I should probably start by saying I don't see F2P players as any sort of sub-class because they can't afford to, or choose not to pay for a subscription. I also accept that a group focused game like DDO could certainly do with more players because it greases the game's wheels. That is at all levels, not just the early levels, so I wouldn't agree only having F2P players at lower levels is all that is needed (it has to be attractive enough for F2P to buy, and time alone will tell if this works).
However like it or not someone has to pay, if it were all free then no subscription income, no B2P income, and limited shop income, which isn't going to work. It certainly isn't going to pay for more free content, and DDO needs content pumped in faster, not slower.
I'm going to go with papadam on this one. Just because a game is dubbed F2P or changes it's model from subscription to micro-transaction does not give you a "RIGHT" to play the game. Instead of terming it F2P perhaps view it as an extended sample or free trial. Companies exist to make money. And if you're upset because you can't screw them out of money, then I can't say i'm sorry you won't be playing. Games live and breath based on the income they make, not the number of players they shove into a server. So instead of complaining about the "grinding" and "rerolling" you'll have to do to play the entire game for free, how about you pony up $15/mo and get all the content, classes, races, and leveling for free. Or you can just pay for things as you want or need them and perhaps it will be more, or less than $15 / month over the time frame you play.
I'm not trying to be a complete freeloader either, though Free2Play does indicate it should be possible.
How much would it cost in $ total, using only the CS, to raise two characters to max level as well as get access to all the various parts of the game?
I was able to get a couple characters to end game without paying anything, other than the free TP that was given to me in beta. I think it was around 3500. So that's about $35 to get two characters to end.
Did I do instances over and over? I sure did. Did I delete my characters over and over? Not once. Did I get access to all parts of the game? No. But some people that I had grouped with used their free TP to get me into some of the dungeons. They paid for my one time entrance fee, which was kind of cool to see available. In case you have a friend who is free to play and you are VIP you can use the TP given to you to allow them a one time access.
I'm not saying it's a perfect setup but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. When it goes live though I will probably bounce between VIP and F2P.
*snipped*
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I'm not trying to be a complete freeloader either, though Free2Play does indicate it should be possible.
How much would it cost in $ total, using only the CS, to raise two characters to max level as well as get access to all the various parts of the game?
I was able to get a couple characters to end game without paying anything, other than the free TP that was given to me in beta. I think it was around 3500. So that's about $35 to get two characters to end.
Did I do instances over and over? I sure did. Did I delete my characters over and over? Not once. Did I get access to all parts of the game? No. But some people that I had grouped with used their free TP to get me into some of the dungeons. They paid for my one time entrance fee, which was kind of cool to see available. In case you have a friend who is free to play and you are VIP you can use the TP given to you to allow them a one time access.
I'm not saying it's a perfect setup but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. When it goes live though I will probably bounce between VIP and F2P.
Snipped.
Yet I pay my 15 a month to keep playing. I do not hate DDO. I am realistinc and telling people to avoid me will get you reported. That is againt the TOS of this site and not part of the post. Debate what I say with facts or even opinions and I can accept that. Doing what you just did is wrong.
I have been with DDO over 3 years and their history of screwing up is pretty clear. The devs do nice work though.
How much would it cost in $ total, using only the CS, to raise two characters to max level as well as get access to all the various parts of the game?
Id say somewhere around 200 $ US would be realistic. Of course this is a figure that im just throwing out there based on what i remember from the beta, and thats prone to changes, because not even Turbine would go with the insane exchange rates they had during beta. If you ask my opinion, id say subscribe for a month. That way you can play through some of the premier modules and end game raids and maybe make mental notes as to what you should acquire on a free account. That is if you absolutely dont want to pay the monthly fee, or dont afford to.
BaneShade, it would cost a 1 month subscription to get more then what you would need. This amount would be approximately $15 USD. The catch would be having to spend time grinding out experiance points. If you're a casual type of player there's no timeframe that could be given to how long it would take, but if you're the kind of person who plays for 4-6 hours everyday you could possibly do it in a month; sanity not withstanding.
A subscription also gives free Turbine Points to use in the Item Mall.
The resolution is simple. Play for a month or so, but DONT spend ANY money. See where you end up.
You may or not hit level cap, but certainly your character will be ridiculously undergeared because all quests with good loot are premium only.
But, why not just try it? It`s a good game, you may even pay money for it eventually.
It'll be free to play soon. No need to write a PHD thesis about it. Just try it out. If you dont like it, just stop. Nothing lost.
>>I challenge that notion. People who play for free may have the luxury of enjoying themselves, >>but they also serve another purpose. Life! A game devoid of players is a game that's dead and >>boring.
>>In that context, I guess it makes sense for Turbine to lock out all the scroogy noobs from the >>advanced content, so returning heroes can feel suitably overpowered.
Any and all quests worth running for loot or power is pay to play.
A long discussion. The resolution is simple. Play for a month or so, but DONT spend ANY money. See where you end up. You may or not hit level cap, but certainly your character will be ridiculously undergeared because all quests with good loot are premium only. But, why not just try it? It`s a good game, you may even pay money for it eventually.
It'll be free to play soon. No need to write a PHD thesis about it. Just try it out. If you dont like it, just stop. Nothing lost.
>>I challenge that notion. People who play for free may have the luxury of enjoying themselves, >>but they also serve another purpose. Life! A game devoid of players is a game that's dead and >>boring. >>In that context, I guess it makes sense for Turbine to lock out all the scroogy noobs from the >>advanced content, so returning heroes can feel suitably overpowered.
Any and all quests worth running for loot or power is pay to play.
And don't forget Turbine is giving you free Turbine Points for questing (favor) and completing major story archs, even on Khortos. Without restricting you in any way - so if you're poor, you can focus on grinding TP and then unlock more characters slots (with those or 400 favor - drow) to grind even faster.
It all depends on you. And that's genious idea, almost everyone can play and have much fun. Plus, don't forget that Auction House is selling to all players.
PS: On your last sentence - Waterworks are free. And qualify as "good loot" and "power" at that stage.
"And don't forget Turbine is giving you free Turbine Points for questing (favor) and completing major story archs, even on Khortos. Without restricting you in any way - so if you're poor, you can focus on grinding TP and then unlock more characters slots (with those or 400 favor - drow) to grind even faster."
Uhm... cough... look here for my opinion on TP grind
"PS: On your last sentence - Waterworks are free. And qualify as "good loot" and "power" at that stage."
Not really. Waterworks is ok loot for level 2. Certainly not great. Noone cares about level 2 loot anyways (why would you?). The most popular loot thingy from WW can be replicated with very, very cheap potions (Back Widow Bracers -> Mage Armor Potions).
And level 2 loot isnt really much of a standard... Not now with l16 cap and certainly not with l20 cap.
But yes, Waterworks at level 2 is the last thing that the FtP player will run together with the subscribers. From then on, the subscribers will run the good stuff while the FtP player will grind the crap.
"And don't forget Turbine is giving you free Turbine Points for questing (favor) and completing major story archs, even on Khortos. Without restricting you in any way - so if you're poor, you can focus on grinding TP and then unlock more characters slots (with those or 400 favor - drow) to grind even faster." Uhm... cough... look here for my opinion on TP grind www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3036465 "PS: On your last sentence - Waterworks are free. And qualify as "good loot" and "power" at that stage." Not really. Waterworks is ok loot for level 2. Certainly not great. Noone cares about level 2 loot anyways (why would you?). The most popular loot thingy from WW can be replicated with very, very cheap potions (Back Widow Bracers -> Mage Armor Potions). And level 2 loot isnt really much of a standard... Not now with l16 cap and certainly not with l20 cap.
But yes, Waterworks at level 2 is the last thing that the FtP player will run together with the subscribers. From then on, the subscribers will run the good stuff while the FtP player will grind the crap.
I'll read it later, going to sleep now.
But tell me. Why do you old vets always forget that for NEW players this is exactly opposite? They want nice items, don't have enough money for potions, etc.
Also, I disagree DDO level cap is 3 months for a new player. Trust me, most will do it in about a year or half. Most players don't play that much or ask for items to make it faster. They want to experiment, take their time. Hardcore types? That's another story, but hardcore players aren't "most" of the players.
Other than that, I agree of course. When you play for some time, that's more in the way you wrote. Till then, it's really different.
A long discussion. The resolution is simple. Play for a month or so, but DONT spend ANY money. See where you end up. You may or not hit level cap, but certainly your character will be ridiculously undergeared because all quests with good loot are premium only. But, why not just try it? It`s a good game, you may even pay money for it eventually.
It'll be free to play soon. No need to write a PHD thesis about it. Just try it out. If you dont like it, just stop. Nothing lost.
>>I challenge that notion. People who play for free may have the luxury of enjoying themselves, >>but they also serve another purpose. Life! A game devoid of players is a game that's dead and >>boring. >>In that context, I guess it makes sense for Turbine to lock out all the scroogy noobs from the >>advanced content, so returning heroes can feel suitably overpowered.
Any and all quests worth running for loot or power is pay to play.
And don't forget Turbine is giving you free Turbine Points for questing (favor) and completing major story archs, even on Khortos. Without restricting you in any way - so if you're poor, you can focus on grinding TP and then unlock more characters slots (with those or 400 favor - drow) to grind even faster.
It all depends on you. And that's genious idea, almost everyone can play and have much fun. Plus, don't forget that Auction House is selling to all players.
PS: On your last sentence - Waterworks are free. And qualify as "good loot" and "power" at that stage.
If new players can not afford potions how will they afford the Auction House? Sarr you are on Thelanis now go take a look at the AH. I see +2 strength items will prices of 20k Platinum. How many people do you know that can benefit from +2 STR yet afford that price? Vets not new players. The DDO economy in game needs a huge overhaul or new players and the F2P will not be using the AH anytime soon.
The Turbine points for favor and questing will be minimal. It is not like one character is going to get thousands of Turbine points for favor and questing, not that they should since players spending mnoney is the only way this game survives, so lets keep that in mind.
Originally posted by Sarr I'll read it later, going to sleep now. But tell me. Why do you old vets always forget that for NEW players this is exactly opposite? They want nice items, don't have enough money for potions, etc. Also, I disagree DDO level cap is 3 months for a new player. Trust me, most will do it in about a year or half. Most players don't play that much or ask for items to make it faster. They want to experiment, take their time. Hardcore types? That's another story, but hardcore players aren't "most" of the players. Other than that, I agree of course. When you play for some time, that's more in the way you wrote. Till then, it's really different.
The question was if players who use the cash shop and/or have access to all the quests in the game will be more powerful than someone who doesnt.
The answer is simply, "Yes", and the trash loot from a level 2 quest doesnt change that. A NEW player asked a question, i answered it truthfully. Simple.
And yes, EVERYONE has enough money for Mage Armor potions. They are dirt cheap, cost pocket change, even for brand new players. But i dont see what this has to do in a newbie thread.
I donot trust you about "most will cap in a year". That is simply ridiculous. Yes, if they play 1 hour per week. Typically, players will play more. 3 months is realistic.
Thank you all for the info and discussion so far. It's very interesting.
I'm a bit disappointed that some people still act like I'm trying to be a complete freeloader and not support the game in any way. That's simply not true. I've kept saying I wish for a game to encourage spending, rather than force it. Obviously a gaming company needs income some way or other, but the way it goes about getting that money is going to strongly color the gaming experience. All I have to go by is turbine's official word that anyone can access all the game content without spending a dime, depending on the kind of player they are. So excuse me for drilling in that statement and trying to find out if they really meant it.
I can appreciate that DDO is different from WoW and Korean grind fests. Thank goodness for that. On the other hand, that's why I started this thread in the first place, since I'm not familiar with the the F2P structure of this game and would like to know in advance.
If I wanted to wait and find out after launch, well I wouldn't have asked here. Plus I think this thread has brought to light a great many other things that would otherwise have taken quite a bit of digging and asking around. So I'm very happy with all the responses, feedback and discussion this thread as seen. Thank you all once more.
Thank you all for the info and discussion so far. It's very interesting.
I'm a bit disappointed that some people still act like I'm trying to be a complete freeloader and not support the game in any way. That's simply not true. I've kept saying I wish for a game to encourage spending, rather than force it. Obviously a gaming company needs income some way or other, but the way it goes about getting that money is going to strongly color the gaming experience. All I have to go by is turbine's official word that anyone can access all the game content without spending a dime, depending on the kind of player they are. So excuse me for drilling in that statement and trying to find out if they really meant it. I can appreciate that DDO is different from WoW and Korean grind fests. Thank goodness for that. On the other hand, that's why I started this thread in the first place, since I'm not familiar with the the F2P structure of this game and would like to know in advance. If I wanted to wait and find out after launch, well I wouldn't have asked here. Plus I think this thread has brought to light a great many other things that would otherwise have taken quite a bit of digging and asking around. So I'm very happy with all the responses, feedback and discussion this thread as seen. Thank you all once more.
Until the release no one can really know for sure since prices in the store are subject to change and the beta ended a week ago. There very well could be tweaks up or down to prices on many things the store offers.
Sure anyone can access all the content without spending a dime but the fact is it will take multiple rerolls and then spending to buy character slots and then rolling those as new chars to pay for everything. There will be a way around it, such as getting guildies with everything open on elite to run a couple of characters to say 2000 favor. I might do it just to see how much favoe it takes to open all content and buy full character slots. Would be interesting to see how much it costs in favor and quests that pay out.
How many people would want to grind that much though? The same people who talk about the majority of gamers being casuals say it can be done, but if the majority are casual then we will see very few willing to reroll over and over. My guess is a vet of the game in a power guild gets his buddies to power favor him, unlike XP favor is not level restricted as in you can run a quest for no XP and still get favor, buys all his slots and content and by the end of September is fully paid off in Turbine points for all content available as of the new release.
Yes it is possible, but I bet if some vets use guilds to power favor Turbine changes how it works to close that loop hole real fast.
Thank you all for the info and discussion so far. It's very interesting.
I'm a bit disappointed that some people still act like I'm trying to be a complete freeloader and not support the game in any way. That's simply not true. I've kept saying I wish for a game to encourage spending, rather than force it. Obviously a gaming company needs income some way or other, but the way it goes about getting that money is going to strongly color the gaming experience. All I have to go by is turbine's official word that anyone can access all the game content without spending a dime, depending on the kind of player they are. So excuse me for drilling in that statement and trying to find out if they really meant it. I can appreciate that DDO is different from WoW and Korean grind fests. Thank goodness for that. On the other hand, that's why I started this thread in the first place, since I'm not familiar with the the F2P structure of this game and would like to know in advance. If I wanted to wait and find out after launch, well I wouldn't have asked here. Plus I think this thread has brought to light a great many other things that would otherwise have taken quite a bit of digging and asking around. So I'm very happy with all the responses, feedback and discussion this thread as seen. Thank you all once more.
I think its only possible in theory, I dont think that Turbine means that people are going to unlock all adventure packs and stuff for free.. it will probably take years of grinding. But you can probably get to lvl 20 without buying anything but that wont be easy either. Its like buying expansions in WoW when they raise the level cap but without the monthly fee.
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
I've been a casual player for 2 years now [casual = <10hr/week]. I am NOWHERE near level cap [with all 10 characters-I have 4 playing characters and 6 mules]. My highest characters are 8th and 6th level.
I think that powergamers that play 30+ hrs/week will find that the game FORCES one to use the store.
"Normal" gamers playing 10-20hrs will notice the need for the store, but may find periodic sales on TP such that the use doesn't seem as forced.
Casual/ultra-casual gamers like myself would find the store ENCOURAGING as it would be needed after a few weeks [unless a level sigil were found] but then not needed for a few months. Again, sales on TP would would be watched for.
As a two-account VIP, I will not buy many points - however, when there was I "lightning sale" of 400TP for $2 during beta, I jumped at it. I hope Turbine noticed that the lower amounts of TP at prices of $.01 [no cent key anymore?] or less produced sales from players who hadn't purchased any TP before that. The higher amounts of TP/higher cost didn't work [for me] - 3800TP for $31 didn't make me jump, even though the price was "worth it".
That does sound rather awful. :-/ Can you explain why you'd have to reroll characters over and over again?
I usually pick one, maybe two characters, and stick with them. You're saying that's not an option? Also, again according to official announcements, it's possible to earn turbine points to purchase access to higher level content and also the sigils for raising level caps. What kind of commitment is a potential player looking at to accrue enough points to purchase that kind of content?
I play like you do. I like to create a few characters and stick with them.
Unfortunately, DDO has some of the worst mechanics I've ever seen in an MMO in regards to character. Rerolling because I'd like to adjust stats, try different things is fine with me. But in DDO, they use this thing called favor solely to get you to repeat content over and over. You run a character through most of the content, and as a reward get to create a new character with better stats and START ALL OVER AGAIN on a new character. It's what drove me away from the game. I enjoyed playing lots of characters until they implemented this. After that, they just felt worthless. You're penalized by playstyle. If you enjoy playing with multiple character builds as I did, you're screwed. If you're a zerger who doesn't mind rerunning content ad nauseum and starting over again and again, it's not as bad.
With F2P, I'd think this is even worse. Example:
Your only option initially is to either buy drow or start with a 28 point character.
If you start with a 28 pointer, at 400 favor, you now have earned the option of having a drow. I personally never cared for drow, but drow's startup points are 32 points and has starting attribute differences that make it an excellent choice for some classes. For others where the attribute deficiencies hit the core stats for the class, it's not so great.
So now you have your starter character and the option to roll a 'newer better' character as a drow. If you roll a drow, then eventually after 1750 favor (not a small feat for a casual player), you get the option to roll yet another character. This time, much better, any of the original starting races will have 32 points instead of 28 points. So now if you'd like your character to be all that you can be, you can reroll a brand new player yet again and repeat all the content, again. If you're F2P, you only have two slots, so you either have to buy a slot to take advantage of this or delete one of the two toons you originally ran with. Just not appealing imo.
Assuming a brand new player decided to buy drow from the get go, at least they'd have an available slot when they open 32 point builds.
If you start out and make the mistake of creating two classes you enjoy playing, then when you have the option for 32 point builds, both characters (and more if you bought additional slots) will always be 28 pointers unless you reroll. So you ONLY get the reward if you reroll.
A very broken mechanic, imo. I'm going to play some F2P with friends who've been bugging me to come back, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it for a bit, if only to play it with them again. But I really hate the way DDO makes you feel like you're wasting your time. Wouldn't surprise me if they add a 36 point build some day for 5000 favor. They don't have much content (although there's alot more than there used to be), so it seems they go out of their way to make you redo it all. Sad thing is, if they didn't have this ridiculous mechanic, I'm the type that would probably create a lot of characters with different class combinations for fun.
I play a game to spend time creating a character I enjoy, trying to build them up, not spend time on them so I can throw them away and reroll.
I play like you do. I like to create a few characters and stick with them. Unfortunately, DDO has some of the worst mechanics I've ever seen in an MMO in regards to character. Rerolling because I'd like to adjust stats, try different things is fine with me. But in DDO, they use this thing called favor solely to get you to repeat content over and over. You run a character through most of the content, and as a reward get to create a new character with better stats and START ALL OVER AGAIN on a new character. It's what drove me away from the game. I enjoyed playing lots of characters until they implemented this. After that, they just felt worthless. You're penalized by playstyle. If you enjoy playing with multiple character builds as I did, you're screwed. If you're a zerger who doesn't mind rerunning content ad nauseum and starting over again and again, it's not as bad. With F2P, I'd think this is even worse. Example: Your only option initially is to either buy drow or start with a 28 point character. If you start with a 28 pointer, at 400 favor, you now have earned the option of having a drow. I personally never cared for drow, but drow's startup points are 32 points and has starting attribute differences that make it an excellent choice for some classes. For others where the attribute deficiencies hit the core stats for the class, it's not so great. So now you have your starter character and the option to roll a 'newer better' character as a drow. If you roll a drow, then eventually after 1750 favor (not a small feat for a casual player), you get the option to roll yet another character. This time, much better, any of the original starting races will have 32 points instead of 28 points. So now if you'd like your character to be all that you can be, you can reroll a brand new player yet again and repeat all the content, again. If you're F2P, you only have two slots, so you either have to buy a slot to take advantage of this or delete one of the two toons you originally ran with. Just not appealing imo. Assuming a brand new player decided to buy drow from the get go, at least they'd have an available slot when they open 32 point builds. If you start out and make the mistake of creating two classes you enjoy playing, then when you have the option for 32 point builds, both characters (and more if you bought additional slots) will always be 28 pointers unless you reroll. So you ONLY get the reward if you reroll. A very broken mechanic, imo. I'm going to play some F2P with friends who've been bugging me to come back, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it for a bit, if only to play it with them again. But I really hate the way DDO makes you feel like you're wasting your time. Wouldn't surprise me if they add a 36 point build some day for 5000 favor. They don't have much content (although there's alot more than there used to be), so it seems they go out of their way to make you redo it all. Sad thing is, if they didn't have this ridiculous mechanic, I'm the type that would probably create a lot of characters with different class combinations for fun. I play a game to spend time creating a character I enjoy, trying to build them up, not spend time on them so I can throw them away and reroll.
That's your opinion. For me Favor is a thing which allows me to unlock many nice benefits, like larger backpack, new race, long lasting buffs, a new class, etc.
I don't need to grind it and never do it. Just because someone wants to grind for something, it doesn't mean it's built for grinding.
For me, it's a logical system which rewards me for my accomplishments in the game. Pretty nice - WoW faction system rewards very rarely, here - Favor system - rather often. I like it.
That's your opinion. For me Favor is a thing which allows me to unlock many nice benefits, like larger backpack, new race, long lasting buffs, a new class, etc. I don't need to grind it and never do it. Just because someone wants to grind for something, it doesn't mean it's built for grinding. For me, it's a logical system which rewards me for my accomplishments in the game. Pretty nice - WoW faction system rewards very rarely, here - Favor system - rather often. I like it.
I was specifically replying to the OPs comment about having to reroll, and imo, the favor rewards for Drow and 32 point builds are not rewards that benefit the character that I'm playing at all.
I like favor for the rewards that benefit my character. One of the first things I did on my characters was grind for the extra bag slot. I enjoyed watching the favor bars and enjoyed accomplishing them whether the reward was good or not. I found that rewarding because my character benefitted. Working for a reward that only benefits the character if I replace it and start over is lame.
Yea I dont like the 32pt thing either and dont understand why they have it. But at the same time as a casual player it will have almost 0 effect on me. I think 32pt is for the min/maxers and dont have much impact on the game.
Actually 32 PT builds have had an impact. Cotent has had to be scaled harder because the average player has 32 point builds. Not just min max people. 32 point is so popular and wanted that Turbine is likely to end up selling that in the store. Go read the DDO forums there was a lot of talk about allowing F2P easier access to 32 point builds. I know you have not played much so you may not be aware of the impact and desire to have that 32 point builds has.
Comments
I should probably start by saying I don't see F2P players as any sort of sub-class because they can't afford to, or choose not to pay for a subscription. I also accept that a group focused game like DDO could certainly do with more players because it greases the game's wheels. That is at all levels, not just the early levels, so I wouldn't agree only having F2P players at lower levels is all that is needed (it has to be attractive enough for F2P to buy, and time alone will tell if this works).
However like it or not someone has to pay, if it were all free then no subscription income, no B2P income, and limited shop income, which isn't going to work. It certainly isn't going to pay for more free content, and DDO needs content pumped in faster, not slower.
Some of a MMO for free is better than nothing?
I'm going to go with papadam on this one. Just because a game is dubbed F2P or changes it's model from subscription to micro-transaction does not give you a "RIGHT" to play the game. Instead of terming it F2P perhaps view it as an extended sample or free trial. Companies exist to make money. And if you're upset because you can't screw them out of money, then I can't say i'm sorry you won't be playing. Games live and breath based on the income they make, not the number of players they shove into a server. So instead of complaining about the "grinding" and "rerolling" you'll have to do to play the entire game for free, how about you pony up $15/mo and get all the content, classes, races, and leveling for free. Or you can just pay for things as you want or need them and perhaps it will be more, or less than $15 / month over the time frame you play.
I was able to get a couple characters to end game without paying anything, other than the free TP that was given to me in beta. I think it was around 3500. So that's about $35 to get two characters to end.
Did I do instances over and over? I sure did. Did I delete my characters over and over? Not once. Did I get access to all parts of the game? No. But some people that I had grouped with used their free TP to get me into some of the dungeons. They paid for my one time entrance fee, which was kind of cool to see available. In case you have a friend who is free to play and you are VIP you can use the TP given to you to allow them a one time access.
I'm not saying it's a perfect setup but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. When it goes live though I will probably bounce between VIP and F2P.
*snipped*
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I was able to get a couple characters to end game without paying anything, other than the free TP that was given to me in beta. I think it was around 3500. So that's about $35 to get two characters to end.
Did I do instances over and over? I sure did. Did I delete my characters over and over? Not once. Did I get access to all parts of the game? No. But some people that I had grouped with used their free TP to get me into some of the dungeons. They paid for my one time entrance fee, which was kind of cool to see available. In case you have a friend who is free to play and you are VIP you can use the TP given to you to allow them a one time access.
I'm not saying it's a perfect setup but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. When it goes live though I will probably bounce between VIP and F2P.
Snipped.
Yet I pay my 15 a month to keep playing. I do not hate DDO. I am realistinc and telling people to avoid me will get you reported. That is againt the TOS of this site and not part of the post. Debate what I say with facts or even opinions and I can accept that. Doing what you just did is wrong.
I have been with DDO over 3 years and their history of screwing up is pretty clear. The devs do nice work though.
Well, I edited my post but I can't edit the one you made with the comment in it.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
Id say somewhere around 200 $ US would be realistic. Of course this is a figure that im just throwing out there based on what i remember from the beta, and thats prone to changes, because not even Turbine would go with the insane exchange rates they had during beta. If you ask my opinion, id say subscribe for a month. That way you can play through some of the premier modules and end game raids and maybe make mental notes as to what you should acquire on a free account. That is if you absolutely dont want to pay the monthly fee, or dont afford to.
BaneShade, it would cost a 1 month subscription to get more then what you would need. This amount would be approximately $15 USD. The catch would be having to spend time grinding out experiance points. If you're a casual type of player there's no timeframe that could be given to how long it would take, but if you're the kind of person who plays for 4-6 hours everyday you could possibly do it in a month; sanity not withstanding.
A subscription also gives free Turbine Points to use in the Item Mall.
A long discussion.
The resolution is simple. Play for a month or so, but DONT spend ANY money. See where you end up.
You may or not hit level cap, but certainly your character will be ridiculously undergeared because all quests with good loot are premium only.
But, why not just try it? It`s a good game, you may even pay money for it eventually.
It'll be free to play soon. No need to write a PHD thesis about it. Just try it out. If you dont like it, just stop. Nothing lost.
>>I challenge that notion. People who play for free may have the luxury of enjoying themselves, >>but they also serve another purpose. Life! A game devoid of players is a game that's dead and >>boring.
>>In that context, I guess it makes sense for Turbine to lock out all the scroogy noobs from the >>advanced content, so returning heroes can feel suitably overpowered.
Any and all quests worth running for loot or power is pay to play.
And don't forget Turbine is giving you free Turbine Points for questing (favor) and completing major story archs, even on Khortos. Without restricting you in any way - so if you're poor, you can focus on grinding TP and then unlock more characters slots (with those or 400 favor - drow) to grind even faster.
It all depends on you. And that's genious idea, almost everyone can play and have much fun. Plus, don't forget that Auction House is selling to all players.
PS: On your last sentence - Waterworks are free. And qualify as "good loot" and "power" at that stage.
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"And don't forget Turbine is giving you free Turbine Points for questing (favor) and completing major story archs, even on Khortos. Without restricting you in any way - so if you're poor, you can focus on grinding TP and then unlock more characters slots (with those or 400 favor - drow) to grind even faster."
Uhm... cough... look here for my opinion on TP grind
www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3036465
"PS: On your last sentence - Waterworks are free. And qualify as "good loot" and "power" at that stage."
Not really. Waterworks is ok loot for level 2. Certainly not great. Noone cares about level 2 loot anyways (why would you?). The most popular loot thingy from WW can be replicated with very, very cheap potions (Back Widow Bracers -> Mage Armor Potions).
And level 2 loot isnt really much of a standard... Not now with l16 cap and certainly not with l20 cap.
But yes, Waterworks at level 2 is the last thing that the FtP player will run together with the subscribers. From then on, the subscribers will run the good stuff while the FtP player will grind the crap.
I'll read it later, going to sleep now.
But tell me. Why do you old vets always forget that for NEW players this is exactly opposite? They want nice items, don't have enough money for potions, etc.
Also, I disagree DDO level cap is 3 months for a new player. Trust me, most will do it in about a year or half. Most players don't play that much or ask for items to make it faster. They want to experiment, take their time. Hardcore types? That's another story, but hardcore players aren't "most" of the players.
Other than that, I agree of course. When you play for some time, that's more in the way you wrote. Till then, it's really different.
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And don't forget Turbine is giving you free Turbine Points for questing (favor) and completing major story archs, even on Khortos. Without restricting you in any way - so if you're poor, you can focus on grinding TP and then unlock more characters slots (with those or 400 favor - drow) to grind even faster.
It all depends on you. And that's genious idea, almost everyone can play and have much fun. Plus, don't forget that Auction House is selling to all players.
PS: On your last sentence - Waterworks are free. And qualify as "good loot" and "power" at that stage.
If new players can not afford potions how will they afford the Auction House? Sarr you are on Thelanis now go take a look at the AH. I see +2 strength items will prices of 20k Platinum. How many people do you know that can benefit from +2 STR yet afford that price? Vets not new players. The DDO economy in game needs a huge overhaul or new players and the F2P will not be using the AH anytime soon.
The Turbine points for favor and questing will be minimal. It is not like one character is going to get thousands of Turbine points for favor and questing, not that they should since players spending mnoney is the only way this game survives, so lets keep that in mind.
The question was if players who use the cash shop and/or have access to all the quests in the game will be more powerful than someone who doesnt.
The answer is simply, "Yes", and the trash loot from a level 2 quest doesnt change that. A NEW player asked a question, i answered it truthfully. Simple.
And yes, EVERYONE has enough money for Mage Armor potions. They are dirt cheap, cost pocket change, even for brand new players. But i dont see what this has to do in a newbie thread.
I donot trust you about "most will cap in a year". That is simply ridiculous. Yes, if they play 1 hour per week. Typically, players will play more. 3 months is realistic.
Thank you all for the info and discussion so far. It's very interesting.
I'm a bit disappointed that some people still act like I'm trying to be a complete freeloader and not support the game in any way. That's simply not true. I've kept saying I wish for a game to encourage spending, rather than force it. Obviously a gaming company needs income some way or other, but the way it goes about getting that money is going to strongly color the gaming experience. All I have to go by is turbine's official word that anyone can access all the game content without spending a dime, depending on the kind of player they are. So excuse me for drilling in that statement and trying to find out if they really meant it.
I can appreciate that DDO is different from WoW and Korean grind fests. Thank goodness for that. On the other hand, that's why I started this thread in the first place, since I'm not familiar with the the F2P structure of this game and would like to know in advance.
If I wanted to wait and find out after launch, well I wouldn't have asked here. Plus I think this thread has brought to light a great many other things that would otherwise have taken quite a bit of digging and asking around. So I'm very happy with all the responses, feedback and discussion this thread as seen. Thank you all once more.
Until the release no one can really know for sure since prices in the store are subject to change and the beta ended a week ago. There very well could be tweaks up or down to prices on many things the store offers.
Sure anyone can access all the content without spending a dime but the fact is it will take multiple rerolls and then spending to buy character slots and then rolling those as new chars to pay for everything. There will be a way around it, such as getting guildies with everything open on elite to run a couple of characters to say 2000 favor. I might do it just to see how much favoe it takes to open all content and buy full character slots. Would be interesting to see how much it costs in favor and quests that pay out.
How many people would want to grind that much though? The same people who talk about the majority of gamers being casuals say it can be done, but if the majority are casual then we will see very few willing to reroll over and over. My guess is a vet of the game in a power guild gets his buddies to power favor him, unlike XP favor is not level restricted as in you can run a quest for no XP and still get favor, buys all his slots and content and by the end of September is fully paid off in Turbine points for all content available as of the new release.
Yes it is possible, but I bet if some vets use guilds to power favor Turbine changes how it works to close that loop hole real fast.
I think its only possible in theory, I dont think that Turbine means that people are going to unlock all adventure packs and stuff for free.. it will probably take years of grinding. But you can probably get to lvl 20 without buying anything but that wont be easy either. Its like buying expansions in WoW when they raise the level cap but without the monthly fee.
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
I've been a casual player for 2 years now [casual = <10hr/week]. I am NOWHERE near level cap [with all 10 characters-I have 4 playing characters and 6 mules]. My highest characters are 8th and 6th level.
I think that powergamers that play 30+ hrs/week will find that the game FORCES one to use the store.
"Normal" gamers playing 10-20hrs will notice the need for the store, but may find periodic sales on TP such that the use doesn't seem as forced.
Casual/ultra-casual gamers like myself would find the store ENCOURAGING as it would be needed after a few weeks [unless a level sigil were found] but then not needed for a few months. Again, sales on TP would would be watched for.
As a two-account VIP, I will not buy many points - however, when there was I "lightning sale" of 400TP for $2 during beta, I jumped at it. I hope Turbine noticed that the lower amounts of TP at prices of $.01 [no cent key anymore?] or less produced sales from players who hadn't purchased any TP before that. The higher amounts of TP/higher cost didn't work [for me] - 3800TP for $31 didn't make me jump, even though the price was "worth it".
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I play like you do. I like to create a few characters and stick with them.
Unfortunately, DDO has some of the worst mechanics I've ever seen in an MMO in regards to character. Rerolling because I'd like to adjust stats, try different things is fine with me. But in DDO, they use this thing called favor solely to get you to repeat content over and over. You run a character through most of the content, and as a reward get to create a new character with better stats and START ALL OVER AGAIN on a new character. It's what drove me away from the game. I enjoyed playing lots of characters until they implemented this. After that, they just felt worthless. You're penalized by playstyle. If you enjoy playing with multiple character builds as I did, you're screwed. If you're a zerger who doesn't mind rerunning content ad nauseum and starting over again and again, it's not as bad.
With F2P, I'd think this is even worse. Example:
Your only option initially is to either buy drow or start with a 28 point character.
If you start with a 28 pointer, at 400 favor, you now have earned the option of having a drow. I personally never cared for drow, but drow's startup points are 32 points and has starting attribute differences that make it an excellent choice for some classes. For others where the attribute deficiencies hit the core stats for the class, it's not so great.
So now you have your starter character and the option to roll a 'newer better' character as a drow. If you roll a drow, then eventually after 1750 favor (not a small feat for a casual player), you get the option to roll yet another character. This time, much better, any of the original starting races will have 32 points instead of 28 points. So now if you'd like your character to be all that you can be, you can reroll a brand new player yet again and repeat all the content, again. If you're F2P, you only have two slots, so you either have to buy a slot to take advantage of this or delete one of the two toons you originally ran with. Just not appealing imo.
Assuming a brand new player decided to buy drow from the get go, at least they'd have an available slot when they open 32 point builds.
If you start out and make the mistake of creating two classes you enjoy playing, then when you have the option for 32 point builds, both characters (and more if you bought additional slots) will always be 28 pointers unless you reroll. So you ONLY get the reward if you reroll.
A very broken mechanic, imo. I'm going to play some F2P with friends who've been bugging me to come back, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it for a bit, if only to play it with them again. But I really hate the way DDO makes you feel like you're wasting your time. Wouldn't surprise me if they add a 36 point build some day for 5000 favor. They don't have much content (although there's alot more than there used to be), so it seems they go out of their way to make you redo it all. Sad thing is, if they didn't have this ridiculous mechanic, I'm the type that would probably create a lot of characters with different class combinations for fun.
I play a game to spend time creating a character I enjoy, trying to build them up, not spend time on them so I can throw them away and reroll.
That's your opinion. For me Favor is a thing which allows me to unlock many nice benefits, like larger backpack, new race, long lasting buffs, a new class, etc.
I don't need to grind it and never do it. Just because someone wants to grind for something, it doesn't mean it's built for grinding.
For me, it's a logical system which rewards me for my accomplishments in the game. Pretty nice - WoW faction system rewards very rarely, here - Favor system - rather often. I like it.
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I was specifically replying to the OPs comment about having to reroll, and imo, the favor rewards for Drow and 32 point builds are not rewards that benefit the character that I'm playing at all.
I like favor for the rewards that benefit my character. One of the first things I did on my characters was grind for the extra bag slot. I enjoyed watching the favor bars and enjoyed accomplishing them whether the reward was good or not. I found that rewarding because my character benefitted. Working for a reward that only benefits the character if I replace it and start over is lame.
Yea I dont like the 32pt thing either and dont understand why they have it.
But at the same time as a casual player it will have almost 0 effect on me. I think 32pt is for the min/maxers and dont have much impact on the game.
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Actually 32 PT builds have had an impact. Cotent has had to be scaled harder because the average player has 32 point builds. Not just min max people. 32 point is so popular and wanted that Turbine is likely to end up selling that in the store. Go read the DDO forums there was a lot of talk about allowing F2P easier access to 32 point builds. I know you have not played much so you may not be aware of the impact and desire to have that 32 point builds has.