Hello, this is my first post. Before I go any further, I'd like to point out that, while I do know a bit about computers, I'm not super knowledgeable in the intricacies of MMO networking, so I'd appreciate any insight, or help in fixing any misconceptions I might have. Now, to put my question simply; Are modern MMO games right now representative of the best effort current technology allows, or current developers are capable of on a realistic scale? I've been playing MMO games for a while now, since Asheron's Call, and I have to say that it really doesn't seem as though these games are progessing at the same pace as other games. In fact, aside from modest improvements in graphics, nothing seems to be changing at all. I'm personally getting really tired of holding RMB to look around, or having to utilize hotkeys in order to fight opponents. I'm especially tired of cooldowns, unreasonable level requirements and other arbitrary limitations put in to funnel all the players into a narrow space. Years ago, I had the impression that this sort of gameplay stemmed from the need to sacrifice "real" gameplay mechanics in favor of good network communications between servers and players. But now, when I can download 1.36 GB in 20 minutes, I have to wonder why the gameplay hardly changes. I know there are MMOs out there that utilize different methods of playing the game that I would find more appealing, but I've noticed that all of those games usually wind up doing poorly. So, if anyone knows about the network intricacies of MMOs, and why things are this way, I would really love to be enlightened. I look forward to the day when we can play games as immersive as single player titles, like Oblivion or Far Cry 2.
What, in your opinion, makes a game like Oblivion more immersive than a game like LoTRO or WoW?
It's more realistic, more realistic combat, more realistic leveling and far better. And a far more open world, although not as large.. Realism has a lot do with making a game immersive..
Hell, Darkfall is more immserive than both EVE and Oblivion! I kid you not..
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 I'm not argumentative by nature. I don't seek to belittle anyone's opinion, but I would have to disagree on Eve being a unique enough game to warrant the description "unique," indicating that it's one of it's primary qualities. Yes, I'll admit that it did a great many things right. Its economy is very interesting, to say the least, though I won't comment on how "fun" it is. I also think outfitting your ship had (read: Had) the capability of being fun, at some point during the drawing process. However, each ship has a clearly defined role, and the system has been designed in such a way that, in order to compete with other players, there are only a fraction of possible combinations that are of any use at all. But despite the cool features that are added, they still serve to do one thing: support the AC/WoW clone system of gameplay that Eve still uses. You still click on an enemy to target him, execute hotkeys in simple patterns, respond to relatively simple status effects and changes, and wait for the lifebar on your opponent to disappear first. Oh, and you set up a bearing and speed, or set up an orbit around your opponent. The game is actually less interactive than WoW. If they would have copied WoW more closely, and allowed you to control your heading and speed with keyboard/mouse (adjusted for the fact that you can move up and down instead of jump), the game would have been better, I think.
With no offense but you talk about something you have no clue of. How can you write so man words about a game you never player or understand in reasonable depth?
This attitude won't get you far.
Also I don't understand the meaning of this thread. What are you actually looking for? At one point you seem to look for something unique and new and then you derail it with statement that it would be better if they made it more WoW clone?
To be honest, Darkfall is the closest thing to what we're all talking about.. I know how much everyone hates the game because it was a failed attempt, but it was probably the first attempt. A real time combat system, FPS combat with magic and bows, very open world, travel anywhere(literally), tons of content at your fingertips.. It just somehow failed. It was far from a WoW clone though..
Oh and I still have two active UO accounts.. That game is still something..
I'm not argumentative by nature. I don't seek to belittle anyone's opinion, but I would have to disagree on Eve being a unique enough game to warrant the description "unique," indicating that it's one of it's primary qualities. Yes, I'll admit that it did a great many things right. Its economy is very interesting, to say the least, though I won't comment on how "fun" it is. I also think outfitting your ship had (read: Had) the capability of being fun, at some point during the drawing process. However, each ship has a clearly defined role, and the system has been designed in such a way that, in order to compete with other players, there are only a fraction of possible combinations that are of any use at all.
But despite the cool features that are added, they still serve to do one thing: support the AC/WoW clone system of gameplay that Eve still uses. You still click on an enemy to target him, execute hotkeys in simple patterns, respond to relatively simple status effects and changes, and wait for the lifebar on your opponent to disappear first. Oh, and you set up a bearing and speed, or set up an orbit around your opponent. The game is actually less interactive than WoW. If they would have copied WoW more closely, and allowed you to control your heading and speed with keyboard/mouse (adjusted for the fact that you can move up and down instead of jump), the game would have been better, I think.
With no offense but you talk about something you have no clue of. How can you write so man words about a game you never player or understand in reasonable depth?
This attitude won't get you far.
Also I don't understand the meaning of this thread. What are you actually looking for?
At one point you seem to look for something unique and new and then you derail it with statement that it would be better if they made it more WoW clone?
Wow, this forum moves quickly. I have played Eve Online. I was introduced to it by a friend who had 3 characters above 10mil SP. He taught me how to play, strategies, etc. I have 3 characters. The highest raised to 8mil SP, the other two were between 1-3 million. After I quit, I returned to the game several times to try out some of the new stuff that's come along the way. I still follow the development of the game and I'll probably return again to sate my curiosity. Despite the above mentioned features, there are some thing I like about it still.
The meaning of my thread? This would be easiest if I quote myself. I'm not sure how to do that with this forum yet, so I'll do it manually:
1: Now, to put my question simply; Are modern MMO games right now representative of the best effort current technology allows, or current developers are capable of on a realistic scale?
2: I see no real changes in gameplay since the likes of EQ and Asheron's Call, is this observation inaccurate?
3: What I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that the only thing that's changed about MMOs at all is cosmetic...Am I anywhere close to what's going on?...Why is there an apparent stagnation in the progress of the gameplay mechanics seen in the majority of MMOs?
That third one is a bit chopped up, but it is in order and the meaning of the quote is intact.
I was looking forward to Darkfall. I decided against trying, however, upon rumor that it was simply chaos, with constant "deathmatching" and ganking. I'm sure those rumors aren't true entirely, but tack onto that the stunted launch and all that, and I'm unsure whether or not I'll play it.
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 Wow, this forum moves quickly. I have played Eve Online. I was introduced to it by a friend who had 3 characters above 10mil SP. He taught me how to play, strategies, etc. I have 3 characters. The highest raised to 8mil SP, the other two were between 1-3 million. After I quit, I returned to the game several times to try out some of the new stuff that's come along the way. I still follow the development of the game and I'll probably return again to sate my curiosity. Despite the above mentioned features, there are some thing I like about it still. The meaning of my thread? This would be easiest if I quote myself. I'm not sure how to do that with this forum yet, so I'll do it manually: 1: Now, to put my question simply; Are modern MMO games right now representative of the best effort current technology allows, or current developers are capable of on a realistic scale? 2: I see no real changes in gameplay since the likes of EQ and Asheron's Call, is this observation inaccurate? 3: What I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that the only thing that's changed about MMOs at all is cosmetic...Am I anywhere close to what's going on?...Why is there an apparent stagnation in the progress of the gameplay mechanics seen in the majority of MMOs? That third one is a bit chopped up, but it is in order and the meaning of the quote is intact. I was looking forward to Darkfall. I decided against trying, however, upon rumor that it was simply chaos, with constant "deathmatching" and ganking. I'm sure those rumors aren't true entirely, but tack onto that the stunted launch and all that, and I'm unsure whether or not I'll play it.
Well, then you need to read or play EVE more becaue from what you have stated you don't know how the game works. I only make note that PVE aspect of the game is not where the game focus is laid on.
1) Best effort? What aspect of the game do you have on mind? The games are developed in regards to game concept, not technical 'edge'. Your question makes little sense to me.
What will always be lacking in MMO is AI. This is a technical issue that will not be overcome for some time.
Age of Conan stress your hardware quite a bit(not sure how much is bad coding to blame, hehe).
2) What change you expect when you still look into the same direction - RPG gameplay? There are various games with various advancement systems but are the same in core, they share the genre.
3) What progression you talk about? What is the goal of the progression? Where the games should head to and who decides that?
I'm not argumentative by nature. I don't seek to belittle anyone's opinion, but I would have to disagree on Eve being a unique enough game to warrant the description "unique," indicating that it's one of it's primary qualities. Yes, I'll admit that it did a great many things right. Its economy is very interesting, to say the least, though I won't comment on how "fun" it is. I also think outfitting your ship had (read: Had) the capability of being fun, at some point during the drawing process. However, each ship has a clearly defined role, and the system has been designed in such a way that, in order to compete with other players, there are only a fraction of possible combinations that are of any use at all.
But despite the cool features that are added, they still serve to do one thing: support the AC/WoW clone system of gameplay that Eve still uses. You still click on an enemy to target him, execute hotkeys in simple patterns, respond to relatively simple status effects and changes, and wait for the lifebar on your opponent to disappear first. Oh, and you set up a bearing and speed, or set up an orbit around your opponent. The game is actually less interactive than WoW. If they would have copied WoW more closely, and allowed you to control your heading and speed with keyboard/mouse (adjusted for the fact that you can move up and down instead of jump), the game would have been better, I think.
With no offense but you talk about something you have no clue of. How can you write so man words about a game you never player or understand in reasonable depth?
This attitude won't get you far.
Also I don't understand the meaning of this thread. What are you actually looking for?
At one point you seem to look for something unique and new and then you derail it with statement that it would be better if they made it more WoW clone?
The meaning of my thread? This would be easiest if I quote myself. I'm not sure how to do that with this forum yet, so I'll do it manually:
1: Now, to put my question simply; Are modern MMO games right now representative of the best effort current technology allows, or current developers are capable of on a realistic scale?
2: I see no real changes in gameplay since the likes of EQ and Asheron's Call, is this observation inaccurate?
3: What I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that the only thing that's changed about MMOs at all is cosmetic...Am I anywhere close to what's going on?...Why is there an apparent stagnation in the progress of the gameplay mechanics seen in the majority of MMOs?
That third one is a bit chopped up, but it is in order and the meaning of the quote is intact.
I was looking forward to Darkfall. I decided against trying, however, upon rumor that it was simply chaos, with constant "deathmatching" and ganking. I'm sure those rumors aren't true entirely, but tack onto that the stunted launch and all that, and I'm unsure whether or not I'll play it.
1. As far as technology for graphics yes but slowly because MMOs need to fit the requirements on as many moderen PCs as possible so there is a large limition. Then there is the fact that MMOs are much larger scale games and very expensive to make so pushing for using the best technology would be throwing money away.
2. I take it you haven't played AoC, Guild Wars, Darkfall, and many others which have different gameplay from EQ.
3. Yeah, gameplay is somewhat the same but with each new MMO there is something added or improved. You are going to have to accept that most MMOs won't vary drastically and for those that do, support the because they are going to have a hard time surviving vs the mainstream style as you described.
If I were you I'd wait for Mortal Online or see if DF has gotten any better after its released (I doubt it).
I'm not argumentative by nature. I don't seek to belittle anyone's opinion, but I would have to disagree on Eve being a unique enough game to warrant the description "unique," indicating that it's one of it's primary qualities. Yes, I'll admit that it did a great many things right. Its economy is very interesting, to say the least, though I won't comment on how "fun" it is. I also think outfitting your ship had (read: Had) the capability of being fun, at some point during the drawing process. However, each ship has a clearly defined role, and the system has been designed in such a way that, in order to compete with other players, there are only a fraction of possible combinations that are of any use at all.
But despite the cool features that are added, they still serve to do one thing: support the AC/WoW clone system of gameplay that Eve still uses. You still click on an enemy to target him, execute hotkeys in simple patterns, respond to relatively simple status effects and changes, and wait for the lifebar on your opponent to disappear first. Oh, and you set up a bearing and speed, or set up an orbit around your opponent. The game is actually less interactive than WoW. If they would have copied WoW more closely, and allowed you to control your heading and speed with keyboard/mouse (adjusted for the fact that you can move up and down instead of jump), the game would have been better, I think.
With no offense but you talk about something you have no clue of. How can you write so man words about a game you never player or understand in reasonable depth?
This attitude won't get you far.
Also I don't understand the meaning of this thread. What are you actually looking for?
At one point you seem to look for something unique and new and then you derail it with statement that it would be better if they made it more WoW clone?
I was looking forward to Darkfall. I decided against trying, however, upon rumor that it was simply chaos, with constant "deathmatching" and ganking. I'm sure those rumors aren't true entirely, but tack onto that the stunted launch and all that, and I'm unsure whether or not I'll play it.
Darkfall has improved A LOT since its release, and you can currently buy and play the American server. The rumors are true though.. The game is gankfest, full of PK's and constant PVP, full player looting upon death.
@Gdemami: About the best effort bit, I mean in general. It's a question that can be appropriately answered in general back, or specifically. Basically, I'm asking if one could make something better. I don't think it's an unreasonable question. In fact, I think it's healthy to question the state of the world, at all times, so you can seek to gain understanding in the world's actual workings. But I digress...
I've played Age of Conan. It was very pretty. I didn't play it for long, because I found myself pressing 1, 2 and 3 as hotkeys to perform my three attacks. That's a lot like WoW. Sure, you execute them in patterns to perform greater, more complex attacks... but what does it matter? If you build your attacks with hotkeys on a toolbar, whether each item on the hotbar is a special attack, or if they're merely parts of a greater attempt; It's still hotkeys on a toolbar executed in a sequence that you have to memorize for one reason or another. The running and jumping is all the same, and you still pretty much just stand there, a distance from your opponent, with no real reason to move once the battle's begun. You still had levels, and you gained experience from doing the same things, and you got sent on quests to kill things, or get things, or make things. And these quests are repeated by different givers, in different locations, numberous times, idealy to the point that you never run out of them. All of the NPCs just stand there waiting to die, and they serve no purpose other than to die. And lastly, everything is still handled by internal die rolls determined by your level and your gear alone.
Yes, I have thought about how I would do the above things differently in a game. Going into detail about them would be a long conversation.
In concerns of the "unique" MMOs, I have played (extensively) Eve Online, Ryzom, Vanguard (touted unique crafting, among other things), Planetside. I have played less extensively, but still long enough to understand the core gameplay: AoC and Fallen Earth. I intend to play Champs Online, Mortal Online and more Fallen Earth.
If there are more titles considered to be "unique," then I would love to try them as well.
As a side note , concerning single player games with multiplayer modes with players slots not reaching the hundreds , I think it is more due to the crappy hardware that run most servers (im thinking fps , you will never see a rts with 50v50 players ) server hosters use the cheapest parts that can barely run the game fluid at max players (say 32) , but you can run a server with 128 slots or more with normal performance if you had a serious cpu and ram on it and not the garbage leased by server hosting companies , and you need the bandwith aswell obviously .
This is inaccurate.
The reason you don't see many 60+ player games is primarily due to Graphics and Gameplay.
Few games are designed to play well with 60+ players. If you have a map designed for 20-30 player fights, 60 players is ridiculously crowded and totally ruins gameplay (this is even evident in TF2; play a CTF map with 20 players, then play the same map with 30 -- 30 players makes things devolve into senseless stalemates whereas with 20 players, 10-man teams let flag caps happen more often.)
Additionally, players crave nice looking graphics, which you can get in a smaller game but which is harder in a larger game.
Personally I find that 5-15 players per team (10-30 players) is the sweet spot for games. Anything over that needs to be specifically designed for large-scale combat to be enjoyable (and like I said, even 15-player teams is questionable at times in TF2) 128-player Tribes 1 servers weren't fun, but Planetside's 200v200 fights were (although its 200v200v200 fights were dubious at times.) And it was the result of gameplay being designed specifically around large-scale conflicts.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 @Gdemami: About the best effort bit, I mean in general. It's a question that can be appropriately answered in general back, or specifically. Basically, I'm asking if one could make something better. I don't think it's an unreasonable question. In fact, I think it's healthy to question the state of the world, at all times, so you can seek to gain understanding in the world's actual workings. But I digress...
Better is not a general term, it is submited to something specific. Better than what? Again, you are still narrow minded towards imaginary progression line.
All games are more or less different and the mix of things make the game good or bad, working or not. There is no single line how to make all games better.
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 I've played Age of Conan. It was very pretty. I didn't play it for long, because I found myself pressing 1, 2 and 3 as hotkeys to perform my three attacks. That's a lot like WoW. Sure, you execute them in patterns to perform greater, more complex attacks... but what does it matter?
Did you try to 1,2,3 in PVP? Quite a difference from WoW.
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 If you build your attacks with hotkeys on a toolbar, whether each item on the hotbar is a special attack, or if they're merely parts of a greater attempt; It's still hotkeys on a toolbar executed in a sequence that you have to memorize for one reason or another. The running and jumping is all the same, and you still pretty much just stand there, a distance from your opponent, with no real reason to move once the battle's begun. You still had levels, and you gained experience from doing the same things, and you got sent on quests to kill things, or get things, or make things. And these quests are repeated by different givers, in different locations, numberous times, idealy to the point that you never run out of them. All of the NPCs just stand there waiting to die, and they serve no purpose other than to die. And lastly, everything is still handled by internal die rolls determined by your level and your gear alone.
Haven't seen any PVE content challenging ever(nor I expect or want ne to be) so dunno why I should expect NPC doing anything else than waiting to die?
I play MMO to interact with other people(generaly to fight them in a way or another) not to beat some dull NPCs which I could have been doing as fine out of MMO.
To me it seems like you are looking and expecting same as you fancy with off-line games.
Hello, this is my first post. Before I go any further, I'd like to point out that, while I do know a bit about computers, I'm not super knowledgeable in the intricacies of MMO networking, so I'd appreciate any insight, or help in fixing any misconceptions I might have. Now, to put my question simply; Are modern MMO games right now representative of the best effort current technology allows, or current developers are capable of on a realistic scale? I've been playing MMO games for a while now, since Asheron's Call, and I have to say that it really doesn't seem as though these games are progessing at the same pace as other games. In fact, aside from modest improvements in graphics, nothing seems to be changing at all. I'm personally getting really tired of holding RMB to look around, or having to utilize hotkeys in order to fight opponents. I'm especially tired of cooldowns, unreasonable level requirements and other arbitrary limitations put in to funnel all the players into a narrow space. Years ago, I had the impression that this sort of gameplay stemmed from the need to sacrifice "real" gameplay mechanics in favor of good network communications between servers and players. But now, when I can download 1.36 GB in 20 minutes, I have to wonder why the gameplay hardly changes. I know there are MMOs out there that utilize different methods of playing the game that I would find more appealing, but I've noticed that all of those games usually wind up doing poorly. So, if anyone knows about the network intricacies of MMOs, and why things are this way, I would really love to be enlightened. I look forward to the day when we can play games as immersive as single player titles, like Oblivion or Far Cry 2.
I don't think you are looking at the right genre.
To make the answer short. Yes, large world networking is in its infancy and will probably never take off. Only a niche in the Video Game market has interest in that type of technology, and we will never see any large advances in it unless a university decides to fund some research or somebody with extra cash decides to get serious ( Microsoft, Blizzard, etc. ).
Hello, this is my first post. Before I go any further, I'd like to point out that, while I do know a bit about computers, I'm not super knowledgeable in the intricacies of MMO networking, so I'd appreciate any insight, or help in fixing any misconceptions I might have. Now, to put my question simply; Are modern MMO games right now representative of the best effort current technology allows, or current developers are capable of on a realistic scale? I've been playing MMO games for a while now, since Asheron's Call, and I have to say that it really doesn't seem as though these games are progessing at the same pace as other games. In fact, aside from modest improvements in graphics, nothing seems to be changing at all. I'm personally getting really tired of holding RMB to look around, or having to utilize hotkeys in order to fight opponents. I'm especially tired of cooldowns, unreasonable level requirements and other arbitrary limitations put in to funnel all the players into a narrow space. Years ago, I had the impression that this sort of gameplay stemmed from the need to sacrifice "real" gameplay mechanics in favor of good network communications between servers and players. But now, when I can download 1.36 GB in 20 minutes, I have to wonder why the gameplay hardly changes. I know there are MMOs out there that utilize different methods of playing the game that I would find more appealing, but I've noticed that all of those games usually wind up doing poorly. So, if anyone knows about the network intricacies of MMOs, and why things are this way, I would really love to be enlightened. I look forward to the day when we can play games as immersive as single player titles, like Oblivion or Far Cry 2.
I think the tech limitations are only part of it (and a small part at that). The gameplay never changes because millions of people are perfectly happy grinding and being on level treadmills.
Devs are lazy, and more immersive titles would not only be cost-prohibitive but a nightmare to administer. There's no reason for them to change the gameplay, since mmo's are currently a money-printing license once the development costs are over and the game has been deployed.
As someone said above me, you are in the wrong genre if you're looking for immersion. Single player games or private servers are the only places you'll find that.
@Gdemami, I'm sorry, but there are so many misinterpretations in your post that I'll have a hard time replying, but I'll try my best.
"Better" is a comparitive term. It compares one thing to another, or a think to some form of status quo. Usage of the word is not dependant upon any level of specificity or generality. In my case, the proper way I would answer the question I asked is something like "Yes, I think these games could be made better, and here's why..." or "No, this is the best we can do because of..." or even "I don't know."
To imply I'm narrow-minded because I seek to understand why things are the way they are is just... well it's narrow minded.
You'll have to explain what you mean by AoC being quite a difference from WoW. Any time I want, I can sit and watch PvP on AoC between real players, see the moves they make and the actions they take, and I don't see quite a difference.
Now, as for the level of challenge in PvE content. If you're talking about just MMOs, then I agree. however, if you also include killing NPCs in single player games, then I disagree. But either way, I believe NPCs can be made fun to fight. And I wasn't talking just about combat. What if you played an MMO where the animals acted like animals, walking in packs, sleeping, attacking other animals for food or eating off a tree? That would greatly increase immersion, and if you disagree, then that's a matter of opinion, not a matter of debate.
I play MMOs to interact with people, cooperate with them, establish myself any way that I can, be it crafting, building cities, or anything. My favorite thing, is killing NPCs with friends. I would love if it were made more immersive, and I can think of lots of ways to accomplish this.
@thinktank001. The age of networking is beyond me, in relative terms. However, I strongly disagree with your assertion that large scale networking won't take off. First, it already has: what do you think the internet is? Second, it is getting better, look at Youtube, Google Earth, Newgrounds... nothing like this existed when Asheron's Call came out. Among other things, these represent that the amount of data that can be sent from you, to a server and back, utilizing a Client/Server architecture has increased by hundreds of percent or more in this last decade. And, as the internet gets better, so will the technologies utilized in MMOs.
@veritas_X, I agree. In fact, that would be my greatest fear, as far as MMOs are concerned. However, I believe that players will respond to an original title favorably as long as it's properly executed and advertised. It seems like the most original MMOs we've had fail, not because players aren't interested, but because the Developer's screwed something major up, or because it wasn't properly exposed.
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 @Gdemami, I'm sorry, but there are so many misinterpretations in your post that I'll have a hard time replying, but I'll try my best. "Better" is a comparitive term. It compares one thing to another, or a think to some form of status quo. Usage of the word is not dependant upon any level of specificity or generality. In my case, the proper way I would answer the question I asked is something like "Yes, I think these games could be made better, and here's why..." or "No, this is the best we can do because of..." or even "I don't know."
I guess you made some assumption about a state of 'general MMO' and asking people wheter there could be done an improvement in some aspect of the game regarding that your very own assumption.
This won't get you an answer from me, sorry.
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 You'll have to explain what you mean by AoC being quite a difference from WoW. Any time I want, I can sit and watch PvP on AoC between real players, see the moves they make and the actions they take, and I don't see quite a difference.
I will ask you again. Did you PVP in AoC?
Looking and performing are two different things.
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 Now, as for the level of challenge in PvE content. If you're talking about just MMOs, then I agree. however, if you also include killing NPCs in single player games, then I disagree.
Yes, I had MMO in mind since there is nothing else apart from PVE in single player games.
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 But either way, I believe NPCs can be made fun to fight. And I wasn't talking just about combat. What if you played an MMO where the animals acted like animals, walking in packs, sleeping, attacking other animals for food or eating off a tree? That would greatly increase immersion, and if you disagree, then that's a matter of opinion, not a matter of debate.
As I already said, this is a technical issue. AI takes large loads of CPU usage which current technology isn't able to take. Don't expect anything to change any time soon.
Originally posted by Akimitsu18 I play MMOs to interact with people, cooperate with them, establish myself any way that I can, be it crafting, building cities, or anything. My favorite thing, is killing NPCs with friends. I would love if it were made more immersive, and I can think of lots of ways to accomplish this.
Originally posted by rikilii What, in your opinion, makes a game like Oblivion more immersive than a game like LoTRO or WoW?
It should be obvious: first-person camera. Oblivion puts effort into its 1st person cam and almost no effort into its 3rd person cam (which I've heard people who have worked on Oblivion admit was a mistake to even bother implementing.) MMORPGs do the opposite. Therefore Oblivion is more immersive.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by rikilii What, in your opinion, makes a game like Oblivion more immersive than a game like LoTRO or WoW?
It should be obvious: first-person camera. Oblivion puts effort into its 1st person cam and almost no effort into its 3rd person cam (which I've heard people who have worked on Oblivion admit was a mistake to even bother implementing.) MMORPGs do the opposite. Therefore Oblivion is more immersive.
1st Person view is NOT obvious more immersive.
I tend to like both but to say 1st person is more immersive I will disagree, but will say they both can be, it depends if a person wants a unrealistic field of view then 1st person it is as it's a very narrow view compared to how we look with our eye's in real life, does a person want a more realistic field of view then 3rd person shows you more of a world in a natural way like how you actualy look thru your eye's. Only thing with this is you see the back of your character, yet see have a more realistic field of view.
Any game where one of the goals is to create the semblence of a realistic world, a 1st person view will deliver a greater sensation of being in that world than a 3rd person view. (and even fantasy worlds want to be believable where they can, as that helps with suspension of disbelief..and well...immersion.)
Do the gains in immersion always outweigh the potential losses in gameplay? Not always. Which is why many MMORPGs opt for 3rd person view, which has gameplay benefits (seeing what's attacking you) and vanity benefits (you get to see the cool crap your char is wearing, and the awesome spells/abilities you use are much more spectacular in 3rd than 1st.)
And of course there are games where 1st person doesn't make sense at all regarding immersion (the most immersive/flow-laden games I know are puzzle games, which have a completely arbitrary camera scheme.)
But since we're talking about MMORPGs, 1st person is great for immersion. It's just that immersion might not be the most important thing the developer is going for.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well fine. It's not "obvious", but it is true for me. :P Any game where one of the goals is to create the semblence of a realistic world, a 1st person view will deliver a greater sensation of being in that world than a 3rd person view for me. (and even fantasy worlds want to be believable where they can, as that helps with suspension of disbelief..and well...immersion.) Do the gains in immersion always outweigh the potential losses in gameplay? Not always. Which is why many MMORPGs opt for 3rd person view, which has gameplay benefits (seeing what's attacking you) and vanity benefits (you get to see the cool crap your char is wearing, and the awesome spells/abilities you use are much more spectacular in 3rd than 1st.) And of course there are games where 1st person doesn't make sense at all regarding immersion (the most immersive/flow-laden games I know are puzzle games, which have a completely arbitrary camera scheme.) But since we're talking about MMORPGs, 1st person is can be great for immersion. It's just that immersion might not be the most important thing the developer is going for.
Fixed
Just know that what you or me feel is immersive does not mean it is a fact for everyone. Reason for the small fix, don't hate me for it.
I'm not sure an mmo company could ever put the mechanics of a game like Fallout 3 into an mmorpg....it just seems unrealistic to me. My guess is they'll never do it, or not during our online gaming lives anyway.
To be honest, I dont want a world such as Fallout in an MMO. I perfer to emmerse myself with huge games like Fallout in single player. I can avoid the immature kids and dirty old men much easier in single player rpgs...which makes emmersion overall much better for me. I play mmos for the social aspect more then to emmerse myself in the world personally.
Give me a polished / fun mmo and I'm happy. I could care less how non-linear the game is.
Just know that what you or me feel is immersive does not mean it is a fact for everyone. Reason for the small fix, don't hate me for it.
This is less my own subjective opinion and more what I've observed players comment on (especially regarding Oblivion's immersion factor.) Plenty of players can point out un-fun aspects of Oblivion (the auto-difficulty system), or particularly unimmersive aspects of Oblivion (hearing many people speak with the same voiceactor,) but I've never heard anyone try to claim the 1st person view (which matches our own real-world view) was less immersive than a 3rd person view.
If people were using the term flow instead of immersion, that might help. Flow is detached from any need for believability, whereas immersion I've almost always seen used to describe believable worlds that sucked players in. I'd be the first to admit that 1st person view isn't necessarily better for flow.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Axehilt I've never heard anyone try to claim the 1st person view (which matches our own real-world view) was less immersive than a 3rd person view.
That will be mostly because camera view is not what decides the immersion feeling...
Just know that what you or me feel is immersive does not mean it is a fact for everyone. Reason for the small fix, don't hate me for it.
This is less my own subjective opinion and more what I've observed players comment on (especially regarding Oblivion's immersion factor.) Plenty of players can point out un-fun aspects of Oblivion (the auto-difficulty system), or particularly unimmersive aspects of Oblivion (hearing many people speak with the same voiceactor,) but I've never heard anyone try to claim the 1st person view (which matches our own real-world view) was less immersive than a 3rd person view.
If people were using the term flow instead of immersion, that might help. Flow is detached from any need for believability, whereas immersion I've almost always seen used to describe believable worlds that sucked players in. I'd be the first to admit that 1st person view isn't necessarily better for flow.
Just a very true fact: First person view does NOT match our own real world view, and that is a fact. It does try to.
The mood and feel of the game do a much better job immersing you in a world than the view. I've played LOADS of FPSs that do a sh%$^#tty job of immersing you while others do it very well. I've also played loads of 3rd person games that immersed me as well as any FPS. The view actually has very little to do with it. It really just depends on the game. I've been heavily immersed in everything from HalfLife to Phantasy Star2 to Gears of War to Fallout to WOW to SIlent Hill and on and on....and I'm sure I'm not alone=) The MOOD and design of the world does the immersion. Its more about how well the game plays, looks and sounds because the less you're worried about the UI, controls, quirks and bugs, the more you're just playing and forgetting about all the technical aspects. THAT's immersion.
A FP view actually does a really cruddy job of allowing optimal gameplay in groups. Its just far too limiting, esspecially for support in RvR. You need the birds eye view to really tell whats going on around you. Being stuck in first person sucks. I've tried it in a few MMOs and its amazing how much worse you play. No thanks. I don't think I'll ever play one that doesnt' allow you to zoom the camera back.
Comments
What, in your opinion, makes a game like Oblivion more immersive than a game like LoTRO or WoW?
It's more realistic, more realistic combat, more realistic leveling and far better. And a far more open world, although not as large.. Realism has a lot do with making a game immersive..
Hell, Darkfall is more immserive than both EVE and Oblivion! I kid you not..
This attitude won't get you far.
Also I don't understand the meaning of this thread. What are you actually looking for?
At one point you seem to look for something unique and new and then you derail it with statement that it would be better if they made it more WoW clone?
To be honest, Darkfall is the closest thing to what we're all talking about.. I know how much everyone hates the game because it was a failed attempt, but it was probably the first attempt. A real time combat system, FPS combat with magic and bows, very open world, travel anywhere(literally), tons of content at your fingertips.. It just somehow failed. It was far from a WoW clone though..
Oh and I still have two active UO accounts.. That game is still something..
This attitude won't get you far.
Also I don't understand the meaning of this thread. What are you actually looking for?
At one point you seem to look for something unique and new and then you derail it with statement that it would be better if they made it more WoW clone?
Wow, this forum moves quickly. I have played Eve Online. I was introduced to it by a friend who had 3 characters above 10mil SP. He taught me how to play, strategies, etc. I have 3 characters. The highest raised to 8mil SP, the other two were between 1-3 million. After I quit, I returned to the game several times to try out some of the new stuff that's come along the way. I still follow the development of the game and I'll probably return again to sate my curiosity. Despite the above mentioned features, there are some thing I like about it still.
The meaning of my thread? This would be easiest if I quote myself. I'm not sure how to do that with this forum yet, so I'll do it manually:
1: Now, to put my question simply; Are modern MMO games right now representative of the best effort current technology allows, or current developers are capable of on a realistic scale?
2: I see no real changes in gameplay since the likes of EQ and Asheron's Call, is this observation inaccurate?
3: What I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that the only thing that's changed about MMOs at all is cosmetic...Am I anywhere close to what's going on?...Why is there an apparent stagnation in the progress of the gameplay mechanics seen in the majority of MMOs?
That third one is a bit chopped up, but it is in order and the meaning of the quote is intact.
I was looking forward to Darkfall. I decided against trying, however, upon rumor that it was simply chaos, with constant "deathmatching" and ganking. I'm sure those rumors aren't true entirely, but tack onto that the stunted launch and all that, and I'm unsure whether or not I'll play it.
I only make note that PVE aspect of the game is not where the game focus is laid on.
1) Best effort? What aspect of the game do you have on mind?
The games are developed in regards to game concept, not technical 'edge'. Your question makes little sense to me.
What will always be lacking in MMO is AI. This is a technical issue that will not be overcome for some time.
Age of Conan stress your hardware quite a bit(not sure how much is bad coding to blame, hehe).
2) What change you expect when you still look into the same direction - RPG gameplay?
There are various games with various advancement systems but are the same in core, they share the genre.
3) What progression you talk about? What is the goal of the progression? Where the games should head to and who decides that?
If you consider Darkfall a 'progression'...
This attitude won't get you far.
Also I don't understand the meaning of this thread. What are you actually looking for?
At one point you seem to look for something unique and new and then you derail it with statement that it would be better if they made it more WoW clone?
The meaning of my thread? This would be easiest if I quote myself. I'm not sure how to do that with this forum yet, so I'll do it manually:
1: Now, to put my question simply; Are modern MMO games right now representative of the best effort current technology allows, or current developers are capable of on a realistic scale?
2: I see no real changes in gameplay since the likes of EQ and Asheron's Call, is this observation inaccurate?
3: What I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that the only thing that's changed about MMOs at all is cosmetic...Am I anywhere close to what's going on?...Why is there an apparent stagnation in the progress of the gameplay mechanics seen in the majority of MMOs?
That third one is a bit chopped up, but it is in order and the meaning of the quote is intact.
I was looking forward to Darkfall. I decided against trying, however, upon rumor that it was simply chaos, with constant "deathmatching" and ganking. I'm sure those rumors aren't true entirely, but tack onto that the stunted launch and all that, and I'm unsure whether or not I'll play it.
1. As far as technology for graphics yes but slowly because MMOs need to fit the requirements on as many moderen PCs as possible so there is a large limition. Then there is the fact that MMOs are much larger scale games and very expensive to make so pushing for using the best technology would be throwing money away.
2. I take it you haven't played AoC, Guild Wars, Darkfall, and many others which have different gameplay from EQ.
3. Yeah, gameplay is somewhat the same but with each new MMO there is something added or improved. You are going to have to accept that most MMOs won't vary drastically and for those that do, support the because they are going to have a hard time surviving vs the mainstream style as you described.
If I were you I'd wait for Mortal Online or see if DF has gotten any better after its released (I doubt it).
This attitude won't get you far.
Also I don't understand the meaning of this thread. What are you actually looking for?
At one point you seem to look for something unique and new and then you derail it with statement that it would be better if they made it more WoW clone?
I was looking forward to Darkfall. I decided against trying, however, upon rumor that it was simply chaos, with constant "deathmatching" and ganking. I'm sure those rumors aren't true entirely, but tack onto that the stunted launch and all that, and I'm unsure whether or not I'll play it.
Darkfall has improved A LOT since its release, and you can currently buy and play the American server. The rumors are true though.. The game is gankfest, full of PK's and constant PVP, full player looting upon death.
@Gdemami: About the best effort bit, I mean in general. It's a question that can be appropriately answered in general back, or specifically. Basically, I'm asking if one could make something better. I don't think it's an unreasonable question. In fact, I think it's healthy to question the state of the world, at all times, so you can seek to gain understanding in the world's actual workings. But I digress...
I've played Age of Conan. It was very pretty. I didn't play it for long, because I found myself pressing 1, 2 and 3 as hotkeys to perform my three attacks. That's a lot like WoW. Sure, you execute them in patterns to perform greater, more complex attacks... but what does it matter? If you build your attacks with hotkeys on a toolbar, whether each item on the hotbar is a special attack, or if they're merely parts of a greater attempt; It's still hotkeys on a toolbar executed in a sequence that you have to memorize for one reason or another. The running and jumping is all the same, and you still pretty much just stand there, a distance from your opponent, with no real reason to move once the battle's begun. You still had levels, and you gained experience from doing the same things, and you got sent on quests to kill things, or get things, or make things. And these quests are repeated by different givers, in different locations, numberous times, idealy to the point that you never run out of them. All of the NPCs just stand there waiting to die, and they serve no purpose other than to die. And lastly, everything is still handled by internal die rolls determined by your level and your gear alone.
Yes, I have thought about how I would do the above things differently in a game. Going into detail about them would be a long conversation.
In concerns of the "unique" MMOs, I have played (extensively) Eve Online, Ryzom, Vanguard (touted unique crafting, among other things), Planetside. I have played less extensively, but still long enough to understand the core gameplay: AoC and Fallen Earth. I intend to play Champs Online, Mortal Online and more Fallen Earth.
If there are more titles considered to be "unique," then I would love to try them as well.
This is inaccurate.
The reason you don't see many 60+ player games is primarily due to Graphics and Gameplay.
Few games are designed to play well with 60+ players. If you have a map designed for 20-30 player fights, 60 players is ridiculously crowded and totally ruins gameplay (this is even evident in TF2; play a CTF map with 20 players, then play the same map with 30 -- 30 players makes things devolve into senseless stalemates whereas with 20 players, 10-man teams let flag caps happen more often.)
Additionally, players crave nice looking graphics, which you can get in a smaller game but which is harder in a larger game.
Personally I find that 5-15 players per team (10-30 players) is the sweet spot for games. Anything over that needs to be specifically designed for large-scale combat to be enjoyable (and like I said, even 15-player teams is questionable at times in TF2) 128-player Tribes 1 servers weren't fun, but Planetside's 200v200 fights were (although its 200v200v200 fights were dubious at times.) And it was the result of gameplay being designed specifically around large-scale conflicts.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Better is not a general term, it is submited to something specific. Better than what?
Again, you are still narrow minded towards imaginary progression line.
All games are more or less different and the mix of things make the game good or bad, working or not.
There is no single line how to make all games better.
Did you try to 1,2,3 in PVP? Quite a difference from WoW.
Haven't seen any PVE content challenging ever(nor I expect or want ne to be) so dunno why I should expect NPC doing anything else than waiting to die?
I play MMO to interact with other people(generaly to fight them in a way or another) not to beat some dull NPCs which I could have been doing as fine out of MMO.
To me it seems like you are looking and expecting same as you fancy with off-line games.
I don't think you are looking at the right genre.
To make the answer short. Yes, large world networking is in its infancy and will probably never take off. Only a niche in the Video Game market has interest in that type of technology, and we will never see any large advances in it unless a university decides to fund some research or somebody with extra cash decides to get serious ( Microsoft, Blizzard, etc. ).
I think the tech limitations are only part of it (and a small part at that). The gameplay never changes because millions of people are perfectly happy grinding and being on level treadmills.
Devs are lazy, and more immersive titles would not only be cost-prohibitive but a nightmare to administer. There's no reason for them to change the gameplay, since mmo's are currently a money-printing license once the development costs are over and the game has been deployed.
As someone said above me, you are in the wrong genre if you're looking for immersion. Single player games or private servers are the only places you'll find that.
@Gdemami, I'm sorry, but there are so many misinterpretations in your post that I'll have a hard time replying, but I'll try my best.
"Better" is a comparitive term. It compares one thing to another, or a think to some form of status quo. Usage of the word is not dependant upon any level of specificity or generality. In my case, the proper way I would answer the question I asked is something like "Yes, I think these games could be made better, and here's why..." or "No, this is the best we can do because of..." or even "I don't know."
To imply I'm narrow-minded because I seek to understand why things are the way they are is just... well it's narrow minded.
You'll have to explain what you mean by AoC being quite a difference from WoW. Any time I want, I can sit and watch PvP on AoC between real players, see the moves they make and the actions they take, and I don't see quite a difference.
Now, as for the level of challenge in PvE content. If you're talking about just MMOs, then I agree. however, if you also include killing NPCs in single player games, then I disagree. But either way, I believe NPCs can be made fun to fight. And I wasn't talking just about combat. What if you played an MMO where the animals acted like animals, walking in packs, sleeping, attacking other animals for food or eating off a tree? That would greatly increase immersion, and if you disagree, then that's a matter of opinion, not a matter of debate.
I play MMOs to interact with people, cooperate with them, establish myself any way that I can, be it crafting, building cities, or anything. My favorite thing, is killing NPCs with friends. I would love if it were made more immersive, and I can think of lots of ways to accomplish this.
@thinktank001. The age of networking is beyond me, in relative terms. However, I strongly disagree with your assertion that large scale networking won't take off. First, it already has: what do you think the internet is? Second, it is getting better, look at Youtube, Google Earth, Newgrounds... nothing like this existed when Asheron's Call came out. Among other things, these represent that the amount of data that can be sent from you, to a server and back, utilizing a Client/Server architecture has increased by hundreds of percent or more in this last decade. And, as the internet gets better, so will the technologies utilized in MMOs.
@veritas_X, I agree. In fact, that would be my greatest fear, as far as MMOs are concerned. However, I believe that players will respond to an original title favorably as long as it's properly executed and advertised. It seems like the most original MMOs we've had fail, not because players aren't interested, but because the Developer's screwed something major up, or because it wasn't properly exposed.
I guess you made some assumption about a state of 'general MMO' and asking people wheter there could be done an improvement in some aspect of the game regarding that your very own assumption.
This won't get you an answer from me, sorry.
I will ask you again. Did you PVP in AoC?
Looking and performing are two different things.
Yes, I had MMO in mind since there is nothing else apart from PVE in single player games.
As I already said, this is a technical issue. AI takes large loads of CPU usage which current technology isn't able to take. Don't expect anything to change any time soon.
Immersion is subjective.
It should be obvious: first-person camera. Oblivion puts effort into its 1st person cam and almost no effort into its 3rd person cam (which I've heard people who have worked on Oblivion admit was a mistake to even bother implementing.) MMORPGs do the opposite. Therefore Oblivion is more immersive.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It should be obvious: first-person camera. Oblivion puts effort into its 1st person cam and almost no effort into its 3rd person cam (which I've heard people who have worked on Oblivion admit was a mistake to even bother implementing.) MMORPGs do the opposite. Therefore Oblivion is more immersive.
1st Person view is NOT obvious more immersive.
I tend to like both but to say 1st person is more immersive I will disagree, but will say they both can be, it depends if a person wants a unrealistic field of view then 1st person it is as it's a very narrow view compared to how we look with our eye's in real life, does a person want a more realistic field of view then 3rd person shows you more of a world in a natural way like how you actualy look thru your eye's. Only thing with this is you see the back of your character, yet see have a more realistic field of view.
Well fine. It's not "obvious", but it is true. :P
Any game where one of the goals is to create the semblence of a realistic world, a 1st person view will deliver a greater sensation of being in that world than a 3rd person view. (and even fantasy worlds want to be believable where they can, as that helps with suspension of disbelief..and well...immersion.)
Do the gains in immersion always outweigh the potential losses in gameplay? Not always. Which is why many MMORPGs opt for 3rd person view, which has gameplay benefits (seeing what's attacking you) and vanity benefits (you get to see the cool crap your char is wearing, and the awesome spells/abilities you use are much more spectacular in 3rd than 1st.)
And of course there are games where 1st person doesn't make sense at all regarding immersion (the most immersive/flow-laden games I know are puzzle games, which have a completely arbitrary camera scheme.)
But since we're talking about MMORPGs, 1st person is great for immersion. It's just that immersion might not be the most important thing the developer is going for.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The fact you find 1st person view more immersive does not make it for others.
Fixed
Just know that what you or me feel is immersive does not mean it is a fact for everyone. Reason for the small fix, don't hate me for it.
I'm not sure an mmo company could ever put the mechanics of a game like Fallout 3 into an mmorpg....it just seems unrealistic to me. My guess is they'll never do it, or not during our online gaming lives anyway.
To be honest, I dont want a world such as Fallout in an MMO. I perfer to emmerse myself with huge games like Fallout in single player. I can avoid the immature kids and dirty old men much easier in single player rpgs...which makes emmersion overall much better for me. I play mmos for the social aspect more then to emmerse myself in the world personally.
Give me a polished / fun mmo and I'm happy. I could care less how non-linear the game is.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
This is less my own subjective opinion and more what I've observed players comment on (especially regarding Oblivion's immersion factor.) Plenty of players can point out un-fun aspects of Oblivion (the auto-difficulty system), or particularly unimmersive aspects of Oblivion (hearing many people speak with the same voiceactor,) but I've never heard anyone try to claim the 1st person view (which matches our own real-world view) was less immersive than a 3rd person view.
If people were using the term flow instead of immersion, that might help. Flow is detached from any need for believability, whereas immersion I've almost always seen used to describe believable worlds that sucked players in. I'd be the first to admit that 1st person view isn't necessarily better for flow.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is less my own subjective opinion and more what I've observed players comment on (especially regarding Oblivion's immersion factor.) Plenty of players can point out un-fun aspects of Oblivion (the auto-difficulty system), or particularly unimmersive aspects of Oblivion (hearing many people speak with the same voiceactor,) but I've never heard anyone try to claim the 1st person view (which matches our own real-world view) was less immersive than a 3rd person view.
If people were using the term flow instead of immersion, that might help. Flow is detached from any need for believability, whereas immersion I've almost always seen used to describe believable worlds that sucked players in. I'd be the first to admit that 1st person view isn't necessarily better for flow.
Just a very true fact: First person view does NOT match our own real world view, and that is a fact. It does try to.
The mood and feel of the game do a much better job immersing you in a world than the view. I've played LOADS of FPSs that do a sh%$^#tty job of immersing you while others do it very well. I've also played loads of 3rd person games that immersed me as well as any FPS. The view actually has very little to do with it. It really just depends on the game. I've been heavily immersed in everything from HalfLife to Phantasy Star2 to Gears of War to Fallout to WOW to SIlent Hill and on and on....and I'm sure I'm not alone=) The MOOD and design of the world does the immersion. Its more about how well the game plays, looks and sounds because the less you're worried about the UI, controls, quirks and bugs, the more you're just playing and forgetting about all the technical aspects. THAT's immersion.
A FP view actually does a really cruddy job of allowing optimal gameplay in groups. Its just far too limiting, esspecially for support in RvR. You need the birds eye view to really tell whats going on around you. Being stuck in first person sucks. I've tried it in a few MMOs and its amazing how much worse you play. No thanks. I don't think I'll ever play one that doesnt' allow you to zoom the camera back.