Videos like this are a good reminder why I dislike the game Rocket Launcher Online FTW. Don't you think everyone feels the same, tossing AoEs like mad? As a person who enjoys melee, it's easy to see why I could not have lots of fun in DFO. More power to those who enjoy this. The only side effect of this video was making me want to play Team Fortress.
As an added bonus, the mounted character falling from the cliff while animating gallop in midair is lovely
EDIT: It's interesting checking player comments about this video on the official forums, where probably the link came from. Lots of pertinent comment there: forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
There are tons of in-game videos with melee, archery and all forms of attacks. You know this. This particular video highlighted a specific strategy used by a small group and was edited to highlight what the movie maker wanted to show.
Do you actually need links to the 1,000 other videos that highlight melee and other tactics, or perhaps I'll just assume if you cared enough, you'd find them yourself.
Thanks -CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
There are tons of in-game videos with melee, archery and all forms of attacks. You know this. This particular video highlighted a specific strategy used by a small group and was edited to highlight what the movie maker wanted to show. Do you actually need links to the 1,000 other videos that highlight melee and other tactics, or perhaps I'll just assume if you cared enough, you'd find them yourself. Thanks -CC
Well, all videos where melee stands out (as in, appears) are about ganking or small scale PVP. But why, thanks, yes, I did search. However, I'm always open to suggestions, and I'll gladly accept a few links for the thousands of videos that focus on melee in large scale battles.
However, the title is "Pack Defense". It's not specific about style X or Y, but almost 99% of the fighting shown is ranged, with special focus to AoEs. Furthermore, why being so defensive? It's a comment, and my personal views should not construe "lies" or an "attack".
One good thing about the new patch is that the player base was given a new oomph to defend the game. That's a good thing, because it was pretty bleak in here.
EDIT: the discussions found here are pretty much what I meant in my post. Check them out, spoken by your fellow players.
Videos like this are a good reminder why I dislike the game Rocket Launcher Online FTW. Don't you think everyone feels the same, tossing AoEs like mad? As a person who enjoys melee, it's easy to see why I could not have lots of fun in DFO. More power to those who enjoy this. The only side effect of this video was making me want to play Team Fortress. As an added bonus, the mounted character falling from the cliff while animating gallop in midair is lovely EDIT: It's interesting checking player comments about this video on the official forums, where probably the link came from. Lots of pertinent comment there: forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
This is more of a balancing issue that will likely be addressed (it sounds like it may even be addressed in the october expansion). I love Team Fortress, but it isn't a persistent worldl. In Darkfall stealth matters, politics matter, organisation, terrain knowledge and individual player skill matters more than any MMORPG I've ever set foot in (a ridiculous amount). Maybe the new patch will make you resub?
Videos like this are a good reminder why I dislike the game Rocket Launcher Online FTW. Don't you think everyone feels the same, tossing AoEs like mad? As a person who enjoys melee, it's easy to see why I could not have lots of fun in DFO. More power to those who enjoy this. The only side effect of this video was making me want to play Team Fortress. As an added bonus, the mounted character falling from the cliff while animating gallop in midair is lovely EDIT: It's interesting checking player comments about this video on the official forums, where probably the link came from. Lots of pertinent comment there: forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
This is more of a balancing issue that will likely be addressed (it sounds like it may even be addressed in the october expansion). I love Team Fortress, but it isn't a persistent worldl. In Darkfall stealth matters, politics matter, organisation, terrain knowledge and individual player skill matters more than any MMORPG I've ever set foot in (a ridiculous amount). Maybe the new patch will make you resub?
If they deal with some crucial issues, such as "melee X magic X ranged" balance, the problem of the skill cap/decay, and some other issues, why not? I plan to see how they'll manage this patch and the resulting bugs, however.
It's balancing how the playerbase will play by making it so that it's easier for every one to get high end magic. Let's say this again.
They are making it so that EVERYONE can EASILY get high end magic. That's not balancing.
That's cheap.
It means that fights are rather one dementional, and that AV is steering the game towards a more ranged based PvP system. DFO is turning more and more into a persistant world Team Fortress game that charges a monthly fee.
I guess that's cool if that's what you're into, but for someone that wants to play an mmoRPG, it's pretty crappy. This isn't real pvp.
It's one group shooting at another.
Frankly.
It's boring.
Is your opinion based on how you interpret what you read, or is it based upon your in-game experience? if it's in game experience, I'd love to meet you in game and see what you're talking about because at range I'm great, but get owned often in melee combat, which is combat I am not able to avoid. I'd like to see how you manage to limit fights to magic only.
Also, can you please define "real PvP"?
Thanks -CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
It's balancing how the playerbase will play by making it so that it's easier for every one to get high end magic. Let's say this again.
They are making it so that EVERYONE can EASILY get high end magic. That's not balancing.
That's cheap.
It means that fights are rather one dementional, and that AV is steering the game towards a more ranged based PvP system. DFO is turning more and more into a persistant world Team Fortress game that charges a monthly fee.
I guess that's cool if that's what you're into, but for someone that wants to play an mmoRPG, it's pretty crappy. This isn't real pvp.
It's one group shooting at another.
Frankly.
It's boring.
Is your opinion based on how you interpret what you read, or is it based upon your in-game experience? if it's in game experience, I'd love to meet you in game and see what you're talking about because at range I'm great, but get owned often in melee combat, which is combat I am not able to avoid. I'd like to see how you do.
Thanks -CC
I played for 3 months china.
Combat and seiging hasn't changed from day one of release to today.
Edit: Honestly, I would still be playing today if the combat wasn't what it was. I'd even be willing to pay for a new client and the monthly sub even though I think the game is a really shallow MMO. I love FPS games.
But between the horrid melee combat, and the lack of any real sence of individuality, I just can't do it.
Well,
that and there's this other game that has so far impressed me immensly with it's melee combat.
PS: I'm the mage type. I like to play magic users.
It's balancing how the playerbase will play by making it so that it's easier for every one to get high end magic. Let's say this again.
They are making it so that EVERYONE can EASILY get high end magic. That's not balancing.
That's cheap.
It means that fights are rather one dementional, and that AV is steering the game towards a more ranged based PvP system. DFO is turning more and more into a persistant world Team Fortress game that charges a monthly fee.
I guess that's cool if that's what you're into, but for someone that wants to play an mmoRPG, it's pretty crappy. This isn't real pvp.
It's one group shooting at another.
Frankly.
It's boring.
I have yet to see anything really balance the game, from the varied aspects of the skill system, and the damage types. But this is what sieges/large scale combat is about, given the current rate of skill gains in reguard to magic. Anyone who doesnt have these skills is at a very large disadvantage in larger battles,and frankly is a weakness that is easy to exploit. I am still working up fire, earth and witchcraft so i cant really contribute that much to a "main" battle line , where aoe spam is the king of damage. If you dont have it, your role is relagated to flanker or support,ie healing. Ill get my magic up high enough soon enough, but its so tedious and damn boring that the only way for me to do it is to macro, especially when you have to cast 500-1000 times for 1 point in a magic school at mid-range/upper mid range.
The fact is that AV is still , 7 months after release, working on basic beta changes with the skill system, mob drops etc etc. They have not even got around to balancing anything at all. Given that, there is no reason that magic shouldnt be open ended for everyone to get, because everyone has to get it at some point to be effective if you want to explore all aspects of the game.
its just that with no balance, magic is very attractive, gives alot of reward,for very little risk, and the only costs are basically the time/resources it takes to grind magic to high levels in multiple schools, which isnt something anyone can lose later on, at least not with how the game currently works.
All that video shows, is how you basically just spam aoe splash damage spells, in order to take opponents out of the fight, and thats why everyone is bitching about high end magic. It all boils down to how much damage you can do to the opposing team,vs how much they can do to you.
It's balancing how the playerbase will play by making it so that it's easier for every one to get high end magic. Let's say this again.
They are making it so that EVERYONE can EASILY get high end magic. That's not balancing.
That's cheap.
It means that fights are rather one dementional, and that AV is steering the game towards a more ranged based PvP system. DFO is turning more and more into a persistant world Team Fortress game that charges a monthly fee.
I guess that's cool if that's what you're into, but for someone that wants to play an mmoRPG, it's pretty crappy. This isn't real pvp.
It's one group shooting at another.
Frankly.
It's boring.
I have yet to see anything really balance the game, from the varied aspects of the skill system, and the damage types. But this is what sieges/large scale combat is about, given the current rate of skill gains in reguard to magic. Anyone who doesnt have these skills is at a very large disadvantage in larger battles,and frankly is a weakness that is easy to exploit. I am still working up fire, earth and witchcraft so i cant really contribute that much to a "main" battle line , where aoe spam is the king of damage. If you dont have it, your role is relagated to flanker or support,ie healing. Ill get my magic up high enough soon enough, but its so tedious and damn boring that the only way for me to do it is to macro, especially when you have to cast 500-1000 times for 1 point in a magic school at mid-range/upper mid range.
The fact is that AV is still , 7 months after release, working on basic beta changes with the skill system, mob drops etc etc. They have not even got around to balancing anything at all. Given that, there is no reason that magic shouldnt be open ended for everyone to get, because everyone has to get it at some point to be effective if you want to explore all aspects of the game.
its just that with no balance, magic is very attractive, gives alot of reward,for very little risk, and the only costs are basically the time/resources it takes to grind magic to high levels in multiple schools, which isnt something anyone can lose later on, at least not with how the game currently works.
All that video shows, is how you basically just spam aoe splash damage spells, in order to take opponents out of the fight, and thats why everyone is bitching about high end magic. It all boils down to how much damage you can do to the opposing team,vs how much they can do to you.
Just let me say that since I have 100 earth, 100 fire, 50 arcane, 75 spellchanting, almost 75 witchcraft, I bring tons of regs to sieges. 250 of each reg is enough for me to cycle through every nuke during the standoffs. That makes my battlebag worth over 6k which is what I'm risking. I'm not saying that it makes magic less beastly though.
It's balancing how the playerbase will play by making it so that it's easier for every one to get high end magic. Let's say this again.
They are making it so that EVERYONE can EASILY get high end magic. That's not balancing.
That's cheap.
It means that fights are rather one dementional, and that AV is steering the game towards a more ranged based PvP system. DFO is turning more and more into a persistant world Team Fortress game that charges a monthly fee.
I guess that's cool if that's what you're into, but for someone that wants to play an mmoRPG, it's pretty crappy. This isn't real pvp.
It's one group shooting at another.
Frankly.
It's boring.
Is your opinion based on how you interpret what you read, or is it based upon your in-game experience? if it's in game experience, I'd love to meet you in game and see what you're talking about because at range I'm great, but get owned often in melee combat, which is combat I am not able to avoid. I'd like to see how you do.
Thanks -CC
I played for 3 months china.
Combat and seiging hasn't changed from day one of release to today.
Edit: Honestly, I would still be playing today if the combat wasn't what it was. I'd even be willing to pay for a new client and the monthly sub even though I think the game is a really shallow MMO. I love FPS games.
But between the horrid melee combat, and the lack of any real sence of individuality, I just can't do it.
Well,
that and there's this other game that has so far impressed me immensly with it's melee combat.
PS: I'm the mage type. I like to play magic users.
How about I try to record myself in a duel that I always have with my clanmates. I use magic, melee, and archery. I don't have full version of fraps though so I can only record 30 secs... hmm
It's balancing how the playerbase will play by making it so that it's easier for every one to get high end magic. Let's say this again.
They are making it so that EVERYONE can EASILY get high end magic. That's not balancing.
That's cheap.
It means that fights are rather one dementional, and that AV is steering the game towards a more ranged based PvP system. DFO is turning more and more into a persistant world Team Fortress game that charges a monthly fee.
I guess that's cool if that's what you're into, but for someone that wants to play an mmoRPG, it's pretty crappy. This isn't real pvp.
It's one group shooting at another.
Frankly.
It's boring.
Is your opinion based on how you interpret what you read, or is it based upon your in-game experience? if it's in game experience, I'd love to meet you in game and see what you're talking about because at range I'm great, but get owned often in melee combat, which is combat I am not able to avoid. I'd like to see how you do.
Thanks -CC
I played for 3 months china.
Combat and seiging hasn't changed from day one of release to today.
Edit: Honestly, I would still be playing today if the combat wasn't what it was. I'd even be willing to pay for a new client and the monthly sub even though I think the game is a really shallow MMO. I love FPS games.
But between the horrid melee combat, and the lack of any real sence of individuality, I just can't do it.
Well,
that and there's this other game that has so far impressed me immensly with it's melee combat.
PS: I'm the mage type. I like to play magic users.
But you are wrong. Combat has changed due to changes in effects of various armor and crafted items vs dropped, and more enchanted items entering the game. I've played since beta and if you are trying to draw a line from your experience three months after beta to today, it is an inaccurate extrapolation.
ps: If you love magic, boy are you missing a great game.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Just let me say that since I have 100 earth, 100 fire, 50 arcane, 75 spellchanting, almost 75 witchcraft, I bring tons of regs to sieges. 250 of each reg is enough for me to cycle through every nuke during the standoffs. That makes my battlebag worth over 6k which is what I'm risking. I'm not saying that it makes magic less beastly though.
But your risk is the same as everyone elses in a siege. At least if they are willing to play. Most archers/melee bring at least scale/plate/fullplate, hundreds of arrows, x50 reagents, transmuted weapons etc etc. The difference is those archtypes lack the ability to do multiple target high DPS/Damage, lack the ability to defend against such damage, and lack the ability to negate the damage to close.
Battle lines and flow are solely dicated by the use of high level magic. it renders every other skill/aspect of the game ineffective in large scale pvp. The only way for players to counter if they dont have that magic, is to bring enough force to overwhelm the opponents who do have the skills. Depending on the ablility to organize and execute , thats not even certain.
In other games, while magic might be as powerful, there are direct counters to it, to allow different playstyles to emerge, and provide balance. In DFO magic is the massed artilliary, and every opponent is someone who is caught in the open. Don't get me wrong, i dont have a problem with magic being powerful,and i dont have a problem with it doing area effect damage. I just believe for the long term health of the game,there has to either be some way to negate those abilities, or that magic is going to have to be nerfed in its damage form, so that both archery and melee do better damage, and allow alternative playstyles to emerge.
if might be different, if there was more constructable terrain, or protections defenders and attackers could build, mabye thats the way to go. As it stands though, magic is absurdly powerful, for minimal risk for the magic user,unless he is facing opposing essentially identical players with the same skills. Making a game one-dimensional is the easiest way to lose your playerbase.
Just let me say that since I have 100 earth, 100 fire, 50 arcane, 75 spellchanting, almost 75 witchcraft, I bring tons of regs to sieges. 250 of each reg is enough for me to cycle through every nuke during the standoffs. That makes my battlebag worth over 6k which is what I'm risking. I'm not saying that it makes magic less beastly though.
But your risk is the same as everyone elses in a siege. At least if they are willing to play. Most archers/melee bring at least scale/plate/fullplate, hundreds of arrows, x50 reagents, transmuted weapons etc etc. The difference is those archtypes lack the ability to do multiple target high DPS/Damage, lack the ability to defend against such damage, and lack the ability to negate the damage to close.
Battle lines and flow are solely dicated by the use of high level magic. it renders every other skill/aspect of the game ineffective in large scale pvp. The only way for players to counter if they dont have that magic, is to bring enough force to overwhelm the opponents who do have the skills. Depending on the ablility to organize and execute , thats not even certain.
In other games, while magic might be as powerful, there are direct counters to it, to allow different playstyles to emerge, and provide balance. In DFO magic is the massed artilliary, and every opponent is someone who is caught in the open. Don't get me wrong, i dont have a problem with magic being powerful,and i dont have a problem with it doing area effect damage. I just believe for the long term health of the game,there has to either be some way to negate those abilities, or that magic is going to have to be nerfed in its damage form, so that both archery and melee do better damage, and allow alternative playstyles to emerge.
if might be different, if there was more constructable terrain, or protections defenders and attackers could build, mabye thats the way to go. As it stands though, magic is absurdly powerful, for minimal risk for the magic user,unless he is facing opposing essentially identical players with the same skills. Making a game one-dimensional is the easiest way to lose your playerbase.
I agree, the mage is not risking more if the other players are properly geared as they should be, or don't really have a right to complain.
aedin - The picture you are painting is not fair. Sure, in a siege "if" the targets are clustered together on a tower, AOE will own; but they don't have to be clustered together. On an open field, same thing, but melee and archers can use terrain and coordinate multiple flanks and approaches to the mages. In a dungeon, that super duper mage is toast because in close quarters an equally matched melee player will kill the mage before he can say Kal Por Ylem.
I'm not suggesting there isn't room for balance, but fortunately AV is smarter than Mythic and many other companies. Instead of reacting to complaints quickly, it is allowing players to learn the game and watch how and if it can adapt and create defenisve and counter offiensive actions. Also, please note that in a well designed team, there will be mages on both sides, and each magery school obtains protection buffs from the various magic attacks. These are not typically used as often as they should be. It would be a huge mistake to not factor in existing mechanics designed to balance combat, that simply are not being used, or used well.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Just let me say that since I have 100 earth, 100 fire, 50 arcane, 75 spellchanting, almost 75 witchcraft, I bring tons of regs to sieges. 250 of each reg is enough for me to cycle through every nuke during the standoffs. That makes my battlebag worth over 6k which is what I'm risking. I'm not saying that it makes magic less beastly though.
But your risk is the same as everyone elses in a siege. At least if they are willing to play. Most archers/melee bring at least scale/plate/fullplate, hundreds of arrows, x50 reagents, transmuted weapons etc etc. The difference is those archtypes lack the ability to do multiple target high DPS/Damage, lack the ability to defend against such damage, and lack the ability to negate the damage to close.
Battle lines and flow are solely dicated by the use of high level magic. it renders every other skill/aspect of the game ineffective in large scale pvp. The only way for players to counter if they dont have that magic, is to bring enough force to overwhelm the opponents who do have the skills. Depending on the ablility to organize and execute , thats not even certain.
In other games, while magic might be as powerful, there are direct counters to it, to allow different playstyles to emerge, and provide balance. In DFO magic is the massed artilliary, and every opponent is someone who is caught in the open. Don't get me wrong, i dont have a problem with magic being powerful,and i dont have a problem with it doing area effect damage. I just believe for the long term health of the game,there has to either be some way to negate those abilities, or that magic is going to have to be nerfed in its damage form, so that both archery and melee do better damage, and allow alternative playstyles to emerge.
if might be different, if there was more constructable terrain, or protections defenders and attackers could build, mabye thats the way to go. As it stands though, magic is absurdly powerful, for minimal risk for the magic user,unless he is facing opposing essentially identical players with the same skills. Making a game one-dimensional is the easiest way to lose your playerbase.
I agree, the mage is not risking more if the other players are properly geared as they should be, or don't really have a right to complain.
aedin - The picture you are painting is not fair. Sure, in a siege "if" the targets are clustered together on a tower, AOE will own; but they don't have to be clustered together. On an open field, same thing, but melee and archers can use terrain and coordinate multiple flanks and approaches to the mages. In a dungeon, that super duper mage is toast because in close quarters an equally matched melee player will kill the mage before he can say Kal Por Ylem.
I'm not suggesting there isn't room for balance, but fortunately AV is smarter than Mythic and many other companies. Instead of reacting to complaints quickly, it is allowing players to learn the game and watch how and if it can adapt and create defenisve and counter offiensive actions. Also, please note that in a well designed team, there will be mages on both sides, and each magery school obtains protection buffs from the various magic attacks. These are not typically used as often as they should be. It would be a huge mistake to not factor in existing mechanics designed to balance combat, that simply are not being used, or used well.
-CC
Im not sure how you say the picture im not painting is fair,when its what happens or has happend is almost all the large scale <25 vs 25> or greater player battles i have been in, which almost always involve a city or hamlet, or some definable objective. I dont personally consider a 50 player battle very large,but it is usually a sizable force, when based on the populations on this game. It almost always invoves an objective, not random open field PVP.
Based on my experience, both on EU and NA, its simply being blind to refuse to admit there are issues with Magic, and the lack of any kind of tactical triangle, or tactical counter to magic. You argue terrain, which frankly is easy to get around, and with aoe magic a near miss is good enough, you really dont have to be that good at hitting your target. With the damage cap, impliminted from the hotfix,its actually a bit better, because players have more time to react, but its still impossible to charge a large force who has the capability to lay down multiple aoes, and shatter them, without having that exact same ability.
If you look at the very first volcano in the video, its a perfect example of using AOE spells to get around terrain, where the aoe is placed so that it ignores and negates any potential defensive bonuses the tower can give. You can also look at the other fire spells placed to attack through openings.
The only way to coordinate multiple flanks,is if you can anchor your oponents in place long enough for them to be used, which is typically going to require magic as your main battle line, or a significant numbers advantage. Deviding forces against developed players is a very easy way to lose mutliple waves of attacks, especially if they have the ability to decimate numbers quickly, like with ohh AOE magic.
There is more skill involved in small scale combat, and melee and archery can really shine here. however its still far to easy to run around and land attacks with fireball. There is a reason you see lots of players running around in bone armor these days,compared to anything else.
As far as protections go, magic actually gives better protections against physical damage & arrows then it does against other magic spells. Things like fire shield are pretty much of a joke at this point, when the spells hit for 65, and your protection reduces that to a whopping 63.4. When faced with players who cast multiple aoes, with zero cooldown, and are able to pump out constantly high DPS and burst damage numbers, protections become meaningless.
You state that AV is smart, to wait till players develop defenses, personally from what i have seen the majority of players are just hitting the cancel button, i dont think its smart to lose consumers because you refuse to act on balancing the game in a timely fashion. I dont really consider 3-4 months down the road acceptable, especialy not when players are leaving and citing the reason for leaving is they have little to no interest in playing a game that revolves around one dimensional combat.
There are tons of in-game videos with melee, archery and all forms of attacks. You know this. This particular video highlighted a specific strategy used by a small group and was edited to highlight what the movie maker wanted to show. Do you actually need links to the 1,000 other videos that highlight melee and other tactics, or perhaps I'll just assume if you cared enough, you'd find them yourself. Thanks -CC
Are you playing a other game or what?
Or you kid yourself and say Darkfall is not going towards a one class game with only mages?
I think your a ffraid they goning to nerf magic so all your macro maybe for nothing.
We need diversity melee/archery/magic not a serevr full of mages.
When i roam the world i almost only see bonearmor these days lol that say something there is serieus something going the wrong direction in Darkfall.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
For the game's flaws, what it does well you can't get in any other MMORPG.
Dawntide will be out soon..It looks pretty good, maybe just as good as Darkfall..They are doing beta and be going into phase 2 soon..It has allot to offer..It might be the Big Cheese for PVP..
aedn and Evasia summed up pretty nice my exact feelings about what's wrong in DFO's PVP atm. Let's hope Aventurine reaches a better balance between the 3 specialties, to make the game more diverse and interesting.
aedn and Evasia summed up pretty nice my exact feelings about what's wrong in DFO's PVP atm. Let's hope Aventurine reaches a better balance between the 3 specialties, to make the game more diverse and interesting.
There may be diversity issues with the PvP (the extent to which we can dispute; I think they just need to balance magic by making melee and archery more attractive) but when it comes to PvP-based MMO's with absolute freedom, we really can't be too fussy. I've had more fun in the past couple of months in Darkfall than I've had since I began in beta (Joined November, 2008). The game keeps me and many others occupied - it's *very* interesting when theres a long-running dispute between clans or alliances that is settled through careful planning, tactics and timing. It's a hell of alot of fun! If you're sitting on the fence, it'd be sad for you to miss out.
aedn and Evasia summed up pretty nice my exact feelings about what's wrong in DFO's PVP atm. Let's hope Aventurine reaches a better balance between the 3 specialties, to make the game more diverse and interesting.
There may be diversity issues with the PvP (the extent to which we can dispute; I think they just need to balance magic by making melee and archery more attractive) but when it comes to PvP-based MMO's with absolute freedom, we really can't be too fussy. I've had more fun in the past couple of months in Darkfall than I've had since I began in beta (Joined November, 2008). The game keeps me and many others occupied - it's *very* interesting when theres a long-running dispute between clans or alliances that is settled through careful planning, tactics and timing. It's a hell of alot of fun! If you're sitting on the fence, it'd be sad for you to miss out.
Well, I believe that being fussy is fundamental to increase the quality of the products we consume
I'd like to comment about the "total freedom". Total freedom without diversity and individuality (or at least a modicum of it) gets old fast. All I see in DFO forums is people converging to Magic to join the "Rocket Launcher Deathmatch" which group PVP usually devolves into. What's the point of melee and (to a lesser extent) archery when there modalities are underperforming? The game actually penalizes you with melee.
I hope this gets fixed. So far, however, nothing seems to indicate that (same thing with the no-limit skill, which is an inane choice to build a PVP game). I'll only give DFO another shot when I see clear indication that Aventurine is not funneling everyone into the same "AoE launcher" build. And when there's a trial.
aedn and Evasia summed up pretty nice my exact feelings about what's wrong in DFO's PVP atm. Let's hope Aventurine reaches a better balance between the 3 specialties, to make the game more diverse and interesting.
There may be diversity issues with the PvP (the extent to which we can dispute; I think they just need to balance magic by making melee and archery more attractive) but when it comes to PvP-based MMO's with absolute freedom, we really can't be too fussy. I've had more fun in the past couple of months in Darkfall than I've had since I began in beta (Joined November, 2008). The game keeps me and many others occupied - it's *very* interesting when theres a long-running dispute between clans or alliances that is settled through careful planning, tactics and timing. It's a hell of alot of fun! If you're sitting on the fence, it'd be sad for you to miss out.
Well, I believe that being fussy is fundamental to increase the quality of the products we consume
Indeed... It's really kinda sad how many times I've seen that kind of sentiment expressed about DF in a variety of ways... The whole "we shouldn't be too fussy" or any other way the same sentiment has been expressed. When you have to lower your expectations in order to find a game "adequate", that's not saying much for the game, nor for those behind it.
But then again, we see examples all the time of what happens when someone dares criticize anything about the game or how it's handled... they're deemed "haters" and "trolls".
I guess the only way to be a "true fan" is to "not be too fussy" and to "not hold them to such high standards" - even when those standards were derived from their own hype... etc. etc.
Pretty cynical way to think, if you ask me.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
Ren makes great videos of in game fights and speaks better to the heart of the game, than all the posts on this board combined.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Videos like this are a good reminder why I dislike the game
Rocket Launcher Online FTW. Don't you think everyone feels the same, tossing AoEs like mad? As a person who enjoys melee, it's easy to see why I could not have lots of fun in DFO. More power to those who enjoy this. The only side effect of this video was making me want to play Team Fortress.
As an added bonus, the mounted character falling from the cliff while animating gallop in midair is lovely
EDIT: It's interesting checking player comments about this video on the official forums, where probably the link came from. Lots of pertinent comment there: forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
There are tons of in-game videos with melee, archery and all forms of attacks. You know this. This particular video highlighted a specific strategy used by a small group and was edited to highlight what the movie maker wanted to show.
Do you actually need links to the 1,000 other videos that highlight melee and other tactics, or perhaps I'll just assume if you cared enough, you'd find them yourself.
Thanks -CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Well, all videos where melee stands out (as in, appears) are about ganking or small scale PVP. But why, thanks, yes, I did search. However, I'm always open to suggestions, and I'll gladly accept a few links for the thousands of videos that focus on melee in large scale battles.
However, the title is "Pack Defense". It's not specific about style X or Y, but almost 99% of the fighting shown is ranged, with special focus to AoEs. Furthermore, why being so defensive? It's a comment, and my personal views should not construe "lies" or an "attack".
One good thing about the new patch is that the player base was given a new oomph to defend the game. That's a good thing, because it was pretty bleak in here.
EDIT: the discussions found here are pretty much what I meant in my post. Check them out, spoken by your fellow players.
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
This is more of a balancing issue that will likely be addressed (it sounds like it may even be addressed in the october expansion). I love Team Fortress, but it isn't a persistent worldl. In Darkfall stealth matters, politics matter, organisation, terrain knowledge and individual player skill matters more than any MMORPG I've ever set foot in (a ridiculous amount). Maybe the new patch will make you resub?
This is more of a balancing issue that will likely be addressed (it sounds like it may even be addressed in the october expansion). I love Team Fortress, but it isn't a persistent worldl. In Darkfall stealth matters, politics matter, organisation, terrain knowledge and individual player skill matters more than any MMORPG I've ever set foot in (a ridiculous amount). Maybe the new patch will make you resub?
If they deal with some crucial issues, such as "melee X magic X ranged" balance, the problem of the skill cap/decay, and some other issues, why not? I plan to see how they'll manage this patch and the resulting bugs, however.
Better safe than sorry
The oct. patch isn't balancing the game.
It's balancing how the playerbase will play by making it so that it's easier for every one to get high end magic.
Let's say this again.
They are making it so that EVERYONE can EASILY get high end magic.
That's not balancing.
That's cheap.
It means that fights are rather one dementional, and that AV is steering the game towards a more ranged based PvP system.
DFO is turning more and more into a persistant world Team Fortress game that charges a monthly fee.
I guess that's cool if that's what you're into, but for someone that wants to play an mmoRPG, it's pretty crappy.
This isn't real pvp.
It's one group shooting at another.
Frankly.
It's boring.
Is your opinion based on how you interpret what you read, or is it based upon your in-game experience? if it's in game experience, I'd love to meet you in game and see what you're talking about because at range I'm great, but get owned often in melee combat, which is combat I am not able to avoid. I'd like to see how you manage to limit fights to magic only.
Also, can you please define "real PvP"?
Thanks -CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
Is your opinion based on how you interpret what you read, or is it based upon your in-game experience? if it's in game experience, I'd love to meet you in game and see what you're talking about because at range I'm great, but get owned often in melee combat, which is combat I am not able to avoid. I'd like to see how you do.
Thanks -CC
I played for 3 months china.
Combat and seiging hasn't changed from day one of release to today.
Edit: Honestly, I would still be playing today if the combat wasn't what it was. I'd even be willing to pay for a new client and the monthly sub even though I think the game is a really shallow MMO. I love FPS games.
But between the horrid melee combat, and the lack of any real sence of individuality, I just can't do it.
Well,
that and there's this other game that has so far impressed me immensly with it's melee combat.
PS: I'm the mage type. I like to play magic users.
I have yet to see anything really balance the game, from the varied aspects of the skill system, and the damage types. But this is what sieges/large scale combat is about, given the current rate of skill gains in reguard to magic. Anyone who doesnt have these skills is at a very large disadvantage in larger battles,and frankly is a weakness that is easy to exploit. I am still working up fire, earth and witchcraft so i cant really contribute that much to a "main" battle line , where aoe spam is the king of damage. If you dont have it, your role is relagated to flanker or support,ie healing. Ill get my magic up high enough soon enough, but its so tedious and damn boring that the only way for me to do it is to macro, especially when you have to cast 500-1000 times for 1 point in a magic school at mid-range/upper mid range.
The fact is that AV is still , 7 months after release, working on basic beta changes with the skill system, mob drops etc etc. They have not even got around to balancing anything at all. Given that, there is no reason that magic shouldnt be open ended for everyone to get, because everyone has to get it at some point to be effective if you want to explore all aspects of the game.
its just that with no balance, magic is very attractive, gives alot of reward,for very little risk, and the only costs are basically the time/resources it takes to grind magic to high levels in multiple schools, which isnt something anyone can lose later on, at least not with how the game currently works.
All that video shows, is how you basically just spam aoe splash damage spells, in order to take opponents out of the fight, and thats why everyone is bitching about high end magic. It all boils down to how much damage you can do to the opposing team,vs how much they can do to you.
I have yet to see anything really balance the game, from the varied aspects of the skill system, and the damage types. But this is what sieges/large scale combat is about, given the current rate of skill gains in reguard to magic. Anyone who doesnt have these skills is at a very large disadvantage in larger battles,and frankly is a weakness that is easy to exploit. I am still working up fire, earth and witchcraft so i cant really contribute that much to a "main" battle line , where aoe spam is the king of damage. If you dont have it, your role is relagated to flanker or support,ie healing. Ill get my magic up high enough soon enough, but its so tedious and damn boring that the only way for me to do it is to macro, especially when you have to cast 500-1000 times for 1 point in a magic school at mid-range/upper mid range.
The fact is that AV is still , 7 months after release, working on basic beta changes with the skill system, mob drops etc etc. They have not even got around to balancing anything at all. Given that, there is no reason that magic shouldnt be open ended for everyone to get, because everyone has to get it at some point to be effective if you want to explore all aspects of the game.
its just that with no balance, magic is very attractive, gives alot of reward,for very little risk, and the only costs are basically the time/resources it takes to grind magic to high levels in multiple schools, which isnt something anyone can lose later on, at least not with how the game currently works.
All that video shows, is how you basically just spam aoe splash damage spells, in order to take opponents out of the fight, and thats why everyone is bitching about high end magic. It all boils down to how much damage you can do to the opposing team,vs how much they can do to you.
Just let me say that since I have 100 earth, 100 fire, 50 arcane, 75 spellchanting, almost 75 witchcraft, I bring tons of regs to sieges. 250 of each reg is enough for me to cycle through every nuke during the standoffs. That makes my battlebag worth over 6k which is what I'm risking. I'm not saying that it makes magic less beastly though.
Is your opinion based on how you interpret what you read, or is it based upon your in-game experience? if it's in game experience, I'd love to meet you in game and see what you're talking about because at range I'm great, but get owned often in melee combat, which is combat I am not able to avoid. I'd like to see how you do.
Thanks -CC
I played for 3 months china.
Combat and seiging hasn't changed from day one of release to today.
Edit: Honestly, I would still be playing today if the combat wasn't what it was. I'd even be willing to pay for a new client and the monthly sub even though I think the game is a really shallow MMO. I love FPS games.
But between the horrid melee combat, and the lack of any real sence of individuality, I just can't do it.
Well,
that and there's this other game that has so far impressed me immensly with it's melee combat.
PS: I'm the mage type. I like to play magic users.
How about I try to record myself in a duel that I always have with my clanmates. I use magic, melee, and archery. I don't have full version of fraps though so I can only record 30 secs... hmm
Sad fanatics trolling this forum.
Report this post to.
The melee combat is still shit. The new patch in Oct. doesn't change the mechanics behind it.
Is your opinion based on how you interpret what you read, or is it based upon your in-game experience? if it's in game experience, I'd love to meet you in game and see what you're talking about because at range I'm great, but get owned often in melee combat, which is combat I am not able to avoid. I'd like to see how you do.
Thanks -CC
I played for 3 months china.
Combat and seiging hasn't changed from day one of release to today.
Edit: Honestly, I would still be playing today if the combat wasn't what it was. I'd even be willing to pay for a new client and the monthly sub even though I think the game is a really shallow MMO. I love FPS games.
But between the horrid melee combat, and the lack of any real sence of individuality, I just can't do it.
Well,
that and there's this other game that has so far impressed me immensly with it's melee combat.
PS: I'm the mage type. I like to play magic users.
But you are wrong. Combat has changed due to changes in effects of various armor and crafted items vs dropped, and more enchanted items entering the game. I've played since beta and if you are trying to draw a line from your experience three months after beta to today, it is an inaccurate extrapolation.
ps: If you love magic, boy are you missing a great game.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
But your risk is the same as everyone elses in a siege. At least if they are willing to play. Most archers/melee bring at least scale/plate/fullplate, hundreds of arrows, x50 reagents, transmuted weapons etc etc. The difference is those archtypes lack the ability to do multiple target high DPS/Damage, lack the ability to defend against such damage, and lack the ability to negate the damage to close.
Battle lines and flow are solely dicated by the use of high level magic. it renders every other skill/aspect of the game ineffective in large scale pvp. The only way for players to counter if they dont have that magic, is to bring enough force to overwhelm the opponents who do have the skills. Depending on the ablility to organize and execute , thats not even certain.
In other games, while magic might be as powerful, there are direct counters to it, to allow different playstyles to emerge, and provide balance. In DFO magic is the massed artilliary, and every opponent is someone who is caught in the open. Don't get me wrong, i dont have a problem with magic being powerful,and i dont have a problem with it doing area effect damage. I just believe for the long term health of the game,there has to either be some way to negate those abilities, or that magic is going to have to be nerfed in its damage form, so that both archery and melee do better damage, and allow alternative playstyles to emerge.
if might be different, if there was more constructable terrain, or protections defenders and attackers could build, mabye thats the way to go. As it stands though, magic is absurdly powerful, for minimal risk for the magic user,unless he is facing opposing essentially identical players with the same skills. Making a game one-dimensional is the easiest way to lose your playerbase.
But your risk is the same as everyone elses in a siege. At least if they are willing to play. Most archers/melee bring at least scale/plate/fullplate, hundreds of arrows, x50 reagents, transmuted weapons etc etc. The difference is those archtypes lack the ability to do multiple target high DPS/Damage, lack the ability to defend against such damage, and lack the ability to negate the damage to close.
Battle lines and flow are solely dicated by the use of high level magic. it renders every other skill/aspect of the game ineffective in large scale pvp. The only way for players to counter if they dont have that magic, is to bring enough force to overwhelm the opponents who do have the skills. Depending on the ablility to organize and execute , thats not even certain.
In other games, while magic might be as powerful, there are direct counters to it, to allow different playstyles to emerge, and provide balance. In DFO magic is the massed artilliary, and every opponent is someone who is caught in the open. Don't get me wrong, i dont have a problem with magic being powerful,and i dont have a problem with it doing area effect damage. I just believe for the long term health of the game,there has to either be some way to negate those abilities, or that magic is going to have to be nerfed in its damage form, so that both archery and melee do better damage, and allow alternative playstyles to emerge.
if might be different, if there was more constructable terrain, or protections defenders and attackers could build, mabye thats the way to go. As it stands though, magic is absurdly powerful, for minimal risk for the magic user,unless he is facing opposing essentially identical players with the same skills. Making a game one-dimensional is the easiest way to lose your playerbase.
I agree, the mage is not risking more if the other players are properly geared as they should be, or don't really have a right to complain.
aedin - The picture you are painting is not fair. Sure, in a siege "if" the targets are clustered together on a tower, AOE will own; but they don't have to be clustered together. On an open field, same thing, but melee and archers can use terrain and coordinate multiple flanks and approaches to the mages. In a dungeon, that super duper mage is toast because in close quarters an equally matched melee player will kill the mage before he can say Kal Por Ylem.
I'm not suggesting there isn't room for balance, but fortunately AV is smarter than Mythic and many other companies. Instead of reacting to complaints quickly, it is allowing players to learn the game and watch how and if it can adapt and create defenisve and counter offiensive actions. Also, please note that in a well designed team, there will be mages on both sides, and each magery school obtains protection buffs from the various magic attacks. These are not typically used as often as they should be. It would be a huge mistake to not factor in existing mechanics designed to balance combat, that simply are not being used, or used well.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
But your risk is the same as everyone elses in a siege. At least if they are willing to play. Most archers/melee bring at least scale/plate/fullplate, hundreds of arrows, x50 reagents, transmuted weapons etc etc. The difference is those archtypes lack the ability to do multiple target high DPS/Damage, lack the ability to defend against such damage, and lack the ability to negate the damage to close.
Battle lines and flow are solely dicated by the use of high level magic. it renders every other skill/aspect of the game ineffective in large scale pvp. The only way for players to counter if they dont have that magic, is to bring enough force to overwhelm the opponents who do have the skills. Depending on the ablility to organize and execute , thats not even certain.
In other games, while magic might be as powerful, there are direct counters to it, to allow different playstyles to emerge, and provide balance. In DFO magic is the massed artilliary, and every opponent is someone who is caught in the open. Don't get me wrong, i dont have a problem with magic being powerful,and i dont have a problem with it doing area effect damage. I just believe for the long term health of the game,there has to either be some way to negate those abilities, or that magic is going to have to be nerfed in its damage form, so that both archery and melee do better damage, and allow alternative playstyles to emerge.
if might be different, if there was more constructable terrain, or protections defenders and attackers could build, mabye thats the way to go. As it stands though, magic is absurdly powerful, for minimal risk for the magic user,unless he is facing opposing essentially identical players with the same skills. Making a game one-dimensional is the easiest way to lose your playerbase.
I agree, the mage is not risking more if the other players are properly geared as they should be, or don't really have a right to complain.
aedin - The picture you are painting is not fair. Sure, in a siege "if" the targets are clustered together on a tower, AOE will own; but they don't have to be clustered together. On an open field, same thing, but melee and archers can use terrain and coordinate multiple flanks and approaches to the mages. In a dungeon, that super duper mage is toast because in close quarters an equally matched melee player will kill the mage before he can say Kal Por Ylem.
I'm not suggesting there isn't room for balance, but fortunately AV is smarter than Mythic and many other companies. Instead of reacting to complaints quickly, it is allowing players to learn the game and watch how and if it can adapt and create defenisve and counter offiensive actions. Also, please note that in a well designed team, there will be mages on both sides, and each magery school obtains protection buffs from the various magic attacks. These are not typically used as often as they should be. It would be a huge mistake to not factor in existing mechanics designed to balance combat, that simply are not being used, or used well.
-CC
Im not sure how you say the picture im not painting is fair,when its what happens or has happend is almost all the large scale <25 vs 25> or greater player battles i have been in, which almost always involve a city or hamlet, or some definable objective. I dont personally consider a 50 player battle very large,but it is usually a sizable force, when based on the populations on this game. It almost always invoves an objective, not random open field PVP.
Based on my experience, both on EU and NA, its simply being blind to refuse to admit there are issues with Magic, and the lack of any kind of tactical triangle, or tactical counter to magic. You argue terrain, which frankly is easy to get around, and with aoe magic a near miss is good enough, you really dont have to be that good at hitting your target. With the damage cap, impliminted from the hotfix,its actually a bit better, because players have more time to react, but its still impossible to charge a large force who has the capability to lay down multiple aoes, and shatter them, without having that exact same ability.
If you look at the very first volcano in the video, its a perfect example of using AOE spells to get around terrain, where the aoe is placed so that it ignores and negates any potential defensive bonuses the tower can give. You can also look at the other fire spells placed to attack through openings.
The only way to coordinate multiple flanks,is if you can anchor your oponents in place long enough for them to be used, which is typically going to require magic as your main battle line, or a significant numbers advantage. Deviding forces against developed players is a very easy way to lose mutliple waves of attacks, especially if they have the ability to decimate numbers quickly, like with ohh AOE magic.
There is more skill involved in small scale combat, and melee and archery can really shine here. however its still far to easy to run around and land attacks with fireball. There is a reason you see lots of players running around in bone armor these days,compared to anything else.
As far as protections go, magic actually gives better protections against physical damage & arrows then it does against other magic spells. Things like fire shield are pretty much of a joke at this point, when the spells hit for 65, and your protection reduces that to a whopping 63.4. When faced with players who cast multiple aoes, with zero cooldown, and are able to pump out constantly high DPS and burst damage numbers, protections become meaningless.
You state that AV is smart, to wait till players develop defenses, personally from what i have seen the majority of players are just hitting the cancel button, i dont think its smart to lose consumers because you refuse to act on balancing the game in a timely fashion. I dont really consider 3-4 months down the road acceptable, especialy not when players are leaving and citing the reason for leaving is they have little to no interest in playing a game that revolves around one dimensional combat.
Are you playing a other game or what?
Or you kid yourself and say Darkfall is not going towards a one class game with only mages?
I think your a ffraid they goning to nerf magic so all your macro maybe for nothing.
We need diversity melee/archery/magic not a serevr full of mages.
When i roam the world i almost only see bonearmor these days lol that say something there is serieus something going the wrong direction in Darkfall.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Dawntide will be out soon..It looks pretty good, maybe just as good as Darkfall..They are doing beta and be going into phase 2 soon..It has allot to offer..It might be the Big Cheese for PVP..
Check it out here www.dawntide.net/
< Mod Edit >
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
aedn and Evasia summed up pretty nice my exact feelings about what's wrong in DFO's PVP atm. Let's hope Aventurine reaches a better balance between the 3 specialties, to make the game more diverse and interesting.
There may be diversity issues with the PvP (the extent to which we can dispute; I think they just need to balance magic by making melee and archery more attractive) but when it comes to PvP-based MMO's with absolute freedom, we really can't be too fussy. I've had more fun in the past couple of months in Darkfall than I've had since I began in beta (Joined November, 2008). The game keeps me and many others occupied - it's *very* interesting when theres a long-running dispute between clans or alliances that is settled through careful planning, tactics and timing. It's a hell of alot of fun! If you're sitting on the fence, it'd be sad for you to miss out.
There may be diversity issues with the PvP (the extent to which we can dispute; I think they just need to balance magic by making melee and archery more attractive) but when it comes to PvP-based MMO's with absolute freedom, we really can't be too fussy. I've had more fun in the past couple of months in Darkfall than I've had since I began in beta (Joined November, 2008). The game keeps me and many others occupied - it's *very* interesting when theres a long-running dispute between clans or alliances that is settled through careful planning, tactics and timing. It's a hell of alot of fun! If you're sitting on the fence, it'd be sad for you to miss out.
Well, I believe that being fussy is fundamental to increase the quality of the products we consume
I'd like to comment about the "total freedom". Total freedom without diversity and individuality (or at least a modicum of it) gets old fast. All I see in DFO forums is people converging to Magic to join the "Rocket Launcher Deathmatch" which group PVP usually devolves into. What's the point of melee and (to a lesser extent) archery when there modalities are underperforming? The game actually penalizes you with melee.
I hope this gets fixed. So far, however, nothing seems to indicate that (same thing with the no-limit skill, which is an inane choice to build a PVP game). I'll only give DFO another shot when I see clear indication that Aventurine is not funneling everyone into the same "AoE launcher" build. And when there's a trial.
There may be diversity issues with the PvP (the extent to which we can dispute; I think they just need to balance magic by making melee and archery more attractive) but when it comes to PvP-based MMO's with absolute freedom, we really can't be too fussy. I've had more fun in the past couple of months in Darkfall than I've had since I began in beta (Joined November, 2008). The game keeps me and many others occupied - it's *very* interesting when theres a long-running dispute between clans or alliances that is settled through careful planning, tactics and timing. It's a hell of alot of fun! If you're sitting on the fence, it'd be sad for you to miss out.
Well, I believe that being fussy is fundamental to increase the quality of the products we consume
Indeed... It's really kinda sad how many times I've seen that kind of sentiment expressed about DF in a variety of ways... The whole "we shouldn't be too fussy" or any other way the same sentiment has been expressed. When you have to lower your expectations in order to find a game "adequate", that's not saying much for the game, nor for those behind it.
But then again, we see examples all the time of what happens when someone dares criticize anything about the game or how it's handled... they're deemed "haters" and "trolls".
I guess the only way to be a "true fan" is to "not be too fussy" and to "not hold them to such high standards" - even when those standards were derived from their own hype... etc. etc.
Pretty cynical way to think, if you ask me.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
So I remember in beta I used to make a macro that spammed mana missile all day long. Can that still be done?