Not impressed. This will not succeed as a subscription based title. I love smaller teams making good games, but the issue here is not solid games that have been done before, but rather the ones that have not done whats been done before. Clearly Alganon is a generic fantasy mmo that will be so dreadfully average and cartoony, that it wont stand up to any of those who have done the same previously and yet are still successful. In other words, you cant beat WoW at their own game. Just as no diablo clones became more popular or anywhere close to that of the original. If a smaller team wants to be successful, "re-inventing the wheel" is actually the key to success, the issue lay in the difficulty in such a task. I would rather say, Innovation is the key actually. It is that innovation which will be the selling point, compared to generic titles of bigger companies which use an already known franchise to sell their game. Take LOTR for example. Other titles such as Guild Wars was successful because of their innovation, which involved an unheard of business model and backed that up with a style of play (instances) to keep costs low, but done in such a way where it was not bad at all. If any of Alganon's devs end up reading this, which no doubt they will. Do not expect much interest or positive reactions. If innovation, major innovation, isnt there and as part of the selling point, then you have no chance at success....unless you consider a maximum of 50k subs (if you are lucky) a success. I would suggest re-examining that business model as well.
Wrong wrong wrong!. You obvious just glanced at the story, but did not comprehend. I think they are on the right track. Far too many of these games pile on the feature list while doing none of them well. This game has possibilities, they also seem willing to listen to what the players want.
There are so many poorly thought out MMO's out there, it seems nice that someone has looked at what makes games fun and acted on it.
I have been playing Alganon for quite a while now, and though I cannot give out details I would like to say...Very nice! I have played WoW since onset and played AoC up to 3 level 80s and until they made bear shammans more melee than heals. This Alganon is something I feel people are going to want to play! Wish I could say more....
come on folks this is David Allen we're talking about. He'll find a way to drive this thing into the ground yet.
"Horizons" anyone?
I was going to keep my mouth shut about that, but since someone mentioned it, the guy did create Horizons. That can be taken both ways. It can be taken as, "these guys have experience," or "...not another Horizons failure..."
I like the look of it, generally don't care for the cartoony look, but this looks like a definite graphical evolution over WoW. This is also sounds good, their spin on basic systems sounds interesting. Definitely worth keeping a eye on.
After reading the article, I have to say I am considerably more interested in Alganon than I was before. I think the Kudos system sounds promising, although the potential for abuse makes me a bit uneasy.
I think the Families system sounds good, too. But what most caught my eye was this: "Of course, there will also be larger raid content that players expect, although Henry insisted that 95% of the game’s content will be solo-able if the player so chooses." A great many MMO players (myself included) enjoy grouping only occasionally. In most MMOs this means you end up skipping a lot of great content (the instances in WoW, for example). So, basically, in WoW I feel like I am paying a subscription fee for a lot of content (instances, raids, and PvP) that I either do not, cannot, or very seldom play due to the difficult logistics of finding groups that plagues most MMOs. This really irks me. So, I am curious about the proportion of Alganon that is instanced and whether that instanced content is accessible to solo players (via scaling and/or the use of AI). This would be a huge leapfrog past WoW for me, anyway, all other things being roughly equal. I am also curious about the subscription. If Alganon charges a WoW-level subscription price (say, 15$/month), that will be a turnoff for many. But if the subscription fee is lower, I think this, too, will greatly impact the game's success. In any case, I'll be watching this game with interest.
I've stopped believing regular subscription fees should be $15/mo, because these numbers are just arbitrarily put out there and are the "norm," because not enough people have questioned it. Although I will continue to pay these fees as long as I want to play a MMO, I do not see the value in playing a inferior game for the same price as a superior game. If Alganon is $9.99/mo, I'll commit to buying the box when it releases. Otherwise, I have Ulduar, ToC 10man, and Icecrown when that patch releases, to keep me busy until Cataclysm releases at the end of next year.
I have been playing Alganon for quite a while now, and though I cannot give out details I would like to say...Very nice! I have played WoW since onset and played AoC up to 3 level 80s and until they made bear shammans more melee than heals. This Alganon is something I feel people are going to want to play! Wish I could say more....
I have a friend who's been playing Alganon in beta for 5 months, and he said he'll likely not subscribe, so I won't be influenced by this post really.
come on folks this is David Allen we're talking about. He'll find a way to drive this thing into the ground yet.
"Horizons" anyone?
I was going to keep my mouth shut about that, but since someone mentioned it, the guy did create Horizons. That can be taken both ways. It can be taken as, "these guys have experience," or "...not another Horizons failure..."
I wasn't going to dig up ancient history in the article, but just to clear up some things.
David Allen was the original creator of Horizons, but there are two important things to remember. One, the game that eventually launched had virtually nothing in common with the original concept. He'd left long before that. Two, the original concept's biggest failure was that it tried to do too much. A theme of what I saw down there is that they have a very realistic and grounded design and plan. Thus, in that respect, he learned some important lessons there.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Originally posted by Chlerub Although you might be right about the "dont reinvent the wheel" part, there is a major difference between Alganon and all the other P2P MMOs out there. QOL is an independant company, we are only 40 people. We do telework all over the world, connected through a deeply thought out and streamlined collaboration system. We really mean what we say. There is the real prospect of an indie MMO. There is the real prospect of a fun multiplayer game in a persistent world, created by avid MMO players for avid MMO players. Yes we play WoW, yes we played EQ, GW and pretty much every massive online title since the invention of "akkustic kopplers" as we say in germany. We love what we do, we really believe we can provide a game that is entertaining and is more than worth playing. There is passion in this game - passion for games and most of all passion for this specific genre. We put everything we got into this experience, may it be financial and/or private risk. You can say whatever you want, we live in a "mostly" free world. But whatever you say, you cannot change the facts. The team behind Alganon is enthusiastic, dedicated and talented. We do everything it takes to provide the best game and service we could possibly provide. You are looking at a project that is not vaporware, a WoW clone, or anything you might call it. It is unique in its foundation and every single person work on it is motivated over the limits to make it as enjoyable and successfull as imaginable. Marketing slogans are not an indicator for a good or bad game. Most of the time the marketing people have nothing to do with the game development or design at all. You have to make a clear distinction there. Just running around calling every new game a copy of an older one is not leading you anywhere. It mostly reflects what you think about your daily life. You need to start accepting the true nature of things, they evolve over time and eventually lead to an open door to the next iteration of your own reality. You can wake up one morning and believe single player games are your thing. Or you can decide MMORPGs with a fantasy setting are you thing and you crave for something unseen and evolutionary. You may not find it the same day, but you might feel motivated to look for it, or even create it on our own. Chris, QOL Tools Lead Dev
This is good. I really want an indie game to succeed. I want people to learn that you do not have to be Blizzard or have their subscription numbers to be a profitable venture. But, what I want to ask you, personally, as a member of the team making this game: Why would I play this game, that seems exactly like WoW, instead of playing WoW?
Edit:
I wanted to add, along with Nate's post, that I chose WoW because this games seems strikingly similar to that type of game, and that type of game is far and away more popular.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
You're kind of irking me, Dana You forget to mention the whole pvp thing, then the hands on is more like a features list and now you're sort of defending this joker, like he is your cousin or something.
A lot of folks have made good points on this game - What is the price, btw? No way in hell I'm paying $50 +$14 per mo. for a game that hasn't done much new and won't even have PVP until sometime way later.
come on folks this is David Allen we're talking about. He'll find a way to drive this thing into the ground yet.
"Horizons" anyone?
I was going to keep my mouth shut about that, but since someone mentioned it, the guy did create Horizons. That can be taken both ways. It can be taken as, "these guys have experience," or "...not another Horizons failure..."
I wasn't going to dig up ancient history in the article, but just to clear up some things.
David Allen was the original creator of Horizons, but there are two important things to remember. One, the game that eventually launched had virtually nothing in common with the original concept. He'd left long before that. Two, the original concept's biggest failure was that it tried to do too much. A theme of what I saw down there is that they have a very realistic and grounded design and plan. Thus, in that respect, he learned some important lessons there.
That's a good point Dana, and thanks for clarifying that for everyone. It is good that they are starting out small and building on top of that as the game goes on, but I just wish they could of distinguished thier game from the crowd a lot better. As another poster has said, WoW is only 5 years old and Blizzard has already released news of the next expansion. With the average gamer still not even through with Naxx, how does Alganon expect to attract players that are interested in that kind of gameplay, when they are still playing WoW, LoTRO, and the other similar games with class/level/quest based systems? I know there are people who are tired of the games out, and will no doubt try Alganon, but I wouldn't bet my company on enough of them to come to support the game. By creating a game too similar to WoW and other games, they've basically bet that. I agree with others, when they say this game probably doesn't have a prayer as a $15/mo subscription game, but may do better under a different plan. Maybe a pay as you go content plan, like DDO, or a lower subscription fee, such as $9.99/mo.
Personally I like some of what Alganon is trying to do - but hate the other part.
What I like
They are starting small and going to expand. Thats what ALL mmos should do. But then the BOX version of the game should not be charged for and subscription should be lower ? Or even free ? For me its ok to start with subscription but dont charge ppl for a box if 90% of the game is coming later.
Kudos system sounds great. I hate going into a random groups now cause most of the time they dont get half the way - ppl leave for all sorts of reasons or dont know whats up or down of their character. Giving ppl chance to vote on how each member of a group did (0 meaning he left before we finished) sounds like a great way to give ppl indications on what they are in for.
What I hate.
Offline skill system. Eve online did it yes.. That game is a sandbox game created around diffrent values than raiding and simple item gathering. How will raiding content be balanced if ppl can train some abilites/stats offline ? Is it a level playing field for those that start one year after the game launches ? I think this is a very important question for this game since alot of the content is supposed to be added afterwards.
Alternitive way to get things. To me it sounds that even the offline system can get you items. SO.. you can get abilites - stats AND items while offline ? I mean ... why log in at all?
Subscription - and offline skill system ... I stated a topic about how the sub MMOs are now trying to find new ways to "force" ppl to stay subbed if they want to enjoy their game at all. To me a game sold in a box should not be forcing ppl to pay subs with any kinda offline training system. EVE- online has used their subscription system as the ONLY way to maintain their game and build it up. NO expansions from CCP are charged for and thats how it should be if ppl are buidling a game around offline training system. To me - almost every sub based MMO games are going to try to adapt to this system now - Forgetting that they have to create BALANCED content for their players. EVE - ONLINE creates its OWN balance because its a sandbox game. THere are no Eve-online PVE raids - or group runs to finish quests... Still even WOW are gonna try to squeze more money out of ppl by litterally force them to stay subbed - EVEN if ppl are not playing the game at all. And if they do not pay and progress.. then they can't enter raids cause they dont have the abilites / stats to get in.
I was thinking about trying this game out.. but this system made me deside not. PPL are talking about how f2p games are forcing ppl to use item shops and are not giving out lvl playing fields for all players. How the hell can a sub based MMO with offline training system give level playing field for any content in their game ? The answer is simple - they can't. To me these subbased mmos that are also charging ppl money for the BOX and Expansions are taking this to far - showing pure greed in their buisness model.. much more so than what the F2P games are doing.
Although you might be right about the "dont reinvent the wheel" part, there is a major difference between Alganon and all the other P2P MMOs out there. QOL is an independant company, we are only 40 people. We do telework all over the world, connected through a deeply thought out and streamlined collaboration system. We really mean what we say. There is the real prospect of an indie MMO. There is the real prospect of a fun multiplayer game in a persistent world, created by avid MMO players for avid MMO players. Yes we play WoW, yes we played EQ, GW and pretty much every massive online title since the invention of "akkustic kopplers" as we say in germany. We love what we do, we really believe we can provide a game that is entertaining and is more than worth playing. There is passion in this game - passion for games and most of all passion for this specific genre. We put everything we got into this experience, may it be financial and/or private risk. You can say whatever you want, we live in a "mostly" free world. But whatever you say, you cannot change the facts. The team behind Alganon is enthusiastic, dedicated and talented. We do everything it takes to provide the best game and service we could possibly provide. You are looking at a project that is not vaporware, a WoW clone, or anything you might call it. It is unique in its foundation and every single person work on it is motivated over the limits to make it as enjoyable and successfull as imaginable. Marketing slogans are not an indicator for a good or bad game. Most of the time the marketing people have nothing to do with the game development or design at all. You have to make a clear distinction there. Just running around calling every new game a copy of an older one is not leading you anywhere. It mostly reflects what you think about your daily life. You need to start accepting the true nature of things, they evolve over time and eventually lead to an open door to the next iteration of your own reality. You can wake up one morning and believe single player games are your thing. Or you can decide MMORPGs with a fantasy setting are you thing and you crave for something unseen and evolutionary. You may not find it the same day, but you might feel motivated to look for it, or even create it on our own. Chris, QOL Tools Lead Dev
Well, I'm going to try this out when it launches....I like the look, and I like the approach you are taking. I do hope that the content will hold up; I'm a slow player, it takes me a long time to get through what most power gamers absorb in the first month, but so far everything I see here looks like the kind of game I want to play.
Hi everyone, this is Dan, the lead Server developer over at Quest Online. I was really glad to take the time to read this article, and especially all the comments that followed. I felt like saying "I agree" to so many of the postings, good and bad. The fact is, we're a small company that can move in different directions once the game is released. Alganon will be released with a solid foundation for soloing because that is the easiest way to develop a game with a small team of people. We will bring in PvP and more hard-core raid content as the game develops. We're wide open to customer feedback about the development of the game. Our intention is to build a solid foundation of the basics for a fantasy-world MMOG, from scratch, based on the hard work and creativity of the individuals on our team. Hopefully that game will be fun to play. If it is, then people can expect it to develop rapidly into more developed end-game content, because the people on this team are outstanding - there's no bureacracy here, the only thing we suffer from is long work hours and a small team.
At launch, the game will also feature some instanced dungeon crawls, typically found at the end of a chain of quests. One thing Henry emphasized, though, is that they work to make these meaningful. For example, in one quest, they eventually have to kill a kobold master before he raises a dead god.
It turns out though that later, when they enter an area of the world infested with those same kobolds, now in complete chaos. Why is that? You killed their leader earlier on and have since sent them into disarray. It’s just a small touch, but it makes people feel quite important.
This is exactly what is wrong with modern MMO design. "Instances", "chain quests", "phasing".
Whatever happened to the concept of everyone existing in the same world? Why do dev's insist on giving us a drama play script we are "forced" to act out or sit through as a captive audience instead of given us a world?
Regarding the hands-on preview I thought it was a great synopsis of what is currently implemented in the game. As many people love to call any new release a 'WoW clone' I feel that is really a bunch of nonsense. If anything WoW is an EQ or UO clone, they did it first, and WoW simply added/refined what was clearly established before they decided to test the MMO market only 5 years ago. Yes, the graphics do resemble WoW to an extent, but I still see qualities about it that make it unique. I also think their ideas of a 'family' system, offline skill ups via the 'studies' system(as long as it does not completely equate to those that ACTUALLY play the game or it would be quite silly imo), in addition to the 'kudos' system are very intriguing to say the least. One concern I have is regarding their idea of a 'controlled release'. I can certainly understand WHY they want to do such a thing and limit the number of people that can actually sign on as a new paying customer each month for server stability reasons, but honestly I can see MANY people getting upset if they cannot keep up with the number of people ready and willing to pay the money to begin play only to be told it is 'full' for the month. Other than this issue, I for one am looking forward to trying this game, it looks like it will have some very cool and unique ideas implemented and if they can pull it off it could do very well imho.
You know, I really feel bad for these guys. They've obviously put a lot of work and money into developing this game, but when I look at the screenshots and read the preview I just can't but think of this slogan:
"Why reach for the stars when you can reach for a coat hanger?"
If you aim low, you're not going to get very far, and sadly this game has the feel like it aimed low. Yes, WoW was an EQ clone, but the level of polish and player gratification that it brought to the genre was a huge, genre shifting innovation. Where's the innovation here - the classes are WoW classes, the class specifics are just locked in WoW talent pools, the races can be found in various other games. They're going to roll out PvP? That's never been tried before. I bet someone spent 3 weeks making dance animations for the characters.
I wish them all the luck in the world, but when I see all the work that they've done, it's just depresses me. When it comes to making computer games, the motto should be "Innovate or go home."
The team behind Alganon is enthusiastic, dedicated and talented. We do everything it takes to provide the best game and service we could possibly provide. You are looking at a project that is not vaporware, a WoW clone, or anything you might call it. It is unique in its foundation and every single person work on it is motivated over the limits to make it as enjoyable and successfull as imaginable.
Take a good look at what happened to the Chronicles of Spellborn. Their team was enthusiastic, dedicated and talented too. Lack of funding and poor marketing destroyed their game. Don't go that way.
Good points. I wonder if matters would have been different if they hadn't shot themselves in the foot with the first IP bans, and if Acclaim had not dragged its feet for months. I'll always suspect that Acclaim knew about their problems and was just biding its time.
I was all for supporting this game, I like to throw my money behind indies, I like the fact that it uses a sub based model, I liked the promise of a lot of the core systems, and the fact it looks artisically lile WoW dosent bother me, but... 95% soloable? The only real group content being raid orientated? All of a sudden my interest is at 5%.
Vesa, do you remember my misgivings about Spellborn? It had a doomed feeling from the start. Much like the original Horizons or Saga of Ryzom. Dave Allen's original vision for Horizons was MUCH different from what launched, after he was backstabbed by Bowman. That DA has made it back from all of that, is the reason I'm going to give this one a try. That, and the fact that I like solo content ^^ I have neither the time nor patience to waste my play time Looking For Group.
come on folks this is David Allen we're talking about. He'll find a way to drive this thing into the ground yet.
"Horizons" anyone?
Hmmm... You mean Dave Bowman is there to back stab him again?... I suspect that DA learned several lessons from that time. Given his talent and imagination(I remember the original vision for Horizons) I'm glad he made it back. I plan to give this one a try.
You're kind of irking me, Dana You forget to mention the whole pvp thing, then the hands on is more like a features list and now you're sort of defending this joker, like he is your cousin or something. A lot of folks have made good points on this game - What is the price, btw? No way in hell I'm paying $50 +$14 per mo. for a game that hasn't done much new and won't even have PVP until sometime way later.
Given that around 2/3's of the western player base is PvE, lacking PvP to start in a PvE centric game is no problem. MMO PvP has never really impressed me. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3 or Quake4, or Quake Wars.
Its a shame that independent studio decided to make another WOW clone. Its and i am sorry i have to say this : foolish. Huge companies with much larger investment tried them selves at WOW cloning. Mostly because they had to do it, since big investors do not understand originality or taking risk. But most of them failed - not because their games were not good. But because you dont need another WOW.
Independant studio should go on and do what no big studio can - innovate , make something completely different. Its a risk. But its only way they can succed
That said. I wish them all the luck. And i am sure Alganon will be good game for people that have some issue preventing them from playing WOW
Even if parts of the game were very similar to WoW it might end up a much better product in short order because Vivendi sucks up all the money WoW makes and somehow looses most of their good programming talent on a regular basis.
If this game gets 100k subs it will take off like a rocket because the money is going directly to support the game. not some global company with a ton of failing operations.
I'll try it when it comes out and stick around for a while. that is unless it is a complete failure...and from what the reviewer said it shows a lot of promise, so we can scratch that one off the list. I'v been dying for an Indie to make a P2P mmo that isn't complete garbage.
Just to see where the company goes. Hell mabye they get 100k subs and double their staff and release a huge free expansion.
You won't know unless you give em a shot. All not playing it is gonna do is sink a potentialy good company before it even gets a chance to show what they can do.
Release the game Free-to-Play, and keep it forever Free-to-Play, for those zones and races you release at the launch. Add a subscription/upgrade option that will eventually give players the higher level content and additional races as you make them available. You get lots of folks trying it, and people who are reticent to pay for an admittedly 1/4-baked game will feel better about it.
It may require higher numbers of servers, but you'll get a millions of folks playing and talking about the game. If this model can make the developers of a crap game like Runescape $60 million+ per year, there's no reason it won't work for a game that has similair production values to the dreaded MMO whose name we dare not speak.
Free Realms hit 5 million registered users in a few months because it launched for free, and DDO seems to be experiencing an uptick in buzz since announcing players will be able to try it for free and play part of it free forever.
More players = more buzz = more youtube videos = more interest.
If your game is as good as you believe it will be, it will translate into subscribers.
I'm not a WoW hater, but I am a casual player and the sheer size of WoW is daunting. I would rather start playing a game just as it launches - see the community grow and have a role in helping it take shape.
Originally posted by Rabenwolf
Originally posted by Remii718
Originally posted by Rabenwolf
If any of Alganon's devs end up reading this, which no doubt they will. Do not expect much interest or positive reactions. If innovation, major innovation, isnt there and as part of the selling point, then you have no chance at success....unless you consider a maximum of 50k subs (if you are lucky) a success. I would suggest re-examining that business model as well.
As a small dev team I'm sure those guys would be happy with 25-50k subs.
Not every game needs 300k+ subs to be a success. As long as the game is fun people will play it, it doesn't need a load of innovative features.
That can be true if you do not include the investors as part of the equation. The money invested in the project doesnt come from no where, investors get on board. All investors want the best return possible with their investments. A development company equally will be limited by the success of a game. Take WoW for example. Prior to WoW Blizzard had a much smaller number of staff, a smaller building...ect With WoW's huge success, the greater numbers and profit, allowed for Blizzard to beef up their staff significantly, hire the best of the best, and actually have their own building built, which is now Blizzard HQ. All this requires millions of dollars, none of it would have been possible if their product was just scraping by.
Furthermore, no doubt the goal of this games developers as well as investors, is to reap as much rewards as possible, which in turn go into building upon the title as well as the company and even worth of the developers themselves.
But different investors have different definitions of "best." Some go for highest return, others go for secured return. Each has benefits and drawbacks. To get a high return, you usually have to face a high risk of loss. If you're going for a more guaranteed return, it likely won't be as high as something that involved more risk.
Pick a service or consumer-goods industry and you'll see a variety of business sizes and models. For all the Starbucks and Krispy Kremes out there, there's also a bunch of smaller independent coffee shops and donut shops that are doing just fine by their owners' standards. Or clothing - how about you try being innovative with a shirt. There's something to be said for doing one thing and doing it well. Just a few examples.
It may not be your ideal business model, but that doesn't make it any less valid.
------------- The less you expect, the more you'll be surprised. Hopefully, pleasantly so.
Comments
Wrong wrong wrong!. You obvious just glanced at the story, but did not comprehend. I think they are on the right track. Far too many of these games pile on the feature list while doing none of them well. This game has possibilities, they also seem willing to listen to what the players want.
There are so many poorly thought out MMO's out there, it seems nice that someone has looked at what makes games fun and acted on it.
I am very tempted to give this game a try.
I have been playing Alganon for quite a while now, and though I cannot give out details I would like to say...Very nice! I have played WoW since onset and played AoC up to 3 level 80s and until they made bear shammans more melee than heals. This Alganon is something I feel people are going to want to play! Wish I could say more....
There can be only one!
I was going to keep my mouth shut about that, but since someone mentioned it, the guy did create Horizons. That can be taken both ways. It can be taken as, "these guys have experience," or "...not another Horizons failure..."
I like the look of it, generally don't care for the cartoony look, but this looks like a definite graphical evolution over WoW. This is also sounds good, their spin on basic systems sounds interesting. Definitely worth keeping a eye on.
I've stopped believing regular subscription fees should be $15/mo, because these numbers are just arbitrarily put out there and are the "norm," because not enough people have questioned it. Although I will continue to pay these fees as long as I want to play a MMO, I do not see the value in playing a inferior game for the same price as a superior game. If Alganon is $9.99/mo, I'll commit to buying the box when it releases. Otherwise, I have Ulduar, ToC 10man, and Icecrown when that patch releases, to keep me busy until Cataclysm releases at the end of next year.
I have a friend who's been playing Alganon in beta for 5 months, and he said he'll likely not subscribe, so I won't be influenced by this post really.
I was going to keep my mouth shut about that, but since someone mentioned it, the guy did create Horizons. That can be taken both ways. It can be taken as, "these guys have experience," or "...not another Horizons failure..."
I wasn't going to dig up ancient history in the article, but just to clear up some things.
David Allen was the original creator of Horizons, but there are two important things to remember. One, the game that eventually launched had virtually nothing in common with the original concept. He'd left long before that. Two, the original concept's biggest failure was that it tried to do too much. A theme of what I saw down there is that they have a very realistic and grounded design and plan. Thus, in that respect, he learned some important lessons there.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
This is good. I really want an indie game to succeed. I want people to learn that you do not have to be Blizzard or have their subscription numbers to be a profitable venture. But, what I want to ask you, personally, as a member of the team making this game: Why would I play this game, that seems exactly like WoW, instead of playing WoW?
Edit:
I wanted to add, along with Nate's post, that I chose WoW because this games seems strikingly similar to that type of game, and that type of game is far and away more popular.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
You're kind of irking me, Dana You forget to mention the whole pvp thing, then the hands on is more like a features list and now you're sort of defending this joker, like he is your cousin or something.
A lot of folks have made good points on this game - What is the price, btw? No way in hell I'm paying $50 +$14 per mo. for a game that hasn't done much new and won't even have PVP until sometime way later.
I was going to keep my mouth shut about that, but since someone mentioned it, the guy did create Horizons. That can be taken both ways. It can be taken as, "these guys have experience," or "...not another Horizons failure..."
I wasn't going to dig up ancient history in the article, but just to clear up some things.
David Allen was the original creator of Horizons, but there are two important things to remember. One, the game that eventually launched had virtually nothing in common with the original concept. He'd left long before that. Two, the original concept's biggest failure was that it tried to do too much. A theme of what I saw down there is that they have a very realistic and grounded design and plan. Thus, in that respect, he learned some important lessons there.
That's a good point Dana, and thanks for clarifying that for everyone. It is good that they are starting out small and building on top of that as the game goes on, but I just wish they could of distinguished thier game from the crowd a lot better. As another poster has said, WoW is only 5 years old and Blizzard has already released news of the next expansion. With the average gamer still not even through with Naxx, how does Alganon expect to attract players that are interested in that kind of gameplay, when they are still playing WoW, LoTRO, and the other similar games with class/level/quest based systems? I know there are people who are tired of the games out, and will no doubt try Alganon, but I wouldn't bet my company on enough of them to come to support the game. By creating a game too similar to WoW and other games, they've basically bet that. I agree with others, when they say this game probably doesn't have a prayer as a $15/mo subscription game, but may do better under a different plan. Maybe a pay as you go content plan, like DDO, or a lower subscription fee, such as $9.99/mo.
Personally I like some of what Alganon is trying to do - but hate the other part.
What I like
They are starting small and going to expand. Thats what ALL mmos should do. But then the BOX version of the game should not be charged for and subscription should be lower ? Or even free ? For me its ok to start with subscription but dont charge ppl for a box if 90% of the game is coming later.
Kudos system sounds great. I hate going into a random groups now cause most of the time they dont get half the way - ppl leave for all sorts of reasons or dont know whats up or down of their character. Giving ppl chance to vote on how each member of a group did (0 meaning he left before we finished) sounds like a great way to give ppl indications on what they are in for.
What I hate.
Offline skill system. Eve online did it yes.. That game is a sandbox game created around diffrent values than raiding and simple item gathering. How will raiding content be balanced if ppl can train some abilites/stats offline ? Is it a level playing field for those that start one year after the game launches ? I think this is a very important question for this game since alot of the content is supposed to be added afterwards.
Alternitive way to get things. To me it sounds that even the offline system can get you items. SO.. you can get abilites - stats AND items while offline ? I mean ... why log in at all?
Subscription - and offline skill system ... I stated a topic about how the sub MMOs are now trying to find new ways to "force" ppl to stay subbed if they want to enjoy their game at all. To me a game sold in a box should not be forcing ppl to pay subs with any kinda offline training system. EVE- online has used their subscription system as the ONLY way to maintain their game and build it up. NO expansions from CCP are charged for and thats how it should be if ppl are buidling a game around offline training system. To me - almost every sub based MMO games are going to try to adapt to this system now - Forgetting that they have to create BALANCED content for their players. EVE - ONLINE creates its OWN balance because its a sandbox game. THere are no Eve-online PVE raids - or group runs to finish quests... Still even WOW are gonna try to squeze more money out of ppl by litterally force them to stay subbed - EVEN if ppl are not playing the game at all. And if they do not pay and progress.. then they can't enter raids cause they dont have the abilites / stats to get in.
You can read my post about this issue here.
www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/249806/The-sub-MMOs-are-fighting-back-.html
I was thinking about trying this game out.. but this system made me deside not. PPL are talking about how f2p games are forcing ppl to use item shops and are not giving out lvl playing fields for all players. How the hell can a sub based MMO with offline training system give level playing field for any content in their game ? The answer is simple - they can't. To me these subbased mmos that are also charging ppl money for the BOX and Expansions are taking this to far - showing pure greed in their buisness model.. much more so than what the F2P games are doing.
Alganon ? No thx.
Well, I'm going to try this out when it launches....I like the look, and I like the approach you are taking. I do hope that the content will hold up; I'm a slow player, it takes me a long time to get through what most power gamers absorb in the first month, but so far everything I see here looks like the kind of game I want to play.
Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)
Had they done this in any other setting outside of fantasy I might have tried it out. So sick of the sword and sorcery style of play.
Other than that, if they go with a subscr and online download 25% of a boxed version cost, they may be able to keep the game going.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Hi everyone, this is Dan, the lead Server developer over at Quest Online. I was really glad to take the time to read this article, and especially all the comments that followed. I felt like saying "I agree" to so many of the postings, good and bad. The fact is, we're a small company that can move in different directions once the game is released. Alganon will be released with a solid foundation for soloing because that is the easiest way to develop a game with a small team of people. We will bring in PvP and more hard-core raid content as the game develops. We're wide open to customer feedback about the development of the game. Our intention is to build a solid foundation of the basics for a fantasy-world MMOG, from scratch, based on the hard work and creativity of the individuals on our team. Hopefully that game will be fun to play. If it is, then people can expect it to develop rapidly into more developed end-game content, because the people on this team are outstanding - there's no bureacracy here, the only thing we suffer from is long work hours and a small team.
At launch, the game will also feature some instanced dungeon crawls, typically found at the end of a chain of quests. One thing Henry emphasized, though, is that they work to make these meaningful. For example, in one quest, they eventually have to kill a kobold master before he raises a dead god.
It turns out though that later, when they enter an area of the world infested with those same kobolds, now in complete chaos. Why is that? You killed their leader earlier on and have since sent them into disarray. It’s just a small touch, but it makes people feel quite important.
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No.
No.
No.
This is exactly what is wrong with modern MMO design. "Instances", "chain quests", "phasing".
Whatever happened to the concept of everyone existing in the same world? Why do dev's insist on giving us a drama play script we are "forced" to act out or sit through as a captive audience instead of given us a world?
Hello all,
Regarding the hands-on preview I thought it was a great synopsis of what is currently implemented in the game. As many people love to call any new release a 'WoW clone' I feel that is really a bunch of nonsense. If anything WoW is an EQ or UO clone, they did it first, and WoW simply added/refined what was clearly established before they decided to test the MMO market only 5 years ago. Yes, the graphics do resemble WoW to an extent, but I still see qualities about it that make it unique. I also think their ideas of a 'family' system, offline skill ups via the 'studies' system(as long as it does not completely equate to those that ACTUALLY play the game or it would be quite silly imo), in addition to the 'kudos' system are very intriguing to say the least. One concern I have is regarding their idea of a 'controlled release'. I can certainly understand WHY they want to do such a thing and limit the number of people that can actually sign on as a new paying customer each month for server stability reasons, but honestly I can see MANY people getting upset if they cannot keep up with the number of people ready and willing to pay the money to begin play only to be told it is 'full' for the month. Other than this issue, I for one am looking forward to trying this game, it looks like it will have some very cool and unique ideas implemented and if they can pull it off it could do very well imho.
-Tashani
You know, I really feel bad for these guys. They've obviously put a lot of work and money into developing this game, but when I look at the screenshots and read the preview I just can't but think of this slogan:
"Why reach for the stars when you can reach for a coat hanger?"
If you aim low, you're not going to get very far, and sadly this game has the feel like it aimed low. Yes, WoW was an EQ clone, but the level of polish and player gratification that it brought to the genre was a huge, genre shifting innovation. Where's the innovation here - the classes are WoW classes, the class specifics are just locked in WoW talent pools, the races can be found in various other games. They're going to roll out PvP? That's never been tried before. I bet someone spent 3 weeks making dance animations for the characters.
I wish them all the luck in the world, but when I see all the work that they've done, it's just depresses me. When it comes to making computer games, the motto should be "Innovate or go home."
Take a good look at what happened to the Chronicles of Spellborn. Their team was enthusiastic, dedicated and talented too. Lack of funding and poor marketing destroyed their game. Don't go that way.
Good points. I wonder if matters would have been different if they hadn't shot themselves in the foot with the first IP bans, and if Acclaim had not dragged its feet for months. I'll always suspect that Acclaim knew about their problems and was just biding its time.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/388/feature/3477/Alganon-Behind-The-Scenes-At-Quest-Online.html
The promised follow up.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Vesa, do you remember my misgivings about Spellborn? It had a doomed feeling from the start. Much like the original Horizons or Saga of Ryzom. Dave Allen's original vision for Horizons was MUCH different from what launched, after he was backstabbed by Bowman. That DA has made it back from all of that, is the reason I'm going to give this one a try. That, and the fact that I like solo content ^^ I have neither the time nor patience to waste my play time Looking For Group.
Hmmm... You mean Dave Bowman is there to back stab him again?... I suspect that DA learned several lessons from that time. Given his talent and imagination(I remember the original vision for Horizons) I'm glad he made it back. I plan to give this one a try.
Given that around 2/3's of the western player base is PvE, lacking PvP to start in a PvE centric game is no problem. MMO PvP has never really impressed me. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3 or Quake4, or Quake Wars.
Even if parts of the game were very similar to WoW it might end up a much better product in short order because Vivendi sucks up all the money WoW makes and somehow looses most of their good programming talent on a regular basis.
If this game gets 100k subs it will take off like a rocket because the money is going directly to support the game. not some global company with a ton of failing operations.
I'll try it when it comes out and stick around for a while. that is unless it is a complete failure...and from what the reviewer said it shows a lot of promise, so we can scratch that one off the list. I'v been dying for an Indie to make a P2P mmo that isn't complete garbage.
Just to see where the company goes. Hell mabye they get 100k subs and double their staff and release a huge free expansion.
You won't know unless you give em a shot. All not playing it is gonna do is sink a potentialy good company before it even gets a chance to show what they can do.
To the makers of Alganon, consider this:
Release the game Free-to-Play, and keep it forever Free-to-Play, for those zones and races you release at the launch. Add a subscription/upgrade option that will eventually give players the higher level content and additional races as you make them available. You get lots of folks trying it, and people who are reticent to pay for an admittedly 1/4-baked game will feel better about it.
It may require higher numbers of servers, but you'll get a millions of folks playing and talking about the game. If this model can make the developers of a crap game like Runescape $60 million+ per year, there's no reason it won't work for a game that has similair production values to the dreaded MMO whose name we dare not speak.
Free Realms hit 5 million registered users in a few months because it launched for free, and DDO seems to be experiencing an uptick in buzz since announcing players will be able to try it for free and play part of it free forever.
More players = more buzz = more youtube videos = more interest.
If your game is as good as you believe it will be, it will translate into subscribers.
I'm intrigued enough to try a demo.
I'm not a WoW hater, but I am a casual player and the sheer size of WoW is daunting. I would rather start playing a game just as it launches - see the community grow and have a role in helping it take shape.
As a small dev team I'm sure those guys would be happy with 25-50k subs.
Not every game needs 300k+ subs to be a success. As long as the game is fun people will play it, it doesn't need a load of innovative features.
That can be true if you do not include the investors as part of the equation. The money invested in the project doesnt come from no where, investors get on board. All investors want the best return possible with their investments. A development company equally will be limited by the success of a game. Take WoW for example. Prior to WoW Blizzard had a much smaller number of staff, a smaller building...ect With WoW's huge success, the greater numbers and profit, allowed for Blizzard to beef up their staff significantly, hire the best of the best, and actually have their own building built, which is now Blizzard HQ. All this requires millions of dollars, none of it would have been possible if their product was just scraping by.
Furthermore, no doubt the goal of this games developers as well as investors, is to reap as much rewards as possible, which in turn go into building upon the title as well as the company and even worth of the developers themselves.
But different investors have different definitions of "best." Some go for highest return, others go for secured return. Each has benefits and drawbacks. To get a high return, you usually have to face a high risk of loss. If you're going for a more guaranteed return, it likely won't be as high as something that involved more risk.
Pick a service or consumer-goods industry and you'll see a variety of business sizes and models. For all the Starbucks and Krispy Kremes out there, there's also a bunch of smaller independent coffee shops and donut shops that are doing just fine by their owners' standards. Or clothing - how about you try being innovative with a shirt. There's something to be said for doing one thing and doing it well. Just a few examples.
It may not be your ideal business model, but that doesn't make it any less valid.
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The less you expect, the more you'll be surprised. Hopefully, pleasantly so.