Originally posted by Fortenc I totally disagree with you, but that's fine. Also, I don't want to know how to do certain things.. miagi has already stated his way of attaining knowledge: checking up on websites about it. I don't play EvE any more because even when I payed for it I just watched it rather than playing it, so I don't want to know how you do things. The majority of new players blah blah can't blah blah as well as older blah blah because skills blah blah levels blah blah death and a new ship. Thanks again for your rudeness.
No one is being rude to you. I am not nice, certainly but why should I be?
You were told repeatedly that despite what you think, the game does not work the way you describe it. You were provided examples of game experience that clearly proved you that you are wrong. This was a helpful hand given to you but you still went on with your ranting.
Don't spit into helpfull people's faces and wonder about their reaction afterwards...
Keep your opinions, I'll keep mine. Don't agree with them then I wholeheartedly invite you to offer a persuasive argument against my opinion, though don't hold your breath because the experience of my friends and I as well as many others whom I have talked to speak volumes in favor to my cause.
I don't think randomly spouting about how awesome your blah blah build for a certain ship that you can get in (3 months?) really wins any arguments about anything, but once again, my opinion.
I shall keep my spit within my maw where it belongs, not on anyone else.. maybe you should do the same.
This is an epic flame war of sorts, though.
EDIT: "You were told repeatedly that despite what you think, the game does not work the way you describe it. You were provided examples of game experience that clearly proved you that you are wrong.
This was a helpful hand given to you but you still went on with your ranting.
Don't spit into helpfull people's faces and wonder about their reaction afterwards..."
By the way, I can pretty much throw that entire statement back at the both of you.. well, not specifically you, because you have offered no evidence.. you just jumped onto the bandwagon and started off with vaguely veiled insults rather than anything solid.
Objectivity is delivered with a lack of personality made for the mainstream but never used for the mainstream.
I went to have a Night's rest - only to come back and find that Fortenc and Kie spoiled this thread, please take your EvE arguments to the proper forum.
Its NOT ABOUT EVE! I'm sorry about using it as sample.
Ok let me get back on track.
If you take the proposed game and look at normal skill development of any "pre-modern age" human development, before schoolgoing was officially implemented, people learned mostly by what the could from parents, now If our MPC's in early stages of the game "NOOB Island" is our parents the first choice would be to select an parent - with skills you could use as starting block, another selection would give you different skills like the blacksmith vs the butcher vs the guard.
The skilltree would then have starter abilities as a child can fit through smaller holes/windows he is more skilled as an breakin thief, where an strong (Skilled) large man will NOT be able to do so and must relay on up front close combat to overpower his prey
To progress through this proposed game you would then skill yourself first in some basic fighting using knives and small weapons - even became specialised in them, after you have learned all there is to learn about those the game offers you more choices and again you can progress to either restart paralel skill branch or go further to next in line.
Sorry using EVE again - so little samples tout thwere i know of. It is like specilise if frigates and their particular special skills req to optimise the frig use along with its guns and system until you exhausted all of that. Some of the skills learned will be generic and cross speciality boundries.
This open newer and other directions for you, you never lose the attained skills but now you can start to use lets say explosives and you have grown in age, less agile and maybe cant crawl through small spaces anymore but you can now blow stuff up with explosives.
I dont know - I'd form an think tank to set-up these things but imagine the game. would be awesome.
Oh yes that lil thif in my sample would be quite handy for the older player in massive armour to go steal some important docs in the enemy cam - crawling through small holes and move silent as he still dont have to much armour on? How about play with the older toons from day one?
Sandboxed, to answer other comments would depict nonliniar progression, as myu sample show, you will have the coice of tree/direction to take and also skills to learn. Can even start NOOB skill after a time and be able to use them. The older player in massive armour can equip clothy/magic armour and go heal lol endless.
The playfield need to be full of stuff to do and player build made content must be added, like that house or fort / keep even guild shops doing and selling tradeskills to players visiting the specific area. Have guild build routes, as their skills grow improve the communication and infrastructure, even travel to their area of existance. this will then OFC be the place to defend against seiges etc from nearby enemy.
Well my dream ... just need a few billion USD to make it.
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?]) I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
I apologize for hijacking your thread with arguing by the way. Using EvE as a recurring example just turned into arguing.
Anyway, it's an interesting concept but it has a few problems with it, one being that growing up would be undesirable for many if they wished to continue stealth gameplay. They would have to create a new character if there was an age system. One way of fixing this is to add a race/species which is naturally stealthy but can once more be upgraded like you said. Or maybe characters never age.
The other real problem is finding a world and goals in which to base this game. As a sandbox it might be more confusing to start off than EvE. I think it would be an interesting game to try out a system -other- than the usual quest system, one that provides more of goals rather than step-by-step progression. Such as earn blah much money however you can to support your family. Of course you can choose not to, it depends how far into the sandbox realm this game is meant to fit.. a true sandbox would be player-object-player interaction more often than not unless NPCs just did not give quests and instead did menial labors that.. you could also do.. hmm...
It's an interesting idea but the world would have to be absolutely engrossing for the characters to enjoy growing up and getting stronger in it. I'd like to see a game like this developed in a fantasy setting, whether set in our medieval world or a more fantastical one.
Sorry again about the arguments.
Objectivity is delivered with a lack of personality made for the mainstream but never used for the mainstream.
Originally posted by Morons I went to have a Night's rest - only to come back and find that Fortenc and Kie spoiled this thread, please take your EvE arguments to the proper forum. Its NOT ABOUT EVE! I'm sorry about using it as sample. Ok let me get back on track. If you take the proposed game and look at normal skill development of any "pre-modern age" human development, before schoolgoing was officially implemented, people learned mostly by what the could from parents, now If our MPC's in early stages of the game "NOOB Island" is our parents the first choice would be to select an parent - with skills you could use as starting block, another selection would give you different skills like the blacksmith vs the butcher vs the guard. The skilltree would then have starter abilities as a child can fit through smaller holes/windows he is more skilled as an breakin thief, where an strong (Skilled) large man will NOT be able to do so and must relay on up front close combat to overpower his prey To progress through this proposed game you would then skill yourself first in some basic fighting using knives and small weapons - even became specialised in them, after you have learned all there is to learn about those the game offers you more choices and again you can progress to either restart paralel skill branch or go further to next in line. Sorry using EVE again - so little samples tout thwere i know of. It is like specilise if frigates and their particular special skills req to optimise the frig use along with its guns and system until you exhausted all of that. Some of the skills learned will be generic and cross speciality boundries. This open newer and other directions for you, you never lose the attained skills but now you can start to use lets say explosives and you have grown in age, less agile and maybe cant crawl through small spaces anymore but you can now blow stuff up with explosives. I dont know - I'd form an think tank to set-up these things but imagine the game. would be awesome. Oh yes that lil thif in my sample would be quite handy for the older player in massive armour to go steal some important docs in the enemy cam - crawling through small holes and move silent as he still dont have to much armour on? How about play with the older toons from day one? Sandboxed, to answer other comments would depict nonliniar progression, as myu sample show, you will have the coice of tree/direction to take and also skills to learn. Can even start NOOB skill after a time and be able to use them. The older player in massive armour can equip clothy/magic armour and go heal lol endless. The playfield need to be full of stuff to do and player build made content must be added, like that house or fort / keep even guild shops doing and selling tradeskills to players visiting the specific area. Have guild build routes, as their skills grow improve the communication and infrastructure, even travel to their area of existance. this will then OFC be the place to defend against seiges etc from nearby enemy. Well my dream ... just need a few billion USD to make it.
As you were already told, what you write about is no sandbox, it is game features and/or content. Sandbox is game design - the mechanics behind the game.
Let's take EVE as an example. You could just stick in classes with predifined maxed skills in there and it would not change the game much in core.
Character progression is irrelevant. There is no particular feature or content that make the game sandbox, it is how those two interact bewteen each other, towards player and vice versa.
I would say one of the things about themepark games is that there is only one way interaction: gameworld -> player. The world provides mobs, exp, quests, gear but there is nothing how a player can contribute to game world.
Have seen the recent trailer for EVE, the Butterfly effect?
I suggest you to change the topic to something that suits better to your post or work more on your thoughts about game mechanics instead of game features.
As you were already told, what you write about is no sandbox, it is game features and/or content. Sandbox is game design - the mechanics behind the game.
Let's take EVE as an example. You could just stick in classes with predifined maxed skills in there and it would not change the game much in core.
Character progression is irrelevant. There is no particular feature or content that make the game sandbox, it is how those two interact bewteen each other, towards player and vice versa.
I would say one of the things about themepark games is that there is only one way interaction: gameworld -> player. The world provides mobs, exp, quests, gear but there is nothing how a player can contribute to game world.
Have seen the recent trailer for EVE, the Butterfly effect?
I suggest you to change the topic to something that suits better to your post or work more on your thoughts about game mechanics instead of game features.
My failure to comply to your definition is sad, again not the argument of this post
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_gameplay "A game that is noticeably nonlinear is described as open-ended or as a sandbox. Nonlinear games are sometimes described as providing emergent gameplay.
Simply put my proposed game does have an Storyline, but its not the main focus, you the player and your action will determine the main storyline, all story the game must provide is the setting and a lot of related side-stories to support the central theme.
Example: If you make an Keep that keep become an permanent fixture and the wars around that keep will be written by copywriters into the grand scheme of things, while the Game designers add new toys for you to play with and modify / balance existing stuff covered with good storytelling about it.
The sample about the child / youngling earlier does not mean the game will have those, it does not mean that they will not grow up. I was only tapping on RL samples. RL life simulated would actually make for nice Sandboxed game.
Game designers just give you an world of any age in time and lots of equipment toys to be invented / conjured or whatever mechanic they feel to use.
My original Ideal back in 1985 was to create an online game, yes modems and bulletin boards was then the main stuff. Any case back then we dreamt of an real world simulation were we would connect to Real life Universities, online consultants, real money, actually e-commerce, allow people to live online - never need to go outside the game...... well today we have the ultimate sandboxed game - the Internet.
Now the only thing left out was the world of "escapism" and gaming. Well hence this idea to make an open, fairly large semi-empty space and let the players build stuff, blow up others and hide some things to be discovered - maybe help along but in a reaction to the current player set. Yes provide balance.
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?]) I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
You see how I get prodded into arguments now, heheh.
But yes, the closer you get to real life in mechanics and flow the closer you get to a sandbox game.. until you hit the line of infinite and law, which you would not be able to pass with real life mechanics and flow.. so from that point it becomes interesting.
Objectivity is delivered with a lack of personality made for the mainstream but never used for the mainstream.
Originally posted by Morons My failure to comply to your definition is sad, again not the argument of this post en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_gameplay "A game that is noticeably nonlinear is described as open-ended or as a sandbox. Nonlinear games are sometimes described as providing emergent gameplay.
Simply put my proposed game does have an Storyline, but its not the main focus, you the player and your action will determine the main storyline, all story the game must provide is the setting and a lot of related side-stories to support the central theme.
Example: If you make an Keep that keep become an permanent fixture and the wars around that keep will be written by copywriters into the grand scheme of things, while the Game designers add new toys for you to play with and modify / balance existing stuff covered with good storytelling about it.
The sample about the child / youngling earlier does not mean the game will have those, it does not mean that they will not grow up. I was only tapping on RL samples. RL life simulated would actually make for nice Sandboxed game.
Game designers just give you an world of any age in time and lots of equipment toys to be invented / conjured or whatever mechanic they feel to use.
My original Ideal back in 1985 was to create an online game, yes modems and bulletin boards was then the main stuff. Any case back then we dreamt of an real world simulation were we would connect to Real life Universities, online consultants, real money, actually e-commerce, allow people to live online - never need to go outside the game...... well today we have the ultimate sandboxed game - the Internet.
Now the only thing left out was the world of "escapism" and gaming. Well hence this idea to make an open, fairly large semi-empty space and let the players build stuff, blow up others and hide some things to be discovered - maybe help along but in a reaction to the current player set. Yes provide balance.
Where to start... 1) Non-linear game does not mean it is a sandbox. Every game, sandbox or themepark needs an objective.
What is the objective of your game and mechanics the game will have to reach it?
Please refrain from describing particular features since it does not say anything about game design.
Every game, sandbox or themepark needs an objective. What is the objective of your game and mechanics the game will have to reach it?
Please refrain from describing particular features since it does not say anything about game design.
Please make a seperate post an tell everyone what you think is an Sandboxed game, also please log onto the above WiKi and edit some there, seeing that you know so much.
Eich, some ppl just cant be included in an brainstorm session were positive and creative thinking is asked for.
I will for sure remember you to give the negative comments required, - just to balance the positive a bit.
Cee no features
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?]) I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
mm op in a sense you replace xp with skill its the same problem lol,in my view there shouldnt be any limit anywhere your powerfull or your not
no req if you cant kill the monster it means your not powerfull enough,but the be it limted by say time,level ,skill or whats not !the fact is its either limited or everybody lvl 0 with zero skill and its one huge story
good for rp player but what about raider ,mm might work too often player just want new stuff so they couldnt care less if its lvl 80 or lvl 0 might have to remoove stuff to make it work tho
no more add-on,map,coord,compass
compass can be made
probably would need to see 20 000 different dude or dudette to reach said dungeon ,skip one you start at the start etc but
i believe there are ways to do a game without level .game maker would have to think a big 3 d instead of 1 d like they do right now but made carefully lol it would probably be more fun
check gw 1 you can top level 20 very early so what you do with the rest of your time go play it you ll understand
its in a sense what you ask the only thing missing is oppen world ,wich we ll probably get in gw2
Originally posted by Morons Please make a seperate post an tell everyone what you think is an Sandboxed game, also please log onto the above WiKi and edit some there, seeing that you know so much. Eich, some ppl just cant be included in an brainstorm session were positive and creative thinking is asked for. I will for sure remember you to give the negative comments required, - just to balance the positive a bit. Cee no features
I only refer to your own link to wiki so don't really understand what you complain about.
Ever wanted to get RID of the End-Game? I have been dreaming of an game, not unsimilar to the current WoW, LoTRO, WaR etc that is totally sandboxed. This can easily be done. <Snipped...>
As my starting states, you could gather I dont have an game nor storyline, Just a dream, however I can imagine an objective or many objectives that will satisfy many outcomes for all types of MMO playerstyles.
I presume you have seen the The Daedalus Project were you can easily enough get the demographic information as well as summation of charater styles. The with some good storytelling and copywriting you could make up some nice story/lore with multiple goals depend on the player style and so forth.
Me I just want to build new stuff and go blow stuff up from my enemi. Well gime some blueprints, place to build, fortify whatever, chuck in some rewards and allow me to hunt down the enemy. Ill be happy.
The other me want to go and do commerce, make stuff, go sell stuff all over the place. hmm make me think - I have seem some complex systems were you can actually earn or negotiate factional point making them like/hate you more. could be nice to sell to your enemy as well as friends, Even try and stay neutral, hey this means I'm probably not killed by evreyone and can play the game I want to.
Once tired of one way / style of play why not switch. Someone was moaning about the time it takes to skill, well this will be a good place to spend that time in the Commerce phase.
Yet another me want to go infiltrate my enemi and Sabotage them with deliberate action aimed at weakening my enemi through subversion, obstruction, disruption, and/or destruction meathods. Again while training other skills.
Afterwards just go for Mayhem and carnage with your guildmates
Maybe you want to explore, find the gold, lewt, or other hidden places - open new dungeons hidden by the gamemasters, locate storyline mobs.
I duno, this dream can go on forever and so would the income stream of such an game.
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?]) I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
Originally posted by Morons As my starting states, you could gather I dont have an game nor storyline, Just a dream, however I can imagine an objective or many objectives that will satisfy many outcomes for all types of MMO playerstyles. I presume you have seen the The Daedalus Project were you can easily enough get the demographic information as well as summation of charater styles. The with some good storytelling and copywriting you could make up some nice story/lore with multiple goals depend on the player style and so forth. Me I just want to build new stuff and go blow stuff up from my enemi. Well gime some blueprints, place to build, fortify whatever, chuck in some rewards and allow me to hunt down the enemy. Ill be happy. The other me want to go and do commerce, make stuff, go sell stuff all over the place. hmm make me think - I have seem some complex systems were you can actually earn or negotiate factional point making them like/hate you more. could be nice to sell to your enemy as well as friends, Even try and stay neutral, hey this means I'm probably not killed by evreyone and can play the game I want to. Once tired of one way / style of play why not switch. Someone was moaning about the time it takes to skill, well this will be a good place to spend that time in the Commerce phase. Yet another me want to go infiltrate my enemi and Sabotage them with deliberate action aimed at weakening my enemi through subversion, obstruction, disruption, and/or destruction meathods. Again while training other skills. Afterwards just go for Mayhem and carnage with your guildmates Maybe you want to explore, find the gold, lewt, or other hidden places - open new dungeons hidden by the gamemasters, locate storyline mobs. I duno, this dream can go on forever and so would the income stream of such an game.
I guess it was my bad when I assumed that you have something constructive and thought-out in your mind laying next to your dream that you want to discuss.
You should change the thread title though since it is quite misleading.
Originally posted by miagisan name 1 game that a baby toon can go against a fully maxed out toon.......
Planetside. Guild Wars (though it's likely the starting builds aren't 100% competitive.) And the majority of non-MMO multiplayer games.
Games where (a) progression is lateral, or (b) progression isn't really part of the game.
This is off-topic but:
The sample was that the baby toon can play "with" not against fully maxed toon, Anycase to illustrate
In EvE After the toon got out of basic / noob island type of scenario, Toon can team with the big boys and actually contribute. for example. the small toon in the EvE scanario would be in an frigate, fast agile and small, the big guy in an battleship (worse if larger ship is used) cannot reach the frigate with AOE type smartbombs nor will his guns track the orbiting bugger fast enough to hit him, also the blast (damagevalue x damage area) negate much of the blast as the damage explosion will only hit the target over its frontal area therefore most of the hit will blast over/under pass the frigate. However the frigate cant really harm the BS either althow his blastarea is smaller and tracking is fast the blast will hit the battleship full on but his dps is low and easily absorbed / tanked, however in the role as tackler or dpsíng enemy tacklers he is extremely valuable. The main secret is to know your game and setup and know how to play it in the roles you take in battle. If you dont know what you do and get inside AOE range or stand still relative to the enemy - well expect to die plenty times.
It would really be unlogic to try and pitch the small / young / lil against the large except in the CC role and mopping up of the similar sized enemy.
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?]) I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
Your EVE example doesn't sound particularly impressive. Still sounds like the lowbie char has barely any value.
For PVP, I could take a Planetside char and in 10 minutes be killing max-level characters. Some of the best players in the game, even. You just had to engage when your limited weapon choices were at their peak value, and avoid the enemy if they wisely used their superior flexibility to field weaponry you couldn't deal with.
For PVE, I can sidekick to my highbie friend in City of Heroes and be killing enemies 20 levels above me. (although if I'm particularly low I won't have a very good spread of abilities, nor will I have a travel power, and my attacks will do a little less damage than a full-fledged highbie.)
In both cases, the lowbie is at least ~75% as effective as the high level player, which just doesn't seem to be the case in your EVE example (and that's fine. Games with verticle progression are fine; just don't try to pass them off as having lateral progression or being able to play with/against high level players effectively.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your EVE example doesn't sound particularly impressive. Still sounds like the lowbie char has barely any value. For PVP, I could take a Planetside char and in 10 minutes be killing max-level characters. Some of the best players in the game, even. You just had to engage when your limited weapon choices were at their peak value, and avoid the enemy if they wisely used their superior flexibility to field weaponry you couldn't deal with. For PVE, I can sidekick to my highbie friend in City of Heroes and be killing enemies 20 levels above me. (although if I'm particularly low I won't have a very good spread of abilities, nor will I have a travel power, and my attacks will do a little less damage than a full-fledged highbie.) In both cases, the lowbie is at least ~75% as effective as the high level player, which just doesn't seem to be the case in your EVE example (and that's fine. Games with verticle progression are fine; just don't try to pass them off as having lateral progression or being able to play with/against high level players effectively.)
I hate it when ignorant players post stupid stuff like this, Had you played for some years like I did you had the right to comment !
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?]) I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
Originally posted by Morons I hate it when ignorant players post stupid stuff like this, Had you played for some years like I did you had the right to comment !
My understanding of the game is exactly as ignorant as you make it. Give poor examples, get ignorant posts.
You explicitly explained a situation where a lowbie was incapable of defeating a highbie. That's verticle progression.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
No one is being rude to you. I am not nice, certainly but why should I be?
You were told repeatedly that despite what you think, the game does not work the way you describe it. You were provided examples of game experience that clearly proved you that you are wrong.
This was a helpful hand given to you but you still went on with your ranting.
Don't spit into helpfull people's faces and wonder about their reaction afterwards...
Keep your opinions, I'll keep mine. Don't agree with them then I wholeheartedly invite you to offer a persuasive argument against my opinion, though don't hold your breath because the experience of my friends and I as well as many others whom I have talked to speak volumes in favor to my cause.
I don't think randomly spouting about how awesome your blah blah build for a certain ship that you can get in (3 months?) really wins any arguments about anything, but once again, my opinion.
I shall keep my spit within my maw where it belongs, not on anyone else.. maybe you should do the same.
This is an epic flame war of sorts, though.
EDIT: "You were told repeatedly that despite what you think, the game does not work the way you describe it. You were provided examples of game experience that clearly proved you that you are wrong.
This was a helpful hand given to you but you still went on with your ranting.
Don't spit into helpfull people's faces and wonder about their reaction afterwards..."
By the way, I can pretty much throw that entire statement back at the both of you.. well, not specifically you, because you have offered no evidence.. you just jumped onto the bandwagon and started off with vaguely veiled insults rather than anything solid.
Objectivity is delivered with a lack of personality made for the mainstream but never used for the mainstream.
I went to have a Night's rest - only to come back and find that Fortenc and Kie spoiled this thread, please take your EvE arguments to the proper forum.
Its NOT ABOUT EVE! I'm sorry about using it as sample.
Ok let me get back on track.
If you take the proposed game and look at normal skill development of any "pre-modern age" human development, before schoolgoing was officially implemented, people learned mostly by what the could from parents, now If our MPC's in early stages of the game "NOOB Island" is our parents the first choice would be to select an parent - with skills you could use as starting block, another selection would give you different skills like the blacksmith vs the butcher vs the guard.
The skilltree would then have starter abilities as a child can fit through smaller holes/windows he is more skilled as an breakin thief, where an strong (Skilled) large man will NOT be able to do so and must relay on up front close combat to overpower his prey
To progress through this proposed game you would then skill yourself first in some basic fighting using knives and small weapons - even became specialised in them, after you have learned all there is to learn about those the game offers you more choices and again you can progress to either restart paralel skill branch or go further to next in line.
Sorry using EVE again - so little samples tout thwere i know of. It is like specilise if frigates and their particular special skills req to optimise the frig use along with its guns and system until you exhausted all of that. Some of the skills learned will be generic and cross speciality boundries.
This open newer and other directions for you, you never lose the attained skills but now you can start to use lets say explosives and you have grown in age, less agile and maybe cant crawl through small spaces anymore but you can now blow stuff up with explosives.
I dont know - I'd form an think tank to set-up these things but imagine the game. would be awesome.
Oh yes that lil thif in my sample would be quite handy for the older player in massive armour to go steal some important docs in the enemy cam - crawling through small holes and move silent as he still dont have to much armour on? How about play with the older toons from day one?
Sandboxed, to answer other comments would depict nonliniar progression, as myu sample show, you will have the coice of tree/direction to take and also skills to learn. Can even start NOOB skill after a time and be able to use them. The older player in massive armour can equip clothy/magic armour and go heal lol endless.
The playfield need to be full of stuff to do and player build made content must be added, like that house or fort / keep even guild shops doing and selling tradeskills to players visiting the specific area. Have guild build routes, as their skills grow improve the communication and infrastructure, even travel to their area of existance. this will then OFC be the place to defend against seiges etc from nearby enemy.
Well my dream ... just need a few billion USD to make it.
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?])
I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
I apologize for hijacking your thread with arguing by the way. Using EvE as a recurring example just turned into arguing.
Anyway, it's an interesting concept but it has a few problems with it, one being that growing up would be undesirable for many if they wished to continue stealth gameplay. They would have to create a new character if there was an age system. One way of fixing this is to add a race/species which is naturally stealthy but can once more be upgraded like you said. Or maybe characters never age.
The other real problem is finding a world and goals in which to base this game. As a sandbox it might be more confusing to start off than EvE. I think it would be an interesting game to try out a system -other- than the usual quest system, one that provides more of goals rather than step-by-step progression. Such as earn blah much money however you can to support your family. Of course you can choose not to, it depends how far into the sandbox realm this game is meant to fit.. a true sandbox would be player-object-player interaction more often than not unless NPCs just did not give quests and instead did menial labors that.. you could also do.. hmm...
It's an interesting idea but the world would have to be absolutely engrossing for the characters to enjoy growing up and getting stronger in it. I'd like to see a game like this developed in a fantasy setting, whether set in our medieval world or a more fantastical one.
Sorry again about the arguments.
Objectivity is delivered with a lack of personality made for the mainstream but never used for the mainstream.
As you were already told, what you write about is no sandbox, it is game features and/or content. Sandbox is game design - the mechanics behind the game.
Let's take EVE as an example. You could just stick in classes with predifined maxed skills in there and it would not change the game much in core.
Character progression is irrelevant. There is no particular feature or content that make the game sandbox, it is how those two interact bewteen each other, towards player and vice versa.
I would say one of the things about themepark games is that there is only one way interaction: gameworld -> player. The world provides mobs, exp, quests, gear but there is nothing how a player can contribute to game world.
Have seen the recent trailer for EVE, the Butterfly effect?
I suggest you to change the topic to something that suits better to your post or work more on your thoughts about game mechanics instead of game features.
As you were already told, what you write about is no sandbox, it is game features and/or content. Sandbox is game design - the mechanics behind the game.
Let's take EVE as an example. You could just stick in classes with predifined maxed skills in there and it would not change the game much in core.
Character progression is irrelevant. There is no particular feature or content that make the game sandbox, it is how those two interact bewteen each other, towards player and vice versa.
I would say one of the things about themepark games is that there is only one way interaction: gameworld -> player. The world provides mobs, exp, quests, gear but there is nothing how a player can contribute to game world.
Have seen the recent trailer for EVE, the Butterfly effect?
I suggest you to change the topic to something that suits better to your post or work more on your thoughts about game mechanics instead of game features.
My failure to comply to your definition is sad, again not the argument of this post
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_gameplay "A game that is noticeably nonlinear is described as open-ended or as a sandbox. Nonlinear games are sometimes described as providing emergent gameplay.
Simply put my proposed game does have an Storyline, but its not the main focus, you the player and your action will determine the main storyline, all story the game must provide is the setting and a lot of related side-stories to support the central theme.
Example: If you make an Keep that keep become an permanent fixture and the wars around that keep will be written by copywriters into the grand scheme of things, while the Game designers add new toys for you to play with and modify / balance existing stuff covered with good storytelling about it.
The sample about the child / youngling earlier does not mean the game will have those, it does not mean that they will not grow up. I was only tapping on RL samples. RL life simulated would actually make for nice Sandboxed game.
Game designers just give you an world of any age in time and lots of equipment toys to be invented / conjured or whatever mechanic they feel to use.
My original Ideal back in 1985 was to create an online game, yes modems and bulletin boards was then the main stuff. Any case back then we dreamt of an real world simulation were we would connect to Real life Universities, online consultants, real money, actually e-commerce, allow people to live online - never need to go outside the game...... well today we have the ultimate sandboxed game - the Internet.
Now the only thing left out was the world of "escapism" and gaming. Well hence this idea to make an open, fairly large semi-empty space and let the players build stuff, blow up others and hide some things to be discovered - maybe help along but in a reaction to the current player set. Yes provide balance.
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?])
I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
You see how I get prodded into arguments now, heheh.
But yes, the closer you get to real life in mechanics and flow the closer you get to a sandbox game.. until you hit the line of infinite and law, which you would not be able to pass with real life mechanics and flow.. so from that point it becomes interesting.
Objectivity is delivered with a lack of personality made for the mainstream but never used for the mainstream.
Where to start...
1) Non-linear game does not mean it is a sandbox.
Every game, sandbox or themepark needs an objective.
What is the objective of your game and mechanics the game will have to reach it?
Please refrain from describing particular features since it does not say anything about game design.
Please make a seperate post an tell everyone what you think is an Sandboxed game, also please log onto the above WiKi and edit some there, seeing that you know so much.
Eich, some ppl just cant be included in an brainstorm session were positive and creative thinking is asked for.
I will for sure remember you to give the negative comments required, - just to balance the positive a bit.
Cee no features
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?])
I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
mm op in a sense you replace xp with skill its the same problem lol,in my view there shouldnt be any limit anywhere your powerfull or your not
no req if you cant kill the monster it means your not powerfull enough,but the be it limted by say time,level ,skill or whats not !the fact is its either limited or everybody lvl 0 with zero skill and its one huge story
good for rp player but what about raider ,mm might work too often player just want new stuff so they couldnt care less if its lvl 80 or lvl 0 might have to remoove stuff to make it work tho
no more add-on,map,coord,compass
compass can be made
probably would need to see 20 000 different dude or dudette to reach said dungeon ,skip one you start at the start etc but
i believe there are ways to do a game without level .game maker would have to think a big 3 d instead of 1 d like they do right now but made carefully lol it would probably be more fun
check gw 1 you can top level 20 very early so what you do with the rest of your time go play it you ll understand
its in a sense what you ask the only thing missing is oppen world ,wich we ll probably get in gw2
Can you provide an answer to what I asked?
As my starting states, you could gather I dont have an game nor storyline, Just a dream, however I can imagine an objective or many objectives that will satisfy many outcomes for all types of MMO playerstyles.
I presume you have seen the The Daedalus Project were you can easily enough get the demographic information as well as summation of charater styles. The with some good storytelling and copywriting you could make up some nice story/lore with multiple goals depend on the player style and so forth.
Me I just want to build new stuff and go blow stuff up from my enemi. Well gime some blueprints, place to build, fortify whatever, chuck in some rewards and allow me to hunt down the enemy. Ill be happy.
The other me want to go and do commerce, make stuff, go sell stuff all over the place. hmm make me think - I have seem some complex systems were you can actually earn or negotiate factional point making them like/hate you more. could be nice to sell to your enemy as well as friends, Even try and stay neutral, hey this means I'm probably not killed by evreyone and can play the game I want to.
Once tired of one way / style of play why not switch. Someone was moaning about the time it takes to skill, well this will be a good place to spend that time in the Commerce phase.
Yet another me want to go infiltrate my enemi and Sabotage them with deliberate action aimed at weakening my enemi through subversion, obstruction, disruption, and/or destruction meathods. Again while training other skills.
Afterwards just go for Mayhem and carnage with your guildmates
Maybe you want to explore, find the gold, lewt, or other hidden places - open new dungeons hidden by the gamemasters, locate storyline mobs.
I duno, this dream can go on forever and so would the income stream of such an game.
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?])
I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
You should change the thread title though since it is quite misleading.
Happy dreaming.
Planetside. Guild Wars (though it's likely the starting builds aren't 100% competitive.) And the majority of non-MMO multiplayer games.
Games where (a) progression is lateral, or (b) progression isn't really part of the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Planetside. Guild Wars (though it's likely the starting builds aren't 100% competitive.) And the majority of non-MMO multiplayer games.
Games where (a) progression is lateral, or (b) progression isn't really part of the game.
This is off-topic but:
The sample was that the baby toon can play "with" not against fully maxed toon, Anycase to illustrate
In EvE After the toon got out of basic / noob island type of scenario, Toon can team with the big boys and actually contribute. for example. the small toon in the EvE scanario would be in an frigate, fast agile and small, the big guy in an battleship (worse if larger ship is used) cannot reach the frigate with AOE type smartbombs nor will his guns track the orbiting bugger fast enough to hit him, also the blast (damagevalue x damage area) negate much of the blast as the damage explosion will only hit the target over its frontal area therefore most of the hit will blast over/under pass the frigate. However the frigate cant really harm the BS either althow his blastarea is smaller and tracking is fast the blast will hit the battleship full on but his dps is low and easily absorbed / tanked, however in the role as tackler or dpsíng enemy tacklers he is extremely valuable. The main secret is to know your game and setup and know how to play it in the roles you take in battle. If you dont know what you do and get inside AOE range or stand still relative to the enemy - well expect to die plenty times.
It would really be unlogic to try and pitch the small / young / lil against the large except in the CC role and mopping up of the similar sized enemy.
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?])
I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
Your EVE example doesn't sound particularly impressive. Still sounds like the lowbie char has barely any value.
For PVP, I could take a Planetside char and in 10 minutes be killing max-level characters. Some of the best players in the game, even. You just had to engage when your limited weapon choices were at their peak value, and avoid the enemy if they wisely used their superior flexibility to field weaponry you couldn't deal with.
For PVE, I can sidekick to my highbie friend in City of Heroes and be killing enemies 20 levels above me. (although if I'm particularly low I won't have a very good spread of abilities, nor will I have a travel power, and my attacks will do a little less damage than a full-fledged highbie.)
In both cases, the lowbie is at least ~75% as effective as the high level player, which just doesn't seem to be the case in your EVE example (and that's fine. Games with verticle progression are fine; just don't try to pass them off as having lateral progression or being able to play with/against high level players effectively.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
wurm online mofos?
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
I hate it when ignorant players post stupid stuff like this, Had you played for some years like I did you had the right to comment !
Vidi, vici, veni (pronounced ['wi?di? 'wi?ki? 'we?ni?])
I Saw, I Conquered, I Came
People will do anything to argue against Eve online.
Eve is a sandbox, get over it.
Eve does have a lateral progression. Newbs are valuable in pvp against vets in fleets in specific roles.
When CCP releases content its lateral, everyone can access this as there is no endgame to progress to.
In Eve you can do the same shit on year five that you did in your first month if you wanted to.
As for comments on GuildWars,it is extremely good but saying a day 1 player can compete with vets is a lie.
Even if you make a pvp only GW character you will lack skills to compete and those take a bit to grind out.
As for GW pve you need to level to 20 then farm for skills after that you need titles and faction if you want anyone to accept you.
As for the OP I found my perfect sandbox long ago (UO) and continue to play stellar sanbox games like Eve, Ryzom,Wurm and Swg Emu.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I found it! The ultimate sandbox!
My understanding of the game is exactly as ignorant as you make it. Give poor examples, get ignorant posts.
You explicitly explained a situation where a lowbie was incapable of defeating a highbie. That's verticle progression.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver