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SOE leaders in the industry?
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
I've read, more than once, that SOE is a leader in the MMO industry. Every time I read that, I find myself thinking, "Are they really a leader, and if so, where are they leading this genre?"
We could look at the incomplete, bugged release of this game as an example I suppose; or the controversial revamps, or the introduction of random RMT loot, or the implementing of content that seems just plain silly (e.g. winged Ewoks and Zombies).
I've found, however, that we don't need to look solely at SWG for a sign of where SOE might be "leading" things. Consider, for example, the following comments about other SOE games such as the Matrix Online, Vanguard and Everquest.
Regarding the Matrix: "What yours truly couldn’t help but wonder is – how on earth do you make such a powerful concept as Matrix online such a huge flop? Apparently I’m not alone. It’s not enough that Sony’s purchase led to serious backlashes, as the company apparently seriously slowed the game down.
Furthermore, a recap shows that Sony worked hard to phase out all the characters who were in the movie (oh yes, very wise) making the game an unknown ground for the fans. The slightly flawed combat system in need of tweaks was replaced with a newer, and even more flawed system, and such mindless changes certainly didn’t help.
The general lack of organized events and funky storyline decisions have all spelled eulogies for the game, and Sony sure showed that they know how to beat potentially the best WoW and other fantasy MMO alternative into the ground. Good job, what’s next we ask?"
from: http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/14825/39/
Regarding Vanguard: "Gamespy awarded Vanguard the "Biggest Disappointment" award for 2007.[21] Vanguard also won the awards in the categories for "Least Fun", "Most Desolate" and "Lamest Launch" in the MMORPG.com MMOWTF Awards for the worst games of 2007.[22]
Although SOE was responsible chiefly for marketing, publication, distribution, subscription services and maintenance of game servers, some of SOE's game designers and artists did participate directly in Vanguard's development[13].
Brad M. “Had I had the financial resources, ability to place the product later, etc. I would have given us about 3 more months to get more polish in, more high level content in, and to distance ourselves from the WoW expansion."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard:_Saga_of_Heroes#Reception
Regarding Everquest: "Last week Sony Online Entertainment announced Station Cash, which was met with an uproar from the community. Station Cash is a new virtual currency program that gives players the option buy in-game items from their virtual wallet. This has been seen by many as a short sighted attempt to put money in their pocket without consideration of tomorrow. I don't know about you, but my letter to Santa didn't say anything about getting screwed by Sony. That's how I feel though. I feel somewhat betrayed by the company that I've always talked about as one that listens to their players. It seems that this is no longer true of Sony Online Entertainment.
This isn't the first time that SOE has pushed the same kind of envelope. The launch of Station Exchange back in July of 2005 was met with the same criticism. So what's different this time around? Everything! First of all, we're not getting the choice this time. With Station Exchange they only implemented it on select servers that players had the option to transfer to. The same was true with the introduction of PvP into EverQuest II. First there was discussion which resulted in the creation of dedicated PvP servers because this was what the fans indicated they wanted. This time around it's being forced on everyone, and it was done that way no discussion, no warning and no choice."
from: http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=16377
So, um. SOE is a leader in the MMO industry? Really? Where are they leading it?
Comments
SOE leads nothing.
Funny to see this post. At this year's Blizzcon I actually started to feel a bit sorry for SOE, especially during the battle.net discussion. SOE is lightyears behind what Blizzard is doing - so far behind they may as well scrap their entire way of doing business online and start over.
I think that, at this point, it's clear that sony is rapidly losing momentum in many different markets. I.e. mmo market, Console market. It's not clear when they will Collapse or give up and go back to just making CD players and DVD players, but I'm sure it will happen soon. Sony is losing its grip in the market, but they're too prideful to see or understand it. Even though every one around them sees them slipping.
I realy hope Sony has some kind of plan for pulling themselves up. Surely an "Item mall" is a sign of failure for both SOE and Ever Quest.
Good luck Sony,
Cheers!
MMO Reviewer
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
I agree. SOE leads nothing. But it doesn't stop them from saying they are. "so far behind they may as well scrap their entire way of doing business online and start over." - no they're so far behind that they should scrap it entirely and stop. Sony, in my strongest opinion, doesn't belong in the gaming industry. They had a good run with the playstation 2 and all, but clearly they've been beaten by microsoft there. And SOE is clearly on the verge of failing.
sorry for double posting.
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
SOE only leads to deception.
I will not come here and start defending fervously SOE, but they did do good things. They did save some of the games from ever releasing, they invested in the games that needed investing.
Yes they did some mistakes, but SOE is still one of the top mmorpg companies out there, and don't forget Free Realms, that game is booming like crazy.
Matrix Online failed not because of SOE, it failed because the game concept was bad and also because most of the Matrix fans are not really gamers.
Vanguard needed more time to release because of it's bugs, but SOE invested in it and launched it, without SOE's funding, the game would have never released.
SWG, that was a disaster on the part of SOE, have nothing good to say about that.
EQ and EQII station cash did not affect the game at all, there is nothing that you can buy with station cash that will give you an advantage on others. And actually, being an EQ and EQII player, I see a ton of people ingame who buy the different costumes available with station cash, which means that there is a market for that.
As I said, SOE made some bad decisions over the years, but also made some good decisions. Even Blizzard made some really bad decisions, even bigger than all SOE's bad decisions put together, and that was with the chinese market, when they tried to illegally push their way into there recently even though the laws did not permit them to do so, and they lost millions of subs because of that. NCSoft also made some bad decisions with some of it's game. There is no company out there that never makes bad decisions.
Peace
Doesn't it seem kind of strange that in the wake of Free Realms alleged mega-success that SOE announced layoffs?
It also made me wonder when friends of mine said they found themselves listed as active players of Free Realms when they had never once played the game.
As for EQ not being affected by station cash, hmm, well apparently some people feel very differently: see quote above. As for Vanguard, SOE's involvement in development and setting the timelines for release is included in the above quotes I believe.
You seem to minimize or dismiss some of SOE's well-publicized controversies, and at the same time shift the focus onto the alleged mistakes of other game companies. Fascinating. I'd almost think that was intentional -_^.
P.S. Did you say Matrix fans are not gamers? Lol, okay, I think you just went somewhere beyond the bounds of credibility. No, Matrix fans would have no interest in online computer games....0_o
couldn't lead a boy scout to a candy store
Doesn't it seem kind of strange that in the wake of Free Realms alleged mega-success that SOE announced layoffs?
It also made me wonder when friends of mine said they found themselves listed as active players of Free Realms when they had never once played the game.
As for EQ not being affected by station cash, hmm, well apparently some people feel very differently: see quote above. As for Vanguard, SOE's involvement in development and setting the timelines for release is included in the above quotes I believe.
You seem to minimize or dismiss some of SOE's well-publicized controversies, and at the same time shift the focus onto the alleged mistakes of other game companies. Fascinating. I'd almost think that was intentional -_^.
P.S. Did you say Matrix fans are not gamers? Lol, okay, I think you just went somewhere beyond the bounds of credibility. No, Matrix fans would have no interest in online computer games....0_o
Well first of all, like I said I am not here to defend anyone, neither SOE, Blizzard, NCSoft, or any of the smaller companies ever pad me a penny, I am giving my point of view from what I experienced.
I find it a little far fetched that your friend was considered an active player when he never even tried the game. I have accounts in almost every SOE games, and I never opened an account in Free Realms, and I am not considered having an active Free Realms, logically, it's players like me that they would target and add an active account to a free game if they wanted to just create the subs.
I am not minimizing or diverting SOE's mistakes onto other companies, I only stated that other companies also make mistakes, and I gave a recent example that's all.
I admit that some of the SOE games would have been better without SOE involvement, for example SWG, but I also see the reality of things and know that some games would not have existed without the financial help of SOE.
I am surrounded by Matrix (the movie) fans, a lot of my friends, even today, consider Matrix one of their favourite movies, and none of them would come close to a video game. They like the idea of the movie, the virtual world and such. But they also like the idea that it's a movie and that it's unreachable.
Not all Star Wars fans are gamers, actually most of them might be table top gamers, or non gamers. Not because you like a fantasy movie that you're necessarily a fantasy gamer, or a sci-fi fan doesn't nexessarily translate into a Sci-fi gamer.
Matrix Online never even came close to being good. It's not like the game attracted all the fans and then disappointed them and made them leave. The game had barely any subs from release.
The bottom line is, whatever industry you're in, sometimes you make small mistakes, sometimes huge mistakes, but they all make mistakes. I do not care if it's SOE or any other game that owns the games that are dear to me, I like EQ because I like EQ, not because I like SOE, I will continue supporting EQ if it was sold to another company someday.
You guys just accord too much importance to these companies like if they were feeding you. Blizzard, SOE, or any other company, they don't care abot the players, all they want is their money. The day you stop giving them money, they will let you down. Just play the games you like, and if a company screws it up, just change games and find something else you like instead of repeating the same thing for 8 years, SOE destroyed SWG, SOE destroyed SWG.
ohhh btw soe destroyed swg !!!!!
You want loot? Go kill some npcs, you wanna visit hades? come find ME, and dont forget to bring coins for the ferryman,
I'd have to say that SOE are leaders. The problem here, is what are they leading to?
1. They are certainly industry leaders in massive game re-vamps/CHANGES. They are leaders in the "We can CHANGE the game enough to save it" catagory. (Interesting to note all their CHANGES have lead to lost subs) Has this buisness plan transfered to AoC and now even WoW?
2. They could be construed as leaders in how to run 20+ dead servers.
3. They are leaders in a buy virtual items store that is nothing more than a lottery. You may get the item your looking for, but probably will not. (Spend more money, please) And after you do get the item, you don't own the item, you just rent it.
4. They are leaders at spin. With the coming of TOR, they keep spinning how SWG will be just fine, how LA is still behind them 1000%, and how in a decreased economy LA would be just fine with competing with itself and all the other MMORPGs out there, existing and upcoming.
5. They are leaders of deception. Release a game expansion and a few weeks later, remove a bunch of content for professions (and the professions theirselves) in yet another attempt at a massive game revamp/CHANGE.
6. #1 in customer dis-satisfaction. You know you've made it when a non MMO providing gameing site has to create a "refuge" forum for all your lost customers.
7. They are leaders at bombing games. Wasn't SWG, at one time, the 2nd largest in the industry?
And thru all their leadership, others in the industry have realised their contributions and have acted accordingly. http://www.startrekonline.com/node/213
I'd say that their place of leadership is well entrained in the industry, now.
SOE was a leader.
Then they started to buy and destroy MMOs.
Personally I think SE(Square Enix) is or will be the next MMO leader.
Every MMO company is a leader in the industry in the same way that every TV station is the "most watched on television".
No, I don't think they're an industry leader anymore. Not for a long time.
But I do think they can be again. All it would take is new management with a greater understanding of what gamers are looking for and the balls to do something about it.
WINNER!
Point Awarded!
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
So can we say ZAM is the Mouth of Sauron, I mean SOE?
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
So can we say ZAM is the Mouth of Sauron, I mean SOE?
Interestingly enough, the scathing review of SOE came from none other than:
Andrew "Tamat" Beegle
Editor-in-Chief
Allakhazam.com
I think he formerly stood behind SOE, but didn't feel he could continue to do so when the RMT loot was introduced to Everquest. He seemed particularly irked by the way it was introduced: no discussion, no choice etc.. Smed also previously stated that he was against RMT in Everquest. Lo and behold, there it is.
Something I think I've noticed about SOE revamps: While SOE is saying they have made the game better, the customers (those actually playing the game) seem to express different viewpoints:
Regarding Matrix online's combat revamp:
"The slightly flawed combat system in need of tweaks was replaced with a newer, and even more flawed system."
Also regarding Matrix online changes following SOE's purchase:
"... when The Matrix Online transitioned to Sony Online Entertainment the program underwent a radical change in direction as part of similar changes to the other story telling devices, most importantly, the scale and frequency of live events following the departure of a dedicated Live Events Team.
The group were given the new task of playing minor supporting roles (known as organization liaison officers) during future live events[3] or even more permanent characters to enhance interaction between players,[4] essentially replacing the paid staff of the LET with volunteer players."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_online
Claims that combat revamps were well received by SWG customers are now legendary:
"Brekkee - *Zeto-Starsider* Why continue with the NGE even though the overwhelmingly negative response? I personally know of ALOT of people quitting over this.
SWG-TSlothrop - Actually, we have had a pretty positive response to the enhancements.
SWG-TSlothrop - Certainly, many veteran players have had issues with it, but this is really just the nature of change.
SWG-TSlothrop - Most everyone else sees that we are finally delivering on the fantasy of Star Wars"
from the SWG Stratics chat immediately following the NGE.
"Most everyone else sees that we are finally delivering on the fantasy of Star Wars." Lol, wow, maybe these are the same people that consider SOE to be a leader in the industry.
I don't think they could lead a man to salt water that was swimming in an ocean of it.
soe spy sappin' mah thread!
Pretty well sums up my thoughts perfectly.
QFT.
yes soe are leaders in the industry there is no doubt about it at all.............................
the lead the way in showing other game devs how to NOT run your mmo's
Free realms is only booming if you have no involvement with the game other than reading some press releases by SOE. Sure they claim over 5 million players have signed up, but go log into the game and you see a different picture.
There are only 10 servers and they currently cannot get even 1 to break medium population. At best they get 2 medium population servers and 8 low population.
If Warhammer only had 8 dead servers out of 10 and couldn't fill up 1, it would be called an epic failure. Keep in mind free realms is free to play and with only 2 servers being medium population, how much money do you think this turd is making? Even the fans of the game are starting to talk about how boring it is and how empty the servers are.
The sad reality is that soe no longer has an understanding of what makes games fun or what players want. All they care about is how to create products that will sell. They have long since divorced themselves from the idea that a fun game will attract players as it did with everquest, their one true succes that they have failed to replicate for over 10 years.
Everything after everquest has been a failure of one degree or another. All of their efforts with the Platform Publishing service died. Partly because the games sucked, but partly because they screwed up everything from advertising to distribution. All of their mmos have been real lack luster, unfinished garbage that was rushed out to make a quick buck and continually screw over their playerbase. They have the largest collection of mmos in the industry and I bet you CCP has more total subscribers than they do.
Nothing about this company right now says success. From layoffs, lack of performance in all of their mmos, major heads of studios and developers leaving to the sad dissapointment that free realms has turned out to be. That is not success. That is not an idustry leader.
The one thing SOE is desperate to be the leader of is the introduction of RMT into subscription based games.
For an example of what SOE wants to be leader at just read about Smedleys keynote speach of GDC 2009 is going to be about. Really listen to what he wants the message of soe to be. www.gdcaustin.com/conference/keynotes.html
Attendees will learn about the challenges and lessons learned when creating a full-blown MMO for kids together with a ground-breaking new business model; and how developers can re-educate their teams to move from stagnant and dated MMO design toward mass market success. -John Smedley
New Business model? Mass market success? Stagnant dated mmo designs?
For a guy with a stable of failing mmos, those sure are strange words.
SOE is a leader in the MMO industry.
They lead by example. Whatever they do, everyone else knows it is the wrong decision and avoids it in turn.
They are leaders to an extent. Whatever they do, in terms of business model, the rest of the industry will follow suit, or at least prepare to follow suit to compete. It's kind of a shame others see success where SOE finds little, even though they do pretty much the same thing.
SOE has no brand loyalty anymore. Take care of your customers!!! Customers, employees, and shareholders is what their business stands on. Remove one and you fall on your ass every time. SOE screws all 3 at times it seems.
They need to get their loyal fans back, and dump the fanboi snobs they have have representing their game communities now. Those asses cant give their games away for free, let alone sell them to others. (not talking about SWG fans, you guys are actually polite, though some wannabees aren't)
SOE should Take a tip from Turbine. Watch how DDO's transformation 'works" while EQ2's remains an experiment to this day.
PS3 i think is gonna take off, I also think CCP, Turbine, and a few others are gonna have smash hit console MMO's. SOE should be embarrassed if they didn't have a hit on their own console because of their lack of respect for their customers and share holders. Let alone their own employees and their art.
CCP could also change the way MMO's are played connecting console players and pc players the way they are with DUST. SOE could be playing major catch up if that turns out to be "the" way to do it. Sandbox games could be "the" way to make that happen. They could bring in more profit via CCP's vision than ever thought possible. You could have one IP containing multiple games, multiple business models, multiple everything really. There are so many more ways to make money via that route. So why is little ol' CCP leading the way? Whats SOE doing? Following maplestory? Making console MMO's with no point other than to log in and spend money to enhance enjoyment? Adding guilds to their game now deserves a press release? Whatever.
What happened to Smed?
IF DUST turns out to be the shit, shareholders may wanna know why SOE was saying games like eve don't work. In my opinion of the console only people I know, something like DUST is what they've been waiting for. A game that works like an MMO, has ramifications in an MMO they can actually see and has meaning, basically everything that's sweet about MMO's. But without the perceived negatives of MMO's. (needing to be a loser, getting fat, cost of pc and upgrades, ect..) CCP is creating a future for themselves. SOE is still trying to survive. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
I think it would be a shame if SOE got left behind if a PS3 explosion takes place. While other developers hit it big. Shareholders would like to see SOE with a smash hit console MMO for the ps3 too. Rather than seeing them as nothing more than a download manager.
All my obviously uneducated and misinformed opinion that's blinded by my bitterness and hatred. Feel free to correct my spelling for me:)
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
<snip>"Attendees will learn about the challenges and lessons learned when creating a full-blown MMO for kids together with a ground-breaking new business model; and how developers can re-educate their teams to move from stagnant and dated MMO design toward mass market success. -John Smedley"
This reminds me of an interview with Smed where he was going on about the benefits of RMT. He seemed focused on the idea that with RMT people will spend more money than you would expect. It seems like his ground-breaking business model is to try to lure kids into a free game and then hit them up with RMT opportunities. Is it really true that you can be a pet trainer in Free Realms for free, but that an actual pet requires a visit to the RMT shop? I heard a rumour to that effect, but didn't know if even SOE could be that slimy. I hope this information is incorrect, but I just don't know what to expect anymore.
One of the things that got me about Free Realms was the statement in the EULA written specifically to minors. It told them that any use of their parents' credit card for RMT items would be considered "authorized." Why is Smed having his legal team write EULAs for minors regarding the use of their parents' credit cards? Don't you think the EULA should actually address the parents? I certainly do. So does the Cartoon Network's online game btw. Their EULA says this to children, "hey kid, go get your folks." That's paraphrased btw
.
At any rate, my guess is that even children aren't as gullible as Smed seems to think. Either that or parents are keeping their credit cards out of reach. Maybe with RMT, people won't pay Smed more than he expected after all.
I think some people got fleeced with the RMT loot lottery in SWG at first, but once they caught on, they either avoided that pitfall or quit the game entirely. I also know of people that SWG just on principle over that particular ground-breaking business model.
Meanwhile, it seems like Bizzard continues to dominate the market with their "out-dated" subscription model, and ethic of high quality, enjoyable games. Crazy eh