I love how many generalizations are present in the first two posts of this thread. I've never had trouble finding a group in World of Warcraft. There are so many easy ways to gear up your character for most content without raiding. Most people are turned away from the raids I attend for being undergeared for that very same reason. If you can't spend a little bit of time getting what gear you have access to, you obviously care very little for that character, and ultimately for the outcome of our encounter. The fact that someone said you needed specific macros and gear. Honestly, some content in WoW requires a certain level of experience and ability in order to have a chance at defeating the boss. If you have a problem getting a macro to work (most macros people try to enforce in raids are for targeting, which are really simple), then you might not be suited for a raid. There are plenty of other ways to get gear in that game.
That being said, I think games are doing the opposite of what the OP has suggested. Games like EverQuest and Ultima Online in their prime were much more elitist than the MMORPG market of today. When I played EverQuest years ago it was much more difficult to find groups, kill raid bosses, and get gear. Even the tradeskill items offered in the game required grouping, which made those even more difficult to obtain. Today, World of Warcraft and other current MMORPGs offer a certain amount of gear and accomplishment to come to a player without having to submit to the whims of the "hardcore." Every patch, in WoW at least, brings more and more content to the casual crowd. This is something I personally agree with. I think people, probably more like the OP, benefit from these patches. Now they can reach that gear level for raiding, and in the mean time have things to do that don't require obscene gear or experience. To say that games are more elitist now, in my opinion, comes from players who weren't around when games were far less forgiving and players equally so.
You must not have paid that much attention over the years then. In EQ's prime, the 99% of the elitists belonged to the top end guilds of the servers and you usually never saw them due to their guild raiding 24/7. The other 1% were the ones who thought that the only good group was built like a group in a raid, and that if you didn't follow their rules or their command you were kicked.
Finding a group in WoW is easy towards the lower levels, but as you start getting to the end game, getting a PUG can be a nightmare. There were many times when I was in Heroic PUGs that took forever to get the people because the leader only wanted people with certain gear or certain talents. Which I could never understand why someone would do that seeing as how the gear that would drop in said Heroic would benefit the person they decided not to invite, by being upgrades for them so that they would be more effective in a Heroic. Raids are even worse due to the fact that besides having the gear and specific talents, most of the people for PUG raids want the ones to join to know all the battles of said raid. Now this isn't a bad thing mind you, but many very skilled players that have the gear and are wanting to do said raid to get better gear, and know the raid are turned away just because they never been to that particular raid. (This I know from experience, due to belonging to a guild that didn't have the manpower to raid Naxx.)
But, atleast WoW isn't as bad about it as FFXI. I'm sorry, but a game that has people that won't give you a chance because you don't have the right sub-job is just unbelievable. A friend of mine told me about his experiences as a Nin/Blk Mg. The people didn't want to invite him just because their healer would actually have to get off their butts and heal. He'd barely get hit, and had dps/aggro out the yin-yang. When he DID get hit however it would do a nice chunck of health, but that was if he was hit which was next to never.
The main point the OP is trying to get at, is that most people are saying that unless you have certain specific qualifications (gear, knowledge of said instance, achievements, talents, etc.), that you won't be worth having in a group because then the group wouldn't clear the dungeon as fast. Who cares about clearing a dungeon fast seeing as how at end-game in WoW there is a lock-out timer on the dungeon. That just takes away from the experience of the place you are at. That being said, this mindset is one reason why I quit playing WoW (other than the fact that I am completely burned out).
it happened when people stopped caring about playing together for fun and started focusing more on competition to be the best. in order to be the best, you have to surround yourself with players who you also deem to be some of the best. so if you dont have "x" this or "x " that, you aren't one of the best. therefore you arent "leet" enough to play with the elite.
btw on the FFXI thing, when it comes to elite-ismes, it doesn't get any worse than that game. i pray theres still hope for FFXIV.
As layers of complexity are added onto the game, you "need" certain attributes in order to maximize your contribution to the group because the players forming these groups want loot farming robots to help them obtain junk, not fellow group members.
When I left WoW, my 80 mage would get tells quite frequently asking me what my spell power or DPS was because they "needed a good mage in the guild (or group)" and I would always tell them, "Oh, it's about 780. I'm mostly Spirit." Solved that problem in a hurry. I have no time for that "will check Armory" shit.
--- I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave.
To answer the title of this post, ever since the first game was created, and I'm sure that game involved sticks and rocks.
All MMOs have been about being the best, and since I skimmed some posts and it seems to involve finding groups and such, I don't want someone who doesn't know how to play well and efficiently holding me back. So I am one of those people that will group only with people I know are good.
However when I just want to kill some time I'll offer free help to lower level quests that I can help plow through for someone.
In my opinion, an "elite" is different depending on what the game style is:
1. Solo: Elites are people who try to beat the game the quickest and reach max level cap. They are usually the ones that use guides.
2. Casual Group: Elites are people that will kick you out of a group if you are not level "so and so" or don't have a specific skill. Raid parties are like this in these types of games.
3. Hardcore Group: Elites are people that will refuse you access to a group because you don't have the specific skills or aren't a particular level. However, this is done because the group may be going someplace where failure and dying has extreme consequences, so the group really needs to be in top shape or failure is imminent.
Now, this is just my opinion, but many of you who bag on FF XI being too elite don't exactly realize what a hardcore group game is, and why choosing the right people for a group was important. Plus, even with that sort of mentality, I can say that FF XI had the nicest community I've ever seen in an mmorpg. They were helpful, asshats were destroyed quickly in the game (word gets around, people refuse to party with you), and basically all the positives of harsh environment showed (death penalties were severe in the game, one more reason why groups made sure they had all roles set).
I've found that finding a group for levelling purposes is always a lot tougher in games where grinding quests is the most efficient, or most common way to level. Most people are quite selfish. That's nothing new, but it means they are not willing to group up if they don't have common goals with the rest of the group. If a game is based around questing for xp, it is likely to have a ton of unique quests, and finding people in your level range that have the exact same quests at the exact same stages as you, is almost impossible. If, in addition, the game is solo-friendly, it is less of a hassle to just solo than going through the pains of finding a group.
Compare that to games where most xp comes directly from the kills. Grouping up means you can kill tougher mobs (At least if the game doesn't have silly, artificial restrictions that make mobs much higher level than you invulnerable to your attacks), and levelling in a group is as fast as, or faster than levelling alone even if you don't get an ideal group. Someone leaves? Get a new member. Content gets too easy or too hard with current group? Change hunting grounds. Grinding mobs may be even more tedious than grinding quests, but at least it's easier to make it a social experience.
Of course, the "quest grinding" games also have group-only content, but this can be avoided, and is usually done for gear rather than xp. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, but it does create groups that tend to break up the second one person gets what he wants.
As for elitist attitudes in general, I think those have always been there. It just tends to be more prevalent among players doing endgame PVE content. With that in mind, there's obviously going to be a huge difference between a game where 5% of the population is involved in engame PVE, and one where more than 80% are. I say PVE, not because PVE focused players are more elitist than PVP focused players, but because it's easier to back up bragging with items from PVE content than achievements in PVP.
The one where I don't feel rushed by all the other efficient solo'ers, and intentionally slowed down by game provider employees(worried I might arrive at end-game and stop subscribing). If the game I play wants me to arrive at end-game slower then they had better give me sufficient mechanisms to qualify myself against the "elitest" solo'ers(tradeskill system or dynamic lore).
It's part human nature. We haven't survived thousands of years by not being competitive/elitist. And anyone who's gone through public school had a front row seat to a bunch of humans competing with one another.
And it's part group/solo advancement balance. Games like COX create a superb balance where solo is viable, yet slightly inefficient (on top of the fact that you can group with anyone regardless of level difference.) Games like WOW create a terrible balance where only the 5 perfect team members have a chance of advancing faster than one knowledgeable solo quester; soloing is basically always superior.
I resubscribed COX today. Been gone over a year. Less than 30 seconds after I'd logged in, I had a group invite from some random person.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To answer the title of this post, ever since the first game was created, and I'm sure that game involved sticks and rocks.
All MMOs have been about being the best, and since I skimmed some posts and it seems to involve finding groups and such, I don't want someone who doesn't know how to play well and efficiently holding me back. So I am one of those people that will group only with people I know are good.
However when I just want to kill some time I'll offer free help to lower level quests that I can help plow through for someone.
Yes, grouping is fundamental to mmos, but why does it have to be with someone "good". Why not have grouping be profitable for the group members regardless of whether anyone is good. It seems as if people think they are being penalized for grouping with someone with sub-par gear. The content was easy ALWAYS, and will remain EASY always because the game won't sell well otherwise, so what is the big deal if it isn't easier than easy because some gear is lacking. Unless someone is playing with the server variables it will always be true.
I thought it was obvious. This elitest BS started about the time when MMO's went mainstream and people that have never played MMOs before think they know wtf they are talking about. They are allways easy to spot
When theme park MMO's started dominating with their shallow gameplay and instant gratification combined with neverending gear grinds? WoW? When it started becoming more about end game than the journey?
While I understand the OP's premise, I can't believe he is trying to pin the blame on soloers. In my experience, raiders and guilds are elitist central in MMO's, next to the elitist developers who cater to them of course.
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with the above posters. I played EQ, DAoC & AO long before the genre became mainstream and the amount of elitist behavior was just as rampant back then as it is now. As a matter of fact, it was Verant and then SOE that allowed guilds to block raid content from other guilds, who allowed kill stealing and so forth and was the first MMO company that had to eventually create a "Play Nice" policy to police it's player base.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
It's part human nature. We haven't survived thousands of years by not being competitive/elitist. And anyone who's gone through public school had a front row seat to a bunch of humans competing with one another.
No, it's part of teen nature. The requirements of social acceptance and need to model on peers is very much a young persons necessity. I don't need to spread my sperm anymore or copy others to learn how to behave. I tolerate close proximity with others out of economic necessity, which does not require social scrutiny, only a record of proven compentancy in my work.
While I understand the OP's premise, I can't believe he is trying to pin the blame on soloers. In my experience, raiders and guilds are elitist central in MMO's, next to the elitist developers who cater to them of course.
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
While I understand the OP's premise, I can't believe he is trying to pin the blame on soloers. In my experience, raiders and guilds are elitist central in MMO's, next to the elitist developers who cater to them of course. I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with the above posters. I played EQ, DAoC & AO long before the genre became mainstream and the amount of elitist behavior was just as rampant back then as it is now.
I am not attempting to pin the blame on solo'ers. If it is the desire of the gamer to arrive at the end-game in the least amount of time then in many cases the solo'er would be foolish not to solo. I congratulate people on making intelligent decisions. Whether they choose to play one way or another is another discussion. I am asking a question about why I must solo in order to feel that I am making the best use of my game time, even the least skilled newbie should only have a null effect on my efficiency rather than a negative impact(unless of course the person is intentionally pulling mass amounts of mobiles).
While I understand the OP's premise, I can't believe he is trying to pin the blame on soloers. In my experience, raiders and guilds are elitist central in MMO's, next to the elitist developers who cater to them of course.
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
Uh huh, just like in real life, people who are solo tend to behave better than those in groups. It's called Mob Mentality and is a factual phenomena. There are always exception to this rule, but any time you get large numbers of people together in a competitive atmosphere, such as raiding, you will find the lion's share of misbehavior.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
While I understand the OP's premise, I can't believe he is trying to pin the blame on soloers. In my experience, raiders and guilds are elitist central in MMO's, next to the elitist developers who cater to them of course.
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
Uh huh, just like in real life, people who are solo tend to behave better than those in groups. It's called Mob Mentality and is a factual phenomena. There are always exception to this rule, but any time you get large numbers of people together in a competitive atmosphere, such as raiding, you will find the lion's share of misbehavior.
I blame the taskmasters who perpetually attempt to make the people believe that congregation is a recipe for disaster. Of course, it is a deception meant to keep people working instead of going to visit their friends. In short, congregation can be either beneficial or malicious depending on the mood of the people. Another reason I am thankful to be amongst a well-fed moderately employed civilization.
While I understand the OP's premise, I can't believe he is trying to pin the blame on soloers. In my experience, raiders and guilds are elitist central in MMO's, next to the elitist developers who cater to them of course.
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
Uh huh, just like in real life, people who are solo tend to behave better than those in groups. It's called Mob Mentality and is a factual phenomena. There are always exception to this rule, but any time you get large numbers of people together in a competitive atmosphere, such as raiding, you will find the lion's share of misbehavior.
You know, real life really isn't a good example. People who solo are as likely to be asshats in real life as people who are in a group. Just because people are in a group doesn't mean they're a group of mobsters ready to gang bang you...
So, yeah, soloists are just as guilt as group players are when there are elitists.
I dont know when things became like this but it is annoying. I play WoW. I have a lvl 80 and it is a pain to try to find a group that will let me play with them. It is nearly impossible for me to get into a raid group. Just because I don't have the achievement I can't go. If ppl would just take a minute or two and explain things it would be fine. But it seems no one likes to help other ppl learn about the game.
When theme park MMO's started dominating with their shallow gameplay and instant gratification combined with neverending gear grinds? WoW? When it started becoming more about end game than the journey? This genre is fucked up right now.
i think the thing that bugged me most about WoW was the fact that for whatever reson every one had the same requirements. Example:
I was a hunter. when going into a raid...
you had to be 70,
you had to be spec'd with the 60/20/0 (if I remember right thats what it was)
you had to use the shot rotation macro
you had to have the specific gun
you had to use the certain shot
and in the end, them trying to be more "elite" it turned the whole game into a cookie cutter. ANY level 70 hunter that was serous about raiding had the exact same gear, the exact same macro, the exact same skill tree.....
So in the end, the more "freedom" and "options" you get I think the less elitism you have..
When theme park MMO's started dominating with their shallow gameplay and instant gratification combined with neverending gear grinds? WoW? When it started becoming more about end game than the journey? This genre is fucked up right now.
Agree 100%^^^
So you agree that the old shallow game play and slow gratification combined with never ending gear grinds was better?
Cause I played those games too and that is bullshit.
When theme park MMO's started dominating with their shallow gameplay and instant gratification combined with neverending gear grinds? WoW? When it started becoming more about end game than the journey? This genre is fucked up right now.
Agree 100%^^^
So you agree that the old shallow game play and slow gratification combined with never ending gear grinds was better?
Cause I played those games too and that is bullshit.
How on earth did you deduct that I was agreeing that it was better?
When theme park MMO's started dominating with their shallow gameplay and instant gratification combined with neverending gear grinds? WoW? When it started becoming more about end game than the journey? This genre is fucked up right now.
Agree 100%^^^
So you agree that the old shallow game play and slow gratification combined with never ending gear grinds was better?
Cause I played those games too and that is bullshit.
How on earth did you deduct that I was agreeing that it was better?
"This genre is fucked up right now."
"Agree 100%^^^"
edit: I guess i could be wrong if you think the time before was even more "fucked up".
When theme park MMO's started dominating with their shallow gameplay and instant gratification combined with neverending gear grinds? WoW? When it started becoming more about end game than the journey? This genre is fucked up right now.
Agree 100%^^^
So you agree that the old shallow game play and slow gratification combined with never ending gear grinds was better?
Cause I played those games too and that is bullshit.
How on earth did you deduct that I was agreeing that it was better?
"This genre is fucked up right now."
"Agree 100%^^^"
edit: I guess i could be wrong if you think the time before was even more "fucked up".
Again you don't make sense. I do agree the genre right now is messed up. where did you get the whole "the time before was messed up" part?
It occured on the 24th of April 2000..the release date of Everquest - The Ruins of Kunark.
Everquest prior to this had most of its popualtion including casuals hitting the max level cap..many had reached this months before ...there were waiting lists for the very limited endgame content and high level areas you could wait 6 hours just to get into a group in lower GuK and every spawn had to be fought for and had long respawn rates if you didnt kill the dragon this week its because someone else beat you to it..
as Kunark rolled into town it went even further..now you needed access keys to even enter elite areas keys that required week long camps to get person by person..this is where guilds were forced to become super selective on who they invited and the community element in MMOs broke down the most..
People quote Wow so far in this topic as being responsbile but Wow is just a very shrewd version of super elite EQ 1..accessible to the mass market..with a gradual carefully constructed drip feed of achievement...
Because the EQ/Wow form of MMOs (and not every MMO was anything like them in those days) became the dominant and popular MMO format..here we are..
----
Also note there is a kind of cycle in most MMOs..
1/ initial newbie optimism you dont mind who you spend time with and everything is new and novel..you make mistakes but thats half the fun
2/ you no longer making many mistakes and having to repeat content more than early on to get items you shinies you want..you still group with others but your clique of friends is becoming established now..
3/ you are now playing regular and getting less drip feed success per hour spent..the dimishing returns mean you want to maximise the time you play getting stuff YOU want ..the game is becoming a chore really and you seen it all before you are a know it all..you dont want to waste time with newbies if possible..the only fun you now get is your next item fix..the getting it part is boring.
Comments
You must not have paid that much attention over the years then. In EQ's prime, the 99% of the elitists belonged to the top end guilds of the servers and you usually never saw them due to their guild raiding 24/7. The other 1% were the ones who thought that the only good group was built like a group in a raid, and that if you didn't follow their rules or their command you were kicked.
Finding a group in WoW is easy towards the lower levels, but as you start getting to the end game, getting a PUG can be a nightmare. There were many times when I was in Heroic PUGs that took forever to get the people because the leader only wanted people with certain gear or certain talents. Which I could never understand why someone would do that seeing as how the gear that would drop in said Heroic would benefit the person they decided not to invite, by being upgrades for them so that they would be more effective in a Heroic. Raids are even worse due to the fact that besides having the gear and specific talents, most of the people for PUG raids want the ones to join to know all the battles of said raid. Now this isn't a bad thing mind you, but many very skilled players that have the gear and are wanting to do said raid to get better gear, and know the raid are turned away just because they never been to that particular raid. (This I know from experience, due to belonging to a guild that didn't have the manpower to raid Naxx.)
But, atleast WoW isn't as bad about it as FFXI. I'm sorry, but a game that has people that won't give you a chance because you don't have the right sub-job is just unbelievable. A friend of mine told me about his experiences as a Nin/Blk Mg. The people didn't want to invite him just because their healer would actually have to get off their butts and heal. He'd barely get hit, and had dps/aggro out the yin-yang. When he DID get hit however it would do a nice chunck of health, but that was if he was hit which was next to never.
The main point the OP is trying to get at, is that most people are saying that unless you have certain specific qualifications (gear, knowledge of said instance, achievements, talents, etc.), that you won't be worth having in a group because then the group wouldn't clear the dungeon as fast. Who cares about clearing a dungeon fast seeing as how at end-game in WoW there is a lock-out timer on the dungeon. That just takes away from the experience of the place you are at. That being said, this mindset is one reason why I quit playing WoW (other than the fact that I am completely burned out).
Currently playing EverQuest 2
it happened when people stopped caring about playing together for fun and started focusing more on competition to be the best. in order to be the best, you have to surround yourself with players who you also deem to be some of the best. so if you dont have "x" this or "x " that, you aren't one of the best. therefore you arent "leet" enough to play with the elite.
btw on the FFXI thing, when it comes to elite-ismes, it doesn't get any worse than that game. i pray theres still hope for FFXIV.
As layers of complexity are added onto the game, you "need" certain attributes in order to maximize your contribution to the group because the players forming these groups want loot farming robots to help them obtain junk, not fellow group members.
When I left WoW, my 80 mage would get tells quite frequently asking me what my spell power or DPS was because they "needed a good mage in the guild (or group)" and I would always tell them, "Oh, it's about 780. I'm mostly Spirit." Solved that problem in a hurry. I have no time for that "will check Armory" shit.
---
I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave.
To answer the title of this post, ever since the first game was created, and I'm sure that game involved sticks and rocks.
All MMOs have been about being the best, and since I skimmed some posts and it seems to involve finding groups and such, I don't want someone who doesn't know how to play well and efficiently holding me back. So I am one of those people that will group only with people I know are good.
However when I just want to kill some time I'll offer free help to lower level quests that I can help plow through for someone.
In my opinion, an "elite" is different depending on what the game style is:
1. Solo: Elites are people who try to beat the game the quickest and reach max level cap. They are usually the ones that use guides.
2. Casual Group: Elites are people that will kick you out of a group if you are not level "so and so" or don't have a specific skill. Raid parties are like this in these types of games.
3. Hardcore Group: Elites are people that will refuse you access to a group because you don't have the specific skills or aren't a particular level. However, this is done because the group may be going someplace where failure and dying has extreme consequences, so the group really needs to be in top shape or failure is imminent.
Now, this is just my opinion, but many of you who bag on FF XI being too elite don't exactly realize what a hardcore group game is, and why choosing the right people for a group was important. Plus, even with that sort of mentality, I can say that FF XI had the nicest community I've ever seen in an mmorpg. They were helpful, asshats were destroyed quickly in the game (word gets around, people refuse to party with you), and basically all the positives of harsh environment showed (death penalties were severe in the game, one more reason why groups made sure they had all roles set).
I've found that finding a group for levelling purposes is always a lot tougher in games where grinding quests is the most efficient, or most common way to level. Most people are quite selfish. That's nothing new, but it means they are not willing to group up if they don't have common goals with the rest of the group. If a game is based around questing for xp, it is likely to have a ton of unique quests, and finding people in your level range that have the exact same quests at the exact same stages as you, is almost impossible. If, in addition, the game is solo-friendly, it is less of a hassle to just solo than going through the pains of finding a group.
Compare that to games where most xp comes directly from the kills. Grouping up means you can kill tougher mobs (At least if the game doesn't have silly, artificial restrictions that make mobs much higher level than you invulnerable to your attacks), and levelling in a group is as fast as, or faster than levelling alone even if you don't get an ideal group. Someone leaves? Get a new member. Content gets too easy or too hard with current group? Change hunting grounds. Grinding mobs may be even more tedious than grinding quests, but at least it's easier to make it a social experience.
Of course, the "quest grinding" games also have group-only content, but this can be avoided, and is usually done for gear rather than xp. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, but it does create groups that tend to break up the second one person gets what he wants.
As for elitist attitudes in general, I think those have always been there. It just tends to be more prevalent among players doing endgame PVE content. With that in mind, there's obviously going to be a huge difference between a game where 5% of the population is involved in engame PVE, and one where more than 80% are. I say PVE, not because PVE focused players are more elitist than PVP focused players, but because it's easier to back up bragging with items from PVE content than achievements in PVP.
It's part human nature. We haven't survived thousands of years by not being competitive/elitist. And anyone who's gone through public school had a front row seat to a bunch of humans competing with one another.
And it's part group/solo advancement balance. Games like COX create a superb balance where solo is viable, yet slightly inefficient (on top of the fact that you can group with anyone regardless of level difference.) Games like WOW create a terrible balance where only the 5 perfect team members have a chance of advancing faster than one knowledgeable solo quester; soloing is basically always superior.
I resubscribed COX today. Been gone over a year. Less than 30 seconds after I'd logged in, I had a group invite from some random person.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes, grouping is fundamental to mmos, but why does it have to be with someone "good". Why not have grouping be profitable for the group members regardless of whether anyone is good. It seems as if people think they are being penalized for grouping with someone with sub-par gear. The content was easy ALWAYS, and will remain EASY always because the game won't sell well otherwise, so what is the big deal if it isn't easier than easy because some gear is lacking. Unless someone is playing with the server variables it will always be true.
I thought it was obvious. This elitest BS started about the time when MMO's went mainstream and people that have never played MMOs before think they know wtf they are talking about. They are allways easy to spot
When theme park MMO's started dominating with their shallow gameplay and instant gratification combined with neverending gear grinds? WoW? When it started becoming more about end game than the journey?
This genre is fucked up right now.
While I understand the OP's premise, I can't believe he is trying to pin the blame on soloers. In my experience, raiders and guilds are elitist central in MMO's, next to the elitist developers who cater to them of course.
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with the above posters. I played EQ, DAoC & AO long before the genre became mainstream and the amount of elitist behavior was just as rampant back then as it is now. As a matter of fact, it was Verant and then SOE that allowed guilds to block raid content from other guilds, who allowed kill stealing and so forth and was the first MMO company that had to eventually create a "Play Nice" policy to police it's player base.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
It's part human nature. We haven't survived thousands of years by not being competitive/elitist. And anyone who's gone through public school had a front row seat to a bunch of humans competing with one another.
No, it's part of teen nature. The requirements of social acceptance and need to model on peers is very much a young persons necessity. I don't need to spread my sperm anymore or copy others to learn how to behave. I tolerate close proximity with others out of economic necessity, which does not require social scrutiny, only a record of proven compentancy in my work.
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
I am not attempting to pin the blame on solo'ers. If it is the desire of the gamer to arrive at the end-game in the least amount of time then in many cases the solo'er would be foolish not to solo. I congratulate people on making intelligent decisions. Whether they choose to play one way or another is another discussion. I am asking a question about why I must solo in order to feel that I am making the best use of my game time, even the least skilled newbie should only have a null effect on my efficiency rather than a negative impact(unless of course the person is intentionally pulling mass amounts of mobiles).
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
Uh huh, just like in real life, people who are solo tend to behave better than those in groups. It's called Mob Mentality and is a factual phenomena. There are always exception to this rule, but any time you get large numbers of people together in a competitive atmosphere, such as raiding, you will find the lion's share of misbehavior.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
Uh huh, just like in real life, people who are solo tend to behave better than those in groups. It's called Mob Mentality and is a factual phenomena. There are always exception to this rule, but any time you get large numbers of people together in a competitive atmosphere, such as raiding, you will find the lion's share of misbehavior.
I blame the taskmasters who perpetually attempt to make the people believe that congregation is a recipe for disaster. Of course, it is a deception meant to keep people working instead of going to visit their friends. In short, congregation can be either beneficial or malicious depending on the mood of the people. Another reason I am thankful to be amongst a well-fed moderately employed civilization.
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
Uh huh, just like in real life, people who are solo tend to behave better than those in groups. It's called Mob Mentality and is a factual phenomena. There are always exception to this rule, but any time you get large numbers of people together in a competitive atmosphere, such as raiding, you will find the lion's share of misbehavior.
You know, real life really isn't a good example. People who solo are as likely to be asshats in real life as people who are in a group. Just because people are in a group doesn't mean they're a group of mobsters ready to gang bang you...
So, yeah, soloists are just as guilt as group players are when there are elitists.
I dont know when things became like this but it is annoying. I play WoW. I have a lvl 80 and it is a pain to try to find a group that will let me play with them. It is nearly impossible for me to get into a raid group. Just because I don't have the achievement I can't go. If ppl would just take a minute or two and explain things it would be fine. But it seems no one likes to help other ppl learn about the game.
Mr. Bagguns
Agree 100%^^^
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i think the thing that bugged me most about WoW was the fact that for whatever reson every one had the same requirements. Example:
I was a hunter. when going into a raid...
you had to be 70,
you had to be spec'd with the 60/20/0 (if I remember right thats what it was)
you had to use the shot rotation macro
you had to have the specific gun
you had to use the certain shot
and in the end, them trying to be more "elite" it turned the whole game into a cookie cutter. ANY level 70 hunter that was serous about raiding had the exact same gear, the exact same macro, the exact same skill tree.....
So in the end, the more "freedom" and "options" you get I think the less elitism you have..
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Agree 100%^^^
So you agree that the old shallow game play and slow gratification combined with never ending gear grinds was better?
Cause I played those games too and that is bullshit.
Agree 100%^^^
So you agree that the old shallow game play and slow gratification combined with never ending gear grinds was better?
Cause I played those games too and that is bullshit.
How on earth did you deduct that I was agreeing that it was better?
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Agree 100%^^^
So you agree that the old shallow game play and slow gratification combined with never ending gear grinds was better?
Cause I played those games too and that is bullshit.
How on earth did you deduct that I was agreeing that it was better?
"This genre is fucked up right now."
"Agree 100%^^^"
edit: I guess i could be wrong if you think the time before was even more "fucked up".
Agree 100%^^^
So you agree that the old shallow game play and slow gratification combined with never ending gear grinds was better?
Cause I played those games too and that is bullshit.
How on earth did you deduct that I was agreeing that it was better?
"This genre is fucked up right now."
"Agree 100%^^^"
edit: I guess i could be wrong if you think the time before was even more "fucked up".
Again you don't make sense. I do agree the genre right now is messed up. where did you get the whole "the time before was messed up" part?
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It occured on the 24th of April 2000..the release date of Everquest - The Ruins of Kunark.
Everquest prior to this had most of its popualtion including casuals hitting the max level cap..many had reached this months before ...there were waiting lists for the very limited endgame content and high level areas you could wait 6 hours just to get into a group in lower GuK and every spawn had to be fought for and had long respawn rates if you didnt kill the dragon this week its because someone else beat you to it..
as Kunark rolled into town it went even further..now you needed access keys to even enter elite areas keys that required week long camps to get person by person..this is where guilds were forced to become super selective on who they invited and the community element in MMOs broke down the most..
People quote Wow so far in this topic as being responsbile but Wow is just a very shrewd version of super elite EQ 1..accessible to the mass market..with a gradual carefully constructed drip feed of achievement...
Because the EQ/Wow form of MMOs (and not every MMO was anything like them in those days) became the dominant and popular MMO format..here we are..
----
Also note there is a kind of cycle in most MMOs..
1/ initial newbie optimism you dont mind who you spend time with and everything is new and novel..you make mistakes but thats half the fun
2/ you no longer making many mistakes and having to repeat content more than early on to get items you shinies you want..you still group with others but your clique of friends is becoming established now..
3/ you are now playing regular and getting less drip feed success per hour spent..the dimishing returns mean you want to maximise the time you play getting stuff YOU want ..the game is becoming a chore really and you seen it all before you are a know it all..you dont want to waste time with newbies if possible..the only fun you now get is your next item fix..the getting it part is boring.
4/ you are an addicted elitest..enjoy