Which other countries would that be that have trade sanctions against America? I can't think of any. Iran? North Korea? Who cares. You don't sell any cars in those places anyway. Never have, never will.
This scheme is in use in many countries around the world already and has been for almost a year in some of them. None of the other countries operating it restrict it to domestically made cars only. Although all of them have had public outcry to do so when the scheme was first introduced. I will repeat to you that American car factories abroad have been the recipients of multiple foreign government bailouts. You aren't being hard done by. No one is going to cry tears for you.
I don't care if state or federal government gets the tax. Tax is tax. Govenrment is government. I'm making up the figures. 33% is the sales tax I am used to paying in the U.S. Using this as my base tax figure, I calculate that a car must be sold at less than $10,500 or $13,500 in order for the government to make no tax on this deal. (Tax credits are either $3,500 or $4,500 in the U.S.) So, as long as a dealer sells cars for more than this, the government is making money out it. Again I don't know what a new car goes for in the U.S. I know they are much cheaper than they are here. I suspect that the bulk of them cost more than $10,500-$13500 and those that cost less are going to be made up for by the large amount that cost more.
The very idea that you thought the government weren't making any money out of this is laughable. Taxing you is the only thing they are any good at.
I was not talking about sanctions against the US silly, I was talking about protection policies in place. Do people trade sanction Canada for having protective policies? Why is it other countries are allowed to have policies encouraging job growth in their own country, but yet America would be singled out if they followed suit and did the same?
33%?!!! oh my lol .. where has 33% sales tax? Texas state sales tax is around 8% and we have no state income tax. Only federal income tax. And yes people here in the states even get around their state sales tax by ordering things from other states and having them shipped to another state resulting in no sales tax at all being paid.
Government is not Government.. LOL state government isvery much separate from federal government and the revenues are spent on different things.
The American auto industry should have never had to have bailouts period if we had incentives prior to a collapse, using the bailouts as an excuse after the fact, when people here in the states had been calling for incentives for years only to be rejected. It should not have to take something this serious to make people realize that ALL of our industries are in deep trouble, and changes need to be made to protect the last of what is left here.
All I hear about in campaigns is catering to the automakers and oil companies ..blah blah blah. When the truth is we are running all of our businesse out of the country, and when we do we will have no industry or jobs left. We MUST provide incentives for americans to buy products made on our own soil by our own people or we will have no jobs left. It has gotten that bad, and is only getting worse.
America being viewed as the shoppers, not the producers of the world is the primary problem here. We need to be buying our own goods and keep importing to a minimum. All government policies and programs need to focus on that rather than catering to other countries in order to get this straightened out. Until our country is abundant in jobs, we cannot afford to spend another cent on making other countries wealthy , we need to put our nations own citizens first.
I didn't realise Canada had any protectionist policies against American cars.
I'd never really thought about them having a car industry at all. In fact I hadn't really thought of them having any protectionsim against America at all. They don't against Britain as far as I know. What cars do they make?
The American Auto industry has had numerous bailouts from foreign governments including my own. As I said no tears are flowing for you round here. I don't remember any U.S. bailouts to British companies operating in the U.S.
It doesn't cut both ways with you guys, it never has. It's not a relationship of equals. The little guys never get the best deals let alone an equal one.
Strangely only the French seem to make a profit in America. Good for them. Everyone else makes a whopping loss. It's just one big expensive subsidy. Like a kind of tribute.
I highly doubt the Canadians are getting one over on you economically. Highly doubt it. it's just the usual self pity routine. Oh poor little America, taken advantage of by all those big nasty foreign nations. Who are you trying to kid? Everyone knows where the power lies.
If your industries suck and are unprofitable, all incentives will do is bankrupt every other sector of the economy too. Oh wait a minute, that's already happened. Close your shitty unprofitable industries. Close them all now.
Unless your personal job or political career depend on it, in which case try and guilt other people to work harder and keep you in an anti-social career.
I have some sympathy for the loss and migration of major industries out of America. Britain has undergone the same change. The human element of people losing their jobs and homes is miserable. I know it's in the greater good for them to, or that they onkly had them on a false economy to start with, and should be grateful for what little time they had in that state of artifical wealth, but you can't say that to someone in that circumstance. Hurting is hurting. Whole towns going broke is long term bad news.
I also think there is such a thing as critical industry. An industry that a country cannot afford to let die. Food or armaments for example. Some would say the auto industry.
But er.. leaving the WTO is not the answer. Without making up any more figures you would lose more income than you would gain. You can go isolationist if you like, but you have the worlds largest trade empire. You won't be able to keep yourselves in the lifestyles you currently are used to if you do.
I seem to be quite off the deep end with regards to sales tax. For some reason I had it down as 33%. I used to live in California, but Google says it was only 7% when I was there. I've always thought it was the only U.S. tax larger than a U.K. tax. How wrong I am.
Oh, and for me, tax is tax. Government is government. Federal or local. Makes no difference to me. I still have to pay it. I still have to do what they tell me.
Comments
This is something I don't understand. Oh wait, I do. This is to force people to buy up sitting inventory, and increase or stabilize the price of same, to make it look like the auto-bailout wasn't a failure. Kind of like how state governments are actually BURNING DOWN VACANT HOMES to reduce inventory instead of actually, ya know, selling or renting at lower prices.
And both of those paths are hopeless. All that has been accomplished is the wanton destruction of basic necessities that people desperately need and could put to use. But some people are SPITEFUL and would rather see those things TORCHED before actually selling at a loss to another person. If they can't reap massive profit, than no one can ever, ever have it. Its a "F%^& you!" to society.
Well, it was either "cash for clunkers", or load up all those 2009 cars still on the lots onto freighters and let them stand off the coast of Somalia until nature took it's course.
Luckily someone realized that would be a collosal waste of freighters.
Of course, AIG and the insurance industry were in favor of the Somali plan because then they could get another bailout.
The policy fails though since Obama
Could of just left it here, we all know what you meant.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Olddaddy:
There is in fact a massive over-supply of freighters, described as a 'crisis' and it is exactly the same as the car situation except its not on the news. During the boom years there was a massive build-up of freighters, and orders were put in for more. Owners of freighters now can't afford the crew, the new boats, or get credit to ship supplies. Owners defaulting or quitting the business proceed to dump their freighters onto the saturated market.
IMO THAT is much worse than a saturated car market. We need those guys to transport the food : (
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
This is a DISCOUNT to consumers and a REBATE to dealers... so yes the REBATE does cost tax dollars.
http://www.cars.gov/
The agency amended its rule implementing the CARS program. Dealers may now choose to disable the engine of the trade-in vehicle after they receive payment from the government for the credit (not more than seven calendar days after payment). However, until the vehicle’s engine is disabled, the dealer must store the vehicle at a location under the control of the dealership.
In addition, because New Hampshire and Wisconsin do not have an insurance requirement under State law, trade-in vehicles registered in these two States are exempt from the one-year insurance requirement.
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
I laughed. HARD.
"A stupid idea to you is the memory of a lifetime for me"
If they wanted to stimulate the auto industry, they should've tried this cash for clunkers program *before* GM filed for bankruptcy, before the government bailed them out, and before GM let go thousands of workers and dealerships. I mean why did they do cash for clunkers 1 month after giving GM $50 Billion in bailout dollars? It just confuses me so much, I don't know what in the world they are doing in DC.
But....perhaps government is smart in that they know if they did try this before GM bailout, and since majority of people are still buying foreign cars, it would be too evident that this cash for clunkers program isn't really helping Americans as much as it's helping foreign countries? Hrmmmm...
I'm not totally against this program, I just wish they had done this before spending $50billion to bail out GM, and had a restriction to buy American cars only. I mean if we're going to copy what Germany is doing, then let's copy what they're doing, not make a worse version of it. Sometimes I wonder why we pay these people in washington 6 digits for.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
I liked the idea of this program, but as with all of our tax payer money, there should be made in USA, and american goods and labor clauses attached. If the tax payers of this country are paying for this, it should be to benefit our country long term, and that means keeping the money in the US to be reinvested in our communities. If the money is being sent out of the US, that is not an investment in our communities, our country or our people, that is throwing money away. Tax dollars should always be reinvested in our communities and not shipped overseas along with our jobs.
This is no way saying you cannot buy a foreign car, go right ahead, just not with tax payers dollars. Use your own money.
Makes perfect sense, to average people like you and me, the everyday tax payers. But why can't people who are getting paid 6 digits from our pockets figure this out?
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
It's obvious that isn't the same car, lol. Putting up fake pics doesn't really help the discussion on car safety.
No car, no matter what type wins vs two tractor trailers. SUVs don't do too well against just one either:
"TO MICHAEL!"
So I didn't read the whole thread but it seems like people think this was just to help the big 3 themselves. Anyone ever think about the dealers? American or forgien they were all in the crapper. This stimulated sales and got money into the american economy. This was needed on all levels of the industry.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
I agree that it is needed on all levels, but defeats it's purpose long term if the money ends up leaving the country, rather than being reinvested in our own communities. That is why the American labor and goods clause is needed. The more of this money that ends up in the US being respent on our communities the better. That is the problem here, if we send it out of the country, there is no long term investment. We have to look at the long term and the short term here.
I agree that it is needed on all levels, but defeats it's purpose long term if the money ends up leaving the country, rather than being reinvested in our own communities. That is why the American labor and goods clause is needed. The more of this money that ends up in the US being respent on our communities the better. That is the problem here, if we send it out of the country, there is no long term investment. We have to look at the long term and the short term here.
Why must the American public suffer with inferior made products? Why should the American worker care about their work, when most employers try to screw over their employees at every opportunity? Made in the USA label is more of a warning then anything else.
Nobody's forcing you to turn in your old junk for a $4500 credit. Devil was saying if the government is to step in and give people incentives, it should be for American goods. Because you are using our tax money, the money people spend should stay within this country. With the majority of people still buying foreign cars through this cash for clunkers program, it's a bust because the money is leaving the country.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
People are using their own money.
The government is taking less from the dealers in tax, not sending your taxes to foreign companies.
No tax payer money is being spent on this scheme. It earns tax revenue.
It's a tax break, not a bailout.
Nobody's forcing you to turn in your old junk for a $4500 credit. Devil was saying if the government is to step in and give people incentives, it should be for American goods. Because you are using our tax money, the money people spend should stay within this country. With the majority of people still buying foreign cars through this cash for clunkers program, it's a bust because the money is leaving the country.
O Brian Hyundai/ Mitsubishi (a local dealership) is doubling Cash for Clunkers, offering $9000 for any tradein. I'd take advantage of the offer if I didnt have a prior medical debt dark clouding my credit in a heartbeat. (I love my F-150, the only good American vehicle imo, it just goes through too much gas and Id like to get something more fuel efficient.)
Fact is these dealerships already either own or are in debt for the cars on these lots. They also get taxed as merchandise sits on the lot. Most of these dealerships are American owned so the profit mostly stays here.
I bet if the conservatives initiated this plan, most of you naysayers would be all for Cash for Clunkers going on about how McCain/Palin really love the American populace and want to give back something to the people that helped them get where they are.
People are using their own money.
The government is taking less from the dealers in tax, not sending your taxes to foreign companies.
No tax payer money is being spent on this scheme. It earns tax revenue.
It's a tax break, not a bailout.
I thought someone explained already in this thread that it is Tax revenue. A tax break is taxes that would have been collected and cutbacks or increases have to be made elsewhere to compensate for this " tax break". The tax break should only apply to american made goods and in fact there should be an increase, not a tax break on all imports in order to offset the prices on American made goods vs imports due to our min wage, and workers benefits costs. We do not currently have anything in place to offset the price differences in order to encourage American job growth, without something being put into place it will just result in more jobs being sent over seas.
It's obvious that isn't the same car, lol. Putting up fake pics doesn't really help the discussion on car safety.
No car, no matter what type wins vs two tractor trailers. SUVs don't do too well against just one either:
Yeah..even German cars don't last vs two tractor trailers
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
There is no federal tax on cars. And you don't even have to pay sales tax on that discount either in Texas.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
No car, no matter what type wins vs two tractor trailers. SUVs don't do too well against just one either:
THose arnt tractor trailers. They are Dump trucks... :P
But yeah. Fake is Fake
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
People are using their own money.
The government is taking less from the dealers in tax, not sending your taxes to foreign companies.
No tax payer money is being spent on this scheme. It earns tax revenue.
It's a tax break, not a bailout.
I thought someone explained already in this thread that it is Tax revenue. A tax break is taxes that would have been collected and cutbacks or increases have to be made elsewhere to compensate for this " tax break". The tax break should only apply to american made goods and in fact there should be an increase, not a tax break on all imports in order to offset the prices on American made goods vs imports due to our min wage, and workers benefits costs. We do not currently have anything in place to offset the price differences in order to encourage American job growth, without something being put into place it will just result in more jobs being sent over seas.
This is not necessarily true. If no cars are being sold, the government is not making any tax revenue at all. 33%+ of $0 = $0 tax revenue.
If they sell a few for 10% then the government is gaining $, and it is gaining tax dollars off foreign cars.
10% of something is far better than 33% of nothing.
All the same tax breaks apply to American cars too. If oyu want to support the American car industry, you are being encouraged to by your government. If you apply sanctions to foreign cars, then foreign countries will apply sanctions to American cars.
How does it help the American car industry if the rest of the world imposes trade sanctions against them? Foreign governments are bailing out American car factories all over the world to the tune of billions. It won't do you any favours at all to piss them all off at this time.
To offset American goods vs foreign imports you need to devalue the $ and not start a trade war with the rest of the world.
Your government has been devaluing the dollar. The rest is up to you. Go out and buy American.
People are using their own money.
The government is taking less from the dealers in tax, not sending your taxes to foreign companies.
No tax payer money is being spent on this scheme. It earns tax revenue.
It's a tax break, not a bailout.
I thought someone explained already in this thread that it is Tax revenue. A tax break is taxes that would have been collected and cutbacks or increases have to be made elsewhere to compensate for this " tax break". The tax break should only apply to american made goods and in fact there should be an increase, not a tax break on all imports in order to offset the prices on American made goods vs imports due to our min wage, and workers benefits costs. We do not currently have anything in place to offset the price differences in order to encourage American job growth, without something being put into place it will just result in more jobs being sent over seas.
This is not necessarily true. If no cars are being sold, the government is not making any tax revenue at all. 33%+ of $0 = $0 tax revenue.
If they sell a few for 10% then the government is gaining $, and it is gaining tax dollars off foreign cars.
10% of something is far better than 33% of nothing.
All the same tax breaks apply to American cars too. If oyu want to support the American car industry, you are being encouraged to by your government. If you apply sanctions to foreign cars, then foreign countries will apply sanctions to American cars.
How does it help the American car industry if the rest of the world imposes trade sanctions against them? Foreign governments are bailing out American car factories all over the world to the tune of billions. It won't do you any favours at all to piss them all off at this time.
To offset American goods vs foreign imports you need to devalue the $ and not start a trade war with the rest of the world.
Your government has been devaluing the dollar. The rest is up to you. Go out and buy American.
How does the American Government make money off the cars sold when there is NO FEDERAL SALES TAX in the US? Where do you get your percentages from? They will make revenues from the income taxes alone, but if those cars are not made in the US, they receieve less than if they were produced in the US, solely on the incomes of the American workers and companies.
Other countries already have policies in place to help protect their jobs and give incentives to buy products made in their own countries, why would it piss off other countries if America then followed suit and did the same? You see, right now in our own country American products are much more expensive than buying foreign products, they cannot compete due to our labor laws. Unless we balance this, ALL AMERICAN businesses are at risk, not just automakers. It makes NO SENSE that products made in another country then paid to be shipped across the world is still much less expensive to consumers than products made on our soil.
I already OWN American cars. I pay more for American products because I care about American jobs. Why would the US be singled out and have trade sanctions imposed on them for implementing polices they already have in many other countries?
Which other countries would that be that have trade sanctions against America?
I can't think of any.
Iran? North Korea? Who cares. You don't sell any cars in those places anyway. Never have, never will.
The bulk of your export trade is with WTO countries. None of them have any weighting against your imports. They aren't allowed to any more than you are. You could always leave the WTO if you like, but as the worlds largest economy, it's you that benefits most from being in it.
This scheme is in use in many countries around the world already and has been for almost a year in some of them. None of the other countries operating it restrict it to domestically made cars only. Although all of them have had public outcry to do so when the scheme was first introduced. The exact same complaints you are making were made here too, 6 months ago. 6 months on all the complainst have stopped and the scheme is being broadly accoladed as a success. Car sales are no increasing month on month where they were decreasing month on month.
I will repeat to you that American car factories abroad have been the recipients of multiple foreign government bailouts. You aren't being hard done by. No one is going to cry tears for you.
I don't care if state or federal government gets the tax. Tax is tax. Govenrment is government.
I'm making up the figures off the top of head.
33% is the sales tax I am used to paying in the U.S.
Using this as my base tax figure, I calculate that a car must be sold at less than $10,500 or $13,500 in order for the government to make no tax on this deal. (Tax credits are either $3,500 or $4,500 in the U.S.) So, as long as a dealer sells cars for more than this, the government is making money out it.
Again I don't know what a new car goes for in the U.S. I know they are much cheaper than they are here. I suspect that the bulk of them cost more than $10,500-$13,500 and those that cost less are going to be made up for by the large amount that cost more.
I also suspect there are other hidden taxes that the government makes out of car sales, income tax as you noted on the dealers and garage mechanics, maybe some sort of road tax like we have here. Petrol tax, sales tax on the insurance etc etc etc, so I think 33% is probably a conservative estimate, assuming that 33% sales tax is what you are used to paying.
The very idea that you thought the government weren't making any money out of this is laughable. Taxing you is the only thing they are really good at.
I was not talking about sanctions against the US silly, I was talking about protection policies in place. Do people trade sanction Canada for having protective policies? Why is it other countries are allowed to have policies encouraging job growth in their own country, but yet America would be singled out if they followed suit and did the same?
33%?!!! oh my lol .. where has 33% sales tax? Texas state sales tax is around 8% and we have no state income tax. Only federal income tax. And yes people here in the states even get around their state sales tax by ordering things from other states and having them shipped to another state resulting in no sales tax at all being paid.
Government is not Government.. LOL state government isvery much separate from federal government and the revenues are spent on different things.
The American auto industry should have never had to have bailouts period if we had incentives prior to a collapse, using the bailouts as an excuse after the fact, when people here in the states had been calling for incentives for years only to be rejected. It should not have to take something this serious to make people realize that ALL of our industries are in deep trouble, and changes need to be made to protect the last of what is left here.
All I hear about in campaigns is catering to the automakers and oil companies ..blah blah blah. When the truth is we are running all of our businesse out of the country, and when we do we will have no industry or jobs left. We MUST provide incentives for americans to buy products made on our own soil by our own people or we will have no jobs left. It has gotten that bad, and is only getting worse.
America being viewed as the shoppers, not the producers of the world is the primary problem here. We need to be buying our own goods and keep importing to a minimum. All government policies and programs need to focus on that rather than catering to other countries in order to get this straightened out. Until our country is abundant in jobs, we cannot afford to spend another cent on making other countries wealthy , we need to put our nations own citizens first.
I didn't realise Canada had any protectionist policies against American cars.
I'd never really thought about them having a car industry at all. In fact I hadn't really thought of them having any protectionsim against America at all. They don't against Britain as far as I know. What cars do they make?
The American Auto industry has had numerous bailouts from foreign governments including my own. As I said no tears are flowing for you round here. I don't remember any U.S. bailouts to British companies operating in the U.S.
It doesn't cut both ways with you guys, it never has. It's not a relationship of equals. The little guys never get the best deals let alone an equal one.
Strangely only the French seem to make a profit in America. Good for them. Everyone else makes a whopping loss. It's just one big expensive subsidy. Like a kind of tribute.
I highly doubt the Canadians are getting one over on you economically. Highly doubt it. it's just the usual self pity routine. Oh poor little America, taken advantage of by all those big nasty foreign nations. Who are you trying to kid? Everyone knows where the power lies.
If your industries suck and are unprofitable, all incentives will do is bankrupt every other sector of the economy too. Oh wait a minute, that's already happened. Close your shitty unprofitable industries. Close them all now.
Unless your personal job or political career depend on it, in which case try and guilt other people to work harder and keep you in an anti-social career.
I have some sympathy for the loss and migration of major industries out of America. Britain has undergone the same change. The human element of people losing their jobs and homes is miserable. I know it's in the greater good for them to, or that they onkly had them on a false economy to start with, and should be grateful for what little time they had in that state of artifical wealth, but you can't say that to someone in that circumstance. Hurting is hurting. Whole towns going broke is long term bad news.
I also think there is such a thing as critical industry. An industry that a country cannot afford to let die. Food or armaments for example. Some would say the auto industry.
But er.. leaving the WTO is not the answer. Without making up any more figures you would lose more income than you would gain. You can go isolationist if you like, but you have the worlds largest trade empire. You won't be able to keep yourselves in the lifestyles you currently are used to if you do.
I seem to be quite off the deep end with regards to sales tax. For some reason I had it down as 33%. I used to live in California, but Google says it was only 7% when I was there. I've always thought it was the only U.S. tax larger than a U.K. tax. How wrong I am.
Oh, and for me, tax is tax. Government is government. Federal or local. Makes no difference to me. I still have to pay it. I still have to do what they tell me.