In my opinion, CO is a great MOG (think Diablo with battle.net, but on steroids) you log in, you fight a lot and thats about it. But based on what I prefer I wouldn't really say it even qualifies as an MMORPG. Consequently, I don't see it as worth a sub. Great MOG though, and I'd be willing to pay a one time price of 5 dollars just to have the char creator as a stand alone app. Which incidently if they released as a free stand alone app, could generate a LOT of subs, I bet.
It must be the in thing these days to claim that anything that doesn't have seemless zones, classes, servers, quests, and raids isn't an MMOG.
[Dundee is threatened by a mugger with a switchblade]
Sue Charlton: Mick, give him your wallet.
Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: What for?
Sue Charlton: He's got a knife.
Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: [chuckling] That's not a knife.
Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: [Dundee draws a large Bowie knife]
Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: *That's* a knife.
[Dundee slashes the teen mugger's jacket. He and his friends run away]
I don't understand how anyone could think CO can have seamless zones. How are you supped to represent a plane trip to Canada? That is like a 4 hour flight in real life.
Simple answer is that anyone who thinks EQ2 is an MMORPG but that CO is not has simply confirmed that they are not competent to give an opinion on the matter. The size of the zones themselves and the overflow of population are almost exactly the same, in fact CO is less linear than many EQ2 zones and has more people per server. It is in fact superior to EQ2 in MMO part of MMORPG. Not saying its a better game or better grouping mechanics. But it has more people per server jammed into things of comparable size with comparable population.
And yes not all opinions are valid. There is such a term as "its a matter of opinion", but vast ignorance does in fact invalidate some opinions. Our Sun is not blue and any opinion whose main point hinges on the fact that they like how the blueness of the sun makes it cool or enjoyable or whatever is simply not valid unless that person is color blind (although I don't think there is a type of color blindness that could cause that outside of actual brain damage or drugs).
One of the funny things about the shard complaints is it comes from people who demand that MMORPG must = Massive yet they also hate it when servers get so massive that the "community" suffers since everyone is a face in the crowd.
In point of fact these people want an MMMO, a Mediumly Massive Multiplayer Online game. Its is all rather silly, people can't get past their arbitrary formulae and try to destroy anything that doesn't fit because that is apparently the only way to make arbitrary formulae consistent, just massage the facts and your predictions are always right and you can feel safe.
Well I know you're not talking about me since I didn't say anything about seamless zones. I'll tell you who's not competent to speak on a matter is someone who imagines what the other person is talking about then argues against their own imagination.
You didn't say anything about WHY you think CO isn't a MMORPG. You just kinda threw it out there and we assumed the worst. Its not necessarily directed at you but rather at the general sentiment of players who say it isn't a MMORPG. Rather than letting this devolve into a flame war full of personal insults, why don't you tell us why CO isn't a MMORPG?
Just going by comments and reviews, the game looks like it will suit me fine. The only thing that has me slightly spooked is reports of not much grouping going on, but I'm sure that will be brought up to speed eventually.
CO is at a great foundational level. It hasn't committed too heavily to any single element of the game and I'm almost positive that the first major content patch is going to be geared at some sort of end game stuff. It offers a lot for a fresh MMO.
Originally posted by HorkathaneRight on! Get in, Game on, Have Fun, Game off, switch characters around, no lame griefing or stupid group issues fighting over drops...pfft drops? lol so old. UO style is dead.
Wait ... you do realize that while CO isn't exactly a loot based game, loot in CO is extremely important right? On top of that they have mentioned plans for 'end game' raid type content too.
I ask because I still haven't figured out if you're completely serious or not.
(1) Single Server I agree, single server is a great idea, glad to see they implemented this, however they did it with instancing, which is cheating somewhat.
(3) Everyone is a Hero
Champions allows everyone to have elements of all of the classes and makes the generalist good enough to get through the content provided. Perhaps, if everyone is a hero, then no one really is. Sounds to me as if everyone actually is "average", with no specialization to really set you apart. How interesting would the Justice League really have been if everyone had Superman's powers? Whoops, wrong game.
(4) Better pacing
From the get go, you can play non stop. Resting between mobs: gone. Waiting for long recharges: gone. Waiting for respawns: kind of there... however, they have removed much of the down time and let you steamroller mobs one after another in rapid succession. It's a very liberating feeling. It's true that most games get you to that point, but CO does it from the beginning and it's very nice indeed. Probably the worst aspect of this game then, totally destroys any real chance for socialization, especially in a PUG situation, and it seems players don't even understand what they've lost. (or that such elements served a purpose in earlier games, not just to frustrate players) (5) Early Travel Powers
There is nothing more annoying that spending half of your precious gaming time traveling from one spot to another. Eve could be the worst infraction on this, although most game have it to some degree or another. CO seemed just large enough (although that could be a problem later) to feel open, but with your travel power, small enough to get around quickly. Events are close together and travel times have mostly been eliminated. You don't really understand EVE at all if you think the travel times are there to frustrate you. They are part of the strategic element of the games design, and there's all sorts of skills to reduce them, and tactics to employ to your advantage and outwit your enemy. I will agree, waiting till "level 40" to get a mount was a bit silly in WOW, so the earlier players get them in a game like this the better. (Even CoX made you wait too long)
There are certainly problems wth the title, like any new MMO. However, the beta was pretty smooth and more important, fun. I think this title will be around for years to come as they have removed many of the things that make MMOs a pain to play. Is it as deep as some games, no I don't think so. However, that's ok, if you are looking for something fun and different, this is a title that you should really consider. Many of those "pains" you speak of are what gave early MMO's their character, and its a shame today's more casual gamer doesn't understand why they were placed there or how they made the gameplay so much fun.
Not really meant to be a criticism of CO, I've not played it, nor am I like to as the "features" that seem to please you obviously are a deterrent to me.
That's OK, games are made to please all sorts of tastes, and they certainly don't have to cater just to mine.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Perhaps, if everyone is a hero, then no one really is. Sounds to me as if everyone actually is "average", with no specialization to really set you apart. How interesting would the Justice League really have been if everyone had Superman's powers? Whoops, wrong game.
Here I have to disagree completely. In many prior games, 40% of the population was forced to play sub-par classes that made people around them better. For this priviledge, they lost damage and usually survivability. Additionally, they made the other classes reliant on those same support classes. So now you have artifical teams that are required to tackle any content. That's great when you can get the ideal team; however, when you can't it's just frustrating.
I found plenty of specialization you could do in CO. However, none of that specialization took away from your basic combat ability. Additionally, it was easy enough to splash support in a main line killer. That's a refreshing change in my book. If I never hear team looking for healer again, it will be too soon. Especially when that team didn't need on in the first place.
Probably the worst aspect of this game then, totally destroys any real chance for socialization, especially in a PUG situation, and it seems players don't even understand what they've lost. (or that such elements served a purpose in earlier games, not just to frustrate players)
Perhaps, though I really don't like forced teams or socialization. With that said, I am an active RPer in any game I have played. I'll happily sit for hours discussing an imaginary characters life problems. However, I don't need a developer to give me down time so I can talk to friends. That's just bad game design. If you wouldn't put up with it in a single player game, you shouldn't in a multi player game. People will socialize when they want too, but get readily bored when forced too. Those same time constraints are still staring at you when you play at 4:00am because you are awake and your entire guild went to bed six hours ago. Take them out and let people take their down time when they want it.
You don't really understand EVE at all if you think the travel times are there to frustrate you. They are part of the strategic element of the games design, and there's all sorts of skills to reduce them, and tactics to employ to your advantage and outwit your enemy. I will agree, waiting till "level 40" to get a mount was a bit silly in WOW, so the earlier players get them in a game like this the better. (Even CoX made you wait too long)
I get Eve, it's not for me, but I do get it. However, again, I don't want to play a game where I que a comand and go watch a movie. If I wanted to watch the movie I wouldn't have started the game in the first place. More than a few minutes of travel at most really kills a game for me; strategic element or not. To me, Eve borders more on work than a game, but you said it very well at the end of your comments "differnt strokes" and all that. I can recognize the creativity that Eve shows even while disliking many of the elements in the game. I'd also give their development team props for the continual and creative improvement they have added over the years. They gave their fans more of what they wanted and like Cryptic has, found a new/unused niche and filled it very well.
Many of those "pains" you speak of are what gave early MMO's their character, and its a shame today's more casual gamer doesn't understand why they were placed there or how they made the gameplay so much fun.
Perhaps. Or perhaps that we are finally starting to realize that we don't need to put up with many of the artificial barriers that original developers placed in their games to stretch out their limited content. When I log into a MMO I want to do what I want to do. That might sound selfish, but its my entertainment time... with 2 kids and a full time job I'm pretty particular in what I do.
I don't know how often you might do this, but load up an old favorite of yours. I use DOSBOX to play some of my favorites. Like StarFlight. It was the first game I played on an old IBM XT running at 4.77mhz. Yet I logged tons of hours exploring the galaxy and having a ball. Recently, I tried it again. It was really painful. I've now come to expect certain levels of comfort that are in modern games. It's not that I can't get out my graph paper, or take copious notes... it's just that I don't want to any more. If there is a title that makes my entertainment time "more fun" I'll do that and nostalgia be damned.
For me, that's the nice spot that CO is hitting. They removed many of the things that were oringinally placed in MMOs to be time sinks. They removed many things that just weren't fun. I think they sadly get little credit for Zone design. Take their original title, you'd get a mission that lead you from one zone to the other to the other. Few people run those any more since they are such a pain and give relatively low reward-effort.
However, I also get that some people won't like the title. There's enough in there to turn people off. I did this thread purely to put why I think this game will be here for a long time. Despite some of the doom predictions that are going around. Cryptic has done a lot right with this title. They are filling a niche that not too many games have hit yet. I think the approach they took will serve them well over the next few years and assuming they remain dedicated to the title, should have a nice customer base that follows them.
However, I think there's also a market out there for MMOs that are more like simulators - e.g. a fantasy sim, an s-f sim, a superhero sim - where the gaming aspect recedes somewhat, and the immersion aspect comes to the fore (of course neither can be wholly absent). There are some people who like to take time to get from A to B and stop and smell the roses; there are people who want every step of their crafting, or their fighting, or their diplomacy, or whatever, to be represented somehow in a more realistic way. For such people, it's more about immersion than achievement. Of course there has to be some space and time compression, and there have to be some game-like elements, but for a sim, you don't need to foreshorten everything to the extent that's necessary to maintain the momentum of a more gamey MMO - e.g. one-click crafting, taking a fraction of a second.
I think these "MMO sims" will come in the future, as a niche market. You can see that's what many of the more curmudgeonly sorts here on MMORPG.com and other similar websites really want. There's an older demographic who I think would definitely be attracted by that. But I think they will only come as game engines become more generic. There are already a couple of commercial MMO game engines on the market, but probably still too expensive and specialised for a "kitchen sink" approach, which is what I think we will see a return to within the next 5 or 6 years. What would be really satisfactory to many people would be a few niche games made by capable enthusiasts, with moderately large worlds (mediumly massive), say 10,000 players, with this kind of sim approach, and perhaps paid GM staff who would actually GM somewhat (in the tabletop sense). You could even charge quite a high subscription rate, to keep out the riff-raff, and I think a substantial number of people would be willing to pay for such games.
Think Neverwinter Nights PWs, but on a more massive and commercial level.
I don't think there will ever be a perfect game as everyone's taste and expectations vary too much. What maybe a perfect game for 1 person maybe bad for others.
So far I haven't seen any good reason for not liking it (Other then the lack of PvP). Most of the reasons are just opinion and not anything wrong with the game itself.
Comments
It must be the in thing these days to claim that anything that doesn't have seemless zones, classes, servers, quests, and raids isn't an MMOG.
[Dundee is threatened by a mugger with a switchblade]
Sue Charlton: Mick, give him your wallet.
Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: What for?
Sue Charlton: He's got a knife.
Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: [chuckling] That's not a knife.
Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: [Dundee draws a large Bowie knife]
Michael J. "Crocodile" Dundee: *That's* a knife.
[Dundee slashes the teen mugger's jacket. He and his friends run away]
I don't understand how anyone could think CO can have seamless zones. How are you supped to represent a plane trip to Canada? That is like a 4 hour flight in real life.
Simple answer is that anyone who thinks EQ2 is an MMORPG but that CO is not has simply confirmed that they are not competent to give an opinion on the matter. The size of the zones themselves and the overflow of population are almost exactly the same, in fact CO is less linear than many EQ2 zones and has more people per server. It is in fact superior to EQ2 in MMO part of MMORPG. Not saying its a better game or better grouping mechanics. But it has more people per server jammed into things of comparable size with comparable population.
And yes not all opinions are valid. There is such a term as "its a matter of opinion", but vast ignorance does in fact invalidate some opinions. Our Sun is not blue and any opinion whose main point hinges on the fact that they like how the blueness of the sun makes it cool or enjoyable or whatever is simply not valid unless that person is color blind (although I don't think there is a type of color blindness that could cause that outside of actual brain damage or drugs).
One of the funny things about the shard complaints is it comes from people who demand that MMORPG must = Massive yet they also hate it when servers get so massive that the "community" suffers since everyone is a face in the crowd.
In point of fact these people want an MMMO, a Mediumly Massive Multiplayer Online game. Its is all rather silly, people can't get past their arbitrary formulae and try to destroy anything that doesn't fit because that is apparently the only way to make arbitrary formulae consistent, just massage the facts and your predictions are always right and you can feel safe.
Well I know you're not talking about me since I didn't say anything about seamless zones. I'll tell you who's not competent to speak on a matter is someone who imagines what the other person is talking about then argues against their own imagination.
You didn't say anything about WHY you think CO isn't a MMORPG. You just kinda threw it out there and we assumed the worst. Its not necessarily directed at you but rather at the general sentiment of players who say it isn't a MMORPG. Rather than letting this devolve into a flame war full of personal insults, why don't you tell us why CO isn't a MMORPG?
Nice OP.
Just going by comments and reviews, the game looks like it will suit me fine. The only thing that has me slightly spooked is reports of not much grouping going on, but I'm sure that will be brought up to speed eventually.
CO is at a great foundational level. It hasn't committed too heavily to any single element of the game and I'm almost positive that the first major content patch is going to be geared at some sort of end game stuff. It offers a lot for a fresh MMO.
Wait ... you do realize that while CO isn't exactly a loot based game, loot in CO is extremely important right? On top of that they have mentioned plans for 'end game' raid type content too.
I ask because I still haven't figured out if you're completely serious or not.
ive been playing open beta and experienced no lag at all in the game. i dont know why people are experiencing this maybe im just lucky.
Not really meant to be a criticism of CO, I've not played it, nor am I like to as the "features" that seem to please you obviously are a deterrent to me.
That's OK, games are made to please all sorts of tastes, and they certainly don't have to cater just to mine.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Perhaps, if everyone is a hero, then no one really is. Sounds to me as if everyone actually is "average", with no specialization to really set you apart. How interesting would the Justice League really have been if everyone had Superman's powers? Whoops, wrong game.
Here I have to disagree completely. In many prior games, 40% of the population was forced to play sub-par classes that made people around them better. For this priviledge, they lost damage and usually survivability. Additionally, they made the other classes reliant on those same support classes. So now you have artifical teams that are required to tackle any content. That's great when you can get the ideal team; however, when you can't it's just frustrating.
I found plenty of specialization you could do in CO. However, none of that specialization took away from your basic combat ability. Additionally, it was easy enough to splash support in a main line killer. That's a refreshing change in my book. If I never hear team looking for healer again, it will be too soon. Especially when that team didn't need on in the first place.
Probably the worst aspect of this game then, totally destroys any real chance for socialization, especially in a PUG situation, and it seems players don't even understand what they've lost. (or that such elements served a purpose in earlier games, not just to frustrate players)
Perhaps, though I really don't like forced teams or socialization. With that said, I am an active RPer in any game I have played. I'll happily sit for hours discussing an imaginary characters life problems. However, I don't need a developer to give me down time so I can talk to friends. That's just bad game design. If you wouldn't put up with it in a single player game, you shouldn't in a multi player game. People will socialize when they want too, but get readily bored when forced too. Those same time constraints are still staring at you when you play at 4:00am because you are awake and your entire guild went to bed six hours ago. Take them out and let people take their down time when they want it.
You don't really understand EVE at all if you think the travel times are there to frustrate you. They are part of the strategic element of the games design, and there's all sorts of skills to reduce them, and tactics to employ to your advantage and outwit your enemy. I will agree, waiting till "level 40" to get a mount was a bit silly in WOW, so the earlier players get them in a game like this the better. (Even CoX made you wait too long)
I get Eve, it's not for me, but I do get it. However, again, I don't want to play a game where I que a comand and go watch a movie. If I wanted to watch the movie I wouldn't have started the game in the first place. More than a few minutes of travel at most really kills a game for me; strategic element or not. To me, Eve borders more on work than a game, but you said it very well at the end of your comments "differnt strokes" and all that. I can recognize the creativity that Eve shows even while disliking many of the elements in the game. I'd also give their development team props for the continual and creative improvement they have added over the years. They gave their fans more of what they wanted and like Cryptic has, found a new/unused niche and filled it very well.
Many of those "pains" you speak of are what gave early MMO's their character, and its a shame today's more casual gamer doesn't understand why they were placed there or how they made the gameplay so much fun.
Perhaps. Or perhaps that we are finally starting to realize that we don't need to put up with many of the artificial barriers that original developers placed in their games to stretch out their limited content. When I log into a MMO I want to do what I want to do. That might sound selfish, but its my entertainment time... with 2 kids and a full time job I'm pretty particular in what I do.
I don't know how often you might do this, but load up an old favorite of yours. I use DOSBOX to play some of my favorites. Like StarFlight. It was the first game I played on an old IBM XT running at 4.77mhz. Yet I logged tons of hours exploring the galaxy and having a ball. Recently, I tried it again. It was really painful. I've now come to expect certain levels of comfort that are in modern games. It's not that I can't get out my graph paper, or take copious notes... it's just that I don't want to any more. If there is a title that makes my entertainment time "more fun" I'll do that and nostalgia be damned.
For me, that's the nice spot that CO is hitting. They removed many of the things that were oringinally placed in MMOs to be time sinks. They removed many things that just weren't fun. I think they sadly get little credit for Zone design. Take their original title, you'd get a mission that lead you from one zone to the other to the other. Few people run those any more since they are such a pain and give relatively low reward-effort.
However, I also get that some people won't like the title. There's enough in there to turn people off. I did this thread purely to put why I think this game will be here for a long time. Despite some of the doom predictions that are going around. Cryptic has done a lot right with this title. They are filling a niche that not too many games have hit yet. I think the approach they took will serve them well over the next few years and assuming they remain dedicated to the title, should have a nice customer base that follows them.
good review, true and to the point
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
I agree with most of what you are saying.
However, I think there's also a market out there for MMOs that are more like simulators - e.g. a fantasy sim, an s-f sim, a superhero sim - where the gaming aspect recedes somewhat, and the immersion aspect comes to the fore (of course neither can be wholly absent). There are some people who like to take time to get from A to B and stop and smell the roses; there are people who want every step of their crafting, or their fighting, or their diplomacy, or whatever, to be represented somehow in a more realistic way. For such people, it's more about immersion than achievement. Of course there has to be some space and time compression, and there have to be some game-like elements, but for a sim, you don't need to foreshorten everything to the extent that's necessary to maintain the momentum of a more gamey MMO - e.g. one-click crafting, taking a fraction of a second.
I think these "MMO sims" will come in the future, as a niche market. You can see that's what many of the more curmudgeonly sorts here on MMORPG.com and other similar websites really want. There's an older demographic who I think would definitely be attracted by that. But I think they will only come as game engines become more generic. There are already a couple of commercial MMO game engines on the market, but probably still too expensive and specialised for a "kitchen sink" approach, which is what I think we will see a return to within the next 5 or 6 years. What would be really satisfactory to many people would be a few niche games made by capable enthusiasts, with moderately large worlds (mediumly massive), say 10,000 players, with this kind of sim approach, and perhaps paid GM staff who would actually GM somewhat (in the tabletop sense). You could even charge quite a high subscription rate, to keep out the riff-raff, and I think a substantial number of people would be willing to pay for such games.
Think Neverwinter Nights PWs, but on a more massive and commercial level.
I don't think there will ever be a perfect game as everyone's taste and expectations vary too much. What maybe a perfect game for 1 person maybe bad for others.
So far I haven't seen any good reason for not liking it (Other then the lack of PvP). Most of the reasons are just opinion and not anything wrong with the game itself.