Hands down there shouldn't be any PvP in FFXIV because of balancing and that takes time to balance a class and when it gets balanced for PvP it will hurt the PvE. Only PvP I will like to see if they put it as a sports event like balista or a type of coliseum. Also make gear towards that purpose so they won't have to nerf jobs for PvP. Gear can be gained through PvP the more you win the more points you get and you trade those points to a npc for a certain gear you want. Hardest part would be coming up with gear for each lvl group and class.
I actually think its really really dumb and foolish for SE to consider PvP for the sole reason that it isn't either storyline~based (at least what we know so far) nor, given what we can expect are some similarities to FF11, can it utilize it. Its one thing for WoW to have PvP, it makes sense! Empires that don't like each other, well that obviously provides the base-work for a PvP system. In FF we have the "an unknown danger threatens to disturb the land and all the kingdoms make a truce to confront this new danger". It really sounds like the events of Wings of the Goddess for FF11 players.
There will always be players who want to have a PvP system in any game, whether it makes sense to or not, because there is a reason for them whether its for the benefit of their e~penis or simply talk trash, there's a reason. But before we do the "there should be PvP' banter, should really examine whether the game allows for it and if it can't, attempting to offer it will be either very small and limited (ie Ballista).
I actually think its really really dumb and foolish for SE to consider PvP for the sole reason that it isn't either storyline~based (at least what we know so far) nor, given what we can expect are some similarities to FF11, can it utilize it. Its one thing for WoW to have PvP, it makes sense! Empires that don't like each other, well that obviously provides the base-work for a PvP system. In FF we have the "an unknown danger threatens to disturb the land and all the kingdoms make a truce to confront this new danger". It really sounds like the events of Wings of the Goddess for FF11 players. There will always be players who want to have a PvP system in any game, whether it makes sense to or not, because there is a reason for them whether its for the benefit of their e~penis or simply talk trash, there's a reason. But before we do the "there should be PvP' banter, should really examine whether the game allows for it and if it can't, attempting to offer it will be either very small and limited (ie Ballista).
You hit it pretty much spot on... in both paragraphs.
In FFXI it was about all the people working together. Yes there were the minor rivalries of the nations, things each didn't like about the other, but they were all ultimately fighting together for the same cause... to save Vana'diel and keep her safe. It makes perfect sense not to have PvP in that setting. Ballista and such are in place for players to, in the context of the setting, compete with those from other nations and see who wins. The Conquest system is an on-going, "passive" competition for control over given regions, etc.
In FFXIV, the situation seems it will be the same. Each race will, no doubt, have its own identity and probably have some lore-related quips with the others... But they will be working together again. As was so eloquently stated in an episode of LBR where they're talking about PvP being down-played in XI, "A house divided against itself cannot stand". In other words, when you're facing a greater evil that affects *everyone* regardless of race or national origin, fighting amongst yourselves only makes you weaker and easier for the greater evil to deal with. Thus... PvP, outside of "sports-like" activities, in that kind of setting makes absolutely no sense.
And, finally, I agree with your comments on why some want PvP... Some genuinely do enjoy that kind of gameplay, they enjoy being competitive against other live players. What I don't get is why they insist on having it in a game that isn't suited for it, with all the other options out there. I mean, I look at it from both sides... On one hand, I enjoy a good PvE experience, which XI has provided me and that I believe - or am at least hopeful - XIV will as well. PvE is what I'm playing XI and, eventually XIV for. A solid PvE experience. I don't want it to have PvP because it would ultimately serve as a distraction from the core storyline, etc. with people running around camping common quest areas to gank anyone they see. It happens in every MMO I've seen with PvP included in a PvE setting.
On the other hand, I'm a fan of PvP as well, and I enjoy that competitive atmosphere as well, having to look over my shoulder, etc... but I also realize that if I want to find good PvP, I should look for a game that caters to it, where PvE may be present but isn't nearly as prevalent as it would be in a PvE game. That's why I enjoy Lineage 2. I'd say about 90% of the game's core content in some way is related to PvP, whether directly or indirectly. PvE is there, but it's pretty much just to provide a setting and give players a way to level up so they can partake in PvP.
So... even as a fan of PvP... I just can't relate to wanting PvP in a decidedly PvE game... and, sdeleon, I think you touch on at least one reason why some do... They just want to run around and attack other players, they want to trash talk, they want to flex their "e-peens", and so on...
The irony of it is that many who want PvP for those reasons will only ever go after the PvE'ers. I've seen this time and again in various MMOs, but one in particular I'll use as an example is WoW. How many times do I see people say any combination of "I like the competition of a PvP MMO", "I like the danger of having to look over my shoulder all the time", "PvE AI is too stupid and doesn't pose enough of a challenge like fighting a real player does", "People only want PvE because they suck at PvP and are afraid of getting pwned" etc. etc. I saw that kind of talk time and again in the WoW forums when I played.
And yet, wouldn't you know it? I'd see many of the same names that were doing the most smack-talking on the forums in game, doing what? Nope... they weren't not looking for a "real challenge" by fighting other PvP'ers. They were hanging out in areas like Duskwood, at level 40+, on the Alliance side and gank lower level players. And what were the lower level players doing? You guessed it! PvEing. The very players these clowns say only PvE because they sucked at PvP were their target of choice. And they don't just kill them once an dmove on... Oh no. They flex their e-superiority over a much lower leveled character by corpse camping them. Incidentally... this happens in the Horde areas, too. Neither side has a monopoly on idiots.
And just to complete the portrait of hypocrisy we're painting here... when any players actually looking to PvP them showed up, what would they do? Stand and fight in the "real challenge" they claim they wanted? Nope. Not even close. They'd turn tail and run back to the safety of their own areas like the loud-mouthed wimps they were. Yep... self-declared hardcore PvP'ers running at the sight of actual PvP.
Then they go on the forums and talk smack about how they "pwn the n00bs". Sorry, but anyone whose height of "PvP" is ganking low level characters and running from real PvP when it arrives should just keep their mouths shut... Ironically, they're usually the loudest.
They're not looking for "competition". They're not looking for "danger" or the "rush of having to look over your shoulder". They're looking for easy kills against players they know can't beat them so they can gloat about how uber they are and feel better about themselves. They exist only to get off on making others miserable.
Now... I know not everyone who enjoys PvP is like this, so those of you who don't, please put away the hatchets.. I'm not talking about you. I enjoy PvP, and I'm not like that - I'm actually usually the one going after the griefers/gankers/asshats described above because I can't stand them.
It's bad enough that such nonsense happens in a game where there's a reason for PvP (enemy factions). I would much rather not even present the possibility of that kind of crap happening in a game not designed for it, simply because some people find PvE boring. Then don't play a PvE-centric MMO. Look for a PvP MMO you can enjoy and play that for your PvP fix, just like I and many, many others do.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
the only thing I didn't like about ballista was that sometimes I was on Sandoria's or Bastok's team, and I was a Windy cat. If they coulda made it so that you were always on your nations side - woulda been better. (but people were lucky if the match even happened in the first place because it was not very popular mini-game, and participation was mostly a joke, we'd have to /sh for more people to join most the time) XD
if they have different starting cities in XIV I hope they make it so you can only be on that team in the pvp sport type arena. This will make the rivalries sweeter in the long run (while still being able to essentially be on the same side to save Eorza?) I hated being on the same team with the elvs, I wanted to kill them to show them that skill > race. =P and nobody wanted to be on the sweaty galka's team.
I loved the first version ffXI but I just really wanted more pvp, not even full on pvp maybe like faction pvp, order and chaos type stuff. It just would add the one element to the game that I think would make it more successful and make people want to play it longer.
Wondering what everyone else thinks about the idea?
It’s actually a good point. There have been discussions and debates about PvP and PvE favouritism since the dawn of MMO's.
Many games split it, PvE servers and PvP Servers, and unfortunately I dislike that. It splits players up to much.
I remember an old game called "The Myth of Soma", People who used to watch the GameNetwork TV channel on Sky™ quite a few years ago will know it well. Anyway, back on point, the only servers it split were “US, EU, Korea” and that was it.... PvP or PvE was a players choice.... Killing Players changed your moral, Town guards would attack you, and things would cost more in shops, while “devil” areas were friendlier towards you, and the benefit was you could take items dropped by the person you killed, which was always a random drop of an item the player was carrying(or wearing) and their money (also a random amount). It was successful enough that a lot of players would gang up against those with an evil moral, and people actually took a role in the game. It was more realistic, well... as realistic as a 2d isometric MMO can be....
It will always be an endless debate. There is no perfect PVP/E game, and I wonder if we will ever find one. Let’s just wait to see what FFIX has in store......
I loved the first version ffXI but I just really wanted more pvp, not even full on pvp maybe like faction pvp, order and chaos type stuff. It just would add the one element to the game that I think would make it more successful and make people want to play it longer.
Wondering what everyone else thinks about the idea?
It’s actually a good point. There have been discussions and debates about PvP and PvE favouritism since the dawn of MMO's.
Many games split it, PvE servers and PvP Servers, and unfortunately I dislike that. It splits players up to much.
I remember an old game called "The Myth of Soma", People who used to watch the GameNetwork TV channel on Sky™ quite a few years ago will know it well. Anyway, back on point, the only servers it split were “US, EU, Korea” and that was it.... PvP or PvE was a players choice.... Killing Players changed your moral, Town guards would attack you, and things would cost more in shops, while “devil” areas were friendlier towards you, and the benefit was you could take items dropped by the person you killed, which was always a random drop of an item the player was carrying(or wearing) and their money (also a random amount). It was successful enough that a lot of players would gang up against those with an evil moral, and people actually took a role in the game. It was more realistic, well... as realistic as a 2d isometric MMO can be....
It will always be an endless debate. There is no perfect PVP/E game, and I wonder if we will ever find one. Let’s just wait to see what FFIX has in store......
I think the concept of PvPvE was well thought out and I'm really surprised more Mmo's never took its model after seeing its logic and sense. In EVE you start out in 1 of 4 empires (there are 5 but 1 is not playable and the storyline explains why). As you progress you always have the option of maintaining allegiance, switching allegiance or even becoming a pirate and having no empire allegiance. As for how PvP worked, generally empires were policed but the further you were away from the core of the empire the less safe it was and easier to PvP. At some areas like the borders of an empire most PvE would occur and along trade routes and other borders would PvP occur. It made logic and made sense in my mind. Its like in NYC, downtown Manhattan is going to be generally safer than the Bronx (yea stereotyping but its an example). Additionally killing players would cause you to be dislike by that players alliance/allegiance/etc. So it had a karma effect to it as well making it so that PvP'ing had in fact real consequences and you couldn't be just an ass and kill everyone to be merely an ass.
I don't think FF14 has the chance to implement this given the storyline. It would've possible if it was set before the unknown dangers occurred and the destruction of a place i forgot was introduced later as part of the storyline and an expansion to invite even more interest and shock positively.
Final Fantasy always had the mmo reputation for being a "care-bear" game and I wonder how much of that is because it is at heart a Japanese mmo [and I'm asian so i can say that lol]! Eve probably has the closest thing to a near-perfect pvpve system given the storyline of the game, the player base and dynamics of the game. There are players who I know that after 3 years never have done but want to try it and its possible because unlike WoW, its single server so your not shutout completely. As for WoW, its either you commit to it or not from the onset based on server. Lineage....it was like playing a FPS with a sword lol!
If SE ever commits to PvP in FF14 it'd probably be a revamped version of ballista *shrugs* I don't think PvP would make SE more successful, actually I think they'd generate more player interest if storylines weren't always placed during times of piece. For FF11 players, its like saying lets start the game before the Crystal War and add expansions to reflect the timeline. Now that would've been pretty epic!
Comments
Hands down there shouldn't be any PvP in FFXIV because of balancing and that takes time to balance a class and when it gets balanced for PvP it will hurt the PvE. Only PvP I will like to see if they put it as a sports event like balista or a type of coliseum. Also make gear towards that purpose so they won't have to nerf jobs for PvP. Gear can be gained through PvP the more you win the more points you get and you trade those points to a npc for a certain gear you want. Hardest part would be coming up with gear for each lvl group and class.
I actually think its really really dumb and foolish for SE to consider PvP for the sole reason that it isn't either storyline~based (at least what we know so far) nor, given what we can expect are some similarities to FF11, can it utilize it. Its one thing for WoW to have PvP, it makes sense! Empires that don't like each other, well that obviously provides the base-work for a PvP system. In FF we have the "an unknown danger threatens to disturb the land and all the kingdoms make a truce to confront this new danger". It really sounds like the events of Wings of the Goddess for FF11 players.
There will always be players who want to have a PvP system in any game, whether it makes sense to or not, because there is a reason for them whether its for the benefit of their e~penis or simply talk trash, there's a reason. But before we do the "there should be PvP' banter, should really examine whether the game allows for it and if it can't, attempting to offer it will be either very small and limited (ie Ballista).
You hit it pretty much spot on... in both paragraphs.
In FFXI it was about all the people working together. Yes there were the minor rivalries of the nations, things each didn't like about the other, but they were all ultimately fighting together for the same cause... to save Vana'diel and keep her safe. It makes perfect sense not to have PvP in that setting. Ballista and such are in place for players to, in the context of the setting, compete with those from other nations and see who wins. The Conquest system is an on-going, "passive" competition for control over given regions, etc.
In FFXIV, the situation seems it will be the same. Each race will, no doubt, have its own identity and probably have some lore-related quips with the others... But they will be working together again. As was so eloquently stated in an episode of LBR where they're talking about PvP being down-played in XI, "A house divided against itself cannot stand". In other words, when you're facing a greater evil that affects *everyone* regardless of race or national origin, fighting amongst yourselves only makes you weaker and easier for the greater evil to deal with. Thus... PvP, outside of "sports-like" activities, in that kind of setting makes absolutely no sense.
And, finally, I agree with your comments on why some want PvP... Some genuinely do enjoy that kind of gameplay, they enjoy being competitive against other live players. What I don't get is why they insist on having it in a game that isn't suited for it, with all the other options out there. I mean, I look at it from both sides... On one hand, I enjoy a good PvE experience, which XI has provided me and that I believe - or am at least hopeful - XIV will as well. PvE is what I'm playing XI and, eventually XIV for. A solid PvE experience. I don't want it to have PvP because it would ultimately serve as a distraction from the core storyline, etc. with people running around camping common quest areas to gank anyone they see. It happens in every MMO I've seen with PvP included in a PvE setting.
On the other hand, I'm a fan of PvP as well, and I enjoy that competitive atmosphere as well, having to look over my shoulder, etc... but I also realize that if I want to find good PvP, I should look for a game that caters to it, where PvE may be present but isn't nearly as prevalent as it would be in a PvE game. That's why I enjoy Lineage 2. I'd say about 90% of the game's core content in some way is related to PvP, whether directly or indirectly. PvE is there, but it's pretty much just to provide a setting and give players a way to level up so they can partake in PvP.
So... even as a fan of PvP... I just can't relate to wanting PvP in a decidedly PvE game... and, sdeleon, I think you touch on at least one reason why some do... They just want to run around and attack other players, they want to trash talk, they want to flex their "e-peens", and so on...
The irony of it is that many who want PvP for those reasons will only ever go after the PvE'ers. I've seen this time and again in various MMOs, but one in particular I'll use as an example is WoW. How many times do I see people say any combination of "I like the competition of a PvP MMO", "I like the danger of having to look over my shoulder all the time", "PvE AI is too stupid and doesn't pose enough of a challenge like fighting a real player does", "People only want PvE because they suck at PvP and are afraid of getting pwned" etc. etc. I saw that kind of talk time and again in the WoW forums when I played.
And yet, wouldn't you know it? I'd see many of the same names that were doing the most smack-talking on the forums in game, doing what? Nope... they weren't not looking for a "real challenge" by fighting other PvP'ers. They were hanging out in areas like Duskwood, at level 40+, on the Alliance side and gank lower level players. And what were the lower level players doing? You guessed it! PvEing. The very players these clowns say only PvE because they sucked at PvP were their target of choice. And they don't just kill them once an dmove on... Oh no. They flex their e-superiority over a much lower leveled character by corpse camping them. Incidentally... this happens in the Horde areas, too. Neither side has a monopoly on idiots.
And just to complete the portrait of hypocrisy we're painting here... when any players actually looking to PvP them showed up, what would they do? Stand and fight in the "real challenge" they claim they wanted? Nope. Not even close. They'd turn tail and run back to the safety of their own areas like the loud-mouthed wimps they were. Yep... self-declared hardcore PvP'ers running at the sight of actual PvP.
Then they go on the forums and talk smack about how they "pwn the n00bs". Sorry, but anyone whose height of "PvP" is ganking low level characters and running from real PvP when it arrives should just keep their mouths shut... Ironically, they're usually the loudest.
They're not looking for "competition". They're not looking for "danger" or the "rush of having to look over your shoulder". They're looking for easy kills against players they know can't beat them so they can gloat about how uber they are and feel better about themselves. They exist only to get off on making others miserable.
Now... I know not everyone who enjoys PvP is like this, so those of you who don't, please put away the hatchets.. I'm not talking about you. I enjoy PvP, and I'm not like that - I'm actually usually the one going after the griefers/gankers/asshats described above because I can't stand them.
It's bad enough that such nonsense happens in a game where there's a reason for PvP (enemy factions). I would much rather not even present the possibility of that kind of crap happening in a game not designed for it, simply because some people find PvE boring. Then don't play a PvE-centric MMO. Look for a PvP MMO you can enjoy and play that for your PvP fix, just like I and many, many others do.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
the only thing I didn't like about ballista was that sometimes I was on Sandoria's or Bastok's team, and I was a Windy cat. If they coulda made it so that you were always on your nations side - woulda been better. (but people were lucky if the match even happened in the first place because it was not very popular mini-game, and participation was mostly a joke, we'd have to /sh for more people to join most the time) XD
if they have different starting cities in XIV I hope they make it so you can only be on that team in the pvp sport type arena. This will make the rivalries sweeter in the long run (while still being able to essentially be on the same side to save Eorza?) I hated being on the same team with the elvs, I wanted to kill them to show them that skill > race. =P and nobody wanted to be on the sweaty galka's team.
It’s actually a good point. There have been discussions and debates about PvP and PvE favouritism since the dawn of MMO's.
Many games split it, PvE servers and PvP Servers, and unfortunately I dislike that. It splits players up to much.
I remember an old game called "The Myth of Soma", People who used to watch the GameNetwork TV channel on Sky™ quite a few years ago will know it well. Anyway, back on point, the only servers it split were “US, EU, Korea” and that was it.... PvP or PvE was a players choice.... Killing Players changed your moral, Town guards would attack you, and things would cost more in shops, while “devil” areas were friendlier towards you, and the benefit was you could take items dropped by the person you killed, which was always a random drop of an item the player was carrying(or wearing) and their money (also a random amount). It was successful enough that a lot of players would gang up against those with an evil moral, and people actually took a role in the game. It was more realistic, well... as realistic as a 2d isometric MMO can be....
It will always be an endless debate. There is no perfect PVP/E game, and I wonder if we will ever find one. Let’s just wait to see what FFIX has in store......
It’s actually a good point. There have been discussions and debates about PvP and PvE favouritism since the dawn of MMO's.
Many games split it, PvE servers and PvP Servers, and unfortunately I dislike that. It splits players up to much.
I remember an old game called "The Myth of Soma", People who used to watch the GameNetwork TV channel on Sky™ quite a few years ago will know it well. Anyway, back on point, the only servers it split were “US, EU, Korea” and that was it.... PvP or PvE was a players choice.... Killing Players changed your moral, Town guards would attack you, and things would cost more in shops, while “devil” areas were friendlier towards you, and the benefit was you could take items dropped by the person you killed, which was always a random drop of an item the player was carrying(or wearing) and their money (also a random amount). It was successful enough that a lot of players would gang up against those with an evil moral, and people actually took a role in the game. It was more realistic, well... as realistic as a 2d isometric MMO can be....
It will always be an endless debate. There is no perfect PVP/E game, and I wonder if we will ever find one. Let’s just wait to see what FFIX has in store......
I think the concept of PvPvE was well thought out and I'm really surprised more Mmo's never took its model after seeing its logic and sense. In EVE you start out in 1 of 4 empires (there are 5 but 1 is not playable and the storyline explains why). As you progress you always have the option of maintaining allegiance, switching allegiance or even becoming a pirate and having no empire allegiance. As for how PvP worked, generally empires were policed but the further you were away from the core of the empire the less safe it was and easier to PvP. At some areas like the borders of an empire most PvE would occur and along trade routes and other borders would PvP occur. It made logic and made sense in my mind. Its like in NYC, downtown Manhattan is going to be generally safer than the Bronx (yea stereotyping but its an example). Additionally killing players would cause you to be dislike by that players alliance/allegiance/etc. So it had a karma effect to it as well making it so that PvP'ing had in fact real consequences and you couldn't be just an ass and kill everyone to be merely an ass.
I don't think FF14 has the chance to implement this given the storyline. It would've possible if it was set before the unknown dangers occurred and the destruction of a place i forgot was introduced later as part of the storyline and an expansion to invite even more interest and shock positively.
Final Fantasy always had the mmo reputation for being a "care-bear" game and I wonder how much of that is because it is at heart a Japanese mmo [and I'm asian so i can say that lol]! Eve probably has the closest thing to a near-perfect pvpve system given the storyline of the game, the player base and dynamics of the game. There are players who I know that after 3 years never have done but want to try it and its possible because unlike WoW, its single server so your not shutout completely. As for WoW, its either you commit to it or not from the onset based on server. Lineage....it was like playing a FPS with a sword lol!
If SE ever commits to PvP in FF14 it'd probably be a revamped version of ballista *shrugs* I don't think PvP would make SE more successful, actually I think they'd generate more player interest if storylines weren't always placed during times of piece. For FF11 players, its like saying lets start the game before the Crystal War and add expansions to reflect the timeline. Now that would've been pretty epic!