I'd love to agree with the OP but the fact for me remains that the last 5+ years of single player RPGs have either been terrible or short lived. About the only stand outs are Mass Effect and Fallout 3. ME has zero replay value since the main story is on rails and the rest of pointless. F3 is tedious after a while and despite being open ended the world is too one zonish to be played like an MMO for any period of time. So we bounce from MMO to MMO because despite the quests being mostly blah the worlds and combat are interesting. The quests have always been more about pointing you at content than actual oh ah quality writing. But then to be fair how many of us read it? If I wanted to read a book, I'd read a book. What I want is to see some great worlds and crush some heads. And no not every MMO even gets that much right
I find it amusing that the MMORPG genre sees more subscribers than ever currently, yet we have doom and gloom people predicting some 1980s downfall of the genre.
I think Blizzard has more subscribers than ever.
Take away WoW, and nothing has really changed all that much.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Damn right. I love the Elder Scrolls games, I've made or worked on probably half a dozen mods for them, I'm a regular at the official forums, and I've played the crap out of them. In other words, I'm a hardcore Elder Scrolls player, not a casual one.
In Oblivion, the entire world was ridiculously level scaled (that's the official term for what you're referring to). Are you running around in glass armor using Daedric weapons? So is every single bandit in the game. Are you level 15 and exploring a ruined fort? Guess what? Every single container in that fort has the exact same random loot tables as every other container in every other fort in the game.
Generic-ness, random generation and no incentive whatsoever to explore. Yay!
What you said is the absolute truth about Oblivion.
I find it amusing that the MMORPG genre sees more subscribers than ever currently, yet we have doom and gloom people predicting some 1980s downfall of the genre.
It wouldn't necessarily be accurate to equate the number of subscriptions with success of the genre. Obviously, yes, the number of subscriptions indictates an audience for the genre, but a far more accurate indicator would be how long people stay with a given subscription (which I have no info on). If people are bouncing around from game to game there is going to be a problem if the industry doesn't step up to address it.
Personally I think the current trend in mmo's is leading to an eventual migration to console where they'll be financially successful but will bear little resemblance to what we now recognize mmo's to be.
I think however the hunger is there and I do think that eventually the industry will get it right before the audience gives up, but on a much smaller scale than what the industry expected based on the curve-wrecking WoW.
I played both Morrowind (never finished maybe ill go back) and Obivion (just started about a week ago).....so far I've been so captivated by the story line that loot has been a non concern for me. I realize that eventually the story line may wear off and some of these aforementioned blemishes may arise but I hope my point doesn't get lost. MMO's have been using the complexity of the MMO world as an excuse to release drab games with little story telling. now im off to look up mods for Oblivion lol
Well, Oblivion´s storyline is not exactly really expressive.
The story is more interesting in the Shivering Isles expansion.
You can find deeper storylines in games like: The Witcher ,Mafia ,Planescape Torment ,Baldur´s gate ,Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines ,Xenogears ,all Legacy of Kain series. (not all these games are rpgs)etc
Even the storyline behind places like Nektropos Castle and the lore behind some dungeons in EQ2 are more expressive than Oblivion´s main story, to tell the truth Oblivion´s main story is weak if you compare with most westerns and easters RPGs
Yes MMORPGs can improve for sure, but single player RPGs also have a lot of issues, especially Oblivion.
Compare Oblivion with Morrowind, compare Infinite Undiscovery with some of the old Final Fantasy classics, compare Neverwinter Nights 2 with Planescape Torment or Baldur´s Gate...the decadence of Single Player RPGS is even worse than the decadence of MMORPGs.
I agree with most of what you (the OP) are saying, but a few points I don't:
-Forced First Person Perspective Helps Immersion: Only true if done right. Non-forced helps immersion too, if it's done right. Everquest did first person right. Pitching camera and you can see yourself swinging your weapons. It looked and felt like you were fighting. (Honestly I like the combat sounds too, I think EQ's combat actually sounds painful, instead of hollow like most nowadays). Oblivion does it right for the same reasons Everquest did. Most newer games, including WoW, fail epically at it, because you have a motionless camera and can't see your weapons. You get a generic spark that always hits the exact same point on the enemy, and that's it. It's boring as crap. And crap is pretty boring. And smelly.
-MMOs today fail at story telling: Again, true for most, but there are MMOs out there with good stories. FFXI, while difficult to progress through, has a great story. LoTRO has several great stories. Everquest 2 desperately needs an overarching story, but the lore of Everquest is there, so it wins by association Guild Wars (especially Prophecies) has a great story. Aion has the background lore to make a great story, but I haven't done enough missions yet to test that area. The epic storyline of DAoC (i.e., the class quests) and the Darkness Rising story is decent as well. They're out there. You just have to spend a little time sifting through all the steaming piles of crap.
Everything else though, I agree. MMOs are becoming too shallow. Too easy. Too cookie-cutter. But then, 99% of the non-WoW community (and some of the WoW community) has said and / or agreed with these points already. Game developers just can't hear the players' complaints / suggestions over the "Cha-Ching" of the money raining from the sky in their thick, deluded skulls. It'll take a titan as big as WoW with better, *different*, more challenging, and compelling stories and mechanics to snap them out of it. And then we'll have an army of cookie-cutters styled after the new titan. It's a vicious cycle, really.
edit: small edits for clarity.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
I played both Morrowind (never finished maybe ill go back) and Obivion (just started about a week ago).....so far I've been so captivated by the story line that loot has been a non concern for me. I realize that eventually the story line may wear off and some of these aforementioned blemishes may arise but I hope my point doesn't get lost. MMO's have been using the complexity of the MMO world as an excuse to release drab games with little story telling. now im off to look up mods for Oblivion lol
Morrowind is actually the game that got me into mmorpg's. I remember the first time I tried it I had left the smal tutorial area and decided to practice swinging a weapon. I accidentally hit an npc and was attacked and wasted in seconds. I put it down for several months afterwards as I really wasn't interested in starting a new game.
The second time I tried it and received the message (after the tutorial) "well, good luck, there is a store up on the left and have at it" (paraphrased) is when I knew that I was in for somethign special. When I discovered my first cave off in the distance and found a whole underground world (well, just a cave instance) I knew I was hooked.
Played it for 2 years.
Now I've been playing oblivion since it was released. I use many mods, mostly just adding items. However I have started downloading highly rated quest mods.
They both have their strengths and weaknesses.
As for this thread, I have to admit that I was highly dissapointed in learning that mmorpg's were not like morrowind. Of course, my first was lineage 2. I actually love the game but it's about "somethign else".
I've searched for a game like an online morrowind but never found anything close. No matter, I have morrowind, oblivion and of course the new elder scrolls game which they are working on, (no info on it, just allusions to it) to give me my fix.
Thing is, I don't believe mmorpg's can give the same sort of experience.
for one thing you have players screaming for no instances, open world, but that just junks it all up. It's not fun to show up at a story point and see people camping a named mob. or to be "alone" looknig for a quest objective and having people running by saying "heya". or if it's a pvp game just attacking you.
I don't believe open worlds are conducive to the same sort of story experience.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter You read my mind. I've been saying for a while now that MMOs are going to hit the same kind of die-off that video games had in the early '80s. Players are starting to show reluctance to buy garbage.
Yep, I feel the same way, and have stated as much on this forum many times. Trends in the MMORPG genre are starting to mirror the events that caused the 1980s video game crash (i.e., shovel a bunch of garbage against the wall and see what sticks).
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Originally posted by Draco91 -Forced First Person Perspective Helps Immersion: Only true if done right.
It's unnecessary to point out that "doing things poorly is bad."
Forced 1st Person means games where you're always in 1st person, with the possible exceptions of Exhibition (VATS) or Vanity camera angles (basically something you can't walk around with, possibly limited to the noncombat areas of the game.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I recall back in the days when UO and EQ were new, and I was loving single playing RPGs, like back then Ultima VII and the like. Someone showed it to me. "Ok... you collect 10 boars? Seriously? Whoa! And you spent all your time with that!" I could not believe it. Somehow I hoped MMos would become more, and for a while to social aspect in a game like SWG carried me along. But today MMOs are soloers heavens, the social aspect is goners and quests are still "fetch me 20 of X".
What a joke.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'll agree there, something died somewhere in mmo's. I remember when I enjoyed grouping with people, but sence those days I find myself soloing more and more. Mainly cause when I do group I hear some 12 year old on vent, and some guy whoes drunk, and the rest argue on how to do something. I miss the olden days, In many ways the co-op console games are better, now if they make a Co-op rpg that is like oblivion for one of the newer systems I may just kiss mmo's goodbye forever.
Juat wait until Borderlands (4 player co-op) Dragon Age: Origins (single player) release. These 2 games alone will be far superior than any mmo this year and possibly until the end of next year. MMOs fail because most devs count that monthly fee before they even consider being passionate about making a great mmo. Luckily we have Blizzard, Arenanet and Bioware to give is great gaming experiences. The rest always seem to be way behind times and counting their money.
Amen brother! The only three companies that seem to value a polished game at release. Although we will see how SW:TOR fares. Atleast they have the right mentality.
Anyone who says MMOs, in general, are better in quality than SP/CO-OP RPGs is mad.
It is about having that precious 50h of content - a sweet juice if you will. Now mix the juice with a lot of water so the player will spend more time drinking your juice and paying subscription. Instead of killing just 5 rats - kill 50 rats. Instead of fast travel - you have to walk or use a mount, which you have to grind first... If you can't taste the juice, it's not worth drinking. That is why subscription is inherently bad for the games.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Juat wait until Borderlands (4 player co-op) Dragon Age: Origins (single player) release. These 2 games alone will be far superior than any mmo this year and possibly until the end of next year. MMOs fail because most devs count that monthly fee before they even consider being passionate about making a great mmo. Luckily we have Blizzard, Arenanet and Bioware to give is great gaming experiences. The rest always seem to be way behind times and counting their money.
Both the games you mention have promise but for me they are lacking something. Their are more RPG coming in the next two months that could and could be better than the two above games you mention.
We have a choice of several RPG that are gracing our PC/Consoles starting from this sept 09.
First RPG on the list is Dragon Age Origins..
In case some of you have been sleeping under a rock, DAO is one of BioWare other little projects that they have been working on for a while. Think of Baldur's Gate and you have DAO which is the spiritual successor to that great game.
Not many of you in the US would of heard of this game which is being made by the same dev team that bought us in Europe(it was released in NA as well) that fantastic RPG series called Gothic by Piranha Bytes.
Do not mistake this game for the up and coming Gothic 4 An Arcarnia Tale RPG which is being made by a different dev team called Spellbound and produced by JoWood.
Risen is a whole new adventure which does not feature your normal RPG races,meaning no Elves or Dwarfs. This RPG really looks like it will be a winner and bring some fresh new races to the fantasy RPG fold.
Well, what can i say about this series of RPG,plenty i guess ,having played all three.
As i mentioned in my Risen preview, don't mistake these devs with the original Gothic team,they are now the Risen DeepSilver Dev team.
A bit of history about the Gothic RPG. First off they are great free roaming RPG that are akin to Morrowind and Oblivion,meaning "Sandbox". Some would say you either love em or hate them mainly due to the controls and the combat system,i for one loved it.
Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 "Night Of The Raven" are probably the best out of the 3 because Gothic 3 was riddled with bugs but still a great game if you could look beyond the bugs.
Many of the Gothic fans think that JoWood will not be able to capture the true essence of the original Gothic games,meaning the Gothic feel and world. I am prepared to give them a chance but i will be giving Risen my full attention
The latest E3 vid has many people talking,whether good or bad we will have to see.
I will be honest and say that i have not played these RPG but have been following this latest instalment with interest. This game is set in an seamless open world and covers the story of a dragon slayer.
Their are some good twist to this RPG ,like taking the dragon form and flying to places that can't be reached by your human form.
I have the Enhanced edition of "The Witcher" which was released after the original game. It was practically bug free and for me a great mature RPG with some nice mature touches.
You either love it or hate is all i can say really. Now they are bringing this game to the console market with better combat and story.
So as you can see from the list we have plenty to keep us busy until a good mmorpg comes out. I am giving up mmorpg for a while because they don't give me any satisfaction at the moment.
Oh and Gothic 2 "The Night Of The Raven" kicks Oblivions ass all over the pitch. The mods for Oblivion is what has kept the game alive,the actual game it's self is crap.
If you think Oblivion is a good RPG, you should try other solid RPG titles like Far Cry or Bioshock.
I have exactly different opinion, single player RPG since Vampire Bloodlines went downhill horribly. Mass Effect is an RPG? It's a bloody shooter with a few dialogues, Neverwinter Nights 2? Come on, Oblivion? FPS Aim, quest tracker, instant travel, level scale -- that doesn't make an RPG, that makes a shooter.
The last good RPG I can think of was Wizardry 8 and Baldur's Gate. Single RPG genre is dying more than anything. People keep calling these shooters with a bits of character customization roleplaying games, but they aren't.
If you think Oblivion is a good RPG, you should try other solid RPG titles like Far Cry or Bioshock. I have exactly different opinion, single player RPG since Vampire Bloodlines went downhill horribly. Mass Effect is an RPG? It's a bloody shooter with a few dialogues, Neverwinter Nights 2? Come on, Oblivion? FPS Aim, quest tracker, instant travel, level scale -- that doesn't make an RPG, that makes a shooter. The last good RPG I can think of was Wizardry 8 and Baldur's Gate. Single RPG genre is dying more than anything. People keep calling these shooters with a bits of character customization roleplaying games, but they aren't.
What you really mean is, the last good RPG THAT you played were Wizardry 8 and Baldur's Gate. Notice that i put the word "THAT" in caps,it's just me making a point about what RPG you think are good.
I played both the above games and many more but for me GOTHIC 1 and Gothic 2 "Night of the raven" kick both the above mentioned games all over the place,and they are less than 10 years old.
I did Billy I did. Gothic 2 was released in 2002 if I'm not mistaken (around the time Wizardry 8 was released). It was solid and it would be great if Gothic 3 would have the same quality. It didn't. And it's exactly what I was talking about. Single player RPG went downhill -> Bioware which had some great titles are now making shooters, Bathesda that was doing great sandbox rpg's are now putting level scale, instant travel, quest trackers, and more focus on FPS combat aiming into their games, SSI & westwood are dead for some time (old school AD&D dungeons), Sir-Tech is dead (wizardry series), 3do is dead (might and magic series), Troika is dead (greyhawk, arcanum, fallout 1-2) please remind me some more.
Now we get FPS aiming, lots of action, lots of in-game cut scenes and videos, It's an rpg for children or a shooter for adults. But there're no RPGs for adults nowadays.
I did Billy I did. Gothic 2 was released in 2002 if I'm not mistaken (around the time Wizardry 8 was released). It was solid and it would be great if Gothic 3 would have the same quality. It didn't. And it's exactly what I was talking about. Single player RPG went downhill -> Bioware which had some great titles are now making shooters, Bathesda that was doing great sandbox rpg's are now putting level scale, instant travel, quest trackers, and more focus on FPS combat aiming into their games, SSI & westwood are dead for some time (old school AD&D dungeons), Sir-Tech is dead (wizardry series), 3do is dead (might and magic series), Troika is dead (greyhawk, arcanum, fallout 1-2) please remind me some more. Now we get FPS aiming, lots of action, lots of in-game cut scenes and videos, It's an rpg for children or a shooter for adults. But there're no RPGs for adults nowadays.
First off vanilla oblivion is / was terrible. Thankfully there are plenty of mods found available. Saying they drasticly improve the game is an understatement.
There are so many great mods for oblivion that can completely transform the game into something great, at minimium i strongly suggest at least an overhaul mod like OOO or Fran's. MMM, Warcry and Deadly Reflex are all 3 great options but the FCOM is unrivaled.
I prefer Fran's+MMM+Midas Magic Spells of Aurum+Supreme Magicka and around 30 other minor mods. Natural Environments is also a must have. Make sure you slow your leveling speed down 50% otherwise you'll level to fast with fran's+mmm.
Originally posted by Draco91 -Forced First Person Perspective Helps Immersion: Only true if done right.
It's unnecessary to point out that "doing things poorly is bad."
Forced 1st Person means games where you're always in 1st person, with the possible exceptions of Exhibition (VATS) or Vanity camera angles (basically something you can't walk around with, possibly limited to the noncombat areas of the game.)
I know what forced first person is and my point was that, if done right, first person view doesn't even have to be forced to increase immersion. EQ first person wasn't forced, but it helped with immersion. I was saying much more than "doing things poorly is bad."
I don't know of any MMOs whatsoever that ever FORCED first person. Heck, even Oblivion (I know it isn't an MMO, but it's the OP's example of what should be) doesn't FORCE it. You can play Oblivion in third person. It just sucks that way.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
Oblivion is not even close as being a great RPG. It's not a bad game but if an mmo similar to oblivion comes out, then I see no point in paying for that.
Originally posted by Draco91 I know what forced first person is and my point was that, if done right, first person view doesn't even have to be forced to increase immersion. EQ first person wasn't forced, but it helped with immersion. I was saying much more than "doing things poorly is bad." I don't know of any MMOs whatsoever that ever FORCED first person. Heck, even Oblivion (I know it isn't an MMO, but it's the OP's example of what should be) doesn't FORCE it. You can play Oblivion in third person. It just sucks that way.
Well my point (which admittedly I didn't describe well) was that games with a focus on 1st person cam will typically put in the effort to really make it awesome - especially if it's the only camera the game has.
The people I worked with who worked on Oblivions admit to a lot of the game's mistakes, including 3rd person cam. Basically without making the animations look right they said it shouldn't have been an option.
The biggest problem with non-forced 1st is that typically 3rd person offers huge tactical advantages and players end up playing with it so they can see over terrain and around walls where their character can't.
Also to be clear I'm not trying to say 1st Person Cam is the best choice for RPGs. It's may be more immersive by a longshot, but 3rd person cam has very strong advantages of its own (hence why we see it in so many games.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Fallout 3 was horrible lol
I think Blizzard has more subscribers than ever.
Take away WoW, and nothing has really changed all that much.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
What you said is the absolute truth about Oblivion.
...
It wouldn't necessarily be accurate to equate the number of subscriptions with success of the genre. Obviously, yes, the number of subscriptions indictates an audience for the genre, but a far more accurate indicator would be how long people stay with a given subscription (which I have no info on). If people are bouncing around from game to game there is going to be a problem if the industry doesn't step up to address it.
Personally I think the current trend in mmo's is leading to an eventual migration to console where they'll be financially successful but will bear little resemblance to what we now recognize mmo's to be.
I think however the hunger is there and I do think that eventually the industry will get it right before the audience gives up, but on a much smaller scale than what the industry expected based on the curve-wrecking WoW.
Well, Oblivion´s storyline is not exactly really expressive.
The story is more interesting in the Shivering Isles expansion.
You can find deeper storylines in games like: The Witcher ,Mafia ,Planescape Torment ,Baldur´s gate ,Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines ,Xenogears ,all Legacy of Kain series. (not all these games are rpgs)etc
Even the storyline behind places like Nektropos Castle and the lore behind some dungeons in EQ2 are more expressive than Oblivion´s main story, to tell the truth Oblivion´s main story is weak if you compare with most westerns and easters RPGs
Yes MMORPGs can improve for sure, but single player RPGs also have a lot of issues, especially Oblivion.
Compare Oblivion with Morrowind, compare Infinite Undiscovery with some of the old Final Fantasy classics, compare Neverwinter Nights 2 with Planescape Torment or Baldur´s Gate...the decadence of Single Player RPGS is even worse than the decadence of MMORPGs.
...
I agree with most of what you (the OP) are saying, but a few points I don't:
-Forced First Person Perspective Helps Immersion: Only true if done right. Non-forced helps immersion too, if it's done right. Everquest did first person right. Pitching camera and you can see yourself swinging your weapons. It looked and felt like you were fighting. (Honestly I like the combat sounds too, I think EQ's combat actually sounds painful, instead of hollow like most nowadays). Oblivion does it right for the same reasons Everquest did. Most newer games, including WoW, fail epically at it, because you have a motionless camera and can't see your weapons. You get a generic spark that always hits the exact same point on the enemy, and that's it. It's boring as crap. And crap is pretty boring. And smelly.
-MMOs today fail at story telling: Again, true for most, but there are MMOs out there with good stories. FFXI, while difficult to progress through, has a great story. LoTRO has several great stories. Everquest 2 desperately needs an overarching story, but the lore of Everquest is there, so it wins by association
Guild Wars (especially Prophecies) has a great story. Aion has the background lore to make a great story, but I haven't done enough missions yet to test that area. The epic storyline of DAoC (i.e., the class quests) and the Darkness Rising story is decent as well. They're out there. You just have to spend a little time sifting through all the steaming piles of crap.
Everything else though, I agree. MMOs are becoming too shallow. Too easy. Too cookie-cutter. But then, 99% of the non-WoW community (and some of the WoW community) has said and / or agreed with these points already. Game developers just can't hear the players' complaints / suggestions over the "Cha-Ching" of the money raining from the sky in their thick, deluded skulls. It'll take a titan as big as WoW with better, *different*, more challenging, and compelling stories and mechanics to snap them out of it. And then we'll have an army of cookie-cutters styled after the new titan. It's a vicious cycle, really.
edit: small edits for clarity.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
The best way to deal with trolls:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ [IGNORE THEM, THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION!]
Morrowind is actually the game that got me into mmorpg's. I remember the first time I tried it I had left the smal tutorial area and decided to practice swinging a weapon. I accidentally hit an npc and was attacked and wasted in seconds. I put it down for several months afterwards as I really wasn't interested in starting a new game.
The second time I tried it and received the message (after the tutorial) "well, good luck, there is a store up on the left and have at it" (paraphrased) is when I knew that I was in for somethign special. When I discovered my first cave off in the distance and found a whole underground world (well, just a cave instance) I knew I was hooked.
Played it for 2 years.
Now I've been playing oblivion since it was released. I use many mods, mostly just adding items. However I have started downloading highly rated quest mods.
They both have their strengths and weaknesses.
As for this thread, I have to admit that I was highly dissapointed in learning that mmorpg's were not like morrowind. Of course, my first was lineage 2. I actually love the game but it's about "somethign else".
I've searched for a game like an online morrowind but never found anything close. No matter, I have morrowind, oblivion and of course the new elder scrolls game which they are working on, (no info on it, just allusions to it) to give me my fix.
Thing is, I don't believe mmorpg's can give the same sort of experience.
for one thing you have players screaming for no instances, open world, but that just junks it all up. It's not fun to show up at a story point and see people camping a named mob. or to be "alone" looknig for a quest objective and having people running by saying "heya". or if it's a pvp game just attacking you.
I don't believe open worlds are conducive to the same sort of story experience.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yep, I feel the same way, and have stated as much on this forum many times. Trends in the MMORPG genre are starting to mirror the events that caused the 1980s video game crash (i.e., shovel a bunch of garbage against the wall and see what sticks).
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
It's unnecessary to point out that "doing things poorly is bad."
Forced 1st Person means games where you're always in 1st person, with the possible exceptions of Exhibition (VATS) or Vanity camera angles (basically something you can't walk around with, possibly limited to the noncombat areas of the game.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
LOTRO has a great cohesive storyline, along with often-interesting quest-line side-stories, as well as really cool instanced quests.
Haha, yes. Good advise OP.
I recall back in the days when UO and EQ were new, and I was loving single playing RPGs, like back then Ultima VII and the like. Someone showed it to me. "Ok... you collect 10 boars? Seriously? Whoa! And you spent all your time with that!" I could not believe it. Somehow I hoped MMos would become more, and for a while to social aspect in a game like SWG carried me along. But today MMOs are soloers heavens, the social aspect is goners and quests are still "fetch me 20 of X".
What a joke.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'll agree there, something died somewhere in mmo's. I remember when I enjoyed grouping with people, but sence those days I find myself soloing more and more. Mainly cause when I do group I hear some 12 year old on vent, and some guy whoes drunk, and the rest argue on how to do something. I miss the olden days, In many ways the co-op console games are better, now if they make a Co-op rpg that is like oblivion for one of the newer systems I may just kiss mmo's goodbye forever.
Amen brother! The only three companies that seem to value a polished game at release. Although we will see how SW:TOR fares. Atleast they have the right mentality.
Anyone who says MMOs, in general, are better in quality than SP/CO-OP RPGs is mad.
It is about having that precious 50h of content - a sweet juice if you will. Now mix the juice with a lot of water so the player will spend more time drinking your juice and paying subscription. Instead of killing just 5 rats - kill 50 rats. Instead of fast travel - you have to walk or use a mount, which you have to grind first...
If you can't taste the juice, it's not worth drinking. That is why subscription is inherently bad for the games.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Both the games you mention have promise but for me they are lacking something. Their are more RPG coming in the next two months that could and could be better than the two above games you mention.
In Eight weeks time this game will kick oblivions *** risen.deepsilver.com/game/index.html#en
We have a choice of several RPG that are gracing our PC/Consoles starting from this sept 09.
First RPG on the list is Dragon Age Origins..
In case some of you have been sleeping under a rock, DAO is one of BioWare other little projects that they have been working on for a while. Think of Baldur's Gate and you have DAO which is the spiritual successor to that great game.
dragonage.bioware.com/
Second RPG on the list is Risen..
Not many of you in the US would of heard of this game which is being made by the same dev team that bought us in Europe(it was released in NA as well) that fantastic RPG series called Gothic by Piranha Bytes.
Do not mistake this game for the up and coming Gothic 4 An Arcarnia Tale RPG which is being made by a different dev team called Spellbound and produced by JoWood.
Risen is a whole new adventure which does not feature your normal RPG races,meaning no Elves or Dwarfs. This RPG really looks like it will be a winner and bring some fresh new races to the fantasy RPG fold.
www.eurogamer.pt/videos/risen-trailer-musical
www.eurogamer.pt/videos/risen-visita-pela-cidade
risen.deepsilver.com/game/index.html
www.worldofrisen.de/english/
Third on the list is Gothic 4 "Arcarnia Tale" ..
Well, what can i say about this series of RPG,plenty i guess ,having played all three.
As i mentioned in my Risen preview, don't mistake these devs with the original Gothic team,they are now the Risen DeepSilver Dev team.
A bit of history about the Gothic RPG. First off they are great free roaming RPG that are akin to Morrowind and Oblivion,meaning "Sandbox". Some would say you either love em or hate them mainly due to the controls and the combat system,i for one loved it.
Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 "Night Of The Raven" are probably the best out of the 3 because Gothic 3 was riddled with bugs but still a great game if you could look beyond the bugs.
Many of the Gothic fans think that JoWood will not be able to capture the true essence of the original Gothic games,meaning the Gothic feel and world. I am prepared to give them a chance but i will be giving Risen my full attention
The latest E3 vid has many people talking,whether good or bad we will have to see.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.worldofgothic.com/
Forth on the list is Divinity 2..
I will be honest and say that i have not played these RPG but have been following this latest instalment with interest. This game is set in an seamless open world and covers the story of a dragon slayer.
Their are some good twist to this RPG ,like taking the dragon form and flying to places that can't be reached by your human form.
www.divinity2.com/
Fifth on the list is a console title called "Alpha Protocol" the espionage rpg..
This RPG seems very interesting and i for one will seriously considered getting this for my PS3.
www.sega.com/alphaprotocol/uk/
If you can tolerate your rpgs mixed with a heavy dose of strategy, Disciples III and the King's Bounty expansion, Armoured Princess.
www.kings-bounty.com/
We also have The Witcher "Rise of the white wolf"
I have the Enhanced edition of "The Witcher" which was released after the original game. It was practically bug free and for me a great mature RPG with some nice mature touches.
You either love it or hate is all i can say really. Now they are bringing this game to the console market with better combat and story.
www.gametrailers.com/video/ex...-witcher/27143
become.thewitcher.com/
So as you can see from the list we have plenty to keep us busy until a good mmorpg comes out. I am giving up mmorpg for a while because they don't give me any satisfaction at the moment.
Oh and Gothic 2 "The Night Of The Raven" kicks Oblivions ass all over the pitch. The mods for Oblivion is what has kept the game alive,the actual game it's self is crap.
Oblivion= all flash and no dash.
If you think Oblivion is a good RPG, you should try other solid RPG titles like Far Cry or Bioshock.
I have exactly different opinion, single player RPG since Vampire Bloodlines went downhill horribly. Mass Effect is an RPG? It's a bloody shooter with a few dialogues, Neverwinter Nights 2? Come on, Oblivion? FPS Aim, quest tracker, instant travel, level scale -- that doesn't make an RPG, that makes a shooter.
The last good RPG I can think of was Wizardry 8 and Baldur's Gate. Single RPG genre is dying more than anything. People keep calling these shooters with a bits of character customization roleplaying games, but they aren't.
REALITY CHECK
Actually I think single player RPGs have become much worse in the last 10 years and MMOs have become much better.
Compare Baldurs gate, Planescape:Torment, Fallout 1-2, Neverwinter nights to the single player RPGs of today
Seems like MMOs have been evolving alot more than the single player RPGs...
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
What you really mean is, the last good RPG THAT you played were Wizardry 8 and Baldur's Gate. Notice that i put the word "THAT" in caps,it's just me making a point about what RPG you think are good.
I played both the above games and many more but for me GOTHIC 1 and Gothic 2 "Night of the raven" kick both the above mentioned games all over the place,and they are less than 10 years old.
www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/gothic
www.gamershell.com/pc/gothic_2_night_of_the_raven/review.html
uk.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/gothiciithenightoftheraven/index.html
The AI in these games is the best i have ever seen to date in any RPG.
If you have not played these RPG then i sugest you do... :-)
I did Billy I did. Gothic 2 was released in 2002 if I'm not mistaken (around the time Wizardry 8 was released). It was solid and it would be great if Gothic 3 would have the same quality. It didn't. And it's exactly what I was talking about. Single player RPG went downhill -> Bioware which had some great titles are now making shooters, Bathesda that was doing great sandbox rpg's are now putting level scale, instant travel, quest trackers, and more focus on FPS combat aiming into their games, SSI & westwood are dead for some time (old school AD&D dungeons), Sir-Tech is dead (wizardry series), 3do is dead (might and magic series), Troika is dead (greyhawk, arcanum, fallout 1-2) please remind me some more.
Now we get FPS aiming, lots of action, lots of in-game cut scenes and videos, It's an rpg for children or a shooter for adults. But there're no RPGs for adults nowadays.
REALITY CHECK
Yeah i understand what you are saying. Let's hope that Risen risen.deepsilver.com/game/index.html#en brings back that real RPG feeling.
www.jeuxvideo.com/gaming_live/0000/00002739/risen_1_2_l_intelligence_artificielle_f1q1.htm
www.jeuxvideo.com/gaming_live/0000/00002740/risen_2_2_les_interactions_avec_l_univers_f1q1.htm
risen.deepsilver.com/blog/pages/en/news/news.php
First off vanilla oblivion is / was terrible. Thankfully there are plenty of mods found available. Saying they drasticly improve the game is an understatement.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Recommended_Mods
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/top/
http://amito.freehostia.com/index.html
There are so many great mods for oblivion that can completely transform the game into something great, at minimium i strongly suggest at least an overhaul mod like OOO or Fran's. MMM, Warcry and Deadly Reflex are all 3 great options but the FCOM is unrivaled.
I prefer Fran's+MMM+Midas Magic Spells of Aurum+Supreme Magicka and around 30 other minor mods. Natural Environments is also a must have. Make sure you slow your leveling speed down 50% otherwise you'll level to fast with fran's+mmm.
Between Fallout 3, Mass Effect, GTA 4, and TF2, I haven't had to long into an MMORPG for months.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It's unnecessary to point out that "doing things poorly is bad."
Forced 1st Person means games where you're always in 1st person, with the possible exceptions of Exhibition (VATS) or Vanity camera angles (basically something you can't walk around with, possibly limited to the noncombat areas of the game.)
I know what forced first person is
and my point was that, if done right, first person view doesn't even have to be forced to increase immersion. EQ first person wasn't forced, but it helped with immersion. I was saying much more than "doing things poorly is bad." 
I don't know of any MMOs whatsoever that ever FORCED first person. Heck, even Oblivion (I know it isn't an MMO, but it's the OP's example of what should be) doesn't FORCE it. You can play Oblivion in third person. It just sucks that way.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
The best way to deal with trolls:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ [IGNORE THEM, THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION!]
Oblivion is not even close as being a great RPG. It's not a bad game but if an mmo similar to oblivion comes out, then I see no point in paying for that.
Baldurs gate, Fallout 2 were good RPGs...
Gothic 1-3 were great, and soon Risen
And of course Baldurs Gate and Fallout )
Well my point (which admittedly I didn't describe well) was that games with a focus on 1st person cam will typically put in the effort to really make it awesome - especially if it's the only camera the game has.
The people I worked with who worked on Oblivions admit to a lot of the game's mistakes, including 3rd person cam. Basically without making the animations look right they said it shouldn't have been an option.
The biggest problem with non-forced 1st is that typically 3rd person offers huge tactical advantages and players end up playing with it so they can see over terrain and around walls where their character can't.
Also to be clear I'm not trying to say 1st Person Cam is the best choice for RPGs. It's may be more immersive by a longshot, but 3rd person cam has very strong advantages of its own (hence why we see it in so many games.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver