The big 'it' for me is going to be whether or not they manage to balance the lightsaber classes with the non light saber classes. If they repeat the abortion of SWG and have an alpha class then the game will sputter and disappoint even if the initial glitz is exciting. I trust Bioware to make an quality game but if 'non Jedi' = less than Jedi the game will not work, especially given the story/linear nature of the game, you cannot have a vibrant and dynamic world with only a couple classes and most certainly cannot do as much with one class standing head and shoulders above the rest, or even just a bit better than the rest.
Originally posted by AgtSmith The big 'it' for me is going to be whether or not they manage to balance the lightsaber classes with the non light saber classes. If they repeat the abortion of SWG and have an alpha class then the game will sputter and disappoint even if the initial glitz is exciting. I trust Bioware to make an quality game but if 'non Jedi' = less than Jedi the game will not work, especially given the story/linear nature of the game, you cannot have a vibrant and dynamic world with only a couple classes and most certainly cannot do as much with one class standing head and shoulders above the rest, or even just a bit better than the rest.
This is a problem that Bioware is going to run into, because based on the mythos of Star Wars the force users definitely have an advantage over others. If they make Jedi and Sith less capable than the other classes, which will be what happens if they try and make them melee class specialists, then they are going to lose a lot of players that wanted to play the game primarily to be a jedi/sith.
It's going to be interesting to see how they work it out.
The big 'it' for me is going to be whether or not they manage to balance the lightsaber classes with the non light saber classes. If they repeat the abortion of SWG and have an alpha class then the game will sputter and disappoint even if the initial glitz is exciting. I trust Bioware to make an quality game but if 'non Jedi' = less than Jedi the game will not work, especially given the story/linear nature of the game, you cannot have a vibrant and dynamic world with only a couple classes and most certainly cannot do as much with one class standing head and shoulders above the rest, or even just a bit better than the rest.
This is a problem that Bioware is going to run into, because based on the mythos of Star Wars the force users definitely have an advantage over others. If they make Jedi and Sith less capable than the other classes, which will be what happens if they try and make them melee class specialists, then they are going to lose a lot of players that wanted to play the game primarily to be a jedi/sith.
It's going to be interesting to see how they work it out.
It is actually easy I think, and it was easy when SWG fouled it up. Playing Obi Wan or the other Masters and even Jedi knights is not feasible in terms of balance. You have to have the start out as a padawan type and work up. So in much of the game it is not Smuggler or Bounty Hunter verse Jedi Knight or Master but verse a training Jedi. Maybe at max level you can justify them reaching Jedi Knight level though I would say that should be some kind of capstone that takes a grind similar to what most end game gear grind is like, the trials anyone? We know from cannon and the films that a top BH, and despite what the movies show in canon the clone troopers where very competent and tough, can mix it up with a near Jedi Knight so it makes story sense. If we look to the Old Republic RPGs there is reason to think this might be what they have in mind. As I recall, it has been a while though, you got a good ways in to the game before you started using a lightsaber and a good bit further before you started doing the Obi-Wan/Vader stuff. So we shall see.
Another way to do it is make Jedi tank or healer/buffer or CC class (utility class in other words that is not so much DPS more a front line juggernaut) but I don't think they will go that route. The pets/companions will likely play in to this as well - we have not heard much about their role but they could serve to even things up a bit so that even in a 1 player on 1 player power comparison the Jedi types with relatively weak companions are countered by other classes with strong companions balancing things out.
However they handle it one thing is for certain, an MMO of all or mostly Jedi will fail as would an MMO of any one class. They have to find a way for all classes to compete, be relevant, and do so without just supporting the Jedi classes.
The big 'it' for me is going to be whether or not they manage to balance the lightsaber classes with the non light saber classes. If they repeat the abortion of SWG and have an alpha class then the game will sputter and disappoint even if the initial glitz is exciting. I trust Bioware to make an quality game but if 'non Jedi' = less than Jedi the game will not work, especially given the story/linear nature of the game, you cannot have a vibrant and dynamic world with only a couple classes and most certainly cannot do as much with one class standing head and shoulders above the rest, or even just a bit better than the rest.
This is a problem that Bioware is going to run into, because based on the mythos of Star Wars the force users definitely have an advantage over others. If they make Jedi and Sith less capable than the other classes, which will be what happens if they try and make them melee class specialists, then they are going to lose a lot of players that wanted to play the game primarily to be a jedi/sith.
It's going to be interesting to see how they work it out.
Like most people, I'm not a huge fan of the newer movies compared to the older ones. But I gotta admit I loved the part in Episode 2 where Jango Fett kicks Obi-Wan's booty. I only bring it up to show that "Star Wars Lore" has already shown that a Bounty Hunter can defeat a Jedi Knight in battle.
General Grievous also kicked Obi Wan's butt even though Obi Wan got him in the end with a blaster. And Boba Fett was mostly killed by accident, though in the non movie lore he didn't actually die at the pit on Tatooine from what I understand. Most of the Jedi as superhero stuff is from Jedi verse droid (or more generally, henchman) stuff. So there is plenty of reason to have Jedi be strong but not be alpha class superior to everything else.
Are we forgetting how Jango Fett KILLED a JEDI MASTER who SAT ON THE COUNCIL?
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coleman_Trebor
Not to mention that regular Troopers KILLED THE ENTIRE JEDI ORDER, Jango Fett fought Obi-Wan to a DRAW on Kamino, and in the EU; Boba Fett/General Grievous both killed many Jedi without use of the Force.
I still don't know why people bring up Jango Fett into this. Maybe I watched another Star Wars but in the movie I saw Jango got taken out like a chump. Mace didn't even break a sweat decaping that mofo.
Gotta say, if he was an elite Bounty Hunter than I'm not all that impressed.
First, Yoda was, at that time, a Grand Master and Mace was not far off that and post Episode 6 Luke became a Grand Master after reconstituting the Master's Council. And consider Darth Maul verse Darth Vader - both equivalent 'rank' but obviously not equivalent in terms of power. Qui-Gon gets killed by Darth Maul even though he has the help of then padawan Obi Wan but Obi Wan the padawan manages to take out Darth Maul. Point being that this is not rock-paper-scissors stuff in the movies of the lore. There are a few exceptional individuals that the movies mainly focus on but on balance the movies and mostly the lore show the other players to stack up much as you would expect. IN the game, I should hope Jedi/Sith are of the padawan to knight variant which would have the rivaled appropriately by exceptional 'iconic' types of the other classes, smuggler and bounty hunter and so on.
Beyond that, there is a lot more to Star Wars lore than just the movies, and you have to take the movies with a grain of salt in terms of story compression and the normal movie convention of inflating things for effect. Personally, I think the first three movies show Jedi VS non Jedi and masters and all that most accurately as you see look and Vader fighting but not doing super jumps and all sorts of other superhero stuff. Most of their battle is in fact one of wills and character. Episodes 1-3 are good movies and good Star Wars but a little flashy for the times in terms of the way Jedi are these superhuman magic men. Consider the Jango VS Obi Wan fight as reasonable in terms of the overall lore, as is the Mace verse Emperor I think. But just before Mace and the Emperor square off the Emperor slices through 4 Masters like they are not even there if you go just on what the movie shows, I think that is a good example of the time compression and such you get in movies as if they made this epic confrontation of Jedi Masters and Sith Lord 'realistic' in terms of lore it would take a whole movie just by itself.
But all that aside, if you want a Star Wars MMO and you want Jedi in it then you had better want Jedi = Other classes and not have Jedi be an alpha class like in SWG or the game will tank, maybe slowly but tank it will. You just cannot have an alpha class in an MMO without severe restrictions that will never fly. MMOs need class balance to work, period. But, that being the case on the game side the movies and lore, though more consistent in lore, make a good case for balance. Heck, think about it logically, if two Jedi could fly in to a enemy star cruiser and single handed destroy the entire droid army (henchmen as they may have been) on board and take over the bridge from someone like General Grievous then there is no way Grievous and the Separatists would have ever been even the slightest threat as at that time there where thousands of Jedi.
Comments
The big 'it' for me is going to be whether or not they manage to balance the lightsaber classes with the non light saber classes. If they repeat the abortion of SWG and have an alpha class then the game will sputter and disappoint even if the initial glitz is exciting. I trust Bioware to make an quality game but if 'non Jedi' = less than Jedi the game will not work, especially given the story/linear nature of the game, you cannot have a vibrant and dynamic world with only a couple classes and most certainly cannot do as much with one class standing head and shoulders above the rest, or even just a bit better than the rest.
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This is a problem that Bioware is going to run into, because based on the mythos of Star Wars the force users definitely have an advantage over others. If they make Jedi and Sith less capable than the other classes, which will be what happens if they try and make them melee class specialists, then they are going to lose a lot of players that wanted to play the game primarily to be a jedi/sith.
It's going to be interesting to see how they work it out.
Considering, when talking about the 12 Classes, they used the exact Acro/Words DPS and Tank.... ya..
This is a problem that Bioware is going to run into, because based on the mythos of Star Wars the force users definitely have an advantage over others. If they make Jedi and Sith less capable than the other classes, which will be what happens if they try and make them melee class specialists, then they are going to lose a lot of players that wanted to play the game primarily to be a jedi/sith.
It's going to be interesting to see how they work it out.
It is actually easy I think, and it was easy when SWG fouled it up. Playing Obi Wan or the other Masters and even Jedi knights is not feasible in terms of balance. You have to have the start out as a padawan type and work up. So in much of the game it is not Smuggler or Bounty Hunter verse Jedi Knight or Master but verse a training Jedi. Maybe at max level you can justify them reaching Jedi Knight level though I would say that should be some kind of capstone that takes a grind similar to what most end game gear grind is like, the trials anyone? We know from cannon and the films that a top BH, and despite what the movies show in canon the clone troopers where very competent and tough, can mix it up with a near Jedi Knight so it makes story sense. If we look to the Old Republic RPGs there is reason to think this might be what they have in mind. As I recall, it has been a while though, you got a good ways in to the game before you started using a lightsaber and a good bit further before you started doing the Obi-Wan/Vader stuff. So we shall see.
Another way to do it is make Jedi tank or healer/buffer or CC class (utility class in other words that is not so much DPS more a front line juggernaut) but I don't think they will go that route. The pets/companions will likely play in to this as well - we have not heard much about their role but they could serve to even things up a bit so that even in a 1 player on 1 player power comparison the Jedi types with relatively weak companions are countered by other classes with strong companions balancing things out.
However they handle it one thing is for certain, an MMO of all or mostly Jedi will fail as would an MMO of any one class. They have to find a way for all classes to compete, be relevant, and do so without just supporting the Jedi classes.
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This is a problem that Bioware is going to run into, because based on the mythos of Star Wars the force users definitely have an advantage over others. If they make Jedi and Sith less capable than the other classes, which will be what happens if they try and make them melee class specialists, then they are going to lose a lot of players that wanted to play the game primarily to be a jedi/sith.
It's going to be interesting to see how they work it out.
Like most people, I'm not a huge fan of the newer movies compared to the older ones. But I gotta admit I loved the part in Episode 2 where Jango Fett kicks Obi-Wan's booty. I only bring it up to show that "Star Wars Lore" has already shown that a Bounty Hunter can defeat a Jedi Knight in battle.
General Grievous also kicked Obi Wan's butt even though Obi Wan got him in the end with a blaster. And Boba Fett was mostly killed by accident, though in the non movie lore he didn't actually die at the pit on Tatooine from what I understand. Most of the Jedi as superhero stuff is from Jedi verse droid (or more generally, henchman) stuff. So there is plenty of reason to have Jedi be strong but not be alpha class superior to everything else.
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Jedi are not invincible.
Are we forgetting how Jango Fett KILLED a JEDI MASTER who SAT ON THE COUNCIL?
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coleman_Trebor
Not to mention that regular Troopers KILLED THE ENTIRE JEDI ORDER, Jango Fett fought Obi-Wan to a DRAW on Kamino, and in the EU; Boba Fett/General Grievous both killed many Jedi without use of the Force.
I still don't know why people bring up Jango Fett into this. Maybe I watched another Star Wars but in the movie I saw Jango got taken out like a chump. Mace didn't even break a sweat decaping that mofo.
Gotta say, if he was an elite Bounty Hunter than I'm not all that impressed.
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First, Yoda was, at that time, a Grand Master and Mace was not far off that and post Episode 6 Luke became a Grand Master after reconstituting the Master's Council. And consider Darth Maul verse Darth Vader - both equivalent 'rank' but obviously not equivalent in terms of power. Qui-Gon gets killed by Darth Maul even though he has the help of then padawan Obi Wan but Obi Wan the padawan manages to take out Darth Maul. Point being that this is not rock-paper-scissors stuff in the movies of the lore. There are a few exceptional individuals that the movies mainly focus on but on balance the movies and mostly the lore show the other players to stack up much as you would expect. IN the game, I should hope Jedi/Sith are of the padawan to knight variant which would have the rivaled appropriately by exceptional 'iconic' types of the other classes, smuggler and bounty hunter and so on.
Beyond that, there is a lot more to Star Wars lore than just the movies, and you have to take the movies with a grain of salt in terms of story compression and the normal movie convention of inflating things for effect. Personally, I think the first three movies show Jedi VS non Jedi and masters and all that most accurately as you see look and Vader fighting but not doing super jumps and all sorts of other superhero stuff. Most of their battle is in fact one of wills and character. Episodes 1-3 are good movies and good Star Wars but a little flashy for the times in terms of the way Jedi are these superhuman magic men. Consider the Jango VS Obi Wan fight as reasonable in terms of the overall lore, as is the Mace verse Emperor I think. But just before Mace and the Emperor square off the Emperor slices through 4 Masters like they are not even there if you go just on what the movie shows, I think that is a good example of the time compression and such you get in movies as if they made this epic confrontation of Jedi Masters and Sith Lord 'realistic' in terms of lore it would take a whole movie just by itself.
But all that aside, if you want a Star Wars MMO and you want Jedi in it then you had better want Jedi = Other classes and not have Jedi be an alpha class like in SWG or the game will tank, maybe slowly but tank it will. You just cannot have an alpha class in an MMO without severe restrictions that will never fly. MMOs need class balance to work, period. But, that being the case on the game side the movies and lore, though more consistent in lore, make a good case for balance. Heck, think about it logically, if two Jedi could fly in to a enemy star cruiser and single handed destroy the entire droid army (henchmen as they may have been) on board and take over the bridge from someone like General Grievous then there is no way Grievous and the Separatists would have ever been even the slightest threat as at that time there where thousands of Jedi.
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