Since it isn't likely that I'll ever find out for myself, I was wondering, what do you like about end-game and / or raiding? (I'm not just talking about WoW here; whatever game you play).
Working as a team with others and seeing parts of the game and content that few players ever get to see, have only heard about, but would like to.
I usually don't care if I ever get a drop, I prefer the exposure to the content more than the rewards from it. But if I ever got one, I wouldn't say "no" to it.
I can see where that might be a draw ^^ I'd like to experience it too, but I dunno that I'd like to experience it over and over again like you usually do to get the gear you want from it. If I didn't enjoy leveling as much as I do, I might raid / participate in end-game for the reasons you stated above I would also be more inclined to do small-group endgame (5-man) than raids.
I guess that depends on the game you are playing. Every game doesn't have easily accessible endgame content.
FFXI had extremely difficult content, and it was very diverse. You hardly ever got bored of a particular zone nor did the zones become "obsolete" due to much better gear elsewhere. There was always story attached and plenty areas required you to complete a series of complex tasks to even get to the zone. For instance, to get access to SEA, it wsa a whole series of quests and battles that you had to complete in many different parts of the world. All those stories were rewarded with screenshot CGIs and plenty of story intertwined so it never got boring.
LOTRO Epic books and chapters were the same way. You didn't mind doing them over because you saw something you missed the first time, or were later helping friends. I used to relieve a lot of the fun through THEIR eyes when they got all jazzed about seeing it for the first time as well.
Some games don't have that factor.WAR for instance had no immersion. You simply fought each other until the slider moved, then when it moved enough, you got to fight the king. Everytime you fight him, it's the same exact fight. There really isn't any reward to that as it was just plain boring for most. If your zones/dungeons are just one offs where you simply go in and beat a monster with nothing attached, yeah... that would get stale. But there's nothing saying that you only play games like that.
Originally posted by Dafong No one has claimed it is a challenge.
The simple truth is, it is harder to log in at a specified time for a specified period to do a specified thing, then it is to log in when you like, for as long as you like to do whatever you like.
You can't handle that simple truth so keep talking bullshit about it being a challenge, something NO-ONE has said.
Use whatever word you like; "challenge", "hard", "difficult" .. none of them hold water.
The highlighted part. If I log in to join a 9pm raid, is that "harder" than logging in to join a 9pm 5-man dungeon group?
Of course not, because none of them were used in that context. The context that they were used in is that they are HARDER, MORE DIFFICULT and MORE CHALLENGING then solo or grouping.
To the second sentence.
Do you HAVE to log in at 9pm to do a 5 man group? No....do you have to log in at a specified time to run a 25 man high end raid? yes you do.
So surely one should offer more as a reward then the other?
Lets face some facts, you have made up your mind that you should get the same as people that spend hours committed to raiding and nothing I say will change that.
Regardless of what I say you will twist it to suit your own agenda, making silly comparisons and stretching what is said out of context because you don't have an argument against the fact that being in a high end raid guild requires a level of commitment that playing solo does not require and that this level of commitment should be rewarded.
There is no answer against that because it is logically sound.
So twist away, pretend we said it was challenging, or hard, or difficult, pretend that somehow playing solo is exactly the same as playing in a high end raid guild and requires not one iota of extra effort or that MMORPG as a genre shouldn't reward effort, because its not like that is a fundamental part of what makes them different from FPS.
Do without me though, cause I find this argument a bit silly. I find you a bit silly. You offer up no logical alternative to counter the points I have raised and have spent pages being an obtuse game of argumentation.
Since it isn't likely that I'll ever find out for myself, I was wondering, what do you like about end-game and / or raiding? (I'm not just talking about WoW here; whatever game you play).
Working as a team with others and seeing parts of the game and content that few players ever get to see, have only heard about, but would like to.
I usually don't care if I ever get a drop, I prefer the exposure to the content more than the rewards from it. But if I ever got one, I wouldn't say "no" to it.
I can see where that might be a draw ^^ I'd like to experience it too, but I dunno that I'd like to experience it over and over again like you usually do to get the gear you want from it. If I didn't enjoy leveling as much as I do, I might raid / participate in end-game for the reasons you stated above I would also be more inclined to do small-group endgame (5-man) than raids.
I guess that depends on the game you are playing. Every game doesn't have easily accessible endgame content.
FFXI had extremely difficult content, and it was very diverse. You hardly ever got bored of a particular zone nor did the zones become "obsolete" due to much better gear elsewhere. There was always story attached and plenty areas required you to complete a series of complex tasks to even get to the zone. For instance, to get access to SEA, it wsa a whole series of quests and battles that you had to complete in many different parts of the world. All those stories were rewarded with screenshot CGIs and plenty of story intertwined so it never got boring.
LOTRO Epic books and chapters were the same way. You didn't mind doing them over because you saw something you missed the first time, or were later helping friends. I used to relieve a lot of the fun through THEIR eyes when they got all jazzed about seeing it for the first time as well.
Some games don't have that factor.WAR for instance had no immersion. You simply fought each other until the slider moved, then when it moved enough, you got to fight the king. Everytime you fight him, it's the same exact fight. There really isn't any reward to that as it was just plain boring for most. If your zones/dungeons are just one offs where you simply go in and beat a monster with nothing attached, yeah... that would get stale. But there's nothing saying that you only play games like that.
True. FFXI's mission system was great. LOTRO's was good too, but not so much when you had to go through it every time you made an alt. I think I did book 1 volume 1 more times than there are classes. Figure that one out. The difficulty of FFXI's missions helped ensure that they lasted you a long time too, so things didn't get old and repetitive as quickly as raiding in games like EQ or WoW, where you raid dungeons with 40 people looking for 3 different types of gear. I think it's ironic though that FFXI's end-game is a bit less of a grind, considering the game as a whole is known for being one of the most grindy games out there... haha xD Anyways... I like your take on it.
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Everybody needs a game to suit their play styles. You cannot have solo content = group content. those 2 are polar oppisites Your going to end up pissing off both crowds if you try. Group/raid content will always have greater rewards, tough live with it or leave the PVE MMO's alone, because its not for you.
Even if there is a strictly solo centric game where you can do anything solo, that game will be nothing but a flash in the pan lasting no longer than an single player RPG. It will either be 1 of 2 things; 1) a massive grind of epic proportions (to limit people from getting everything so fast), or 2) everyone running around wearing the exact same thing because any monkey with 2 brain cells can get the stuff. Ya thats really fun. Might as well just give everybody everything at the start
I hope you guys get your solo centric game, just like I am hoping for another grouping game like ffxi since i beat that horse to death over a 4 year span.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
As already stated, problem with common implementation of raids is that as a group content, it rewards single person which is wrong in concept.
You are looking at the picture too literally.
The example would be of Manchester United spending £25m on a player, it is ONLY benefiting that player.....surely the benefit is to the entire team by gaining a highly sought after and skilled player?
The same applies, the benefit is not to a single player as that single player is a part of a team, or guild as it is called in most MMORPGs, and that single players growth and strength are of benefit to the guild.
Also over the course of an evenings raiding there is more then a single player being rewarded. Most boss mobs in WoW drop 4 items in 25 man raids, and its easy to kill 3 a night, which is 12 items, which means that half your raid is rewarded. Not just a single person.
Originally posted by Dafong You are looking at the picture too literally.
The example would be of Manchester United spending £25m on a player, it is ONLY benefiting that player.....surely the benefit is to the entire team by gaining a highly sought after and skilled player?The same applies, the benefit is not to a single player as that single player is a part of a team, or guild as it is called in most MMORPGs, and that single players growth and strength are of benefit to the guild.
Also over the course of an evenings raiding there is more then a single player being rewarded. Most boss mobs in WoW drop 4 items in 25 man raids, and its easy to kill 3 a night, which is 12 items, which means that half your raid is rewarded. Not just a single person.
You really fail in making analogy or understanding one. Please, avoid it in the future.
The difficulty of a given encounter is based on two main things:
the relative gear-vs-power relationship between the player(s) and the boss
the player skill demand of the fight (whether you need to move around, interrupt abilities; that sort of thing.)
Note that neither of these two primary determiners of difficulty involve player count. A 1-man or 5-man boss can very easily end up being more difficult than a raid boss.
So is raiding or soloing harder? I don't know. You haven't given enough information to answer the question. I can very easily imagine WOW 1-man bosses being created which are far harder to kill than 25-man Heroic Raid bosses with Hard Mode.
What's different in grouping?
Your individual contribution is watered down a bit (you're no longer 100% of the battle equation.) If you rock, this makes things harder. If you suck, this makes things easier.
Role-playing happens. That is, players can fullfill specialized roles in a group (which is where I find a lot of the fun in RPGs.)
What's different in raiding?
Your individual contribution is even more watered down. If you rock, this makes things harder. If you suck, this makes things easier.
You might need to schedule gametime. (well this actually isn't necessary. With appropriate raid-forming tools, and shorter raid durations you would get rid of most of the reason for scheduling raids.)
Point being that raiding is neither harder or more difficult than 1-man or 5-man content. There's only a slight change in that your skill is being averaged amongst a group (which could make things harder or easier, depending on your skill.)
Imagine a raid instance you know. Now imagine you take 24 NPC teammates through instead. All bosses are the same. The NPC teammates even make the same mistakes (and even react randomly to you if you tell them "Stop standing in the fire, idiot!"; sometimes they move, sometimes they yell back at you.) How you'd play your character is exactly the same as if you were playing with 24 real teammates (ie if you're a healer, you heal the NPC tank.)
The above is a 1-man instance. It's 1-man content. Solo.
It's exactly as hard as raiding.
The Point: Raid, Solo, or Group content is exactly as hard as developers make it. Apart from skill being averaged out (hurting skilled players, helping the less skilled,) it's exactly the same difficulty.
(normally I'd throw out my "raids are merely more tedious" jibe here, but as I wrote this out I realized that's not an inherent trait of raiding...it's mostly just an irritating result of the content being so much longer than normal content. With a quick Looking For Raid interface (cross-server naturally) and 30-60 min raid times, things would be almost equally tedious as Dungeon content -- in other words, not really tedious at all!
The only unavoidable disadvantage is people are dumber in groups. Mob mentality makes a large group's actions slower than a small group.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You have just made an entirely too long post about something that I pointed out was wrong on page 2.
You are judging whether raiding is more difficult based on skill level, when that is not a criteria that is measurable. Players that raid and players that do not raid all display high and low levels of skill. To judge anything by a subjective arbitrary measure is pointless.
Why not judge the two by factors in real life that are measurable and objective.
Like the time it takes. A purely objective measurement.
The commitment it takes. Another purely objective measurement. If you HAVE to be somewhere at a certain time you have to commit more then someone who can turn up when they like....if they bother to turn up at all.
Why use a subjective measurement that in the long run means nothing and ignore the objective measurements that are there in front of you.
Some game play is mutually exclusive. The better you make the solo game, the more the group game suffers and vice a versa. For example, imagine an end game with raiding, but you could solo and get anything, xp, loot, epics, etc., that the raiders could get. "But they can raid just for fun if they want to, no one is stopping them!" seems like a retarded argument to me. No one would raid, even die hard raiders that play games just for raiding, to get items they could obtain in solo play. That would pretty much take the fun out of raiding, since it would be pointless. Yes, you could do it "just for fun" but I doubt it's fun anymore if there's no point to it.
If the mechanic is not fun enough to do for common rewards, then it's not a mechanic that belongs in a game. If the only reason to do a raid is to get some shiney, then that's a mechanic we could use a heck of a lot less of. Make sure you have alternate paths to your content to let everyone enjoy it. If people want to do it raiding because they enjoy raiding, then great. If they want to do it with a small group, that should be fine as well.
There should be no mechanic in a game that is not fun. The more roadblocks you put up like that, the more people will look to play something else.
Does raiding refers to the WoW type scheduled work?
WoW has the best completed, polished "system/interface/representation of what's happening" in the many MMOs that I have played, but it introduced the worse idea to the MMORPG world, which is raiding.
Come on farming the identical, expectable and non-interfered instances every week is very boring.
And now 99% of the MMORPGs are focus on such "endgame" (introduced since EQ? but I feel that hunting and exploring in EQ was quite fun, without the need of those stupid kill 10/10 pigs quests), and have the leveling process being boring or have the feeling that gear/gameplay experience before reaching the level cap is pointless, all you want to do is to reach the level cap to actually start your game and everything before that is the suffering.
MMO played (paid): AION DragonRaja Dungeons & Dragons Online Lineage Lineage 2 Tibia Ultima Online Warhammer Online World of Warcraft
MMO tried: Atlantica Online Darkfall Dead Frontier Dungeon Runners EverQuest Lord of the Rings Online Monster Hunter Frontier Online Ragnarok Online Requiem Runes of Magic Runescape The 4th Coming
You have just made an entirely too long post about something that I pointed out was wrong on page 2.
Well, it's only natural considering that your assertion is wrong.
Your continued contention that raiders deserve more consideration/reward on the basis of time and commitment fails because there is absolutely no demonstrable difference between the following:
1. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does solo content 'til 10pm.
2. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does group content 'til 10pm.
3. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does raid content 'til 10pm.
Three people with identical time investment and commitment.
So why does guy #3 get the lions share of developer attention and reward?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Let me sketch out some reasonable change to current raid(group) mechanics.
As I stated, I firmly believe that group content rewards should go back to group content. This would include the change of raid mechanics and their rewards.
In order to offer guild rewards, guild system needs to be enchanced for following features: - tiers - guild exp - leader skills - consumables
And player character nees to be enchanced for following attribute: - guild exp and level
As a raid leader, you can obtain a quest from NPC. The objective of the quest will be to defeat a boss or certain chain of bosses(one unlocks another). After successfull raid, you recieve consumeables and guild exp. Guild exp are used in 3 ways: 1) to charge your tier rank that affects maximum of your guild members 2) to purchase a formula for crafting 3) used to advanced in your guild level
Each member of the guild that guild leader belongs to will be rewarded by guild exp. From here, you will have to decide wheter you use your exp to donate a decaying guild tier rank to maintain your guild, or you save exp for personal advancement, or you use them for raid leading.
With obtained formula and raid consumables drops, you can compose an item - let's name it 'Order' that will unleash your leadership skill. Leadership skill is based on your guild level and requires performing certain skills and spells in specific order within your guild mates in your your raid group. Guild level determines the 'raw' strength of the unleashed skill, while composition of 'Order' will determine the length of the chain, allowing you to use 'Order' with limited effect, ie. for smaller groups.
Would it be more fun for you?
EDIT: Don't forget it is a draft only and basicaly can be used not for raids(in technical term) only but groups and PVP too. You can make some funny things from here like certain bosses 'requiring' certain leadrship skills to beat or such.
Originally posted by Dafong Like the time it takes. A purely objective measurement. The commitment it takes. Another purely objective measurement. If you HAVE to be somewhere at a certain time you have to commit more then someone who can turn up when they like....if they bother to turn up at all.
These aren't "difficulty".
If something takes 3 hours it isn't harder, it is longer.
Basically I'm measuring difficulty based on whether things are more difficult and you're measuring it based on additional non-difficulty factors, such as duration.
They're also not specific to raiding (merely to the current implementation of raiding you see in most games.) Which is why raiding doesn't inherently deserve greater rewards.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well, it's only natural considering that your assertion is wrong. Your continued contention that raiders deserve more consideration/reward on the basis of time and commitment fails because there is absolutely no demonstrable difference between the following: 1. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does solo content 'til 10pm.
2. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does group content 'til 10pm.
3. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does raid content 'til 10pm. Three people with identical time investment and commitment. So why does guy #3 get the lions share of developer attention and reward?
This is like arguing that you have the same job as a park keeper because you could go to the park at 9pm when it opens and leave at 5pm when it shuts so why should he get paid for being there?
Do you realise how stupid that is?
How about the fact that he HAS to be there in that time and you don't, you choose to be there, and that the choice is what makes the difference?
If you want to raid, you have to be there between 6pm and 10pm, if you want to solo or do group content, you don't have to be there at 6pm to 10pm, you could roll up at 8pm and leave at 9pm and it would make no difference to your ability to enjoy that content. Doing this in raiding would make a difference to your enjoyment of that content.
Originally posted by Dafong Like the time it takes. A purely objective measurement. The commitment it takes. Another purely objective measurement. If you HAVE to be somewhere at a certain time you have to commit more then someone who can turn up when they like....if they bother to turn up at all.
These aren't "difficulty".
If something takes 3 hours it isn't harder, it is longer.
Basically I'm measuring difficulty based on whether things are more difficult and you're measuring it based on additional non-difficulty factors, such as duration.
They're also not specific to raiding (merely to the current implementation of raiding you see in most games.) Which is why raiding doesn't inherently deserve greater rewards.
Well I have never seen raiding in any game that didn't take longer then solo content, so that is kind of a moot argument, it may not be inherent to raiding but since every single incarnation of raiding has included it we might as well count it.
Also level of skill difficulty is not the major issue here. If it was merely about skill levels then raiding would offer no more rewards, there is no proof that raiding requires any more skill then solo or group content. It is a SUBJECTIVE measure, which means it will change from each person that measures it and each person you measure. There is no way to make a scale and claim one or the other requires more skill.
You might as well base your opinion on an emotional response....do raiders love move then non-raiders? It is about as meaningful.
What is meaningful is that raiders commit to something that requires time and effort, more time and more effort then solo or group content DEMANDS....not that you can spend in at your leisure, but actually demands that you do.
Now if Solo content demands that you log in at 6pm and that you can't log out until you finished at 11pm and that you have to do this 3 nights a week....then sure, make the rewards equal.
I dont know why people cannot play a game and be happy with what they get rather then always trying to compare themselfs to others. Were you not taught as a child that not everyone gets the same thing? That life is not fair. That there is always ALWAYS someone better then you?
Seriously this debate is pointless, it has been pointless for years. I am a raider. I used to be in a raiding guild that raided everyday for hours on end in EQ(1). I left EQ with them and started playing WoW and left after a year. I am now playing EQ again but I am not a hardcore raider anymore due to not waiting to put forth the time and effort needed to be a raider. So now I mostly do group stuff and some raids, maybe twice a week.
I see tons of players in EQ that have way better gear then me, they also raid everyday and I know they put forth the effort and time so they earned those rewards.
I am happy with my current Necromancers gear in EQ but if you compare me to a raiding Necro, I have shit gear but so what? What does that have to do with me enjoying the game? I put alot of effort in my toon and I earned the current set of gear I have. The raid necro earned better gear then me. Why should I get mad that the raider has better gear then me? What does that matter?
Just an example, My Necro has 15k hp and 14.5k mana self buffed. A raid necro I know on my server has 27khp and 25k mana selfbuffed. So My necro has shitty gear if I compare myself to him but guess what? I think my Necro has good gear and I have no problem doing anything I want in the game. So the other necro has way better gear then me? What does that matter? He earned that gear by putting in more effort and time then I did.
Do you people that bitch about raiders getting better gear also bitch and whine about people making more money then in at their jobs? Do you think its unfair that sports players make millions a year and teachers get paid like shit? Sure its unfair but so what? That is life, Life is unfair. It always has been and always will be.
That is the main problem in todays world. Not just gaming but the world in general, nobody wants to put for the effort anymore. The more effort, NOT TIME, EFFORT you put into something the better rewards you get, that is true for gaming and everything else in your life.
Well, it's only natural considering that your assertion is wrong. Your continued contention that raiders deserve more consideration/reward on the basis of time and commitment fails because there is absolutely no demonstrable difference between the following: 1. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does solo content 'til 10pm.
2. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does group content 'til 10pm.
3. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does raid content 'til 10pm. Three people with identical time investment and commitment. So why does guy #3 get the lions share of developer attention and reward?
This is like arguing that you have the same job as a park keeper because you could go to the park at 9pm when it opens and leave at 5pm when it shuts so why should he get paid for being there?
Do you realise how stupid that is?
How about the fact that he HAS to be there in that time and you don't, you choose to be there, and that the choice is what makes the difference?
If you want to raid, you have to be there between 6pm and 10pm, if you want to solo or do group content, you don't have to be there at 6pm to 10pm, you could roll up at 8pm and leave at 9pm and it would make no difference to your ability to enjoy that content. Doing this in raiding would make a difference to your enjoyment of that content.
Ok, seriously .. I saw someone earlier in the thread tell you to lay off the analogies and they're absolutely right because you royally suck at them.
Answer the question. What is the difference between those three people?
Simply "having to be there" is not a valid answer. Leaving mid-raid is no different than leaving mid-group.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Originally posted by TdogSkal That is the main problem in todays world. Not just gaming but the world in general, nobody wants to put for the effort anymore. The more effort, NOT TIME, EFFORT you put into something the better rewards you get, that is true for gaming and everything else in your life.
That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? Non-raiders can put a ton of effort into an activity and because it not raiding they get a pittance as a reward.
It seems that post-WoW MMOs are starting to focus more on making the leveling process faster so that end-game content can be reached more quickly. WoW itself has been taking steps to decrease its leveling time as well. Personally, I enjoy leveling a lot, and I'm not sure if I would enjoy raiding or not. Because I enjoy leveling so much, I usually have a ton of alts and jump games a lot. I've only been to level cap on DAoC (which is probably one of 10+ MMOs I've played); the closest I've come to cap in any other game is lv 64 in WoW when the cap was 70. Since it isn't likely that I'll ever find out for myself, I was wondering, what do you like about end-game and / or raiding? (I'm not just talking about WoW here; whatever game you play).
Quoting the OP again, since this thread is going down several alternate paths.
I'm not sure I like anything about end game, seems most times as soon as I get here I quickly get bored of the content, be it RVR in DAOC or raiding in WOW and re-roll more alts. I had 6 level 50's in DAOC and 5 level 60's in WOW (pre-TBC) and if I think back carefully, that's been my pattern in every long term game.
It wasn't until I started EVE a few years back that I found an alternative to traditional end games. Since there really is no limit or pre-defined end game, I don't feel restricted. Within 4 months of starting, I was out in 0.0 defending our Alliances space against enemy invaders. (we lost).
A few months later, I was POS busting against BOB and trying to drive them back. Fast forward again and I'm helping the Goons beat Smash-Roadkill, and if I had stuck around, I'd have seen the Goons turn around and crush the Alliance I was part of.
In between, I've been in an Empire corp, fought on the side of mercanaries, done a hell of a lot of mission running (I actually enjoy doing it from time to time) and held a variety of corporate offices, including recruting which I seem to be quite good at.
Currently I'm working on building up my ISK reserves/training for my next chapter, which should have me venturing into wormhole space.
I'll be playing AION this fall for a bit, but i suspect once I reach level cap, I'll tire of it and move on.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by TdogSkal That is the main problem in todays world. Not just gaming but the world in general, nobody wants to put for the effort anymore. The more effort, NOT TIME, EFFORT you put into something the better rewards you get, that is true for gaming and everything else in your life.
That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? Non-raiders can put a ton of effort into an activity and because it not raiding they get a pittance as a reward.
Heh here here. (pn the non-raiders getting crap for loads of effort thing)
DOn't forget the PvP items you can only get by doing, well, PvP.Bites but you learn to adjust (I guess) and roll with it and end up busting your butt with other things and so forth. I, for one, despise grinding in any game, period. WoW has soooo many options as far as different areas you can go to level so it is not all bad. (As opposed to having to stay in ONE area for x-amount of levels before you can move on and 'see' more of a game) Hell, I've bounced around with my characters quite a bit and unfortunately for me, am always rerolling new ones for the sake of boredom or waiting for the hubby to get home so we can continue our questing and such.
Honestly, I am too damn lazy (am sure y'all would call it lol) to 'learn' how to PvP or whatever.....I just suck at it badly so I don't do it and thus, do not like it. =0p
Comments
FFXI had extremely difficult content, and it was very diverse. You hardly ever got bored of a particular zone nor did the zones become "obsolete" due to much better gear elsewhere. There was always story attached and plenty areas required you to complete a series of complex tasks to even get to the zone. For instance, to get access to SEA, it wsa a whole series of quests and battles that you had to complete in many different parts of the world. All those stories were rewarded with screenshot CGIs and plenty of story intertwined so it never got boring.
LOTRO Epic books and chapters were the same way. You didn't mind doing them over because you saw something you missed the first time, or were later helping friends. I used to relieve a lot of the fun through THEIR eyes when they got all jazzed about seeing it for the first time as well.
Some games don't have that factor.WAR for instance had no immersion. You simply fought each other until the slider moved, then when it moved enough, you got to fight the king. Everytime you fight him, it's the same exact fight. There really isn't any reward to that as it was just plain boring for most. If your zones/dungeons are just one offs where you simply go in and beat a monster with nothing attached, yeah... that would get stale. But there's nothing saying that you only play games like that.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Use whatever word you like; "challenge", "hard", "difficult" .. none of them hold water.
The highlighted part. If I log in to join a 9pm raid, is that "harder" than logging in to join a 9pm 5-man dungeon group?
Of course not, because none of them were used in that context. The context that they were used in is that they are HARDER, MORE DIFFICULT and MORE CHALLENGING then solo or grouping.
To the second sentence.
Do you HAVE to log in at 9pm to do a 5 man group? No....do you have to log in at a specified time to run a 25 man high end raid? yes you do.
So surely one should offer more as a reward then the other?
Lets face some facts, you have made up your mind that you should get the same as people that spend hours committed to raiding and nothing I say will change that.
Regardless of what I say you will twist it to suit your own agenda, making silly comparisons and stretching what is said out of context because you don't have an argument against the fact that being in a high end raid guild requires a level of commitment that playing solo does not require and that this level of commitment should be rewarded.
There is no answer against that because it is logically sound.
So twist away, pretend we said it was challenging, or hard, or difficult, pretend that somehow playing solo is exactly the same as playing in a high end raid guild and requires not one iota of extra effort or that MMORPG as a genre shouldn't reward effort, because its not like that is a fundamental part of what makes them different from FPS.
Do without me though, cause I find this argument a bit silly. I find you a bit silly. You offer up no logical alternative to counter the points I have raised and have spent pages being an obtuse game of argumentation.
Working as a team with others and seeing parts of the game and content that few players ever get to see, have only heard about, but would like to.
I usually don't care if I ever get a drop, I prefer the exposure to the content more than the rewards from it. But if I ever got one, I wouldn't say "no" to it.
I can see where that might be a draw ^^ I'd like to experience it too, but I dunno that I'd like to experience it over and over again like you usually do to get the gear you want from it. If I didn't enjoy leveling as much as I do, I might raid / participate in end-game for the reasons you stated above
I guess that depends on the game you are playing. Every game doesn't have easily accessible endgame content.
FFXI had extremely difficult content, and it was very diverse. You hardly ever got bored of a particular zone nor did the zones become "obsolete" due to much better gear elsewhere. There was always story attached and plenty areas required you to complete a series of complex tasks to even get to the zone. For instance, to get access to SEA, it wsa a whole series of quests and battles that you had to complete in many different parts of the world. All those stories were rewarded with screenshot CGIs and plenty of story intertwined so it never got boring.
LOTRO Epic books and chapters were the same way. You didn't mind doing them over because you saw something you missed the first time, or were later helping friends. I used to relieve a lot of the fun through THEIR eyes when they got all jazzed about seeing it for the first time as well.
Some games don't have that factor.WAR for instance had no immersion. You simply fought each other until the slider moved, then when it moved enough, you got to fight the king. Everytime you fight him, it's the same exact fight. There really isn't any reward to that as it was just plain boring for most. If your zones/dungeons are just one offs where you simply go in and beat a monster with nothing attached, yeah... that would get stale. But there's nothing saying that you only play games like that.
True. FFXI's mission system was great. LOTRO's was good too, but not so much when you had to go through it every time you made an alt. I think I did book 1 volume 1 more times than there are classes. Figure that one out.
The difficulty of FFXI's missions helped ensure that they lasted you a long time too, so things didn't get old and repetitive as quickly as raiding in games like EQ or WoW, where you raid dungeons with 40 people looking for 3 different types of gear. I think it's ironic though that FFXI's end-game is a bit less of a grind, considering the game as a whole is known for being one of the most grindy games out there... haha xD Anyways... I like your take on it.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
The best way to deal with trolls:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ [IGNORE THEM, THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION!]
Everybody needs a game to suit their play styles. You cannot have solo content = group content. those 2 are polar oppisites Your going to end up pissing off both crowds if you try. Group/raid content will always have greater rewards, tough live with it or leave the PVE MMO's alone, because its not for you.
Even if there is a strictly solo centric game where you can do anything solo, that game will be nothing but a flash in the pan lasting no longer than an single player RPG. It will either be 1 of 2 things; 1) a massive grind of epic proportions (to limit people from getting everything so fast), or 2) everyone running around wearing the exact same thing because any monkey with 2 brain cells can get the stuff. Ya thats really fun. Might as well just give everybody everything at the start
I hope you guys get your solo centric game, just like I am hoping for another grouping game like ffxi since i beat that horse to death over a 4 year span.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
As already stated, problem with common implementation of raids is that as a group content, it rewards single person which is wrong in concept.
You are looking at the picture too literally.
The example would be of Manchester United spending £25m on a player, it is ONLY benefiting that player.....surely the benefit is to the entire team by gaining a highly sought after and skilled player?
The same applies, the benefit is not to a single player as that single player is a part of a team, or guild as it is called in most MMORPGs, and that single players growth and strength are of benefit to the guild.
Also over the course of an evenings raiding there is more then a single player being rewarded. Most boss mobs in WoW drop 4 items in 25 man raids, and its easy to kill 3 a night, which is 12 items, which means that half your raid is rewarded. Not just a single person.
Please, avoid it in the future.
WoW speeded up getting to end game, now they want to get there even faster?
Jut put these idiots on their own server and start them at top level, then the rest of us would be free of them.
This discussion is very silly.
The difficulty of a given encounter is based on two main things:
Note that neither of these two primary determiners of difficulty involve player count. A 1-man or 5-man boss can very easily end up being more difficult than a raid boss.
So is raiding or soloing harder? I don't know. You haven't given enough information to answer the question. I can very easily imagine WOW 1-man bosses being created which are far harder to kill than 25-man Heroic Raid bosses with Hard Mode.
What's different in grouping?
What's different in raiding?
Point being that raiding is neither harder or more difficult than 1-man or 5-man content. There's only a slight change in that your skill is being averaged amongst a group (which could make things harder or easier, depending on your skill.)
Imagine a raid instance you know. Now imagine you take 24 NPC teammates through instead. All bosses are the same. The NPC teammates even make the same mistakes (and even react randomly to you if you tell them "Stop standing in the fire, idiot!"; sometimes they move, sometimes they yell back at you.) How you'd play your character is exactly the same as if you were playing with 24 real teammates (ie if you're a healer, you heal the NPC tank.)
The above is a 1-man instance. It's 1-man content. Solo.
It's exactly as hard as raiding.
The Point: Raid, Solo, or Group content is exactly as hard as developers make it. Apart from skill being averaged out (hurting skilled players, helping the less skilled,) it's exactly the same difficulty.
(normally I'd throw out my "raids are merely more tedious" jibe here, but as I wrote this out I realized that's not an inherent trait of raiding...it's mostly just an irritating result of the content being so much longer than normal content. With a quick Looking For Raid interface (cross-server naturally) and 30-60 min raid times, things would be almost equally tedious as Dungeon content -- in other words, not really tedious at all!
The only unavoidable disadvantage is people are dumber in groups. Mob mentality makes a large group's actions slower than a small group.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Did you bother to read the thread?
You have just made an entirely too long post about something that I pointed out was wrong on page 2.
You are judging whether raiding is more difficult based on skill level, when that is not a criteria that is measurable. Players that raid and players that do not raid all display high and low levels of skill. To judge anything by a subjective arbitrary measure is pointless.
Why not judge the two by factors in real life that are measurable and objective.
Like the time it takes. A purely objective measurement.
The commitment it takes. Another purely objective measurement. If you HAVE to be somewhere at a certain time you have to commit more then someone who can turn up when they like....if they bother to turn up at all.
Why use a subjective measurement that in the long run means nothing and ignore the objective measurements that are there in front of you.
Ofc silly me...
You use them because they give you the conclusion you want to hear.
If the mechanic is not fun enough to do for common rewards, then it's not a mechanic that belongs in a game. If the only reason to do a raid is to get some shiney, then that's a mechanic we could use a heck of a lot less of. Make sure you have alternate paths to your content to let everyone enjoy it. If people want to do it raiding because they enjoy raiding, then great. If they want to do it with a small group, that should be fine as well.
There should be no mechanic in a game that is not fun. The more roadblocks you put up like that, the more people will look to play something else.
Does raiding refers to the WoW type scheduled work?
WoW has the best completed, polished "system/interface/representation of what's happening" in the many MMOs that I have played, but it introduced the worse idea to the MMORPG world, which is raiding.
Come on farming the identical, expectable and non-interfered instances every week is very boring.
And now 99% of the MMORPGs are focus on such "endgame" (introduced since EQ? but I feel that hunting and exploring in EQ was quite fun, without the need of those stupid kill 10/10 pigs quests), and have the leveling process being boring or have the feeling that gear/gameplay experience before reaching the level cap is pointless, all you want to do is to reach the level cap to actually start your game and everything before that is the suffering.
MMO played (paid):
AION
DragonRaja
Dungeons & Dragons Online
Lineage
Lineage 2
Tibia
Ultima Online
Warhammer Online
World of Warcraft
MMO tried:
Atlantica Online
Darkfall
Dead Frontier
Dungeon Runners
EverQuest
Lord of the Rings Online
Monster Hunter Frontier Online
Ragnarok Online
Requiem
Runes of Magic
Runescape
The 4th Coming
and some other Chinese/Korean or beta MMOs
Well, it's only natural considering that your assertion is wrong.
Your continued contention that raiders deserve more consideration/reward on the basis of time and commitment fails because there is absolutely no demonstrable difference between the following:
1. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does solo content 'til 10pm.
2. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does group content 'til 10pm.
3. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does raid content 'til 10pm.
Three people with identical time investment and commitment.
So why does guy #3 get the lions share of developer attention and reward?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Let me sketch out some reasonable change to current raid(group) mechanics.
As I stated, I firmly believe that group content rewards should go back to group content.
This would include the change of raid mechanics and their rewards.
In order to offer guild rewards, guild system needs to be enchanced for following features:
- tiers
- guild exp
- leader skills
- consumables
And player character nees to be enchanced for following attribute:
- guild exp and level
As a raid leader, you can obtain a quest from NPC. The objective of the quest will be to defeat a boss or certain chain of bosses(one unlocks another). After successfull raid, you recieve consumeables and guild exp.
Guild exp are used in 3 ways:
1) to charge your tier rank that affects maximum of your guild members
2) to purchase a formula for crafting
3) used to advanced in your guild level
Each member of the guild that guild leader belongs to will be rewarded by guild exp. From here, you will have to decide wheter you use your exp to donate a decaying guild tier rank to maintain your guild, or you save exp for personal advancement, or you use them for raid leading.
With obtained formula and raid consumables drops, you can compose an item - let's name it 'Order' that will unleash your leadership skill.
Leadership skill is based on your guild level and requires performing certain skills and spells in specific order within your guild mates in your your raid group.
Guild level determines the 'raw' strength of the unleashed skill, while composition of 'Order' will determine the length of the chain, allowing you to use 'Order' with limited effect, ie. for smaller groups.
Would it be more fun for you?
EDIT:
Don't forget it is a draft only and basicaly can be used not for raids(in technical term) only but groups and PVP too.
You can make some funny things from here like certain bosses 'requiring' certain leadrship skills to beat or such.
These aren't "difficulty".
If something takes 3 hours it isn't harder, it is longer.
Basically I'm measuring difficulty based on whether things are more difficult and you're measuring it based on additional non-difficulty factors, such as duration.
They're also not specific to raiding (merely to the current implementation of raiding you see in most games.) Which is why raiding doesn't inherently deserve greater rewards.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is like arguing that you have the same job as a park keeper because you could go to the park at 9pm when it opens and leave at 5pm when it shuts so why should he get paid for being there?
Do you realise how stupid that is?
How about the fact that he HAS to be there in that time and you don't, you choose to be there, and that the choice is what makes the difference?
If you want to raid, you have to be there between 6pm and 10pm, if you want to solo or do group content, you don't have to be there at 6pm to 10pm, you could roll up at 8pm and leave at 9pm and it would make no difference to your ability to enjoy that content. Doing this in raiding would make a difference to your enjoyment of that content.
Can you guys just take it into PMs?
Your quarrel has no point and end.
These aren't "difficulty".
If something takes 3 hours it isn't harder, it is longer.
Basically I'm measuring difficulty based on whether things are more difficult and you're measuring it based on additional non-difficulty factors, such as duration.
They're also not specific to raiding (merely to the current implementation of raiding you see in most games.) Which is why raiding doesn't inherently deserve greater rewards.
Well I have never seen raiding in any game that didn't take longer then solo content, so that is kind of a moot argument, it may not be inherent to raiding but since every single incarnation of raiding has included it we might as well count it.
Also level of skill difficulty is not the major issue here. If it was merely about skill levels then raiding would offer no more rewards, there is no proof that raiding requires any more skill then solo or group content. It is a SUBJECTIVE measure, which means it will change from each person that measures it and each person you measure. There is no way to make a scale and claim one or the other requires more skill.
You might as well base your opinion on an emotional response....do raiders love move then non-raiders? It is about as meaningful.
What is meaningful is that raiders commit to something that requires time and effort, more time and more effort then solo or group content DEMANDS....not that you can spend in at your leisure, but actually demands that you do.
Now if Solo content demands that you log in at 6pm and that you can't log out until you finished at 11pm and that you have to do this 3 nights a week....then sure, make the rewards equal.
Otherwise any claim to equality is bullshit.
I dont know why people cannot play a game and be happy with what they get rather then always trying to compare themselfs to others. Were you not taught as a child that not everyone gets the same thing? That life is not fair. That there is always ALWAYS someone better then you?
Seriously this debate is pointless, it has been pointless for years. I am a raider. I used to be in a raiding guild that raided everyday for hours on end in EQ(1). I left EQ with them and started playing WoW and left after a year. I am now playing EQ again but I am not a hardcore raider anymore due to not waiting to put forth the time and effort needed to be a raider. So now I mostly do group stuff and some raids, maybe twice a week.
I see tons of players in EQ that have way better gear then me, they also raid everyday and I know they put forth the effort and time so they earned those rewards.
I am happy with my current Necromancers gear in EQ but if you compare me to a raiding Necro, I have shit gear but so what? What does that have to do with me enjoying the game? I put alot of effort in my toon and I earned the current set of gear I have. The raid necro earned better gear then me. Why should I get mad that the raider has better gear then me? What does that matter?
Just an example, My Necro has 15k hp and 14.5k mana self buffed. A raid necro I know on my server has 27khp and 25k mana selfbuffed. So My necro has shitty gear if I compare myself to him but guess what? I think my Necro has good gear and I have no problem doing anything I want in the game. So the other necro has way better gear then me? What does that matter? He earned that gear by putting in more effort and time then I did.
Do you people that bitch about raiders getting better gear also bitch and whine about people making more money then in at their jobs? Do you think its unfair that sports players make millions a year and teachers get paid like shit? Sure its unfair but so what? That is life, Life is unfair. It always has been and always will be.
That is the main problem in todays world. Not just gaming but the world in general, nobody wants to put for the effort anymore. The more effort, NOT TIME, EFFORT you put into something the better rewards you get, that is true for gaming and everything else in your life.
Sooner or Later
This is like arguing that you have the same job as a park keeper because you could go to the park at 9pm when it opens and leave at 5pm when it shuts so why should he get paid for being there?
Do you realise how stupid that is?
How about the fact that he HAS to be there in that time and you don't, you choose to be there, and that the choice is what makes the difference?
If you want to raid, you have to be there between 6pm and 10pm, if you want to solo or do group content, you don't have to be there at 6pm to 10pm, you could roll up at 8pm and leave at 9pm and it would make no difference to your ability to enjoy that content. Doing this in raiding would make a difference to your enjoyment of that content.
Ok, seriously .. I saw someone earlier in the thread tell you to lay off the analogies and they're absolutely right because you royally suck at them.
Answer the question. What is the difference between those three people?
Simply "having to be there" is not a valid answer. Leaving mid-raid is no different than leaving mid-group.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? Non-raiders can put a ton of effort into an activity and because it not raiding they get a pittance as a reward.
Quoting the OP again, since this thread is going down several alternate paths.
I'm not sure I like anything about end game, seems most times as soon as I get here I quickly get bored of the content, be it RVR in DAOC or raiding in WOW and re-roll more alts. I had 6 level 50's in DAOC and 5 level 60's in WOW (pre-TBC) and if I think back carefully, that's been my pattern in every long term game.
It wasn't until I started EVE a few years back that I found an alternative to traditional end games. Since there really is no limit or pre-defined end game, I don't feel restricted. Within 4 months of starting, I was out in 0.0 defending our Alliances space against enemy invaders. (we lost).
A few months later, I was POS busting against BOB and trying to drive them back. Fast forward again and I'm helping the Goons beat Smash-Roadkill, and if I had stuck around, I'd have seen the Goons turn around and crush the Alliance I was part of.
In between, I've been in an Empire corp, fought on the side of mercanaries, done a hell of a lot of mission running (I actually enjoy doing it from time to time) and held a variety of corporate offices, including recruting which I seem to be quite good at.
Currently I'm working on building up my ISK reserves/training for my next chapter, which should have me venturing into wormhole space.
I'll be playing AION this fall for a bit, but i suspect once I reach level cap, I'll tire of it and move on.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? Non-raiders can put a ton of effort into an activity and because it not raiding they get a pittance as a reward.
Heh here here. (pn the non-raiders getting crap for loads of effort thing)
DOn't forget the PvP items you can only get by doing, well, PvP.Bites but you learn to adjust (I guess) and roll with it and end up busting your butt with other things and so forth. I, for one, despise grinding in any game, period. WoW has soooo many options as far as different areas you can go to level so it is not all bad. (As opposed to having to stay in ONE area for x-amount of levels before you can move on and 'see' more of a game) Hell, I've bounced around with my characters quite a bit and unfortunately for me, am always rerolling new ones for the sake of boredom or waiting for the hubby to get home so we can continue our questing and such.
Honestly, I am too damn lazy (am sure y'all would call it lol) to 'learn' how to PvP or whatever.....I just suck at it badly so I don't do it and thus, do not like it. =0p
(am I off-topic now?) X]
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