Isn't that expecting customers to pay to try the Beta Test? Isn't that the opposite of what a open Beta Test should be? Aren't these companies trying to entice us to part with our money to play their game, and they think the best way of doing this is tying their Beta Test to a service that you have to pay for access to? Is it only me that tends to turn two fingers up at these companies?
I will never buy nor play a game that expects potential customers to pay for a Open Beta Test.
To me it is akin to turning up at a Ford Dealership and asking for a test drive of one of their cars and they suggesting that you join the AA before you can take a Test Drive.
Isn't going to happen. What is going to happen is that I am going to walk out of the Dealership and go buy a car from a rival. Which translates to me walking away from one MMORPG and going to play the game of a rival.
What is up with this new gen players that wants it all and wants it free.
Sorry but getting a sub to fileplanet gives you allot more then just a few beta's.
Besides I play beta's for free thanks to having a sub to file-planet, sorry I can't help it that some people are just to cheap to do so.
Besides you don't have to do it, just don't beta the games from fileplanet. Remember it is a choice.
If you want some free trail you just have to wait, not sure why people keep making topics like this.
Besides knowing how big fileplanet is it seems like the right place for developers to promote their games, atleast most GAMERS I know keep track or are subbed to fileplanet, I mean common such a low subfee for it.
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by Vicatin Betas have turned into previews, where have you been? I can't remember the last true beta... WoW maybe?
Every beta is both a "true beta" and a preview. It'd be dumb to assume a beta could have just one purpose. Every beta, someone's out there posting that the crap's borked on their system. It's how devs uncover bugs they might normally miss without ridiculously extensive hardware testing.
Yes, companies of course want to advertise and get people in during a beta. There are people that would join a beta that would not pay to play it, and that means more potential customers.
At the same time, there are people like this, that actively look for and report any problems that exist in the game. These are the testers. Most companies want to attract both sorts of people, at least for open betas. You want more testers in closed betas, which is why most companies have you tell them what your computer is like, so they can have a wide breadth of people testing the game.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Isn't that expecting customers to pay to try the Beta Test? Isn't that the opposite of what a open Beta Test should be? Aren't these companies trying to entice us to part with our money to play their game, and they think the best way of doing this is tying their Beta Test to a service that you have to pay for access to? Is it only me that tends to turn two fingers up at these companies?
I will never buy nor play a game that expects potential customers to pay for a Open Beta Test.
To me it is akin to turning up at a Ford Dealership and asking for a test drive of one of their cars and they suggesting that you join the AA before you can take a Test Drive.
Isn't going to happen. What is going to happen is that I am going to walk out of the Dealership and go buy a car from a rival. Which translates to me walking away from one MMORPG and going to play the game of a rival.
What is up with this new gen players that wants it all and wants it free.
Sorry but getting a sub to fileplanet gives you allot more then just a few beta's.
Besides I play beta's for free thanks to having a sub to file-planet, sorry I can't help it that some people are just to cheap to do so.
Besides you don't have to do it, just don't beta the games from fileplanet. Remember it is a choice.
If you want some free trail you just have to wait, not sure why people keep making topics like this.
I refer you to my earlier remarks about what a game company wants.
Do they want us to buy the game now or in 6 months when they do a free trial?
its a simple question and i think the answer is equally as simple....now.
So while the smug replies are fine, do they help the company that will end up with yet another niche market MMORPG that doesn't have mass appeal because they instigated a system that automatically alienated a large group of players?
Isn't that expecting customers to pay to try the Beta Test? Isn't that the opposite of what a open Beta Test should be? Aren't these companies trying to entice us to part with our money to play their game, and they think the best way of doing this is tying their Beta Test to a service that you have to pay for access to? Is it only me that tends to turn two fingers up at these companies?
I will never buy nor play a game that expects potential customers to pay for a Open Beta Test.
To me it is akin to turning up at a Ford Dealership and asking for a test drive of one of their cars and they suggesting that you join the AA before you can take a Test Drive.
Isn't going to happen. What is going to happen is that I am going to walk out of the Dealership and go buy a car from a rival. Which translates to me walking away from one MMORPG and going to play the game of a rival.
What is up with this new gen players that wants it all and wants it free.
Sorry but getting a sub to fileplanet gives you allot more then just a few beta's.
Besides I play beta's for free thanks to having a sub to file-planet, sorry I can't help it that some people are just to cheap to do so.
Besides you don't have to do it, just don't beta the games from fileplanet. Remember it is a choice.
If you want some free trail you just have to wait, not sure why people keep making topics like this.
I refer you to my earlier remarks about what a game company wants.
Do they want us to buy the game now or in 6 months when they do a free trial?
its a simple question and i think the answer is equally as simple....now.
So while the smug replies are fine, do they help the company that will end up with yet another niche market MMORPG that doesn't have mass appeal because they instigated a system that automatically alienated a large group of players?
Think the subs for fileplanet would be more then enough to get potential gamers interested into tested it.
Atleast I feel any gamer truly intrested into games would be on fileplanet, merly talking about all those people I know as gamers that are also subbed to sites like fileplanet/gametrailers etc...etc...
Besides from my experiance with Open beta it also often brings in lots and lots of people that just in for the free ride, it's was in the past often one of the worst experiance I encountered with open beta's, so things like fileplanet might filter those free riders with those honostly intrested in games, not saying every fileplanet user is like that, but those I know are like that. Sorry I don't know the whole world. But as a gamer I am very glad that fileplanet sort of works like a filter for it.
Anyone ever notice how paid beta tests tend to backfire? The gamers wonder why the game is incomplete or buggy and flood the forusm with complaints, and most don't even bother to report bugs. If you look at cheating sites like DamnCheaters, paid beta tests are how these guys get an early look at the game, and it gives them quite the advantage in developing hacks for them since it's a debug build with shitloads of text strings that explain the whole program, and sometimes if they're lucky a PDB (program database) file which is extremely useful. Others use this as an opportunity to find game breaking exploits and don't bother reporting them with the intent to use them in retail to gain an advantage, and sometimes even for profit.
Isn't that expecting customers to pay to try the Beta Test? Isn't that the opposite of what a open Beta Test should be? Aren't these companies trying to entice us to part with our money to play their game, and they think the best way of doing this is tying their Beta Test to a service that you have to pay for access to? Is it only me that tends to turn two fingers up at these companies?
I will never buy nor play a game that expects potential customers to pay for a Open Beta Test.
To me it is akin to turning up at a Ford Dealership and asking for a test drive of one of their cars and they suggesting that you join the AA before you can take a Test Drive.
Isn't going to happen. What is going to happen is that I am going to walk out of the Dealership and go buy a car from a rival. Which translates to me walking away from one MMORPG and going to play the game of a rival.
Ok, i see this threads pop up everytime there is a game that is hyped and people want to play the game and either cant/dont have/wont to part with cash to get in. Now I have been betas for more years then some of you been on forums QQing. Let me SPELL this out for you.
BETA is a TESTING phase for a game or software. It is a test to find BUGS in the game/software, NOT a test to see if it fits your style. Now there are 2 Sub-class of BETA: Closed and Open. In both sub-class there are multi-phase of it. Now back to Closed: This is where a NDA (Non-disclosure agreement ) in in place.This is when they are very picky about who gets in and who doesnt. Its mean to help find all the big big big bugs that stand out, one that just show up because you click this or attack that. And as time goes on and they kill this bug and that bug, they let in a few more people (MORE EYES means MORE BUGS KILLED). Ok now they have got the game to good level, and they game/software is close to being launchable, they do whats called a OPEN BETA: This is where they left the NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) so that the COLSED BETA people can tell people about what they have seen, how bad the game was, and how far it came. This is the Marketing part of the beta, thats it. Now they arent as picky about who come because now they need to see it in real world, people pushing things like the servers, the programming because when you have 1k people just looking for bugs that what they do, but when you have 5k+ people then people are trying to find cheats, and holes that the 1k people where not. So they get an Idea of what 5Mil customers will be doing with theyre product. OPEN BETA is still a test to test for problems NOT to test to see if it fits you. The game/software still isnt finished. And in the case of MMOs it still isnt finished until they close the last server down. They are always tweaking it.
Now to then YOU can see if it FITS YOU. That is after Launch, and you buy it, or wait until you can try it on for size for FREE: this is called X DAY FREE TRIAL.
It probably has more to do with convienence/money than anything. Advertising and hosting from Fileplanet and money for Fileplanet (sub registrations) for being known to host open betas. Looks like a "scratch my back and ill scratch your's". And it seems to have become highly popular as of late. The game companies don't care who gets in at this point, all they are looking for is numbers on the server anyway.
Pretty good business idea and nothing wrong with it. People are just irritated because they aren't willing to sub to Fileplanet and remember when you could try almost any open beta without having to actually buy something.
Isn't that expecting customers to pay to try the Beta Test? Isn't that the opposite of what a open Beta Test should be? Aren't these companies trying to entice us to part with our money to play their game, and they think the best way of doing this is tying their Beta Test to a service that you have to pay for access to? Is it only me that tends to turn two fingers up at these companies?
I will never buy nor play a game that expects potential customers to pay for a Open Beta Test.
To me it is akin to turning up at a Ford Dealership and asking for a test drive of one of their cars and they suggesting that you join the AA before you can take a Test Drive.
Isn't going to happen. What is going to happen is that I am going to walk out of the Dealership and go buy a car from a rival. Which translates to me walking away from one MMORPG and going to play the game of a rival.
Ok, i see this threads pop up everytime there is a game that is hyped and people want to play the game and either cant/dont have/wont to part with cash to get in. Now I have been betas for more years then some of you been on forums QQing. Let me SPELL this out for you.
BETA is a TESTING phase for a game or software. It is a test to find BUGS in the game/software, NOT a test to see if it fits your style. Now there are 2 Sub-class of BETA: Closed and Open. In both sub-class there are multi-phase of it. Now back to Closed: This is where a NDA (Non-disclosure agreement ) in in place.This is when they are very picky about who gets in and who doesnt. Its mean to help find all the big big big bugs that stand out, one that just show up because you click this or attack that. And as time goes on and they kill this bug and that bug, they let in a few more people (MORE EYES means MORE BUGS KILLED). Ok now they have got the game to good level, and they game/software is close to being launchable, they do whats called a OPEN BETA: This is where they left the NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) so that the COLSED BETA people can tell people about what they have seen, how bad the game was, and how far it came. This is the Marketing part of the beta, thats it. Now they arent as picky about who come because now they need to see it in real world, people pushing things like the servers, the programming because when you have 1k people just looking for bugs that what they do, but when you have 5k+ people then people are trying to find cheats, and holes that the 1k people where not. So they get an Idea of what 5Mil customers will be doing with theyre product. OPEN BETA is still a test to test for problems NOT to test to see if it fits you. The game/software still isnt finished. And in the case of MMOs it still isnt finished until they close the last server down. They are always tweaking it.
Now to then YOU can see if it FITS YOU. That is after Launch, and you buy it, or wait until you can try it on for size for FREE: this is called X DAY FREE TRIAL.
No Open Beta is not for testing you numpty.
This has been repeated several times, but of course what with your extensive skill in beta testing, oh btw I probably been beta testing longer then you had hair on the proverbial, you didn't need to read the thread.
Instead you just repeated something that was and still is incorrect.
It probably has more to do with convienence/money than anything. Advertising and hosting from Fileplanet and money for Fileplanet (sub registrations) for being known to host open betas. Looks like a "scratch my back and ill scratch your's". And it seems to have become highly popular as of late. The game companies don't care who gets in at this point, all they are looking for is numbers on the server anyway. Pretty good business idea and nothing wrong with it. People are just irritated because they aren't willing to sub to Fileplanet and remember when you could try almost any open beta without having to actually buy something.
I tend to agree.
I just think it is a mistake by games companies to force people into this position. It has put me right off of two MMORPGs I might have thought about buying.
I will now wait til the Trial period for Fallen Earth and Champions online to try them out before I buy them.
I do not think that is what the companies want. They don't want people to wait 6 months to try their game out and possibly buy it, they want people to pre-order it and play it at release.
I was in the WoW open Beta, and I bought the game before it was released, I was in the CoH beta and I bought the game before release.
I wasn't in AoC or WAR and neither one did I buy before release, both I waited until the trial was available, which was actually quite recently, and then tried them out. I am not suggesting that my SINGLE subscription makes a difference in the grand scheme of things, I am suggesting that my example is probably quite similar to other peoples examples and my behaviour could be seen as a trend of behaviour shared by many people.
Maybe I missed it in another post but looking through I didn't see this answer:
You are not paying the game company for a beta test. You are paying fileplanet to download the beta. The beta is free, the download from the 3rd party, fileplanet, is not.
Fileplanet is a business; they make their money from people who download from their website. This is who is getting your 5 bucks. It pays their overhead so they can offer you the product. They also make a profit; hence making it a 'money making operation' rather than a charity which would just be overhead costs hence the term non-profit.
Everyone got the car analogy wrong. When you walk in to test drive the car, you have to have a valid license to drive. You pay the DMV that money, not Ford, not BMW - a third party.
So.....fileplanet is the DMV, you pay them for your license to drive the beta for free.
Well...even that analogy has problems, but it is closer than the other comments.
EDIT: an easier answer is: you don't HAVE to do anything. You are a free person endowed by the creator with certain inaliable rights - you can always choose not to open your wallet. If you think paying fileplanet money to test a beta is wrong; don't do it. Take control of your wallet and your wallet won't control you. It isn't fileplanet or the gaming company that is flawed, it is your own willpower.
Isn't that expecting customers to pay to try the Beta Test? Isn't that the opposite of what a open Beta Test should be? Aren't these companies trying to entice us to part with our money to play their game, and they think the best way of doing this is tying their Beta Test to a service that you have to pay for access to? Is it only me that tends to turn two fingers up at these companies?
I will never buy nor play a game that expects potential customers to pay for a Open Beta Test.
To me it is akin to turning up at a Ford Dealership and asking for a test drive of one of their cars and they suggesting that you join the AA before you can take a Test Drive.
Isn't going to happen. What is going to happen is that I am going to walk out of the Dealership and go buy a car from a rival. Which translates to me walking away from one MMORPG and going to play the game of a rival.
Ok, i see this threads pop up everytime there is a game that is hyped and people want to play the game and either cant/dont have/wont to part with cash to get in. Now I have been betas for more years then some of you been on forums QQing. Let me SPELL this out for you.
BETA is a TESTING phase for a game or software. It is a test to find BUGS in the game/software, NOT a test to see if it fits your style. Now there are 2 Sub-class of BETA: Closed and Open. In both sub-class there are multi-phase of it. Now back to Closed: This is where a NDA (Non-disclosure agreement ) in in place.This is when they are very picky about who gets in and who doesnt. Its mean to help find all the big big big bugs that stand out, one that just show up because you click this or attack that. And as time goes on and they kill this bug and that bug, they let in a few more people (MORE EYES means MORE BUGS KILLED). Ok now they have got the game to good level, and they game/software is close to being launchable, they do whats called a OPEN BETA: This is where they left the NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) so that the COLSED BETA people can tell people about what they have seen, how bad the game was, and how far it came. This is the Marketing part of the beta, thats it. Now they arent as picky about who come because now they need to see it in real world, people pushing things like the servers, the programming because when you have 1k people just looking for bugs that what they do, but when you have 5k+ people then people are trying to find cheats, and holes that the 1k people where not. So they get an Idea of what 5Mil customers will be doing with theyre product. OPEN BETA is still a test to test for problems NOT to test to see if it fits you. The game/software still isnt finished. And in the case of MMOs it still isnt finished until they close the last server down. They are always tweaking it.
Now to then YOU can see if it FITS YOU. That is after Launch, and you buy it, or wait until you can try it on for size for FREE: this is called X DAY FREE TRIAL.
No Open Beta is not for testing you numpty.
This has been repeated several times, but of course what with your extensive skill in beta testing, oh btw I probably been beta testing longer then you had hair on the proverbial, you didn't need to read the thread.
Instead you just repeated something that was and still is incorrect.
Lol, its more like your made that your mommy wouldnt give you her CC # to get a monthly Scrib with Fileplanet, and now nothing anyone is going to say is going to make you happy unless someone says you are right and they are wrong, well guess what your not going to hear from me because YOUR NOT. OPEN BETA ISNT A FREE TO PLAY TRAIL. ITS A BETA YOU QQ CAREBEAR .
Isn't that expecting customers to pay to try the Beta Test? Isn't that the opposite of what a open Beta Test should be? Aren't these companies trying to entice us to part with our money to play their game, and they think the best way of doing this is tying their Beta Test to a service that you have to pay for access to? Is it only me that tends to turn two fingers up at these companies?
I will never buy nor play a game that expects potential customers to pay for a Open Beta Test.
To me it is akin to turning up at a Ford Dealership and asking for a test drive of one of their cars and they suggesting that you join the AA before you can take a Test Drive.
Isn't going to happen. What is going to happen is that I am going to walk out of the Dealership and go buy a car from a rival. Which translates to me walking away from one MMORPG and going to play the game of a rival.
Ok, i see this threads pop up everytime there is a game that is hyped and people want to play the game and either cant/dont have/wont to part with cash to get in. Now I have been betas for more years then some of you been on forums QQing. Let me SPELL this out for you.
BETA is a TESTING phase for a game or software. It is a test to find BUGS in the game/software, NOT a test to see if it fits your style. Now there are 2 Sub-class of BETA: Closed and Open. In both sub-class there are multi-phase of it. Now back to Closed: This is where a NDA (Non-disclosure agreement ) in in place.This is when they are very picky about who gets in and who doesnt. Its mean to help find all the big big big bugs that stand out, one that just show up because you click this or attack that. And as time goes on and they kill this bug and that bug, they let in a few more people (MORE EYES means MORE BUGS KILLED). Ok now they have got the game to good level, and they game/software is close to being launchable, they do whats called a OPEN BETA: This is where they left the NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) so that the COLSED BETA people can tell people about what they have seen, how bad the game was, and how far it came. This is the Marketing part of the beta, thats it. Now they arent as picky about who come because now they need to see it in real world, people pushing things like the servers, the programming because when you have 1k people just looking for bugs that what they do, but when you have 5k+ people then people are trying to find cheats, and holes that the 1k people where not. So they get an Idea of what 5Mil customers will be doing with theyre product. OPEN BETA is still a test to test for problems NOT to test to see if it fits you. The game/software still isnt finished. And in the case of MMOs it still isnt finished until they close the last server down. They are always tweaking it.
Now to then YOU can see if it FITS YOU. That is after Launch, and you buy it, or wait until you can try it on for size for FREE: this is called X DAY FREE TRIAL.
No Open Beta is not for testing you numpty.
This has been repeated several times, but of course what with your extensive skill in beta testing, oh btw I probably been beta testing longer then you had hair on the proverbial, you didn't need to read the thread.
Instead you just repeated something that was and still is incorrect.
Lol, its more like your made that your mommy wouldnt give you her CC # to get a monthly Scrib with Fileplanet, and now nothing anyone is going to say is going to make you happy unless someone says you are right and they are wrong, well guess what your not going to hear from me because YOUR NOT. OPEN BETA ISNT A FREE TO PLAY TRAIL. ITS A BETA YOU QQ CAREBEAR .
Agreed. Just because this guy hasn't actually written bug reports or seen how devs are testing the game during open beta, doesn't mean it isn't a test phase.
There are an infinite number of aspects being tested during open beta. They need to know where the flaws are when they have a server at full capacity. For that, they need the server at full capacity, hence they invite enough people to fill their servers to run the final (although exceedingly numerous) tests.
Yes, the devs know that all 2000+ people on the server aren't writing bug reports, yes they know that most (hopefully) of the bugs have been worked out. But what they don't know is how the game will perform with 2000 folks on at once. Show me another way they can run these tests without inviting 2000 people to open beta.
Open beta is the final stage of testing.
Show me one beta test email or ingame message that disuaded you from testing the product. Show me one that doesn't emphasize the importance that it is a test phase. You can't.
Just because you've never tested during the beta doesn't mean the devs weren't using your presence for their own tests.
If they are lucky, there is an added PR benefit. But it doesn't always work that way - look at what happened to VG. VG is a prime example of how testing was more important to the beta then the PR.
EDIT: and besides; to OP; you are paying fileplanet for the download service, you aren't paying the game company a dime. Your problem isn't with the developing company - it is with the 3rd party who is offering you a service. Still don't think that's right - you can always choose to close your wallet.
Honestly, look what happened with Fallen Earth. They started the closed beta the same way. When their servers were deserted from the lack of people willing to pay File Planet for their shite service, they gave it free.
The choice is simple: pay or wait. Quit whining, though. Please.
Don't pay for it...wait for the trial. It should last that long. Some games everyone gets to beta, some are select. DDO everyone that signed up got in...so that's an example. However the game was out previously, and this incarnation is just a F2P version.
Originally posted by Dafong You leep saying this in an effort to muddy the waters to suit your argument, but even the Title of the thread states....Open Beta. An open beta is NOT a place where developers gain insight to the bugs and problems of their games, they have said as much in the past. It is simply a place to stress test the servers and to showcase their game.
Stress testing finds bugs and performance issues (which are seen in the same light as bugs by customers.)
So yes, developers do gain insight from open betas.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I pay for a fileplanet sub didn't really get it for beta got it for fast downloads on all sorts of files...haha I thought I would never sub to fileplanet but for 6 bucks I have used it more than alot of stuff I pay more. on top I get into some betas which is cool.... I always thought you had to be super lucky to get into a beta anyways. With my fileplanet sub I have got to beta test alot of games so far.
Bottom line you are entitled to nothing! Go into Mcdonalds order a burger but first say you want to bite into it test it out then decide if you wanna buy it. Self entitled generation strikes again. Here is a free tip "you are not the center of the world"
Walk into a BMW dealership looking scruffy and not having showered for a few days. Now tell the salesman that you want to take a test drive. I'm guessing that you don't have much shot. Dealers are not obligated to let you drive their cars for free either. If you don't fit a profile of a prospective car buyer, you don't get to drive it around. They'll tell you thank you for the interest, but no. Or they'll ask to see a pre qualified loan. Something that says that you are at least nominally committed. Now bring it back to this game. If you are Cryptic and want to stress test your servers with X number of people. X is a limited number since you know that this is a niche game. So do you want to reward the people who are going to buy your game anyway? Or the guy who's already bashing you on the forums and wouldn't buy your game if it turned yarn into gold thread? If you only need a limited number of people it makes a lot of sense to target the people that will be playing your game or are preetty sure they are going to play your game and are willing to part with $5 for the chance to see it. Those are the people I want taking my limited slots.
Isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy?
A niche game marketed to a select group only, will be a niche game, because everyone else will avoid it.
Now I suggest that if you go to a Ford dealership, looking scruffy, they will still let you drive one of their cars, if you went to a Lamboughini or an Aston Martin dealership then you might get a different response. Is Champions Online marketing itself as an exclusive game only to be played by the few? Is that the idea behind Fallen Earth too? Two games that are currently "open" beta testing to subscribers of Fileplanet only.
Well if that is the case, then they have no problem with people like myself, who might have bought and played their product, saying well if it isn't for me, then I won't bother buying it. I believe that this is NOT the intention of either of those games and that they don't in fact want to limit the people that buy their game or play their game and if their games had subscribers equal to World of Warcraft, they would have a fit of ecstasy .
So I think you are wrong. I think you have plucked something out of thin air that you thought sounded good, but on further inspection turns out to be utter rubbish.
I don't think there is an MMORPG out there that is AIMING for the Niche market, aiming for only a few subscribers. I think they are ALL aiming for the mass market appeal of WoW and the millions of dollars in revenue that it creates each month and most of them fail miserably and end up with a niche game that works to a niche market.
My suggestion in this thread is that maybe if they didn't try and make money out of a supposedly Open Beta test then maybe they wouldn't keep ending up with niche market games.
Sure, they would love to have WoW like numbers... then there's reality. They have a pretty good idea on how many people are going to play their game. They've done studies, polls, and can see that other super hero game. Sure they can beat that mark; however, superheroes remains a niche market.
Nor did I pluck something out of the air. They did limit the OB to a certain amount. In most stores in this area you can no longer get an OB key with your preorder. They shipped a limited quantity to their dealers and those are gone. I was able to get two more keys only by searching through several Gamestops.
Given that the OB is limited, then who do you give away the keys too?
People that are not as likely to buy? No.
Much like the auto dealership. I'm sorry, you're not testing my BMW without showing me you have some capacity or inclination to buy my product. In fact, go to your Ford dealership and tell them that you don't want to buy their car, but just take it for a ride. Tell me us how that works out. Companies reserve their benefits for the most likely customers. They do it all the time. This is no different.
Also, I am not paying anything for this Open Beta. I am paying $5 to pre-order their game. Which comes with a nice benefit of getting into the Open Beta. Frankly I might be a little more mad if they passed out their limited keys to people like you, who are likely not going to be customers, before rewarding me. That might make me want to cancel.
So should they offend you, an unlikely customer.... and not get your business. Or offend me, a proven customer and loose the business that they are counting on?
You see here's something other companies should copy from Blizzard. How to run an open beta.
If you really want to provide options for your potential customers why not offer a 2 week beta? The first week being pay to play on fileplanet and the second week being free.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Somebody has to host that 5-gigabyte client, and Cryptic sure as hell can't do it. Just trying to patch the game made their servers explode in a fiery ball of death. So companies turn to places like FilePlanet. FilePlanet can handle that kind of load, so they host the files and in return, they make a few bucks from it.
The only drawback is that since I've paid for the beta (even if I didn't pay Cryptic directly), I view the CO beta differently than I view most betas. In a free open beta, I'm paying for a sneak preview of the game by submitting bug reports. Helping them track down bugs is my payment. With Champions Online, I've just paid cash for a sneak preview of the game, so I'm not submitting anything. I hope they got what they needed during closed beta.
No one is forcing anyone to pay to be in open beta. If you pay the $5 pre-order, then you are either planning to buy the game or you are still on the fence on whether the game is for you or not. No one is entitled to open beta...
OP, you're confusing an open beta with a free trial. I'm sure you do want to get a look at all the latest and greatest games on release day, for free, in the same way that I'd like to get laid by a different supermodel every night of the week, but the reality is that the industry has never worked that way. MMOs don't start offering free trials until months after release. Open beta, despite what you may wish, is not an invitation for the cheapskate masses to come in for free samples. There is still testing going on, and these game companies have much more to be concerned about than some idiot who can't afford five bucks.
If you wanted to see Champions and FE for free, you had ample opportunity to do so as they took thousands of beta testers over the past year.
No, there isn't any expectation of you buying it. And if that's okay with you, I'm sure it's okay with them.
Thing is, I am pretty sure it is not ok with them.
I am pretty sure that as a company with Shareholders and with creditors that it is not ok with those people that the company just alienates customers and reduces the possible market for their product.
I think if the MMORPG community were a little stronger in their voice in this matter that this process of only allowing Beta testers through a company that forced them to pay would end in a heartbeat.
These companies aren't making games for the fun of it, they are making games for money. When they act in a way which reduces the chances of their income you can beat there are bean counters who will stand up and say...hey, how about you don't do that?
Comments
What is up with this new gen players that wants it all and wants it free.
Sorry but getting a sub to fileplanet gives you allot more then just a few beta's.
Besides I play beta's for free thanks to having a sub to file-planet, sorry I can't help it that some people are just to cheap to do so.
Besides you don't have to do it, just don't beta the games from fileplanet. Remember it is a choice.
If you want some free trail you just have to wait, not sure why people keep making topics like this.
Besides knowing how big fileplanet is it seems like the right place for developers to promote their games, atleast most GAMERS I know keep track or are subbed to fileplanet, I mean common such a low subfee for it.
Every beta is both a "true beta" and a preview. It'd be dumb to assume a beta could have just one purpose.
Every beta, someone's out there posting that the crap's borked on their system. It's how devs uncover bugs they might normally miss without ridiculously extensive hardware testing.
Yes, companies of course want to advertise and get people in during a beta. There are people that would join a beta that would not pay to play it, and that means more potential customers.
At the same time, there are people like this, that actively look for and report any problems that exist in the game. These are the testers. Most companies want to attract both sorts of people, at least for open betas. You want more testers in closed betas, which is why most companies have you tell them what your computer is like, so they can have a wide breadth of people testing the game.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
What is up with this new gen players that wants it all and wants it free.
Sorry but getting a sub to fileplanet gives you allot more then just a few beta's.
Besides I play beta's for free thanks to having a sub to file-planet, sorry I can't help it that some people are just to cheap to do so.
Besides you don't have to do it, just don't beta the games from fileplanet. Remember it is a choice.
If you want some free trail you just have to wait, not sure why people keep making topics like this.
I refer you to my earlier remarks about what a game company wants.
Do they want us to buy the game now or in 6 months when they do a free trial?
its a simple question and i think the answer is equally as simple....now.
So while the smug replies are fine, do they help the company that will end up with yet another niche market MMORPG that doesn't have mass appeal because they instigated a system that automatically alienated a large group of players?
What is up with this new gen players that wants it all and wants it free.
Sorry but getting a sub to fileplanet gives you allot more then just a few beta's.
Besides I play beta's for free thanks to having a sub to file-planet, sorry I can't help it that some people are just to cheap to do so.
Besides you don't have to do it, just don't beta the games from fileplanet. Remember it is a choice.
If you want some free trail you just have to wait, not sure why people keep making topics like this.
I refer you to my earlier remarks about what a game company wants.
Do they want us to buy the game now or in 6 months when they do a free trial?
its a simple question and i think the answer is equally as simple....now.
So while the smug replies are fine, do they help the company that will end up with yet another niche market MMORPG that doesn't have mass appeal because they instigated a system that automatically alienated a large group of players?
Think the subs for fileplanet would be more then enough to get potential gamers interested into tested it.
Atleast I feel any gamer truly intrested into games would be on fileplanet, merly talking about all those people I know as gamers that are also subbed to sites like fileplanet/gametrailers etc...etc...
Besides from my experiance with Open beta it also often brings in lots and lots of people that just in for the free ride, it's was in the past often one of the worst experiance I encountered with open beta's, so things like fileplanet might filter those free riders with those honostly intrested in games, not saying every fileplanet user is like that, but those I know are like that. Sorry I don't know the whole world. But as a gamer I am very glad that fileplanet sort of works like a filter for it.
Anyone ever notice how paid beta tests tend to backfire? The gamers wonder why the game is incomplete or buggy and flood the forusm with complaints, and most don't even bother to report bugs. If you look at cheating sites like DamnCheaters, paid beta tests are how these guys get an early look at the game, and it gives them quite the advantage in developing hacks for them since it's a debug build with shitloads of text strings that explain the whole program, and sometimes if they're lucky a PDB (program database) file which is extremely useful. Others use this as an opportunity to find game breaking exploits and don't bother reporting them with the intent to use them in retail to gain an advantage, and sometimes even for profit.
Ok, i see this threads pop up everytime there is a game that is hyped and people want to play the game and either cant/dont have/wont to part with cash to get in. Now I have been betas for more years then some of you been on forums QQing. Let me SPELL this out for you.
BETA is a TESTING phase for a game or software. It is a test to find BUGS in the game/software, NOT a test to see if it fits your style. Now there are 2 Sub-class of BETA: Closed and Open. In both sub-class there are multi-phase of it. Now back to Closed: This is where a NDA (Non-disclosure agreement ) in in place.This is when they are very picky about who gets in and who doesnt. Its mean to help find all the big big big bugs that stand out, one that just show up because you click this or attack that. And as time goes on and they kill this bug and that bug, they let in a few more people (MORE EYES means MORE BUGS KILLED). Ok now they have got the game to good level, and they game/software is close to being launchable, they do whats called a OPEN BETA: This is where they left the NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) so that the COLSED BETA people can tell people about what they have seen, how bad the game was, and how far it came. This is the Marketing part of the beta, thats it. Now they arent as picky about who come because now they need to see it in real world, people pushing things like the servers, the programming because when you have 1k people just looking for bugs that what they do, but when you have 5k+ people then people are trying to find cheats, and holes that the 1k people where not. So they get an Idea of what 5Mil customers will be doing with theyre product. OPEN BETA is still a test to test for problems NOT to test to see if it fits you. The game/software still isnt finished. And in the case of MMOs it still isnt finished until they close the last server down. They are always tweaking it.
Now to then YOU can see if it FITS YOU. That is after Launch, and you buy it, or wait until you can try it on for size for FREE: this is called X DAY FREE TRIAL.
It probably has more to do with convienence/money than anything. Advertising and hosting from Fileplanet and money for Fileplanet (sub registrations) for being known to host open betas. Looks like a "scratch my back and ill scratch your's". And it seems to have become highly popular as of late. The game companies don't care who gets in at this point, all they are looking for is numbers on the server anyway.
Pretty good business idea and nothing wrong with it. People are just irritated because they aren't willing to sub to Fileplanet and remember when you could try almost any open beta without having to actually buy something.
Ok, i see this threads pop up everytime there is a game that is hyped and people want to play the game and either cant/dont have/wont to part with cash to get in. Now I have been betas for more years then some of you been on forums QQing. Let me SPELL this out for you.
BETA is a TESTING phase for a game or software. It is a test to find BUGS in the game/software, NOT a test to see if it fits your style. Now there are 2 Sub-class of BETA: Closed and Open. In both sub-class there are multi-phase of it. Now back to Closed: This is where a NDA (Non-disclosure agreement ) in in place.This is when they are very picky about who gets in and who doesnt. Its mean to help find all the big big big bugs that stand out, one that just show up because you click this or attack that. And as time goes on and they kill this bug and that bug, they let in a few more people (MORE EYES means MORE BUGS KILLED). Ok now they have got the game to good level, and they game/software is close to being launchable, they do whats called a OPEN BETA: This is where they left the NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) so that the COLSED BETA people can tell people about what they have seen, how bad the game was, and how far it came. This is the Marketing part of the beta, thats it. Now they arent as picky about who come because now they need to see it in real world, people pushing things like the servers, the programming because when you have 1k people just looking for bugs that what they do, but when you have 5k+ people then people are trying to find cheats, and holes that the 1k people where not. So they get an Idea of what 5Mil customers will be doing with theyre product. OPEN BETA is still a test to test for problems NOT to test to see if it fits you. The game/software still isnt finished. And in the case of MMOs it still isnt finished until they close the last server down. They are always tweaking it.
Now to then YOU can see if it FITS YOU. That is after Launch, and you buy it, or wait until you can try it on for size for FREE: this is called X DAY FREE TRIAL.
No Open Beta is not for testing you numpty.
This has been repeated several times, but of course what with your extensive skill in beta testing, oh btw I probably been beta testing longer then you had hair on the proverbial, you didn't need to read the thread.
Instead you just repeated something that was and still is incorrect.
I tend to agree.
I just think it is a mistake by games companies to force people into this position. It has put me right off of two MMORPGs I might have thought about buying.
I will now wait til the Trial period for Fallen Earth and Champions online to try them out before I buy them.
I do not think that is what the companies want. They don't want people to wait 6 months to try their game out and possibly buy it, they want people to pre-order it and play it at release.
I was in the WoW open Beta, and I bought the game before it was released, I was in the CoH beta and I bought the game before release.
I wasn't in AoC or WAR and neither one did I buy before release, both I waited until the trial was available, which was actually quite recently, and then tried them out. I am not suggesting that my SINGLE subscription makes a difference in the grand scheme of things, I am suggesting that my example is probably quite similar to other peoples examples and my behaviour could be seen as a trend of behaviour shared by many people.
Maybe I missed it in another post but looking through I didn't see this answer:
You are not paying the game company for a beta test. You are paying fileplanet to download the beta. The beta is free, the download from the 3rd party, fileplanet, is not.
Fileplanet is a business; they make their money from people who download from their website. This is who is getting your 5 bucks. It pays their overhead so they can offer you the product. They also make a profit; hence making it a 'money making operation' rather than a charity which would just be overhead costs hence the term non-profit.
Everyone got the car analogy wrong. When you walk in to test drive the car, you have to have a valid license to drive. You pay the DMV that money, not Ford, not BMW - a third party.
So.....fileplanet is the DMV, you pay them for your license to drive the beta for free.
Well...even that analogy has problems, but it is closer than the other comments.
EDIT: an easier answer is: you don't HAVE to do anything. You are a free person endowed by the creator with certain inaliable rights - you can always choose not to open your wallet. If you think paying fileplanet money to test a beta is wrong; don't do it. Take control of your wallet and your wallet won't control you. It isn't fileplanet or the gaming company that is flawed, it is your own willpower.
Ok, i see this threads pop up everytime there is a game that is hyped and people want to play the game and either cant/dont have/wont to part with cash to get in. Now I have been betas for more years then some of you been on forums QQing. Let me SPELL this out for you.
BETA is a TESTING phase for a game or software. It is a test to find BUGS in the game/software, NOT a test to see if it fits your style. Now there are 2 Sub-class of BETA: Closed and Open. In both sub-class there are multi-phase of it. Now back to Closed: This is where a NDA (Non-disclosure agreement ) in in place.This is when they are very picky about who gets in and who doesnt. Its mean to help find all the big big big bugs that stand out, one that just show up because you click this or attack that. And as time goes on and they kill this bug and that bug, they let in a few more people (MORE EYES means MORE BUGS KILLED). Ok now they have got the game to good level, and they game/software is close to being launchable, they do whats called a OPEN BETA: This is where they left the NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) so that the COLSED BETA people can tell people about what they have seen, how bad the game was, and how far it came. This is the Marketing part of the beta, thats it. Now they arent as picky about who come because now they need to see it in real world, people pushing things like the servers, the programming because when you have 1k people just looking for bugs that what they do, but when you have 5k+ people then people are trying to find cheats, and holes that the 1k people where not. So they get an Idea of what 5Mil customers will be doing with theyre product. OPEN BETA is still a test to test for problems NOT to test to see if it fits you. The game/software still isnt finished. And in the case of MMOs it still isnt finished until they close the last server down. They are always tweaking it.
Now to then YOU can see if it FITS YOU. That is after Launch, and you buy it, or wait until you can try it on for size for FREE: this is called X DAY FREE TRIAL.
No Open Beta is not for testing you numpty.
This has been repeated several times, but of course what with your extensive skill in beta testing, oh btw I probably been beta testing longer then you had hair on the proverbial, you didn't need to read the thread.
Instead you just repeated something that was and still is incorrect.
Lol, its more like your made that your mommy wouldnt give you her CC # to get a monthly Scrib with Fileplanet, and now nothing anyone is going to say is going to make you happy unless someone says you are right and they are wrong, well guess what your not going to hear from me because YOUR NOT. OPEN BETA ISNT A FREE TO PLAY TRAIL. ITS A BETA YOU QQ CAREBEAR .
Ok, i see this threads pop up everytime there is a game that is hyped and people want to play the game and either cant/dont have/wont to part with cash to get in. Now I have been betas for more years then some of you been on forums QQing. Let me SPELL this out for you.
BETA is a TESTING phase for a game or software. It is a test to find BUGS in the game/software, NOT a test to see if it fits your style. Now there are 2 Sub-class of BETA: Closed and Open. In both sub-class there are multi-phase of it. Now back to Closed: This is where a NDA (Non-disclosure agreement ) in in place.This is when they are very picky about who gets in and who doesnt. Its mean to help find all the big big big bugs that stand out, one that just show up because you click this or attack that. And as time goes on and they kill this bug and that bug, they let in a few more people (MORE EYES means MORE BUGS KILLED). Ok now they have got the game to good level, and they game/software is close to being launchable, they do whats called a OPEN BETA: This is where they left the NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) so that the COLSED BETA people can tell people about what they have seen, how bad the game was, and how far it came. This is the Marketing part of the beta, thats it. Now they arent as picky about who come because now they need to see it in real world, people pushing things like the servers, the programming because when you have 1k people just looking for bugs that what they do, but when you have 5k+ people then people are trying to find cheats, and holes that the 1k people where not. So they get an Idea of what 5Mil customers will be doing with theyre product. OPEN BETA is still a test to test for problems NOT to test to see if it fits you. The game/software still isnt finished. And in the case of MMOs it still isnt finished until they close the last server down. They are always tweaking it.
Now to then YOU can see if it FITS YOU. That is after Launch, and you buy it, or wait until you can try it on for size for FREE: this is called X DAY FREE TRIAL.
No Open Beta is not for testing you numpty.
This has been repeated several times, but of course what with your extensive skill in beta testing, oh btw I probably been beta testing longer then you had hair on the proverbial, you didn't need to read the thread.
Instead you just repeated something that was and still is incorrect.
Lol, its more like your made that your mommy wouldnt give you her CC # to get a monthly Scrib with Fileplanet, and now nothing anyone is going to say is going to make you happy unless someone says you are right and they are wrong, well guess what your not going to hear from me because YOUR NOT. OPEN BETA ISNT A FREE TO PLAY TRAIL. ITS A BETA YOU QQ CAREBEAR .
Agreed. Just because this guy hasn't actually written bug reports or seen how devs are testing the game during open beta, doesn't mean it isn't a test phase.
There are an infinite number of aspects being tested during open beta. They need to know where the flaws are when they have a server at full capacity. For that, they need the server at full capacity, hence they invite enough people to fill their servers to run the final (although exceedingly numerous) tests.
Yes, the devs know that all 2000+ people on the server aren't writing bug reports, yes they know that most (hopefully) of the bugs have been worked out. But what they don't know is how the game will perform with 2000 folks on at once. Show me another way they can run these tests without inviting 2000 people to open beta.
Open beta is the final stage of testing.
Show me one beta test email or ingame message that disuaded you from testing the product. Show me one that doesn't emphasize the importance that it is a test phase. You can't.
Just because you've never tested during the beta doesn't mean the devs weren't using your presence for their own tests.
If they are lucky, there is an added PR benefit. But it doesn't always work that way - look at what happened to VG. VG is a prime example of how testing was more important to the beta then the PR.
EDIT: and besides; to OP; you are paying fileplanet for the download service, you aren't paying the game company a dime. Your problem isn't with the developing company - it is with the 3rd party who is offering you a service. Still don't think that's right - you can always choose to close your wallet.
They shouldnt,thats why I quit pursueing the The Mortal Online beta testing due to them considering preorders for beta testing.
Honestly, look what happened with Fallen Earth. They started the closed beta the same way. When their servers were deserted from the lack of people willing to pay File Planet for their shite service, they gave it free.
The choice is simple: pay or wait. Quit whining, though. Please.
Don't pay for it...wait for the trial. It should last that long. Some games everyone gets to beta, some are select. DDO everyone that signed up got in...so that's an example. However the game was out previously, and this incarnation is just a F2P version.
I dont have a file planet / IGN subscriptions, yet I'm able to beta test games...I get the beta keys here...
Wait, I am not entitled to test a product that the company wants me to buy?
Then surely there can be no expectation of me buying it.
Which is what I said in the OP.
So your point is?
No, there isn't any expectation of you buying it. And if that's okay with you, I'm sure it's okay with them.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Stress testing finds bugs and performance issues (which are seen in the same light as bugs by customers.)
So yes, developers do gain insight from open betas.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I pay for a fileplanet sub didn't really get it for beta got it for fast downloads on all sorts of files...haha I thought I would never sub to fileplanet but for 6 bucks I have used it more than alot of stuff I pay more. on top I get into some betas which is cool.... I always thought you had to be super lucky to get into a beta anyways. With my fileplanet sub I have got to beta test alot of games so far.
Bottom line you are entitled to nothing! Go into Mcdonalds order a burger but first say you want to bite into it test it out then decide if you wanna buy it. Self entitled generation strikes again. Here is a free tip "you are not the center of the world"
Isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy?
A niche game marketed to a select group only, will be a niche game, because everyone else will avoid it.
Now I suggest that if you go to a Ford dealership, looking scruffy, they will still let you drive one of their cars, if you went to a Lamboughini or an Aston Martin dealership then you might get a different response. Is Champions Online marketing itself as an exclusive game only to be played by the few? Is that the idea behind Fallen Earth too? Two games that are currently "open" beta testing to subscribers of Fileplanet only.
Well if that is the case, then they have no problem with people like myself, who might have bought and played their product, saying well if it isn't for me, then I won't bother buying it. I believe that this is NOT the intention of either of those games and that they don't in fact want to limit the people that buy their game or play their game and if their games had subscribers equal to World of Warcraft, they would have a fit of ecstasy .
So I think you are wrong. I think you have plucked something out of thin air that you thought sounded good, but on further inspection turns out to be utter rubbish.
I don't think there is an MMORPG out there that is AIMING for the Niche market, aiming for only a few subscribers. I think they are ALL aiming for the mass market appeal of WoW and the millions of dollars in revenue that it creates each month and most of them fail miserably and end up with a niche game that works to a niche market.
My suggestion in this thread is that maybe if they didn't try and make money out of a supposedly Open Beta test then maybe they wouldn't keep ending up with niche market games.
Sure, they would love to have WoW like numbers... then there's reality. They have a pretty good idea on how many people are going to play their game. They've done studies, polls, and can see that other super hero game. Sure they can beat that mark; however, superheroes remains a niche market.
Nor did I pluck something out of the air. They did limit the OB to a certain amount. In most stores in this area you can no longer get an OB key with your preorder. They shipped a limited quantity to their dealers and those are gone. I was able to get two more keys only by searching through several Gamestops.
Given that the OB is limited, then who do you give away the keys too?
People that are not as likely to buy? No.
Much like the auto dealership. I'm sorry, you're not testing my BMW without showing me you have some capacity or inclination to buy my product. In fact, go to your Ford dealership and tell them that you don't want to buy their car, but just take it for a ride. Tell me us how that works out. Companies reserve their benefits for the most likely customers. They do it all the time. This is no different.
Also, I am not paying anything for this Open Beta. I am paying $5 to pre-order their game. Which comes with a nice benefit of getting into the Open Beta. Frankly I might be a little more mad if they passed out their limited keys to people like you, who are likely not going to be customers, before rewarding me. That might make me want to cancel.
So should they offend you, an unlikely customer.... and not get your business. Or offend me, a proven customer and loose the business that they are counting on?
www.wowwiki.com/Open_beta
You see here's something other companies should copy from Blizzard. How to run an open beta.
If you really want to provide options for your potential customers why not offer a 2 week beta? The first week being pay to play on fileplanet and the second week being free.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Somebody has to host that 5-gigabyte client, and Cryptic sure as hell can't do it. Just trying to patch the game made their servers explode in a fiery ball of death. So companies turn to places like FilePlanet. FilePlanet can handle that kind of load, so they host the files and in return, they make a few bucks from it.
The only drawback is that since I've paid for the beta (even if I didn't pay Cryptic directly), I view the CO beta differently than I view most betas. In a free open beta, I'm paying for a sneak preview of the game by submitting bug reports. Helping them track down bugs is my payment. With Champions Online, I've just paid cash for a sneak preview of the game, so I'm not submitting anything. I hope they got what they needed during closed beta.
No one is forcing anyone to pay to be in open beta. If you pay the $5 pre-order, then you are either planning to buy the game or you are still on the fence on whether the game is for you or not. No one is entitled to open beta...
OP, you're confusing an open beta with a free trial. I'm sure you do want to get a look at all the latest and greatest games on release day, for free, in the same way that I'd like to get laid by a different supermodel every night of the week, but the reality is that the industry has never worked that way. MMOs don't start offering free trials until months after release. Open beta, despite what you may wish, is not an invitation for the cheapskate masses to come in for free samples. There is still testing going on, and these game companies have much more to be concerned about than some idiot who can't afford five bucks.
If you wanted to see Champions and FE for free, you had ample opportunity to do so as they took thousands of beta testers over the past year.
Pay up or stfu.
Thing is, I am pretty sure it is not ok with them.
I am pretty sure that as a company with Shareholders and with creditors that it is not ok with those people that the company just alienates customers and reduces the possible market for their product.
I think if the MMORPG community were a little stronger in their voice in this matter that this process of only allowing Beta testers through a company that forced them to pay would end in a heartbeat.
These companies aren't making games for the fun of it, they are making games for money. When they act in a way which reduces the chances of their income you can beat there are bean counters who will stand up and say...hey, how about you don't do that?