Originally posted by Frobner Nah... You know that Technically this is all about Buisness... 5 years of spreading the payments out just blurs the memory abit... And then it really hurts to see others acutally pay less money to enjoy a free to play game - and EVEN if they used item shops.
I really do not follow the logic here. Are you having buyer's remorse because you now think that if you never got WoW you could have instead enjoyed the same level of gameplay for the last five years for free? I am quite interested to know which F2P game would fit that criteria. Or are you simply annoyed that others pay less for a lesser product?
I think subs beat out Cash shops for several reasons. 1. Everyone is paying the same price. Can you tell me that even if you only play 10-15 hours a week that $15 a month is to much? (10x4=40hrs/month. $15/40hrs = $0.375 an hour.) 2.Most Cash shops I have seen have bullshit time based items that expire. 3.There has been NO Cash shop game that is on par with any AAA game. 4. Spamming is a lot more in free to play because you don't have to pay for an account.
THis is not about one buisness model beating another - this is about the fact that BOTH are acutally buisness models. Buying a boxed version of a game for 45$ and playing with "unlimited" time paying 15$ a month for ... 1 month and then have to sub again for a content patch 2 months later... thats also a strong buisness model.
Im going to answer you here tho since you obviously only see it from your point of view.
1. Why should I not be able to enjoy the content of the game with friends that play 50 hours per week - when I can only play 15 ?
2. Bullshit does not strenghten any argument - Time based items are time based because thats what you are paying for - MAKING UP TIME ! SO extra 50% exp for X amount of time sounds pretty fair... You pay for what you want to play - not what you are FORCED to play for 15$.
3. Again - there HAS been ... does that mean there will not be one ? Does that mean that one that is out now can't be on par ? What about DDO ? WIll the quality of the game drop when it goes free to play ?
4. I totally agree on the spamming problem tho. Many games are now limiting global chat/shouting to lvls. After all - I kinda feel that global chat is kinda ruining the immersion of MMOs... But thats just my "bullshit" opinion.
The thing is Sub based games are also build around that buisness model. You can still play Vanilla WOW but that game is ALSO lacking without the expansions - witch you pay extra for. Veteran rewards are ok to many as long as its not stats driven rewards. I started this discussion on Veteran rewards but the fact is that sub based games are going the extra step now - like WOW ... beeing MORE gated - directly limiting player progression over time in new ways. Is it done for the good of the game - or based on the buisness model of 3 big content patches per expansion (that really should be part of the box price right ? ) and a dead time inbetween. Then ppl might skip subbing for 2 - 4 months cause of Real life comittments or hollidays. The buisnessmodel ... is loosing money ... and thats why AOC is adding Offline skillsystem - WOW is adding The path of the Titans and so on. PPL are welcome to argue what they like more. But.. do NOT talk about subs as the only payment you put towards these kinda games. And also .. lets not go down the road of calling all Free to play games - crap games. Cause you could pick 50 sub based MMOs that are totally crap anyway... Including some very resent ones.
I don't think any game will ever please you if you can find 50 recent ones that you consider total crap. Only games that will please you is one that is made by someone with infinite resources, and we all know the chances of that happening.
Only real difference between F2P and P2P is that in a F2P someone can choose not to pay at all and just bear everything the devs design. Truthfully if a player choose to pay any sort of money for a mmo, then the amount spent will be similar in the long run. Only players that F2P matter to are those that will not or cannot spend any money on a mmo but still want to play.
Plenty of people spend enough per month on F2P games that add up to roughly equal to monlthy fee + expansion every 1+ year. The end result is definitely just as profitable if not more, other wise F2P business model would not be so widespread.
Originally posted by Frobner Nah... You know that Technically this is all about Buisness... 5 years of spreading the payments out just blurs the memory abit... And then it really hurts to see others acutally pay less money to enjoy a free to play game - and EVEN if they used item shops.
I really do not follow the logic here. Are you having buyer's remorse because you now think that if you never got WoW you could have instead enjoyed the same level of gameplay for the last five years for free? I am quite interested to know which F2P game would fit that criteria. Or are you simply annoyed that others pay less for a lesser product?
The logic is that there is a talk about sub only beeing 15$ a month. When infact ppl are paying much more in terms of buy to play and then expansions. It has nothing to do with what I did for the past 5 years or what I will do for the next 5 when it comes to gaming.
Im pretty sure that free to play - item shop games that are out now (Atlantica online beeing one of the highest rated game on the market today - Runes of Magic (game with WOW quality graphix and gameplay) will be around for next 5 years. Same goes for DDO. But ofc - these games are limited by their Buisness model... and their buisness model does not involve throwing out expansions for extra cost every other year.
I dont quite follow your logic of lesser products... that something you will have to explain. Personally I look at games like Runes of Magic that is now adding a free expansion into their game as a sign of much better game than what ... lets say ... AOC and WAR have been doing for the past 3 to 5 years...
But ofc thats a matter of opinion. But then.. are there lesser opinions too ?
The thing is Sub based games are also build around that buisness model. You can still play Vanilla WOW but that game is ALSO lacking without the expansions - witch you pay extra for. Veteran rewards are ok to many as long as its not stats driven rewards. I started this discussion on Veteran rewards but the fact is that sub based games are going the extra step now - like WOW ... beeing MORE gated - directly limiting player progression over time in new ways. Is it done for the good of the game - or based on the buisness model of 3 big content patches per expansion (that really should be part of the box price right ? ) and a dead time inbetween. Then ppl might skip subbing for 2 - 4 months cause of Real life comittments or hollidays. The buisnessmodel ... is loosing money ... and thats why AOC is adding Offline skillsystem - WOW is adding The path of the Titans and so on. PPL are welcome to argue what they like more. But.. do NOT talk about subs as the only payment you put towards these kinda games. And also .. lets not go down the road of calling all Free to play games - crap games. Cause you could pick 50 sub based MMOs that are totally crap anyway... Including some very resent ones.
I don't think any game will ever please you if you can find 50 recent ones that you consider total crap. Only games that will please you is one that is made by someone with infinite resources, and we all know the chances of that happening.
Only real difference between F2P and P2P is that in a F2P someone can choose not to pay at all and just bear everything the devs design. Truthfully if a player choose to pay any sort of money for a mmo, then the amount spent will be similar in the long run. Only players that F2P matter to are those that will not or cannot spend any money on a mmo but still want to play.
Plenty of people spend enough per month on F2P games that add up to roughly equal to monlthy fee + expansion every 1+ year. The end result is definitely just as profitable if not more, other wise F2P business model would not be so widespread.
Exactly ... PPL spend money on itemshop games because these players DONT have unlimited time like the sub based games are offering. They play ...15 hours per week and want to see some progress while at it... thats just perfectly fine. For them - work and kids (like in my case) are probably worth more than "unlimited fime" in a sub based (+ box and expansions ofc).
Banwith is expensive during peak hours .. thats when most ppl play these "unlimited" sub based games. The dream for these games would be to spend less on bandwith and still get alot of income through box + expansion + expansion + expansion + sub fur x amount of time. Thats why these sub based games are aiming for the EVE- online skill system.. The thing is.. they are not sandbox games. THey are linear games build around raiding and PVP - arena style. They are claiming to be "skillbased" but still they are now gonna charge for "extra skill" ?
Im sorry... this is where either will give.. the buisness model... or the gaming style.
The thing is Sub based games are also build around that buisness model. You can still play Vanilla WOW but that game is ALSO lacking without the expansions - witch you pay extra for. Veteran rewards are ok to many as long as its not stats driven rewards. I started this discussion on Veteran rewards but the fact is that sub based games are going the extra step now - like WOW ... beeing MORE gated - directly limiting player progression over time in new ways. Is it done for the good of the game - or based on the buisness model of 3 big content patches per expansion (that really should be part of the box price right ? ) and a dead time inbetween. Then ppl might skip subbing for 2 - 4 months cause of Real life comittments or hollidays. The buisnessmodel ... is loosing money ... and thats why AOC is adding Offline skillsystem - WOW is adding The path of the Titans and so on. PPL are welcome to argue what they like more. But.. do NOT talk about subs as the only payment you put towards these kinda games. And also .. lets not go down the road of calling all Free to play games - crap games. Cause you could pick 50 sub based MMOs that are totally crap anyway... Including some very resent ones.
I don't think any game will ever please you if you can find 50 recent ones that you consider total crap. Only games that will please you is one that is made by someone with infinite resources, and we all know the chances of that happening.
Only real difference between F2P and P2P is that in a F2P someone can choose not to pay at all and just bear everything the devs design. Truthfully if a player choose to pay any sort of money for a mmo, then the amount spent will be similar in the long run. Only players that F2P matter to are those that will not or cannot spend any money on a mmo but still want to play.
Plenty of people spend enough per month on F2P games that add up to roughly equal to monlthy fee + expansion every 1+ year. The end result is definitely just as profitable if not more, other wise F2P business model would not be so widespread.
Exactly ... PPL spend money on itemshop games because these players DONT have unlimited time like the sub based games are offering. They play ...15 hours per week and want to see some progress while at it... thats just perfectly fine. For them - work and kids (like in my case) are probably worth more than "unlimited fime" in a sub based (+ box and expansions ofc).
Banwith is expensive during peak hours .. thats when most ppl play these "unlimited" sub based games. The dream for these games would be to spend less on bandwith and still get alot of income through box + expansion + expansion + expansion + sub fur x amount of time. Thats why these sub based games are aiming for the EVE- online skill system.. The thing is.. they are not sandbox games. THey are linear games build around raiding and PVP - arena style. They are claiming to be "skillbased" but still they are now gonna charge for "extra skill" ?
Im sorry... this is where either will give.. the buisness model... or the gaming style.
mm f2p is one of the best i guess ,if you remove add-on ,and send compass coord and map in the store it become the perfect mmo
Originally posted by Frobner Nah... You know that Technically this is all about Buisness... 5 years of spreading the payments out just blurs the memory abit... And then it really hurts to see others acutally pay less money to enjoy a free to play game - and EVEN if they used item shops.
I really do not follow the logic here. Are you having buyer's remorse because you now think that if you never got WoW you could have instead enjoyed the same level of gameplay for the last five years for free? I am quite interested to know which F2P game would fit that criteria. Or are you simply annoyed that others pay less for a lesser product?
The logic is that there is a talk about sub only beeing 15$ a month. When infact ppl are paying much more in terms of buy to play and then expansions. It has nothing to do with what I did for the past 5 years or what I will do for the next 5 when it comes to gaming.
Im pretty sure that free to play - item shop games that are out now (Atlantica online beeing one of the highest rated game on the market today - Runes of Magic (game with WOW quality graphix and gameplay) will be around for next 5 years. Same goes for DDO. But ofc - these games are limited by their Buisness model... and their buisness model does not involve throwing out expansions for extra cost every other year.
I dont quite follow your logic of lesser products... that something you will have to explain. Personally I look at games like Runes of Magic that is now adding a free expansion into their game as a sign of much better game than what ... lets say ... AOC and WAR have been doing for the past 3 to 5 years...
But ofc thats a matter of opinion. But then.. are there lesser opinions to ?
I will definetly agree that the true cost of a sub is more than the monthly subscription alone. It i:
true monthly cost = monthly subscription + inital cost of game / months since you started playing
So the true monthly cost of playing vanilla WoW for the first two years (including the first free month) (was 15 + 35/24 ~= 16.45 Five years in we are down to an extra $0.60 but also have to amortize the two expansions. So we are looking at an amortized fee of about $22.00 at this point which will go down to about $17 before the next expansion.
AoC is less than 1.5 years old and WaR is coming up on its 1 year anniversary and have not released a paid expansion yet. So your argument is way off on this. Are you talking about WoW and EQ?
By lesser product I mean product that is of lesser quality then what I am using at the moment. F2P games do not provide me with the quality of entertainment that WoW does so for me they are a lesser product. Since to me the cost of WoW is a minor expense I really do not see the point of lowering the quality of my experience for what is an insignificant amount of money. However, if I was once again jobless and broke, I would most certainly put a much stronger emphasis on savings vs quality.
Well just personal opinion here but I agree with the F2P community being utter garbage. Never played one that didn't seem to be full of e-peen waving 12 year olds with dyslexic spelling.
Again anecdotal but I've tried out about 8 F2P games so far and have yet to find a game where if you play 15 hours a week and just 'buy' the rest of the progression from the item mall, will you keep up with the 50 hours a week crowd. (Rappelz, silkroak, knight online etc). It's easily more than double that so you are paying 30+ a month just to be competitive.... why bother with F2P at that point when all the P2P games offer so much more?
If there is a game out there that's different let me know I'll give it a shot
*edit*
On topic I like the veteran bonus' so long as they are cosmetic/mount/title stuff etc. But this isn't a new system. UO has been doing it for a LONG time. Although if I remember right the UO version actually adds a few points to your max skill cap. Not much like 710 or 720 instead of a max of 700. This was borderline in my opinion but it seemed to work.
Originally posted by Frobner Nah... You know that Technically this is all about Buisness... 5 years of spreading the payments out just blurs the memory abit... And then it really hurts to see others acutally pay less money to enjoy a free to play game - and EVEN if they used item shops.
I really do not follow the logic here. Are you having buyer's remorse because you now think that if you never got WoW you could have instead enjoyed the same level of gameplay for the last five years for free? I am quite interested to know which F2P game would fit that criteria. Or are you simply annoyed that others pay less for a lesser product?
The logic is that there is a talk about sub only beeing 15$ a month. When infact ppl are paying much more in terms of buy to play and then expansions. It has nothing to do with what I did for the past 5 years or what I will do for the next 5 when it comes to gaming.
Im pretty sure that free to play - item shop games that are out now (Atlantica online beeing one of the highest rated game on the market today - Runes of Magic (game with WOW quality graphix and gameplay) will be around for next 5 years. Same goes for DDO. But ofc - these games are limited by their Buisness model... and their buisness model does not involve throwing out expansions for extra cost every other year.
I dont quite follow your logic of lesser products... that something you will have to explain. Personally I look at games like Runes of Magic that is now adding a free expansion into their game as a sign of much better game than what ... lets say ... AOC and WAR have been doing for the past 3 to 5 years...
But ofc thats a matter of opinion. But then.. are there lesser opinions to ?
I will definetly agree that the true cost of a sub is more than the monthly subscription alone. It i:
true monthly cost = monthly subscription + inital cost of game / months since you started playing
So the true monthly cost of playing vanilla WoW for the first two years (including the first free month) (was 15 + 35/24 ~= 16.45 Five years in we are down to an extra $0.60 but also have to amortize the two expansions. So we are looking at an amortized fee of about $22.00 at this point which will go down to about $17 before the next expansion.
AoC is less than 1.5 years old and WaR is coming up on its 1 year anniversary and have not released a paid expansion yet. So your argument is way off on this. Are you talking about WoW and EQ?
By lesser product I mean product that is of lesser quality then what I am using at the moment. F2P games do not provide me with the quality of entertainment that WoW does so for me they are a lesser product. Since to me the cost of WoW is a minor expense I really do not see the point of lowering the quality of my experience for what is an insignificant amount of money. However, if I was once again jobless and broke, I would most certainly put a much stronger emphasis on savings vs quality.
I consider WOW to be of very low quality (dont panic) since I have to play for at least 4 hours - 4 days a week to progress atm.. I simply do not have that amount of time. I rather look for games that have better quality when it comes to time managment and allow me to enjoy their MMO game (+ free added content like both Atlantica and ROM are doing now) to its fullest.
Quality is NOT messured in amount of hours you can play for 15$ in my case. There is much more to live than a MMO game.
When it comes to WAR and AOC... you were talking about lesser games. I pointed out two games that I consider both beein lesser than Atalntica and ROM. And no.. I have not spent the amount of boxed version + sub on the item shop games.
I think subs beat out Cash shops for several reasons. 1. Everyone is paying the same price. Can you tell me that even if you only play 10-15 hours a week that $15 a month is to much? (10x4=40hrs/month. $15/40hrs = $0.375 an hour.) 2.Most Cash shops I have seen have bullshit time based items that expire. 3.There has been NO Cash shop game that is on par with any AAA game. 4. Spamming is a lot more in free to play because you don't have to pay for an account.
THis is not about one buisness model beating another - this is about the fact that BOTH are acutally buisness models. Buying a boxed version of a game for 45$ and playing with "unlimited" time paying 15$ a month for ... 1 month and then have to sub again for a content patch 2 months later... thats also a strong buisness model.
Im going to answer you here tho since you obviously only see it from your point of view.
I am biased
1. Why should I not be able to enjoy the content of the game with friends that play 50 hours per week - when I can only play 15 ?
This doesn't really make sence you are not denied content due to only playing 15 hrs a week you get to have it all just at a slower pace. Now if I was playing a free to play with you and you had more money but less time, and I had more time but no money who is going to make out. You because you have the money. If we were playing an P2P, and I had more time then you I would get any item that I wanted, but so could you. Yea I might get mine a week before you, but you will still get it when you get there.
2. Bullshit does not strenghten any argument - Time based items are time based because thats what you are paying for - MAKING UP TIME ! SO extra 50% exp for X amount of time sounds pretty fair... You pay for what you want to play - not what you are FORCED to play for 15$.
I have seen armor, and weapons in games that expire. Plus games like WOW have things like rested exp to aid those that do not have 50 hrs a week to play. And it works out pretty well.
3. Again - there HAS been ... does that mean there will not be one ? Does that mean that one that is out now can't be on par ? What about DDO ? WIll the quality of the game drop when it goes free to play ?
DDO isn't a good game. My opinion, but it wouldn't be going F2P if it was a good game.
4. I totally agree on the spamming problem tho. Many games are now limiting global chat/shouting to lvls. After all - I kinda feel that global chat is kinda ruining the immersion of MMOs... But thats just my "bullshit" opinion.
Now I feel that global needs to stay in I hated when WOW got rid of the LFG channel and started that LFG flagging system.
Now I'm not a guy that has thousands of free hours to play a video game. I work as a chef at a hilton hotel so my hours are all sorts of jacked. I could play 2 hours before work, or I could play a few after work. I spend maybe 2-3 hours playing a day so I play maybe 20-24 hours a week depending on my other obligations. We are on the same playing field I feel that like 37 cents and hour well worth it.
I won't ahve to dump 15-20 bucks in a clip for a few perks and weapons. Everything you worked for I can work for. Everything you can buy I might not due to finacial constraints.
I think subs beat out Cash shops for several reasons. 1. Everyone is paying the same price. Can you tell me that even if you only play 10-15 hours a week that $15 a month is to much? (10x4=40hrs/month. $15/40hrs = $0.375 an hour.) 2.Most Cash shops I have seen have bullshit time based items that expire. 3.There has been NO Cash shop game that is on par with any AAA game. 4. Spamming is a lot more in free to play because you don't have to pay for an account.
THis is not about one buisness model beating another - this is about the fact that BOTH are acutally buisness models. Buying a boxed version of a game for 45$ and playing with "unlimited" time paying 15$ a month for ... 1 month and then have to sub again for a content patch 2 months later... thats also a strong buisness model.
Im going to answer you here tho since you obviously only see it from your point of view.
I am biased
1. Why should I not be able to enjoy the content of the game with friends that play 50 hours per week - when I can only play 15 ?
This doesn't really make sence you are not denied content due to only playing 15 hrs a week you get to have it all just at a slower pace. Now if I was playing a free to play with you and you had more money but less time, and I had more time but no money who is going to make out. You because you have the money. If we were playing an P2P, and I had more time then you I would get any item that I wanted, but so could you. Yea I might get mine a week before you, but you will still get it when you get there.
2. Bullshit does not strenghten any argument - Time based items are time based because thats what you are paying for - MAKING UP TIME ! SO extra 50% exp for X amount of time sounds pretty fair... You pay for what you want to play - not what you are FORCED to play for 15$.
I have seen armor, and weapons in games that expire. Plus games like WOW have things like rested exp to aid those that do not have 50 hrs a week to play. And it works out pretty well.
3. Again - there HAS been ... does that mean there will not be one ? Does that mean that one that is out now can't be on par ? What about DDO ? WIll the quality of the game drop when it goes free to play ?
DDO isn't a good game. My opinion, but it wouldn't be going F2P if it was a good game.
4. I totally agree on the spamming problem tho. Many games are now limiting global chat/shouting to lvls. After all - I kinda feel that global chat is kinda ruining the immersion of MMOs... But thats just my "bullshit" opinion.
Now I feel that global needs to stay in I hated when WOW got rid of the LFG channel and started that LFG flagging system.
Now I'm not a guy that has thousands of free hours to play a video game. I work as a chef at a hilton hotel so my hours are all sorts of jacked. I could play 2 hours before work, or I could play a few after work. I spend maybe 2-3 hours playing a day so I play maybe 20-24 hours a week depending on my other obligations. We are on the same playing field I feel that like 37 cents and hour well worth it.
I won't ahve to dump 15-20 bucks in a clip for a few perks and weapons. Everything you worked for I can work for. Everything you can buy I might not due to finacial constraints.
Im not quite sure if this is turning into an argument about if WOW is great and all other games are crap - or if this is really about Sub based games versus free to play (item shop games). In both cases... this topic was not created to make any judgment what is better.
My point is that both are based on buisness models. Sub based games are structured - just like free to play games - to get money. Even BLizzard might release a item shop game. Maybe they even add cosmetic fees into WOW (change colour of armor and so on). They are already taking alot of money through diffrent methods like sex changes and now even faction changes.... Its all about buisness - first and foremost.
Novelty items on my character, like clothes, wings, whatever. Bleh, how stupid is that? Has turned me off many a MMOG since you get a bunch of people who play ONLY to advance their boob size or get the freakiest looking combination of items.
I wish I could have a character that was a generic white cube with no options. I still get the gameplay but I don't have to piss fart around one iota with the look of the character, which is a total waste of space and time.
Forum signatures are stupid and annoying. I've turned mine off.
With the OP, I think there is this misperception of sub fees being used only for maintaining servers. I don't think the WoW department of Blizzard is being paid 150 million per month just to make sure the servers are up -_- It is so they can continue to develop and add to the game and provide more content.
Even though Blizzard do release content in the form of expansions does not neglect the fact that they have released free content in the form of new dungeons, raids, instances etc. It's just the advantage of being the big dog, if a lot of people love your game and you have major additions to the game -- you can get away with charging people for more since they love it and Blizzard can get away with it. Look at their new faction change, $30 to switch sides + a name change, they do it because they know people want it and they can get away with it. There will be a time where this will have to be toned down, but since they are so far on top, they are taking advantage of the situation as a business and company, who here in this forum would not do the same if they found themselves in that same position? I'll be guilty of saying that I'll take in everything I can get if my baby of an MMORPG is the big man on campus.
I agree with above posters in regards that the payment method has to match the business model and the game design. Hence DDO Unlimited going F2P only because the company felt it would match the interests of former/current D&D players seeing that they pay in similar forms via modules and handbooks. The F2P model seems to be newer but it'll evolve and eventually not include "garbage" and I can see it used fairly well especially with more independent studios trying to put their mark in the industry. I wouldn't entirely try and neglect this form of payment. I would like to see subscription models start moving outside the 15 dollar mark into more variety and also pay as you go methods would be nicer for more casual players outside of F2P and subscription.
EDIT: The veteran status for being a loyal customer isn't that big of a deal IMO. I will not choose to stay playing a game based on whether or not its going to affect my veteranness of any kind. Its an added perk, like Rewards cards at Best Buy or anything else. How can anyone complain about that. (It's really hard to use Blizzard's Path of the Titans as a comparison since it isn't tied directly to subscriptions, its just another addition to character development more so, again I wouldn't feel tied to WoW because of my glyphs on an added dynamic to character development system).
"Acording to Blizzard - Path of the Titans is a "gated" system that will be controlled by them to add new abilites to the game based on the time. Time beeing the big factor - since aparently you will not be able to "lvl" these new "abilites"(glyphs) but it will require certain amount of time to pass (1 glyph per month maybe even when there are 8 ingame)."
Thanks for clarifying what you meant by that.
It'll be interesting to see what sort of rewards actually come out of that system, as previous Veteran rewards systems are like the AOC one you describe: convenience and vanity items.
Thus far I haven't seen Veteran rewards used in a way where a new player feels gimped (even by a relatively small amount.)
I think the one that irked me most was WAR's Referral system actually, since it was a significantly faster mount.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Novelty items on my character, like clothes, wings, whatever. Bleh, how stupid is that? Has turned me off many a MMOG since you get a bunch of people who play ONLY to advance their boob size or get the freakiest looking combination of items.
I wish I could have a character that was a generic white cube with no options. I still get the gameplay but I don't have to piss fart around one iota with the look of the character, which is a total waste of space and time.
MUD's /roguelikes are still running, i think you'll enjoy that graphicless gamestyle Relies more on imagination and community, it's suprisingly great
By the way i'm pretty sure the "gated" path of the titans in wow is actually just to stop people powerlevelling them in no time, it's so the casual people and the hardcore people will level it at a similar rate. It's a bad example for this thread's argument.
oh no, i like pretty graphics, whether they be far cry esque, wow-esque (wow needs to try a cartoon shader just to really sock it home), but after character creation i ***NEVER*** look at the character again. Did you play Oblivion? You spend half a fricken hour fiddling with a character to make it the uygliest thing you have ever seen adn then it doesn't even make sense since it's first person single player and you never get to see your face ever again. I don't care how I look to me so why would I care how I look to you?
Forum signatures are stupid and annoying. I've turned mine off.
Loyalty rewards aren't anything new. Its just like getting "points" for using a credit card, or for the OLD FARTs who can remember, going to the grocery store and getting S&H green stamps.
We'll see if the rewards start imbalancing the game, and if so watch out.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Loyalty rewards aren't anything new. Its just like getting "points" for using a credit card, or for the OLD FARTs who can remember, going to the grocery store and getting S&H green stamps. We'll see if the rewards start imbalancing the game, and if so watch out.
Ken
Oh wow I remember my granmother saving those green stamps for some plates at Winn Dixie. Lol those had slipped my mind forever until you had to just bring them up lol !!! Thanks Guess Im old at 37 don't feel it though!
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I really do not follow the logic here. Are you having buyer's remorse because you now think that if you never got WoW you could have instead enjoyed the same level of gameplay for the last five years for free? I am quite interested to know which F2P game would fit that criteria. Or are you simply annoyed that others pay less for a lesser product?
THis is not about one buisness model beating another - this is about the fact that BOTH are acutally buisness models. Buying a boxed version of a game for 45$ and playing with "unlimited" time paying 15$ a month for ... 1 month and then have to sub again for a content patch 2 months later... thats also a strong buisness model.
Im going to answer you here tho since you obviously only see it from your point of view.
1. Why should I not be able to enjoy the content of the game with friends that play 50 hours per week - when I can only play 15 ?
2. Bullshit does not strenghten any argument - Time based items are time based because thats what you are paying for - MAKING UP TIME ! SO extra 50% exp for X amount of time sounds pretty fair... You pay for what you want to play - not what you are FORCED to play for 15$.
3. Again - there HAS been ... does that mean there will not be one ? Does that mean that one that is out now can't be on par ? What about DDO ? WIll the quality of the game drop when it goes free to play ?
4. I totally agree on the spamming problem tho. Many games are now limiting global chat/shouting to lvls. After all - I kinda feel that global chat is kinda ruining the immersion of MMOs... But thats just my "bullshit" opinion.
I don't think any game will ever please you if you can find 50 recent ones that you consider total crap. Only games that will please you is one that is made by someone with infinite resources, and we all know the chances of that happening.
Only real difference between F2P and P2P is that in a F2P someone can choose not to pay at all and just bear everything the devs design. Truthfully if a player choose to pay any sort of money for a mmo, then the amount spent will be similar in the long run. Only players that F2P matter to are those that will not or cannot spend any money on a mmo but still want to play.
Plenty of people spend enough per month on F2P games that add up to roughly equal to monlthy fee + expansion every 1+ year. The end result is definitely just as profitable if not more, other wise F2P business model would not be so widespread.
I really do not follow the logic here. Are you having buyer's remorse because you now think that if you never got WoW you could have instead enjoyed the same level of gameplay for the last five years for free? I am quite interested to know which F2P game would fit that criteria. Or are you simply annoyed that others pay less for a lesser product?
The logic is that there is a talk about sub only beeing 15$ a month. When infact ppl are paying much more in terms of buy to play and then expansions. It has nothing to do with what I did for the past 5 years or what I will do for the next 5 when it comes to gaming.
Im pretty sure that free to play - item shop games that are out now (Atlantica online beeing one of the highest rated game on the market today - Runes of Magic (game with WOW quality graphix and gameplay) will be around for next 5 years. Same goes for DDO. But ofc - these games are limited by their Buisness model... and their buisness model does not involve throwing out expansions for extra cost every other year.
I dont quite follow your logic of lesser products... that something you will have to explain. Personally I look at games like Runes of Magic that is now adding a free expansion into their game as a sign of much better game than what ... lets say ... AOC and WAR have been doing for the past 3 to 5 years...
But ofc thats a matter of opinion. But then.. are there lesser opinions too ?
I don't think any game will ever please you if you can find 50 recent ones that you consider total crap. Only games that will please you is one that is made by someone with infinite resources, and we all know the chances of that happening.
Only real difference between F2P and P2P is that in a F2P someone can choose not to pay at all and just bear everything the devs design. Truthfully if a player choose to pay any sort of money for a mmo, then the amount spent will be similar in the long run. Only players that F2P matter to are those that will not or cannot spend any money on a mmo but still want to play.
Plenty of people spend enough per month on F2P games that add up to roughly equal to monlthy fee + expansion every 1+ year. The end result is definitely just as profitable if not more, other wise F2P business model would not be so widespread.
Exactly ... PPL spend money on itemshop games because these players DONT have unlimited time like the sub based games are offering. They play ...15 hours per week and want to see some progress while at it... thats just perfectly fine. For them - work and kids (like in my case) are probably worth more than "unlimited fime" in a sub based (+ box and expansions ofc).
Banwith is expensive during peak hours .. thats when most ppl play these "unlimited" sub based games. The dream for these games would be to spend less on bandwith and still get alot of income through box + expansion + expansion + expansion + sub fur x amount of time. Thats why these sub based games are aiming for the EVE- online skill system.. The thing is.. they are not sandbox games. THey are linear games build around raiding and PVP - arena style. They are claiming to be "skillbased" but still they are now gonna charge for "extra skill" ?
Im sorry... this is where either will give.. the buisness model... or the gaming style.
I don't think any game will ever please you if you can find 50 recent ones that you consider total crap. Only games that will please you is one that is made by someone with infinite resources, and we all know the chances of that happening.
Only real difference between F2P and P2P is that in a F2P someone can choose not to pay at all and just bear everything the devs design. Truthfully if a player choose to pay any sort of money for a mmo, then the amount spent will be similar in the long run. Only players that F2P matter to are those that will not or cannot spend any money on a mmo but still want to play.
Plenty of people spend enough per month on F2P games that add up to roughly equal to monlthy fee + expansion every 1+ year. The end result is definitely just as profitable if not more, other wise F2P business model would not be so widespread.
Exactly ... PPL spend money on itemshop games because these players DONT have unlimited time like the sub based games are offering. They play ...15 hours per week and want to see some progress while at it... thats just perfectly fine. For them - work and kids (like in my case) are probably worth more than "unlimited fime" in a sub based (+ box and expansions ofc).
Banwith is expensive during peak hours .. thats when most ppl play these "unlimited" sub based games. The dream for these games would be to spend less on bandwith and still get alot of income through box + expansion + expansion + expansion + sub fur x amount of time. Thats why these sub based games are aiming for the EVE- online skill system.. The thing is.. they are not sandbox games. THey are linear games build around raiding and PVP - arena style. They are claiming to be "skillbased" but still they are now gonna charge for "extra skill" ?
Im sorry... this is where either will give.. the buisness model... or the gaming style.
mm f2p is one of the best i guess ,if you remove add-on ,and send compass coord and map in the store it become the perfect mmo
I really do not follow the logic here. Are you having buyer's remorse because you now think that if you never got WoW you could have instead enjoyed the same level of gameplay for the last five years for free? I am quite interested to know which F2P game would fit that criteria. Or are you simply annoyed that others pay less for a lesser product?
The logic is that there is a talk about sub only beeing 15$ a month. When infact ppl are paying much more in terms of buy to play and then expansions. It has nothing to do with what I did for the past 5 years or what I will do for the next 5 when it comes to gaming.
Im pretty sure that free to play - item shop games that are out now (Atlantica online beeing one of the highest rated game on the market today - Runes of Magic (game with WOW quality graphix and gameplay) will be around for next 5 years. Same goes for DDO. But ofc - these games are limited by their Buisness model... and their buisness model does not involve throwing out expansions for extra cost every other year.
I dont quite follow your logic of lesser products... that something you will have to explain. Personally I look at games like Runes of Magic that is now adding a free expansion into their game as a sign of much better game than what ... lets say ... AOC and WAR have been doing for the past 3 to 5 years...
But ofc thats a matter of opinion. But then.. are there lesser opinions to ?
I will definetly agree that the true cost of a sub is more than the monthly subscription alone. It i:
true monthly cost = monthly subscription + inital cost of game / months since you started playing
So the true monthly cost of playing vanilla WoW for the first two years (including the first free month) (was 15 + 35/24 ~= 16.45 Five years in we are down to an extra $0.60 but also have to amortize the two expansions. So we are looking at an amortized fee of about $22.00 at this point which will go down to about $17 before the next expansion.
AoC is less than 1.5 years old and WaR is coming up on its 1 year anniversary and have not released a paid expansion yet. So your argument is way off on this. Are you talking about WoW and EQ?
By lesser product I mean product that is of lesser quality then what I am using at the moment. F2P games do not provide me with the quality of entertainment that WoW does so for me they are a lesser product. Since to me the cost of WoW is a minor expense I really do not see the point of lowering the quality of my experience for what is an insignificant amount of money. However, if I was once again jobless and broke, I would most certainly put a much stronger emphasis on savings vs quality.
Well just personal opinion here but I agree with the F2P community being utter garbage. Never played one that didn't seem to be full of e-peen waving 12 year olds with dyslexic spelling.
Again anecdotal but I've tried out about 8 F2P games so far and have yet to find a game where if you play 15 hours a week and just 'buy' the rest of the progression from the item mall, will you keep up with the 50 hours a week crowd. (Rappelz, silkroak, knight online etc). It's easily more than double that so you are paying 30+ a month just to be competitive.... why bother with F2P at that point when all the P2P games offer so much more?
If there is a game out there that's different let me know I'll give it a shot
*edit*
On topic I like the veteran bonus' so long as they are cosmetic/mount/title stuff etc. But this isn't a new system. UO has been doing it for a LONG time. Although if I remember right the UO version actually adds a few points to your max skill cap. Not much like 710 or 720 instead of a max of 700. This was borderline in my opinion but it seemed to work.
Some MMO companies are "fighting" back by adding Microtransactions on top of the box price and monthly sub (SOE and Cryptic)...
Will be interesting what impact the hybrid model of DDO:Unlimited will have and if we will see more games with this new form of buisness model.
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
I really do not follow the logic here. Are you having buyer's remorse because you now think that if you never got WoW you could have instead enjoyed the same level of gameplay for the last five years for free? I am quite interested to know which F2P game would fit that criteria. Or are you simply annoyed that others pay less for a lesser product?
The logic is that there is a talk about sub only beeing 15$ a month. When infact ppl are paying much more in terms of buy to play and then expansions. It has nothing to do with what I did for the past 5 years or what I will do for the next 5 when it comes to gaming.
Im pretty sure that free to play - item shop games that are out now (Atlantica online beeing one of the highest rated game on the market today - Runes of Magic (game with WOW quality graphix and gameplay) will be around for next 5 years. Same goes for DDO. But ofc - these games are limited by their Buisness model... and their buisness model does not involve throwing out expansions for extra cost every other year.
I dont quite follow your logic of lesser products... that something you will have to explain. Personally I look at games like Runes of Magic that is now adding a free expansion into their game as a sign of much better game than what ... lets say ... AOC and WAR have been doing for the past 3 to 5 years...
But ofc thats a matter of opinion. But then.. are there lesser opinions to ?
I will definetly agree that the true cost of a sub is more than the monthly subscription alone. It i:
true monthly cost = monthly subscription + inital cost of game / months since you started playing
So the true monthly cost of playing vanilla WoW for the first two years (including the first free month) (was 15 + 35/24 ~= 16.45 Five years in we are down to an extra $0.60 but also have to amortize the two expansions. So we are looking at an amortized fee of about $22.00 at this point which will go down to about $17 before the next expansion.
AoC is less than 1.5 years old and WaR is coming up on its 1 year anniversary and have not released a paid expansion yet. So your argument is way off on this. Are you talking about WoW and EQ?
By lesser product I mean product that is of lesser quality then what I am using at the moment. F2P games do not provide me with the quality of entertainment that WoW does so for me they are a lesser product. Since to me the cost of WoW is a minor expense I really do not see the point of lowering the quality of my experience for what is an insignificant amount of money. However, if I was once again jobless and broke, I would most certainly put a much stronger emphasis on savings vs quality.
I consider WOW to be of very low quality (dont panic) since I have to play for at least 4 hours - 4 days a week to progress atm.. I simply do not have that amount of time. I rather look for games that have better quality when it comes to time managment and allow me to enjoy their MMO game (+ free added content like both Atlantica and ROM are doing now) to its fullest.
Quality is NOT messured in amount of hours you can play for 15$ in my case. There is much more to live than a MMO game.
When it comes to WAR and AOC... you were talking about lesser games. I pointed out two games that I consider both beein lesser than Atalntica and ROM. And no.. I have not spent the amount of boxed version + sub on the item shop games.
THis is not about one buisness model beating another - this is about the fact that BOTH are acutally buisness models. Buying a boxed version of a game for 45$ and playing with "unlimited" time paying 15$ a month for ... 1 month and then have to sub again for a content patch 2 months later... thats also a strong buisness model.
Im going to answer you here tho since you obviously only see it from your point of view.
I am biased
1. Why should I not be able to enjoy the content of the game with friends that play 50 hours per week - when I can only play 15 ?
This doesn't really make sence you are not denied content due to only playing 15 hrs a week you get to have it all just at a slower pace. Now if I was playing a free to play with you and you had more money but less time, and I had more time but no money who is going to make out. You because you have the money. If we were playing an P2P, and I had more time then you I would get any item that I wanted, but so could you. Yea I might get mine a week before you, but you will still get it when you get there.
2. Bullshit does not strenghten any argument - Time based items are time based because thats what you are paying for - MAKING UP TIME ! SO extra 50% exp for X amount of time sounds pretty fair... You pay for what you want to play - not what you are FORCED to play for 15$.
I have seen armor, and weapons in games that expire. Plus games like WOW have things like rested exp to aid those that do not have 50 hrs a week to play. And it works out pretty well.
3. Again - there HAS been ... does that mean there will not be one ? Does that mean that one that is out now can't be on par ? What about DDO ? WIll the quality of the game drop when it goes free to play ?
DDO isn't a good game. My opinion, but it wouldn't be going F2P if it was a good game.
4. I totally agree on the spamming problem tho. Many games are now limiting global chat/shouting to lvls. After all - I kinda feel that global chat is kinda ruining the immersion of MMOs... But thats just my "bullshit" opinion.
Now I feel that global needs to stay in I hated when WOW got rid of the LFG channel and started that LFG flagging system.
Now I'm not a guy that has thousands of free hours to play a video game. I work as a chef at a hilton hotel so my hours are all sorts of jacked. I could play 2 hours before work, or I could play a few after work. I spend maybe 2-3 hours playing a day so I play maybe 20-24 hours a week depending on my other obligations. We are on the same playing field I feel that like 37 cents and hour well worth it.
I won't ahve to dump 15-20 bucks in a clip for a few perks and weapons. Everything you worked for I can work for. Everything you can buy I might not due to finacial constraints.
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
THis is not about one buisness model beating another - this is about the fact that BOTH are acutally buisness models. Buying a boxed version of a game for 45$ and playing with "unlimited" time paying 15$ a month for ... 1 month and then have to sub again for a content patch 2 months later... thats also a strong buisness model.
Im going to answer you here tho since you obviously only see it from your point of view.
I am biased
1. Why should I not be able to enjoy the content of the game with friends that play 50 hours per week - when I can only play 15 ?
This doesn't really make sence you are not denied content due to only playing 15 hrs a week you get to have it all just at a slower pace. Now if I was playing a free to play with you and you had more money but less time, and I had more time but no money who is going to make out. You because you have the money. If we were playing an P2P, and I had more time then you I would get any item that I wanted, but so could you. Yea I might get mine a week before you, but you will still get it when you get there.
2. Bullshit does not strenghten any argument - Time based items are time based because thats what you are paying for - MAKING UP TIME ! SO extra 50% exp for X amount of time sounds pretty fair... You pay for what you want to play - not what you are FORCED to play for 15$.
I have seen armor, and weapons in games that expire. Plus games like WOW have things like rested exp to aid those that do not have 50 hrs a week to play. And it works out pretty well.
3. Again - there HAS been ... does that mean there will not be one ? Does that mean that one that is out now can't be on par ? What about DDO ? WIll the quality of the game drop when it goes free to play ?
DDO isn't a good game. My opinion, but it wouldn't be going F2P if it was a good game.
4. I totally agree on the spamming problem tho. Many games are now limiting global chat/shouting to lvls. After all - I kinda feel that global chat is kinda ruining the immersion of MMOs... But thats just my "bullshit" opinion.
Now I feel that global needs to stay in I hated when WOW got rid of the LFG channel and started that LFG flagging system.
Now I'm not a guy that has thousands of free hours to play a video game. I work as a chef at a hilton hotel so my hours are all sorts of jacked. I could play 2 hours before work, or I could play a few after work. I spend maybe 2-3 hours playing a day so I play maybe 20-24 hours a week depending on my other obligations. We are on the same playing field I feel that like 37 cents and hour well worth it.
I won't ahve to dump 15-20 bucks in a clip for a few perks and weapons. Everything you worked for I can work for. Everything you can buy I might not due to finacial constraints.
Im not quite sure if this is turning into an argument about if WOW is great and all other games are crap - or if this is really about Sub based games versus free to play (item shop games). In both cases... this topic was not created to make any judgment what is better.
My point is that both are based on buisness models. Sub based games are structured - just like free to play games - to get money. Even BLizzard might release a item shop game. Maybe they even add cosmetic fees into WOW (change colour of armor and so on). They are already taking alot of money through diffrent methods like sex changes and now even faction changes.... Its all about buisness - first and foremost.
Novelty items on my character, like clothes, wings, whatever. Bleh, how stupid is that? Has turned me off many a MMOG since you get a bunch of people who play ONLY to advance their boob size or get the freakiest looking combination of items.
I wish I could have a character that was a generic white cube with no options. I still get the gameplay but I don't have to piss fart around one iota with the look of the character, which is a total waste of space and time.
Forum signatures are stupid and annoying. I've turned mine off.
With the OP, I think there is this misperception of sub fees being used only for maintaining servers. I don't think the WoW department of Blizzard is being paid 150 million per month just to make sure the servers are up -_- It is so they can continue to develop and add to the game and provide more content.
Even though Blizzard do release content in the form of expansions does not neglect the fact that they have released free content in the form of new dungeons, raids, instances etc. It's just the advantage of being the big dog, if a lot of people love your game and you have major additions to the game -- you can get away with charging people for more since they love it and Blizzard can get away with it. Look at their new faction change, $30 to switch sides + a name change, they do it because they know people want it and they can get away with it. There will be a time where this will have to be toned down, but since they are so far on top, they are taking advantage of the situation as a business and company, who here in this forum would not do the same if they found themselves in that same position? I'll be guilty of saying that I'll take in everything I can get if my baby of an MMORPG is the big man on campus.
I agree with above posters in regards that the payment method has to match the business model and the game design. Hence DDO Unlimited going F2P only because the company felt it would match the interests of former/current D&D players seeing that they pay in similar forms via modules and handbooks. The F2P model seems to be newer but it'll evolve and eventually not include "garbage" and I can see it used fairly well especially with more independent studios trying to put their mark in the industry. I wouldn't entirely try and neglect this form of payment. I would like to see subscription models start moving outside the 15 dollar mark into more variety and also pay as you go methods would be nicer for more casual players outside of F2P and subscription.
EDIT: The veteran status for being a loyal customer isn't that big of a deal IMO. I will not choose to stay playing a game based on whether or not its going to affect my veteranness of any kind. Its an added perk, like Rewards cards at Best Buy or anything else. How can anyone complain about that. (It's really hard to use Blizzard's Path of the Titans as a comparison since it isn't tied directly to subscriptions, its just another addition to character development more so, again I wouldn't feel tied to WoW because of my glyphs on an added dynamic to character development system).
"Acording to Blizzard - Path of the Titans is a "gated" system that will be controlled by them to add new abilites to the game based on the time. Time beeing the big factor - since aparently you will not be able to "lvl" these new "abilites"(glyphs) but it will require certain amount of time to pass (1 glyph per month maybe even when there are 8 ingame)."
Thanks for clarifying what you meant by that.
It'll be interesting to see what sort of rewards actually come out of that system, as previous Veteran rewards systems are like the AOC one you describe: convenience and vanity items.
Thus far I haven't seen Veteran rewards used in a way where a new player feels gimped (even by a relatively small amount.)
I think the one that irked me most was WAR's Referral system actually, since it was a significantly faster mount.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The issue is that a lot of people seem to put a lot of importance on items that have no effect on gameplay.
Not like ppl do that in real life, buying a lot of stuff that they plainly don't need...lol
Novelty items on my character, like clothes, wings, whatever. Bleh, how stupid is that? Has turned me off many a MMOG since you get a bunch of people who play ONLY to advance their boob size or get the freakiest looking combination of items.
I wish I could have a character that was a generic white cube with no options. I still get the gameplay but I don't have to piss fart around one iota with the look of the character, which is a total waste of space and time.
MUD's /roguelikes are still running, i think you'll enjoy that graphicless gamestyle
Relies more on imagination and community, it's suprisingly great 
By the way i'm pretty sure the "gated" path of the titans in wow is actually just to stop people powerlevelling them in no time, it's so the casual people and the hardcore people will level it at a similar rate. It's a bad example for this thread's argument.
<Welcome to my world>
oh no, i like pretty graphics, whether they be far cry esque, wow-esque (wow needs to try a cartoon shader just to really sock it home), but after character creation i ***NEVER*** look at the character again. Did you play Oblivion? You spend half a fricken hour fiddling with a character to make it the uygliest thing you have ever seen adn then it doesn't even make sense since it's first person single player and you never get to see your face ever again. I don't care how I look to me so why would I care how I look to you?
Forum signatures are stupid and annoying. I've turned mine off.
Loyalty rewards aren't anything new. Its just like getting "points" for using a credit card, or for the OLD FARTs who can remember, going to the grocery store and getting S&H green stamps.
We'll see if the rewards start imbalancing the game, and if so watch out.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Oh wow I remember my granmother saving those green stamps for some plates at Winn Dixie. Lol those had slipped my mind forever until you had to just bring them up lol !!! Thanks
Guess Im old at 37 
don't feel it though!
The subs mmos are not fighting back, they are being changed by the f2p mmos.