Fun actually warps our perception of distance too. 'Fun' worlds do seem bigger. That's why people think Millenium City is 'very large' when in MMO terms it is very small.
The question you should be asking is...Is the game fun ?
I found it to be fun.
No, that question is not the one you should be asking, because frankly, buying, subscribing and possibly lifetime-ing a game like CO is better done with a bit of foresight beyond the first 5 hours of gameplay.
Almost every game is fun initially, and its not actually hard to put out a game that is fun and novel and cool for a few hours if you just frontload 3 years+ of development time to the first 20 levels or so.
But we are talking from MMO veteran to MMO veteran here, and most people by now have found things they put great emphasis on, and other things they dont care strongly about.
CO was fun to me too.... a whole 4 hours or so. Afterwards, things like the small world, the extremely easy content and the lacking diversity in gameplay caught up with me. I cant go back to those 4 initial hours, even if they were fun, because I now know how it is. 10 Hours later, I can now safely say that the game was fun initially, and based upon that initial reaction I might have bought it if it werent for the cash shop, but after more consideration and playtime, I have never seen an MMO that wore out so fast in terms of holding my interest.
So the question "Is it fun?" is far too complex, and will get different answers depending on when, and whom, and with how much knowledge you ask it.
The small world of CO is a very good reason to doubt the game will remain fun. Many people have criticized Age of Conan for its disjointed, small zone policy.... and yet it has much more of a world than CO does, and will in the next few years.
... I did, and in my opinion it dosen't No one travels by running just like in other MMO's no one travels by walking. A better comparison would be flying/sprinting/whatever seeing as every one has access to those modes of transport when they leave the tutorial.
Yes... in THIS game.
But here's the thing...
My Human avatar in WWIIoL can't fly.
My Human avatar in WoW can't fly.
My Human avatar in The Chronicles of Spellborn can't fly.
So tell me... how do I compare the speed of those avatars with a FLYING SUPERHERO?
And if you think about it - the travel times for a flying character should be less - suggesting the world size of CO is even less?
Simple, you use the mode of transport that every one uses to get around day to day in whatever game you are measuring. At the end of day that is how long it will take to get from A-B. In CO absolutely no one will walk around the zone unless they are going from spawn to spawn and the next spawn is 'in range'. Not trying to be argumentative here just trying to sugest a better metric:). Incidentally I found the zones 'plenty big enough' but felt there could be more of them.
... Simple, you use the mode of transport that every one uses to get around day to day in whatever game you are measuring. At the end of day that is how long it will take to get from A-B. In CO absolutely no one will walk around the zone unless they are going from spawn to spawn and the next spawn is 'in range'. Not trying to be argumentative here just trying to sugest a better metric:). Incidentally I found the zones 'plenty big enough' but felt there could be more of them.
Okay.
So CO measured about 1/5th the size of the next smallest MMO I have ever measured - and that was doing it at a run.
By your method you should use the fastest travel mode available... that would be rank 3 teleport?
Probably 10 times faster at least?
You just 'shrunk' the apparent size of the world down from about 96 square minutes travel to about 3 square minutes travel.
or about 30 times smaller.
Making CO about 150 times smaller than the next smallest MMO on the list.
Edit: Do you see why you have to try to use similar modes of travel from game to game now?
Yes indeed. But why would you not measure at the speed you actually move at? Thats like measuring your favourite fantasy MMO holding the shift key to walk. Anyway size isn't everything as they say imho large featureless spaces are far worse than being 'too small'. Put another way content is king. Anyway god luck with your project.
Edit: I agree you need to use similar modes of travel i.e the speed that everyone actually goes at rather than some artificial rate (walking)
Was Monster Island and Lehmeria put in as equal sizes as M City? That seems about right though. WoW has been out for 5 years. Comparing it to a recent MMO Age of Conan its about 20 to 30% smaller at the time when it came out (not now). Comparing it to Warhammer Online its 50 to 60% smaller then that before tomb kings came out (Thats not including Scenerios).
No. MI and Lehmeria not counted yet - i would love for someone to measure them (see earlier in the thread).
The thing about these sizes though (Your AoC and WAR reference) is that no-one has actually done what I have tried to do and actually done a timed run anywhere.
Distances are misleading. Our perception of time is misleading - particularly when under stress - which is what happens when you are dodging mobs etc.
Early in this thread people said Millenium City was "Huge" - no it's not really. The content makes it appear bigger than it is. That's not a bad thing - but it does warp our perception of distance.
When Darkfall came out people claimed it took hours or days to cross the map - about 3 hours.
EvE players claim "days" - the best (most reliable) source I have at the moment claims 4 hours (I will have to do a trial since the actaul reports vary from 4 hours to 3 days).
I can do the WAR. I will do that tonight when I get home.
Please do!
Please use the most basic human character you can - unbuffed.
A new character if possible.
At a run - not at a walk and not at a sprint.
You don't need to run in a ruler straight line - but as close as possible. And if you can't get all the way that is fine too - you saw my notes in post #33.
The most important thing is that other people can see what you did and repeat the experiment under much the same conditions.
(Like a proper science experiment) If more people do it then we can average the results.
Edit: oh and for games like WAR and TCoS you can do area by area - it's a PITA but that is life.
WAR is really easy. Every area takes me 5 Minutes and 40 Seconds to run North to South and also east to west. They are each a exact square. I did 5 of them just to make sure. 2 in Chaos Teir 4. 1 In Orc and Goblin teir 3 and Teir 1 Dark Elf. Thats including half of the Opposite side. For war you only play in half of that area. The other half is Order or Destruction controlled. I also did both Altdorf and Inevitable City which are both 5 Minutes and 40 seconds both ways. Lets see there is 29 Areas. This is not including Land of the dead.
Yes indeed. But why would you not measure at the speed you actually move at? Thats like measuring your favourite fantasy MMO holding the shift key to walk. Anyway size isn't everything as they say imho large featureless spaces are far worse than being 'too small'. Put another way content is king. Anyway god luck with your project.
Edit: I agree you need to use similar modes of travel i.e the speed that everyone actually goes at rather than some artificial rate (walking)
If you don't use regular walking speed. Then you don't know how big the world is. If you use the slowest on every game then you get an exact measurement of how big the game is. Everyone has a slow speed. Not everyones speed is the same when you go faster. For example riding a horse is 50% faster. Is Flight 50% faster in CO. No then thats not an exact comparison.
... WAR is really easy. Every area takes me 5 Minutes and 40 Seconds to run North to South and also east to west. They are each a exact square. I did 5 of them just to make sure. 2 in Chaos Teir 4. 1 In Orc and Goblin teir 3 and Teir 1 Dark Elf. Thats including half of the Opposite side. For war you only play in half of that area. The other half is Order or Destruction controlled. I also did both Altdorf and Inevitable City which are both 5 Minutes and 40 seconds both ways. Lets see there is 29 Areas. This is not including Land of the dead.
Thank you very much.
The calculation is easy in that case.
5.66min x 5.66min = 32.04 square minutes travel by area
32.04 x 29 = 929 square minutes travel total.
929 / 3600 = 0.258 square hours travel.
Check back using hours.
5.66 / 60 = 0.0943333
0.094333 x 0.094333 = 0.008898
0.008898 x 29 = 0.258
This surprises me as that makes the game very slightly smaller than Pirates of the Burning Sea (measured at 0.275)
When I played Beta I thought it was much bigger than that?
Then again, I was playing and fighting. Strange how your perception of distance can be warped when you are involved in another activity.
Thank you for your measurements and information - I will credit you for your work.
... WAR is really easy. Every area takes me 5 Minutes and 40 Seconds to run North to South and also east to west. They are each a exact square. I did 5 of them just to make sure. 2 in Chaos Teir 4. 1 In Orc and Goblin teir 3 and Teir 1 Dark Elf. Thats including half of the Opposite side. For war you only play in half of that area. The other half is Order or Destruction controlled. I also did both Altdorf and Inevitable City which are both 5 Minutes and 40 seconds both ways. Lets see there is 29 Areas. This is not including Land of the dead.
Thank you very much.
The calculation is easy in that case.
5.66min x 5.66min = 32.04 square minutes travel by area
32.04 x 29 = 929 square minutes travel total.
929 / 3600 = 0.258 square hours travel.
Check back using hours.
5.66 / 60 = 0.0943333
0.094333 x 0.094333 = 0.008898
0.008898 x 29 = 0.258
This surprises me as that makes the game very slightly smaller than Pirates of the Burning Sea (measured at 0.275)
When I played Beta I thought it was much bigger than that?
Then again, I was playing and fighting. Strange how your perception of distance can be warped when you are involved in another activity.
Thank you for your measurements and information - I will credit you for your work.
... If you don't use regular walking speed. Then you don't know how big the world is. If you use the slowest on every game then you get an exact measurement of how big the game is. Everyone has a slow speed. Not everyones speed is the same when you go faster. For example riding a horse is 50% faster. Is Flight 50% faster in CO. No then thats not an exact comparison.
Even in CO everyone has different travel speed. Travel modes have ranks that you can advance. So a level 10 Hover Disc is different to a level 40 Disc. That is in turn very different to Teleport.
We don't notice so much because distances are small in this game. If we had flight times of an hour or more then the 'slower' characters would have trouble keeping up and we would notice.
... If you don't use regular walking speed. Then you don't know how big the world is. If you use the slowest on every game then you get an exact measurement of how big the game is. Everyone has a slow speed. Not everyones speed is the same when you go faster. For example riding a horse is 50% faster. Is Flight 50% faster in CO. No then thats not an exact comparison.
Even in CO everyone has different travel speed. Travel modes have ranks that you can advance. So a level 10 Hover Disc is different to a level 40 Disc. That is in turn very different to Teleport.
We don't notice so much because distances are small in this game. If we had flight times of an hour or more then the 'slower' characters would have trouble keeping up and we would notice.
Exactly thats the reason why you take the move from the slowest speeds. No matter what the slowest speed is always the slowest speed.
Yes indeed. But why would you not measure at the speed you actually move at? Thats like measuring your favourite fantasy MMO holding the shift key to walk. Anyway size isn't everything as they say imho large featureless spaces are far worse than being 'too small'. Put another way content is king. Anyway god luck with your project.
Edit: I agree you need to use similar modes of travel i.e the speed that everyone actually goes at rather than some artificial rate (walking)
If you don't use regular walking speed. Then you don't know how big the world is. If you use the slowest on every game then you get an exact measurement of how big the game is. Everyone has a slow speed. Not everyones speed is the same when you go faster. For example riding a horse is 50% faster. Is Flight 50% faster in CO. No then thats not an exact comparison.
Fair enough then you should also use the slowest speed (walk rather than run) in WoW War etc. Personally I would use the fastest speed available to all players. That would be the slowest travel power, though the differences between them seem pretty negligible to me.
I have to say that I think the exercise is somewhat pointless as the 'feel' of zones are whats important. In CO I think they have it about right. I did notice that they seemed to reduce the population limits by about half during OB, presumably as a response to people complaining about other players stealing shinies. That was a shame as I think that was about right before (though obviously some quests where a bit of a problem but nothing major).
Fair enough then you should also use the slowest speed (walk rather than run) in WoW War etc. Personally I would use the fastest speed available to all players. That would be the slowest travel power, though the differences between them seem pretty negligible to me. FWIW the reason I didn't do this was because in some games you can also crawl and sneak. So that is considerably slower again.
Also, in games like EvE and PotBS there are no discrete speed levels (walking, running & sprinting) but you can move at any speed you like from zero to max - so the slowest speed there is 'just moving' - hardly a reliable measure for any kind of benchmark.
I have to say that I think the exercise is somewhat pointless as the 'feel' of zones are whats important. In CO I think they have it about right. I did notice that they seemed to reduce the population limits by about half during OB, presumably as a response to people complaining about other players stealing shinies. That was a shame as I think that was about right before (though obviously some quests where a bit of a problem but nothing major). But, as I have already said, the 'feel' is very misleading in terms of actual size in any game.
Champions Online 'feels' bigger than it is because of all the mobs and stuff to do within the (small) zones.
At the other extreme, WWIIoL 'feels' bigger than it is because of the complete absence of mobs and stuff to do within the (very large) zone. Also, in games you have the attention span of the individual to consider.
Some people get upset if they have to travel for more than about 60 seconds... others are happy just to enjoy the scenery.
Then use the fastest speed available to all as your base line in each game. That would the slowest un advanatged travel speed. Using run in CO is as meaningless as using crawl in MMO 'X', every one has a travel power out of the tutorial and from then on no one walks to get A-B. Just use the slowest travel power.
Using run is like using crawl in other MMO's absolutely meaningless as no one whatsoever uses that mode of transport (except in the tutorial).
Anyway good luck with your project.....lucky you don't have to worry about cataloguing Dark and Light lol.
Comments
Last line in post #33 is for you.
Fun actually warps our perception of distance too. 'Fun' worlds do seem bigger. That's why people think Millenium City is 'very large' when in MMO terms it is very small.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
No, that question is not the one you should be asking, because frankly, buying, subscribing and possibly lifetime-ing a game like CO is better done with a bit of foresight beyond the first 5 hours of gameplay.
Almost every game is fun initially, and its not actually hard to put out a game that is fun and novel and cool for a few hours if you just frontload 3 years+ of development time to the first 20 levels or so.
But we are talking from MMO veteran to MMO veteran here, and most people by now have found things they put great emphasis on, and other things they dont care strongly about.
CO was fun to me too.... a whole 4 hours or so. Afterwards, things like the small world, the extremely easy content and the lacking diversity in gameplay caught up with me. I cant go back to those 4 initial hours, even if they were fun, because I now know how it is. 10 Hours later, I can now safely say that the game was fun initially, and based upon that initial reaction I might have bought it if it werent for the cash shop, but after more consideration and playtime, I have never seen an MMO that wore out so fast in terms of holding my interest.
So the question "Is it fun?" is far too complex, and will get different answers depending on when, and whom, and with how much knowledge you ask it.
The small world of CO is a very good reason to doubt the game will remain fun. Many people have criticized Age of Conan for its disjointed, small zone policy.... and yet it has much more of a world than CO does, and will in the next few years.
Yes... in THIS game.
But here's the thing...
My Human avatar in WWIIoL can't fly.
My Human avatar in WoW can't fly.
My Human avatar in The Chronicles of Spellborn can't fly.
So tell me... how do I compare the speed of those avatars with a FLYING SUPERHERO?
And if you think about it - the travel times for a flying character should be less - suggesting the world size of CO is even less?
Simple, you use the mode of transport that every one uses to get around day to day in whatever game you are measuring. At the end of day that is how long it will take to get from A-B. In CO absolutely no one will walk around the zone unless they are going from spawn to spawn and the next spawn is 'in range'. Not trying to be argumentative here just trying to sugest a better metric:). Incidentally I found the zones 'plenty big enough' but felt there could be more of them.
Okay.
So CO measured about 1/5th the size of the next smallest MMO I have ever measured - and that was doing it at a run.
By your method you should use the fastest travel mode available... that would be rank 3 teleport?
Probably 10 times faster at least?
You just 'shrunk' the apparent size of the world down from about 96 square minutes travel to about 3 square minutes travel.
or about 30 times smaller.
Making CO about 150 times smaller than the next smallest MMO on the list.
Edit: Do you see why you have to try to use similar modes of travel from game to game now?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Yes indeed. But why would you not measure at the speed you actually move at? Thats like measuring your favourite fantasy MMO holding the shift key to walk. Anyway size isn't everything as they say imho large featureless spaces are far worse than being 'too small'. Put another way content is king. Anyway god luck with your project.
Edit: I agree you need to use similar modes of travel i.e the speed that everyone actually goes at rather than some artificial rate (walking)
No. MI and Lehmeria not counted yet - i would love for someone to measure them (see earlier in the thread).
The thing about these sizes though (Your AoC and WAR reference) is that no-one has actually done what I have tried to do and actually done a timed run anywhere.
Distances are misleading. Our perception of time is misleading - particularly when under stress - which is what happens when you are dodging mobs etc.
Early in this thread people said Millenium City was "Huge" - no it's not really. The content makes it appear bigger than it is. That's not a bad thing - but it does warp our perception of distance.
When Darkfall came out people claimed it took hours or days to cross the map - about 3 hours.
EvE players claim "days" - the best (most reliable) source I have at the moment claims 4 hours (I will have to do a trial since the actaul reports vary from 4 hours to 3 days).
I can do the WAR. I will do that tonight when I get home.
Please do!
Please use the most basic human character you can - unbuffed.
A new character if possible.
At a run - not at a walk and not at a sprint.
You don't need to run in a ruler straight line - but as close as possible. And if you can't get all the way that is fine too - you saw my notes in post #33.
The most important thing is that other people can see what you did and repeat the experiment under much the same conditions.
(Like a proper science experiment) If more people do it then we can average the results.
Edit: oh and for games like WAR and TCoS you can do area by area - it's a PITA but that is life.
WAR is really easy. Every area takes me 5 Minutes and 40 Seconds to run North to South and also east to west. They are each a exact square. I did 5 of them just to make sure. 2 in Chaos Teir 4. 1 In Orc and Goblin teir 3 and Teir 1 Dark Elf. Thats including half of the Opposite side. For war you only play in half of that area. The other half is Order or Destruction controlled. I also did both Altdorf and Inevitable City which are both 5 Minutes and 40 seconds both ways. Lets see there is 29 Areas. This is not including Land of the dead.
If you don't use regular walking speed. Then you don't know how big the world is. If you use the slowest on every game then you get an exact measurement of how big the game is. Everyone has a slow speed. Not everyones speed is the same when you go faster. For example riding a horse is 50% faster. Is Flight 50% faster in CO. No then thats not an exact comparison.
Thank you very much.
The calculation is easy in that case.
5.66min x 5.66min = 32.04 square minutes travel by area
32.04 x 29 = 929 square minutes travel total.
929 / 3600 = 0.258 square hours travel.
Check back using hours.
5.66 / 60 = 0.0943333
0.094333 x 0.094333 = 0.008898
0.008898 x 29 = 0.258
This surprises me as that makes the game very slightly smaller than Pirates of the Burning Sea (measured at 0.275)
When I played Beta I thought it was much bigger than that?
Then again, I was playing and fighting. Strange how your perception of distance can be warped when you are involved in another activity.
Thank you for your measurements and information - I will credit you for your work.
See here.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2591865#2591865
BTW - if you can think of a good name for the unit we are measuring here rather than "Distance Time Unit" or "Square Hours Travel" then please do!
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Thank you very much.
The calculation is easy in that case.
5.66min x 5.66min = 32.04 square minutes travel by area
32.04 x 29 = 929 square minutes travel total.
929 / 3600 = 0.258 square hours travel.
Check back using hours.
5.66 / 60 = 0.0943333
0.094333 x 0.094333 = 0.008898
0.008898 x 29 = 0.258
This surprises me as that makes the game very slightly smaller than Pirates of the Burning Sea (measured at 0.275)
When I played Beta I thought it was much bigger than that?
Then again, I was playing and fighting. Strange how your perception of distance can be warped when you are involved in another activity.
Thank you for your measurements and information - I will credit you for your work.
See here.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2591865#2591865
BTW - if you can think of a good name for the unit we are measuring here rather than "Distance Time Unit" or "Square Hours Travel" then please do!
I am now watching that thread.
Even in CO everyone has different travel speed. Travel modes have ranks that you can advance. So a level 10 Hover Disc is different to a level 40 Disc. That is in turn very different to Teleport.
We don't notice so much because distances are small in this game. If we had flight times of an hour or more then the 'slower' characters would have trouble keeping up and we would notice.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Even in CO everyone has different travel speed. Travel modes have ranks that you can advance. So a level 10 Hover Disc is different to a level 40 Disc. That is in turn very different to Teleport.
We don't notice so much because distances are small in this game. If we had flight times of an hour or more then the 'slower' characters would have trouble keeping up and we would notice.
Exactly thats the reason why you take the move from the slowest speeds.
No matter what the slowest speed is always the slowest speed. 
If you don't use regular walking speed. Then you don't know how big the world is. If you use the slowest on every game then you get an exact measurement of how big the game is. Everyone has a slow speed. Not everyones speed is the same when you go faster. For example riding a horse is 50% faster. Is Flight 50% faster in CO. No then thats not an exact comparison.
Fair enough then you should also use the slowest speed (walk rather than run) in WoW War etc. Personally I would use the fastest speed available to all players. That would be the slowest travel power, though the differences between them seem pretty negligible to me.
I have to say that I think the exercise is somewhat pointless as the 'feel' of zones are whats important. In CO I think they have it about right. I did notice that they seemed to reduce the population limits by about half during OB, presumably as a response to people complaining about other players stealing shinies. That was a shame as I think that was about right before (though obviously some quests where a bit of a problem but nothing major).
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Then use the fastest speed available to all as your base line in each game. That would the slowest un advanatged travel speed. Using run in CO is as meaningless as using crawl in MMO 'X', every one has a travel power out of the tutorial and from then on no one walks to get A-B. Just use the slowest travel power.
Using run is like using crawl in other MMO's absolutely meaningless as no one whatsoever uses that mode of transport (except in the tutorial).
Anyway good luck with your project.....lucky you don't have to worry about cataloguing Dark and Light lol.