Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Cryptic already offering refunds.
Matthean
Member Posts: 2
Let's start with what has been roughly the last week.
- Saying you have a limited amount of 6 month and lifetime subs, having your payment plan go down, and then when it goes back up saying you are out of stock on those subs. Cryptic later had to open up the offer again.
- Introducing a largely unpopular exp nerf on the last day of closed beta that goes undocumented and the first response from Cryptic is buried in a thread. Cryptic later had to readjust the nerf.
- Putting out a mass game wide nerf on the day of release.
- Said nerf was untested by the player base because there was no Test server and they didn't try to test this on the beta server. There is a Test server now.
- Said nerf is, again, poorly documented and no specifics are given out as to what changed.
Why?
"Guys, the way patch notes work is we write down the changes we made and those get posted to you. In this case, we tweaked some numbers in the base spreadsheets that drive the game, to fix the OP issue with defensive passives. This cascades out to a lot of other numbers in the game, hence the changes you are seeing, but it isn't like Balseraph has the exact numbers for every power that changed visible to him to cut and paste into patch notes. We're not trying to hide anything, this is just how a change like this works. Yes, we missed a few patch notes that we meant to post as well, we're sorry about that, but we try really hard to give you real info, as much of it as we can."
Because they literally can't tell you what changed in their own game without extensive research. I'm too lazy to find the quote, but one person from Cryptic even mentioned that they didn't change a specific number for something, but just changed a setting like "tough" on something. Said nerf also lead to a number of stealth nerfs. This type of issue has already been gone through with CoH. In other words, Cryptic didn't learn from their previous mistakes.
- Bill Roper uses a poor analogy on how they do nerfs.
"Whenever you do testing and you make changes, you tend to swing the wheel far over for course corrections. I think that’s one thing that a lot of people don’t realize is that you have to do that. People will ask, “why not make just little changes?” If you think about sailing a ship it’s kind of like you’re going really far to starboard, so you need to swing the wheel hard to port to make a big course correction. Then you can say, OK we went too far, let’s move it back over."
This comes across as saying, "We don't have an actual target, so we are going to do this by feel."
- Jack also recently admitted that a year a go Cryptic themselves found the game unfun and spent the vast majority of the time just fixing that aspect of the game. This meant instead of putting in content and polishing the game, which many are saying is lacking in content and polish, and giving themselves a content buffer, Cryptic now has to play catch up, see zombie invasion that adds a new power set.
All of which has lead to people asking for refunds. Original thread got nuked, but there currently is another thread up dealing with the same topic. forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php
Refunds on a game that's been out for two days and the lead guy is Bill Roper. You aren't getting rid of that smell. Many are getting the feeling CO is becoming Cryptic's redheaded step child after they got STO. You know, just like COH players felt like after Cryptic got MUO.
EDIT: Said nerf also lead Cryptic to rework the respec system and even that looks to be an annoyance for the players as well.
P.S. Refunds are on the 6 month and lifetime subs.
Comments
We go through this with every release. I am not surprised people are asking for refunds.
This is not just MMOs either. With every highly anticipated title you get a group of people returning to the store the same day demanding a refund. Unfortunately for many of these people they don't have anyone to yell at (seeing as how they purchased directly from Cryptic), so they rant on their forum.
It means nothing, the nerf means nothing, and I think in the grand scheme of things CO's success or failure will be affected very little by it.
Although I agree an untested launch day patch is a stupid move, to me this is just another case of launch day drama. If you quit a lifetime sub based on what happens on day 1, what exactly did you interpret 'lifetime' to mean?
Cryptic is doing the right thing by offering refunds to those who want them, but I just wonder what people will do a month from now (or longer) if they don't like a patch. Are they going to ask for a refund on their lifetime sub then?
I agree with you, people can be so quick to judgments, I wouldn't be surprised if many decide to cancel their lifetime subs few weeks into the game just because they get tired or get sick of something. I thought that the lifetime sub was a bad idea in the first place anyways, so its "nice" that there's a refund for it...but I'm sure that's going to hurt Cryptic in the later times...
http://hushwolf.mybrute.com
In all honesty its pretty amazing that they're actually letting people ask.. and actually giving them their money back. Most games wouldn't.... these people paid for the lifetime sub thinking it was some sort of great deal.. doing it sight unseen. If I were cryptic I would've kept the money as a stupid tax. If you weren't sure if you were gunna stick it out with the ebon flow of the MMO in the first place, why would you ever think buying a lifetime sub is a good idea?
Anyways.. cryptic over compensates on their changes... did it in CB... don't see launch being any different. I guess its a bold move to say "HEY GUYS we're WORKING on this" in a loud obnoxious way so that everyone is aware of it. The good news is, they actually do get things done pretty quickly after they screw it up.... so... thats something I guess. Bad News.... they shoulda done this in CB like we were asking them to do.
I think the problem is that with more and more people testing games now a days, the beta is losing its meaning. People see it as a way to figure out the game to have the edge on release and they forget that game altering changes might be made at any time.
I think the other problem is Cryptic should have given players a chance to play the game before purchasing a lifetime subscription. It was wrong of them to make people choose to make a blind purchase or miss out.
Wow, what a drama post.
I'll go back to playing Champions now, since the game itself is quite fun.
OP if you feel it's more fun to get bent out of shape about trite nonsense, continue having fun in your own way. (although 1-Postcount Drama Thread Starters often don't post again after their first rant.)
My only big complaints of CO are:
Honestly I see all these complaints about passive defenses, then use them myself to beat the living snot out of mobs 1-2 levels above me, and can't quite see what people are complaining about.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I dont see what the problem is tbh I have a lifetime sub and am very happy with the game even after this patch everyone is freaking out about.
I am able to solo Telios tower (elite aka tough) mobs np with all the mobs orange/red to me killing 2 groups at a time.
Frankly I think the big problem that is going on is that most mmo players these days are not gamers, they think they are gamers and they strut around and talk big and all that but when it comes down to playing a game, figuring out the game mechanics, build a good avatar, and coming up with a working stategy, well lets just say these " players " have no clue.
I knew when gaming stopped being geek we were doomed, all these casual gamers are ruining gaming.
Casual gamers think they have the right to be level capped and have the best gear/skills any game has to offer just for paying a monthly subscription. It doesnt matter to them if they only log on 1 hour a night three nights a week, they should have exactly the same stuff that the guy playing 6-8 hours a day seven days a week has.
Casual gamers are generally idiots or are too lazy to bother exercising their brains so want every game easy enough a three year old can play it but with the illusion its difficult as to make them feel like geniuses so they can pat each other on the back and brag about how cool and smart they are.
Frankly Im getting fed up, and if champions takes more effort and brain power then you are capable of, then go back to WoW and play with all the other gamer wannabes.
And Im truly sorry if this offends you, but if it offends you then you are probably one of the casual gamers Im talking about.
I played CO in the open beta and honestly thought it was one of the easiest games I have ever played. I solo'd many mobs at once, way more than I ever had in any other MMO. A nerf was in need and to me, it seems as though the crowd this game attracted is not at all intense, thereby making me not want to play because of its fail and newb qualities.
The only people that are still happy with the game since the patch are people that still have builds with Powers that are still OP (like heavy AoE builds).
I have both a Force / Elec char and a Force / PA char and my gf has a Force / Ice build and all three our toons are broken and no fun to play atm.
We are getting steamrolled with even con hencemen on SOLO missions. Simply because our passive defense powers have been nerfed into oblivion and are no longer working! So it's like we have No-Defense at all!
Developer reaction: Everything works as intended, we keep monitoring over the coming months and adjust as nessessary.
If you have a lifetime sub, I guess waiting a couple months is less of a deal.
But me and my gf bought each a 6-month sub deal!! And we are not going to wait and sit around for 3-4 months just to see people mass quiting within the first month and Cryptic finally fixing stuff after a couple months on what they broke with a single patch!!
So yes. Both my gf and me asked for a refund. And maybe in a couple months, when they start offering free trials. We might come back and have a look if things have changed for the better.
But frankly, seeing they make the EXACT same FAIL mistakes as they did with CoH back in 2004. I hardly doubt things will change.
Right now, the game is just like WAR. It's now all about massive AoE and CC. /puke
Edit: Re: Sorrow
Actually, I think a lot of the negative reactions and refunds have to do with customers losing faith in Cryptic as an MMO developer. That may seem harsh, but sweeping nerfs on launch day without play testing, and multiple failed attempts to patch a fundamental system (respecs, aka retcons) don't inspire confidence.
It also doesn't inspire confidence when a developer explains that the patch notes weren't complete because the numbers that were tweaked to fix overpowered abilities had a trickle-down effect on a lot of other abilities. That begs the question. Does anybody know what all the numbers do?
Its a new MMO, if you buy it at launch you are in a extended beta. This won't stop while MMO companies think they can get away with it. You, as the buyer are supporting the release of MMO's which still need a few months of polishing.
Instead of getting angry with the company get angry with the industry, I do not buy a MMO now for at least two months after launch, read the reviews not the previews.
EXACTLY! The devs have no idea how their own game works! Hilarious, when I read those dev reactions!
The most frustrating thing is, that they put up a Test Server the same day!
They should have put that patch on the Test Server instead, and then let it be tested by the playerbase. Tweak stuff and fix stuff that patch horribly broke and then roll it on the Live server this weekend or just shortly after.
But instead, they slammed it UNTESTED straight on the LIVE server on Launch day! Pure FAIL!
It was just with the XP nerf at the end of Open Beta (wich is now causing content gaps all over the place and force people into mindless grinding on several stages during the leveling process).
It seems that Cryptic is filled with PANIC. And completley lost common sense.
That patch from last Tuesday was purely done, because a handful Powergaming nerds rolled Uber Power builds and rushed through the content and managed to get to level40.
While everyone with more then 1 braincell knows, that these people do it in EVERY MMO launch! Nothing new.
So instead, Cryptic hit the PANIC button with this idiotic patch and screwed over the majority of the playerbase, who just want to have fun and have no interest to zerg through the content.
Just pure FAIL. And such a shame, how they ruined a game with this one patch, that was so fun during Open Beta and Headstart and had good reviews by the community!
Doesn't offend me as I am far from 'casual' in my gaming. However, I think you're ignoring the other side of the equation. Those casual gamers are willing to pay for seemingly anything with solo capability. Doesn't matter if it's challenging or grindy or anything, as long as they can solo it, they're happy. They're the low hanging fruit of the audience so you have to expect game developers to find ways to take their money. Their numbers are far larger than any other segment of the gaming populace. So if you get 10% of them, it could be worth more than 250% of the so-called "hardcore" gamers.
Everybody wants to do World of Warcraft numbers, whether they admit it or not. You'd do the same thing in their position, especially if the difference between you driving a Lamborghini Quattroporte you paid in full for and driving a 10 year old Nissan Sentra, is attracting a good number of those players. Easy to sit on the outside and throw stones. You make similar compromises every day in your real life. Why do you expect others to somehow be above that?
The main problem I have with CO's issues right now is that it goes against what they sold the game as. Yes, I have a lifetime sub and I don't want a refund since, being somewhat of a veteran of MMOs (if you call playing Meridian59 at launch a 'veteran'), I don't expect the game to 'hit its stride' so to speak until next year around this time. By then, I'll be largely playing for free. But folks who made concept builds based more around 'what fits this character's background' rather than 'what's most effective in the game', are hosed now. This game was promoted as being somewhat of the anti-establishment MMO. No classes, every character is powerful, build your character the way YOU see fit and thrive, etc. All of that is BS and I think Cryptic knew it all along. If that's the case, then the game is a fraud. I don't like fraud, though I still like the game. The game model they presented in open beta and the headstart is not the game that exists today. So yeah, I think they should refund those people who bought the game they played last week (and last weekend) but feel ripped off now.
Sometimes I feel like MMO players are like really excited pastors reading from revelation, they all think the end times are happening now. The game has been released for a day. Give them some time and a break.
As for me, I love the game and I don't really feel like I am experiencing a lot of the complaints that are being made. But that's just me and I enjoy it so I'll keep paying.
I deliberately didn't play in beta or headstart so I could get a fresh approach to the game when it was released, and so far I am having a lot of fun. I'm not sure what all the chaos is about in the forums, but I believe Cryptic will continue to address the issues that still exist in the game. It's a new game and some changes are inevitable.
Champions Online has one whiney community... seems to me you didn't even give the game a chance or like it, and just looking for reasons to hate it.
I never understood why some people pay lots for subsciption (lifetime and 6months) when the game has only just been released... did no one learn from Hellgate:London?
Wait, wasn't that also run by someone with the initials B.R.?
Will Champions run on this machine?
CPU 2.0-GHz Intel Core 2 Duo T5800
RAM Included 4GB
Hard Drive Size 320GB
Graphics Card Nvidia GeForce 9600M GS
Video Memory 512MB
Operating System MS Windows Vista Home Premium (64 bit)
Thanks
I don't want to bash people, because some of the complaints may be real, but this is my opinion too. I read the forums the day before launch and it was nonstop complaints about overpowered defense builds and everything was too easy. They made the changes on launch day and in many cases the same people immediately switched to complaining about how they were getting killed now and things were nerfed too hard. I guess that's all part of one of my rules of MMOs - you can't make everyone happy.
I've got a better rig than that and I only get 30 odd FPS so if you do play don't expect a high frame rate but it will be playable. I've also heard from friends of mine that it's basically a slide show on their PCs. It could be a Windows 7 thing but I really doubt it because the game was made to run on it.
I don't want to bash people, because some of the complaints may be real, but this is my opinion too. I read the forums the day before launch and it was nonstop complaints about overpowered defense builds and everything was too easy. They made the changes on launch day and in many cases the same people immediately switched to complaining about how they were getting killed now and things were nerfed too hard. I guess that's all part of one of my rules of MMOs - you can't make everyone happy.
Problem is it's the same people complaining and in their head they want to be hardcore and for everything to be hard. However when it actually happens like with SWG then they all start to moan about it being too hard and how they have to group or wahtever. It's like hang on a sec this is what you asked for...
I don't want to bash people, because some of the complaints may be real, but this is my opinion too. I read the forums the day before launch and it was nonstop complaints about overpowered defense builds and everything was too easy. They made the changes on launch day and in many cases the same people immediately switched to complaining about how they were getting killed now and things were nerfed too hard. I guess that's all part of one of my rules of MMOs - you can't make everyone happy.
Problem is it's the same people complaining and in their head they want to be hardcore and for everything to be hard. However when it actually happens like with SWG then they all start to moan about it being too hard and how they have to group or wahtever. It's like hang on a sec this is what you asked for...
No one asked for this!!
There were just a handful nerds that created some min/max builds and plowed through the content during headstart, reached level40 and were bragging about it on the forums. Just like they do in EVERY MMO Launch!!
We all knew that some defense powers were a tad OP and needed to be toned down a bit. A BIT!!!! Not being obliterated with a sledgehammer!
Add to that, that they also crippled a lot of Offense powers and increased mob damage significantly!
That's how they completely ruined the game with just this one patch!!
The only people that still have fun, are running around with Cookie Cutter builds (mostly with heavy AoE in it) that escaped last Tuesday's SledgeHammer!
But no worry.... your powers won't escape the sledgehammer either. It will come sooner then later. And then everyone is GIMPED. lol.
Maybe because some people are trying to take on even level mobs and are getting killed. The changes nerfed a lot of things even including things it shouldn't have. Other stuff was vastly left alone and people have even pointed out how you can still go beyond what Cryptic intended if you build your character right. Yes, a number of people don't find it bad, or are vastly oblivious to the changes.
Point is, they are offering refunds a mere day after launch on 6 month and lifetime subscriptions. This is not normal. You could consider those opened software and I know how hard it is to return those considering where I work. Even if Cryptic is doing their best to fix things, they are continuing to shoot themselves in the foot. Defense and regen being over powered, and code that's tricky to get the numbers from? All of those things were issues with CoH as well and yet Cryptic simply went out and repeated their mistakes. Also note many people saw the nerfs coming, but thought Cryptic would of handled the situation vastly better than this. Again, this is a virtual repeat of Cryptic handling i5 in CoH in regards to wide sweeping highly unfavorable changes that also had documentation issues. Really, if people think it's just the fact that nerfs happen, they are missing the point.
I'm struck by not knowing quite how to respond to this.
Refunds are good. Refunds are rare. Cryptic is allowing refunds! And according to you, somehow that's bad enough to be one of the major points you're trying to get across.
Launch day balance is bad. This is predictable in any game with aysmmetrical sides.
But even as I say this I have chars like my TF2 Engineer look-alike where I made power choices because of looks and the char not only turned out alright, he's my most effective one!
Documentation is something they should work on, but really it's not a huge deal.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Wow a MMO got nerfed during OB/Release and now like 20-25 people on a forum are bitching they want their money back out of how many thousands of pre-orders sold? That almost sounds like... Every other MMO launch I've ever heard of or been a part of. The only difference is most of those other MMO launches the customers complaining were told by the MMO company to go pound sand. At least Cryptic is giving some refunds which puts them above almost every other MMO company in existence. If this had of been SOE, Mythic, NCSoft, Blizzard or any other MMO company you would have been told "tough luck" if you were told anything at all.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}