Oh my god!!! O.O so...beautiful...i just registered for this game and am going to play it...just because it looks so good!
Darned right, and that's all remodeled and textured and overall, redone from a very old, crappy looking engine.
That gameplay is fun, but you can't do much without sinking real money into the game, or A LOT of time. It's somewhat hard to explain, I would look over the site.
____________________________ Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online --- == RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP == --- Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online --- Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth ____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys. IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.
I didn't even BOTHER to re-post the rest of your rant, because it's just so ridiculous. You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.
If you want to BLAME someone...blame all the gamers that LOVE WoW. Blame EVERYONE that ever played WoW....because all of those people are what made WoW successful. Apparently WoW had (and may still have) something that a LOT of people like. Just because SOME don't like it, does not take away from the millions that DO like it. And for this....you blame Blizzard for making a game that did all the things everyone apparently wanted and many STILL want?
LOL
The GREED of other game developers MIGHT be at fault. The gamers that enjoyed the game in the past and present MIGHT be at fault. But WoW ITSELF is not to be faulted for anything, in my opinion. All Blizzard did is give people what they APPARENTLY wanted. And that....is good business, whether you LIKE it, or approve of it, or not.
The only reason wow is the highest on your list is because you never played Eve. Lets see here, Eve Great Economy Great Missions Tactical PvP And thats just the surface Wow... decent pvp good raiding, it has its fun moments but really theres not much more to it.
so you cant say WoW vs all mmo's when u havnt even played eve... my 2 isk
I've played EVE. The "problem" with EVE, is that it's not going to suit everyone's taste. I played it long enough to make millions of isk and have finally gotten my HULK. But to be entirely honest.....I found it EVERY BIT as boring as any other MMO eventually. Now, that MIGHT be because I'm not a big PvP maniac. I suppose if I was out in 0.0 space getting blown to bits by people with far better ships than me it would be more fun? I don't think so, but I can see where some might.
In short....just because YOU think EVE is better than WoW, EQ2, or any other MMO you'd like to name, doesn't mean that people are going to agree with you, other than the EVE fan base. EVE is definitely UNIQUE among that list of games, I'll grant you that. It's not LIKE any other MMO, for sure. But that doesn't necessarily mean everyone will think it's BETTER. Ya know?
I'm not sure why no one seems to get that not everyone loves the SAME games.....it seems like that's just common sense to me. We all have different personalities and time constraints and many other things that factor into our choice in games. Play what you LIKE....and leave the rest. Go MAKE the game you want to play. Go to school....learn to do it....and make it. Put your money where your mouth is and..... quit relying on other game developers to risk THEIR money to build a game that YOU personally like.
(The last paragraph here is directed at the Blame Game bunch that were posting prior to you, btw.)
*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys. IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.
You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.
The funniest thing is how he compared Ever Quest II to WoW. First of all i still play Ever Quest II, and its still amazing! Second Ever Quest II came out before WoW, so im just wondering how it failed to wow
He's Right. WOW changed MMOs and for the worse IMO. Did they mean to...no.
MMOs use to be more fun as he stated, they use to strive to add more stuff and make the game more challenging. UO / EQ pretty much started it and then the next step was FFXI / SWG. If you played them before WoW hit you can see how difficult both of those were compared to anything else out now. When kids tried those games they cried endlessly about being de-leveled, having to have a perfect group, decay and of course the Jedi issue.
Then WoW came and made it mainstream, as stated. It changed everything b/c of the crowd it brought. Since WoW, no games have been made that cause you put time and effort in your toon. It’s all "look I’m 60 already" in a week time frame. Instant gratification is WoWs tool. It works but even now.....WoW fans are looking placing and seeing "clones". That’s b/c the market changed to what they all flocked too. WoW fans are bored with the same crap but you reap what you sow. You want easy so everyone makes it.
If someone made a game like FFXI/SWG now and people tried it, they would flame the hell out of it. Simply b/c it’s to hard for them. They complain that they don’t have icons on maps to show them where a quest is. GOD forbid you have to read and explore the land to find something. They think every class should somehow be a solo class. Everyone even "healers" can solo. Everyone is a crafter. There is no challenge in that. Then we get stuck with 800 man raids not worth the time simply b/c you never get your loot you wanted. There are plenty of ways around that issue but nobody changes it. "That’s just a RPG with Networking" (SWTOR). Sounds just like any other MMO with their raids, but they bitch.
To end this without writing hundreds of examples.
Depending on what you are looking for in a game or if you’re a console kiddie. WoW can only compete against the new MMOs. Once you place it against all the older MMOs that were before it.....WoW fails. And IMO if you disagree, its b/c of 2 things: You have only played MMOs since WoW has been out or you’re just a console kid who doesn’t know any better.
Quick lets all get together and cry about how great we think our favorite games are and how bad the rest suck! I've got an idea, how about instead of telling me how fricken great WOW is, you just go and play the damn thing. I played WOW when it came out, I played when they added content, I stopped playing because i don't want to play games with little kids. I did that when I was a little kid, I don't need to now. I played EQ2, I liked it for a while before the community turned into rabid morons. I played AoC, I have never been more disappointed with anything in my life including my divorce. I played City of Heroes till I couldn't stomach it anymore. I tried CO, it was cool looking....and that's it. Hell I even played UO and spent five hours of my life cutting down trees to push up my cutting down trees skill, woo ha. All of these statements are my opinion, don't act like I butt raped you because you didn't like what I've said. I'm not telling you that any of these games may not be great for what you want or expect from an MMO. But I am getting seriously tired of reading page after page of "my dogs better than your dog, or who's dad is the toughest. Play your games people. If you don't like Blizzard, don't play WOW, don't like Sony, don't play EQ2. Is hopping up and down about the games you lust over really that damned important? You are not going to convince someone that your opinion is fact, period. So lets all have a beer, simmer down and simply love what we love to play. You need no justification for playing something you love, but stop expecting everyone else to do the same thing.
*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys. IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.
You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.
The funniest thing is how he compared Ever Quest II to WoW. First of all i still play Ever Quest II, and its still amazing! Second Ever Quest II came out before WoW, so im just wondering how it failed to wow
Ever Quest II: November 8, 2004
World of Warcraft: November 23, 2004
I hope your not referring to one of my posts, because nowhere did I compare WoW to EQ2.
And again..Girlgeek misses my point. And I believe like others, saw the first lines, stopped there, and started writing her WoW defense post before taking it all in. BTW, I AM in school for Game Art & Design. And I WILL be making a game, or at least pitching it, that I have been dreaming up for several years now.
Look, WoW has it's merits...but it isn't the "Christ" of MMO's by a long shot. I haven't seen one that is since EQ. Although, EQ was my first MMO, and one of the first (UO was actually first), so it had nothing really to compare to, or live up to because the MMO genre was still being written.
Simply, companies need to stop trying to copy WoW...end of story. Companies need to get out of the tunnel vision of just cash becasue of the potential they saw from WoW's success and be brave to use what MMO's started with again, or should have even. Get back to meaningful story driven quests, good UI, vast open ended world, plenty of classes/races, great crafting system (Vanguard's was very interesting) that has purpose for the economy and players (No crafting fodder. Everything is useful from the start), more emphasis on skill than gear, intelligent AI (Less predictable), and (IMO) no PvP. PvP in MMO's ruins class balancing for PvP AND PvE. Plus, never really gets balanced and is constantly tinkered with due to the onslaught of whiners...which are almost always the PvP'ers, go figure. Also draws in the worse crowd (See WoW or most any other PvP MMO server).
But saying WoW vs' all other MMO's? Ridiculous. It is first based on subscriptions, which is due to the ease of learning and play (1 to 80 in a couple of weeks?!?!??). NOT because it is so great or something. As someone else mentioned, they did nothing innovative or different from any other MMO, just polished things up. I have yet to see a truly innovative MMO produced.
Actually your mistaken. First Off, I didn't spit on WoW, I still have an active account. I just don't log into it. Secondly, Ive probably got more titles from High end content than you think. So I do understand that gear is only a means to an end. But when your raiding Ulduar and you only have a boss or 2 that you havent beat on hard mode, it gets boring fast. I have all the tiitles and max faction from Wrath that I care to. I have every recipe in Inscription and LW prior to 3.2. There isnt much left. Sad thing is, none of it was hard. There is absolutely no challenge in wow at this point. Its Boring.. Its for a casual gamer who is there to epeen and dance around dalaran in all his Epic Glory... who gives a f***... I get sick of the tells.. hey, where did that weapon come from, can i have 1g, hey let me link my old world orange sword in trade, let me start making up sentences using the word ANAL so i can get a laugh.... the whole wow experience has become more a giant children's chat room than an MMO game.
The term grind most certainly started during the EQ era. Even before people were calling it a grind, it was coined as a treadmill. I remember that very well, because it was very accurate and I thought it funny.
Lets be honest, mmos were new and fresh back then. They were also primative and unrefined. Those that stuck around and played the early games didn't so much mind the huge time sinks. That is just how things were as there was nothing to compare it to. I enjoyed it and have some of my best mmo memories from back then, but do not kid myself for one second to think it was the pinnacle of mmo design. I would never, ever want to go through that again and I think the masses of people have to agree with that.
The demographic of mmo players back then might was rather linear, because the appeal was so damn narrow. The specification of the side of the game box might as well have said: requires Pentium processor, 512mb ram, direct3d video card and males in their mid 20's with techincal backgrounds.
The market started rather niche and has since evolved. The problem is that no one has evolved a more indepth hardcore experience that is the modern equivelant of what was offered 10 years ago. I just don't think companies are willing to back the few people who might be able to pull it off. That really isn't the fault of anyone, but the companies who are afraid to take a risk.
Originally posted by Goatgod76 While I agree with some of your points, you, as many others, are still ENTIRELY missing the point of what I am trying to say. But why keep repeating myself to those that only want to see one side of the coin.
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I fail to understand what you are saying. In essence I agree with what you are referring to, just not with the cause of it.
Yes wow/blizzard has had a tremendous impact on the market. The success of wow has changed just about everything we know. However I don't think the blame for what is currently happening is the failure of blizzard.
They are not preventing anyone from making a break through hit. From making a totally different kind of game and changing the direction of the market. From stealing millions of players into their game.
The only thing that is stopping any company from kicking wows ass, is themselves. The only reason wow is so dominating in the market place, is because the market is so damn weak. It is not the fault of blizzard that other companies are not stepping up and doing what needs to get done to change the market or capture a large share of it. They are making it stupid easy for wow to stay right were it is at. Competition is what drives innovation and new developments and there just isn't hasn't been any serious competition the last 5 years.
Last year 2 games break sales records for new mmos. They each sold over a million copies during their release periods, but suffered terrible losses just as fast. People are ready, they want something else, but no one is giving them whatever it is they want.
Originally posted by Goatgod76 While I agree with some of your points, you, as many others, are still ENTIRELY missing the point of what I am trying to say. But why keep repeating myself to those that only want to see one side of the coin.
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I fail to understand what you are saying. In essence I agree with what you are referring to, just not with the cause of it.
Yes wow/blizzard has had a tremendous impact on the market. The success of wow has changed just about everything we know. However I don't think the blame for what is currently happening is the failure of blizzard.
They are not preventing anyone from making a break through hit. From making a totally different kind of game and changing the direction of the market. From stealing millions of players into their game.
The only thing that is stopping any company from kicking wows ass, is themselves. The only reason wow is so dominating in the market place, is because the market is so damn weak. It is not the fault of blizzard that other companies are not stepping up and doing what needs to get done to change the market or capture a large share of it. They are making it stupid easy for wow to stay right were it is at. Competition is what drives innovation and new developments and there just isn't hasn't been any serious competition the last 5 years.
Last year 2 games break sales records for new mmos. They each sold over a million copies during their release periods, but suffered terrible losses just as fast. People are ready, they want something else, but no one is giving them whatever it is they want.
Again, yes I agree that companies are failing on their own in terms...to a large degree. But you cannot tell me that due to Blizzard mainstreaming MMO's and bringing the sheer amount of money to be made with it to the attention of these companies that it didn't have an influence on the direction they took as well. Which yes, I suppose after reading my own stuff, is their fault lol, but was still influence in part by Blizzards model.
Anyway, companies have seemed to stop looking at what they can do to set themselves apart to simply what works now and pulls in the cash. Which is the WoW model....sadly.
Originally posted by Goatgod76 Again, yes I agree that companies are failing on their own in terms...to a large degree. But you cannot tell me that due to Blizzard mainstreaming MMO's and bringing the sheer amount of money to be made with it to the attention of these companies that it didn't have an influence on the direction they took as well. Which yes, I suppose after reading my own stuff, is their fault lol, but was still influence in part by Blizzards model. Anyway, companies have seemed to stop looking at what they can do to set themselves apart to simply what works now and pulls in the cash. Which is the WoW model....sadly.
I agree and yes the success of wow got a lot of attention. However the market was always there. You can see that the growth of the market follows a predictable curve.
Wow is just one game that got it right. If the same thing had happened with say SWG or Dark&Light the market today would be a totally different landscape. Things being what they are, no one is going to mimic failure. =(
On the bright side I think developers are starting to learn that the important aspect to clone from blizzard isn't warcraft, but the way they run the business and develop the game. Wow clones are not really doing all that well and make it pretty easy to return to wow. Hopefully they just apply that lesson to other styles of games and everyone wins. That is what is really missing right now.
giantsquidRunes of Magic CorrespondentMemberPosts: 118
"Free to play games-- they all suck you in for 20 levels then their just a grind unless you pay 2/10"
You may be interested in Runes of Magic. IMO, it's the first F2P to actually play like a quest based subscriber game. I am addicted and bias, so take it for what it's worth. But I really think it's a great game, and not just a watered down copy. I've played for 5 months now and feel it's a pretty unique game. For example, it truly rocks how they let you take the stats from one armor and transfer them to another piece. No more clones! Now even if all yer friends have all the same armor lvl, race, or class you can be as unique as you want. That may be my favorite part. but I think the game has a lot to offer that many other MMO's regardless of payment methods, could learn from.
*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys. IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.
You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.
The funniest thing is how he compared Ever Quest II to WoW. First of all i still play Ever Quest II, and its still amazing! Second Ever Quest II came out before WoW, so im just wondering how it failed to wow
Ever Quest II: November 8, 2004
World of Warcraft: November 23, 2004
I hope your not referring to one of my posts, because nowhere did I compare WoW to EQ2.
And again..Girlgeek misses my point. And I believe like others, saw the first lines, stopped there, and started writing her WoW defense post before taking it all in.
Uhm....no. First of all, I wasn't defending WoW, I was "defending" Blizzard from your blame game of crediting THEM with decisions that OTHER companies and devs made. It's not like they're twisting these other idiot developers arms, is it? GREED is what is "twisting arms." If other developers don't want to make something other than a WoW-esque style game, how exactly is that Blizzard's fault?
BTW, I AM in school for Game Art & Design. And I WILL be making a game, or at least pitching it, that I have been dreaming up for several years now.
Well that is wonderful. So WHEN you invest your time, energy, and money in making this game, do let us know why it is you think that developers tend to go with what's making the most money at the time. I'd like to know who you'll blame for YOUR decisions THEN.....
Look, WoW has it's merits...but it isn't the "Christ" of MMO's by a long shot. I haven't seen one that is since EQ. Although, EQ was my first MMO, and one of the first (UO was actually first), so it had nothing really to compare to, or live up to because the MMO genre was still being written.
And do let us all know where anyone said, or even IMPLIED that WoW was the "Christ" of MMOs. I have no idea how long you've been a gamer, but I'm 46 years old, and I've been gaming since I was old enough to hold a controller. It's not like WoW was even CLOSE to my first MMO, and it certainly is not an object of worship for me. I played UO, FYI, and NWN, and text based games, and also EQ, and many many other "multiplayer" games. My argument is not that WoW is "teh bestest game evaaar zomg it roxxors." My argument is that you made the stupid statement that essentially it's Blizzard's fault for making a successful game that a lot of people liked (and still like) and that THEY have destroyed MMOs. That's just ridiculous. GREED is destroying MMOs, not Blizzard.
Developers can make any kind of game they WANT. They CHOOSE not to make what YOU like....Oooo waaah?? Seriously, come on now. They make what they think will make money. And that is Blizzard's fault how? Go yell at your friends that are playing WoW and EQ2 and every other MMO out there right now, and tell them to stop playing it so that devs will get the picture. Good luck with that, by the way.
Simply, companies need to stop trying to copy WoW...end of story. Companies need to get out of the tunnel vision of just cash becasue of the potential they saw from WoW's success and be brave to use what MMO's started with again, or should have even. Get back to meaningful story driven quests, good UI, vast open ended world, plenty of classes/races, great crafting system (Vanguard's was very interesting) that has purpose for the economy and players (No crafting fodder. Everything is useful from the start), more emphasis on skill than gear, intelligent AI (Less predictable), and (IMO) no PvP. PvP in MMO's ruins class balancing for PvP AND PvE. Plus, never really gets balanced and is constantly tinkered with due to the onslaught of whiners...which are almost always the PvP'ers, go figure. Also draws in the worse crowd (See WoW or most any other PvP MMO server).
Companies are BUSINESSES. I know that's a shocker. They are making games to MAKE MONEY. They will likely make what they see people buying and playing. So until you can convince 11 million people that "WoW sux".....there are going to be more games in the same vein as WoW. Unless and UNTIL....you find someone with enough money to DARE to do something vastly different and not be worried about losing their asses.
But saying WoW vs' all other MMO's? Ridiculous. It is first based on subscriptions, which is due to the ease of learning and play (1 to 80 in a couple of weeks?!?!??). NOT because it is so great or something. As someone else mentioned, they did nothing innovative or different from any other MMO, just polished things up. I have yet to see a truly innovative MMO produced.
Apparently, a lot....a WHOLE lot...of people LIKE that "ease of learning and play," in their hobby of choice. So now your "beef" is with your fellow gamers, not the developers. Because all developers are doing is trying to give people what they believe they want by looking at what games have the most subscribers. And guess what happens when they do that? Guess where their focus gets fixed? Yeah....'nuff said.
If you want an innovative MMO....you'll probably have to either, like you said, make it yourself (I hope you're very very rich, or able to convince a lot of financial backers that your game is effing AMAZING), or....you'll probably have to wait until a developer comes along that has the brass balls to take a huge financial risk and make that "innovative" MMO you're looking for in the gaming world.
Incidentally....it seems when there IS a developer that strays too far off the beaten path and tries to be "innovative"....gamers in their bitchy self-righteous usual way....eat them for lunch, spit in their direction, and go back to whatever they were playing before.
Incidentally....in regards to another post about people who IDOLIZE WoW, basically.....
You know, I couldn't give two shi** and a f*** what anyone else plays. I truthfully could NOT care any less. I play what I find is FUN. That changes for me frequently. I may play LotRO for 3 months, then get bored and go play EVE for 3 months, then play WoW for a few months, and EQ2 for a few months. Hell I may tire of MMOs completely and go play Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines for a month here and there. I don't choose my gaming "diet" based on what other people have to say. I am WAY too old to care. I have high level characters in a LOT of different games. I don't let anyone TELL ME what I "should" be playing, and no one else should either. Conversely....I don't let anyone tell me what I SHOULDN'T be playing either. It's my money, my time, and my decision.
It's your monthly subscription fee, your time, your decisions.
I love how people here constantly ignores someone's feelings for a MMO and then justify their stances on past MMOs based on their own feelings. Like a person's feelings toward their given MMO is somehow flawed or should be held at a lower face value. Kinda like trying to get kids to play 8-bit games and swearing how wonderfully innovative, fun and challenging they were back then.
No pops it's all in your head. Now-a-days you either keep up or get trampled. Same goes for developers. They either learn from the countless failures that try to mimic what Blizzard did or repeat history and risk never making another MMO again.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Comments
Darned right, and that's all remodeled and textured and overall, redone from a very old, crappy looking engine.
That gameplay is fun, but you can't do much without sinking real money into the game, or A LOT of time. It's somewhat hard to explain, I would look over the site.
____________________________
Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
---
== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
---
Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
---
Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
I didn't even BOTHER to re-post the rest of your rant, because it's just so ridiculous. You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.
If you want to BLAME someone...blame all the gamers that LOVE WoW. Blame EVERYONE that ever played WoW....because all of those people are what made WoW successful. Apparently WoW had (and may still have) something that a LOT of people like. Just because SOME don't like it, does not take away from the millions that DO like it. And for this....you blame Blizzard for making a game that did all the things everyone apparently wanted and many STILL want?
LOL
The GREED of other game developers MIGHT be at fault. The gamers that enjoyed the game in the past and present MIGHT be at fault. But WoW ITSELF is not to be faulted for anything, in my opinion. All Blizzard did is give people what they APPARENTLY wanted. And that....is good business, whether you LIKE it, or approve of it, or not.
Logic.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I've played EVE. The "problem" with EVE, is that it's not going to suit everyone's taste. I played it long enough to make millions of isk and have finally gotten my HULK. But to be entirely honest.....I found it EVERY BIT as boring as any other MMO eventually. Now, that MIGHT be because I'm not a big PvP maniac. I suppose if I was out in 0.0 space getting blown to bits by people with far better ships than me it would be more fun? I don't think so, but I can see where some might.
In short....just because YOU think EVE is better than WoW, EQ2, or any other MMO you'd like to name, doesn't mean that people are going to agree with you, other than the EVE fan base. EVE is definitely UNIQUE among that list of games, I'll grant you that. It's not LIKE any other MMO, for sure. But that doesn't necessarily mean everyone will think it's BETTER. Ya know?
I'm not sure why no one seems to get that not everyone loves the SAME games.....it seems like that's just common sense to me. We all have different personalities and time constraints and many other things that factor into our choice in games. Play what you LIKE....and leave the rest. Go MAKE the game you want to play. Go to school....learn to do it....and make it. Put your money where your mouth is and..... quit relying on other game developers to risk THEIR money to build a game that YOU personally like.
(The last paragraph here is directed at the Blame Game bunch that were posting prior to you, btw.)
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.
The funniest thing is how he compared Ever Quest II to WoW. First of all i still play Ever Quest II, and its still amazing! Second Ever Quest II came out before WoW, so im just wondering how it failed to wow
Ever Quest II: November 8, 2004
World of Warcraft: November 23, 2004
He's Right. WOW changed MMOs and for the worse IMO. Did they mean to...no.
MMOs use to be more fun as he stated, they use to strive to add more stuff and make the game more challenging. UO / EQ pretty much started it and then the next step was FFXI / SWG. If you played them before WoW hit you can see how difficult both of those were compared to anything else out now. When kids tried those games they cried endlessly about being de-leveled, having to have a perfect group, decay and of course the Jedi issue.
Then WoW came and made it mainstream, as stated. It changed everything b/c of the crowd it brought. Since WoW, no games have been made that cause you put time and effort in your toon. It’s all "look I’m 60 already" in a week time frame. Instant gratification is WoWs tool. It works but even now.....WoW fans are looking placing and seeing "clones". That’s b/c the market changed to what they all flocked too. WoW fans are bored with the same crap but you reap what you sow. You want easy so everyone makes it.
If someone made a game like FFXI/SWG now and people tried it, they would flame the hell out of it. Simply b/c it’s to hard for them. They complain that they don’t have icons on maps to show them where a quest is. GOD forbid you have to read and explore the land to find something. They think every class should somehow be a solo class. Everyone even "healers" can solo. Everyone is a crafter. There is no challenge in that. Then we get stuck with 800 man raids not worth the time simply b/c you never get your loot you wanted. There are plenty of ways around that issue but nobody changes it. "That’s just a RPG with Networking" (SWTOR). Sounds just like any other MMO with their raids, but they bitch.
To end this without writing hundreds of examples.
Depending on what you are looking for in a game or if you’re a console kiddie. WoW can only compete against the new MMOs. Once you place it against all the older MMOs that were before it.....WoW fails. And IMO if you disagree, its b/c of 2 things: You have only played MMOs since WoW has been out or you’re just a console kid who doesn’t know any better.
Quick lets all get together and cry about how great we think our favorite games are and how bad the rest suck! I've got an idea, how about instead of telling me how fricken great WOW is, you just go and play the damn thing. I played WOW when it came out, I played when they added content, I stopped playing because i don't want to play games with little kids. I did that when I was a little kid, I don't need to now. I played EQ2, I liked it for a while before the community turned into rabid morons. I played AoC, I have never been more disappointed with anything in my life including my divorce. I played City of Heroes till I couldn't stomach it anymore. I tried CO, it was cool looking....and that's it. Hell I even played UO and spent five hours of my life cutting down trees to push up my cutting down trees skill, woo ha. All of these statements are my opinion, don't act like I butt raped you because you didn't like what I've said. I'm not telling you that any of these games may not be great for what you want or expect from an MMO. But I am getting seriously tired of reading page after page of "my dogs better than your dog, or who's dad is the toughest. Play your games people. If you don't like Blizzard, don't play WOW, don't like Sony, don't play EQ2. Is hopping up and down about the games you lust over really that damned important? You are not going to convince someone that your opinion is fact, period. So lets all have a beer, simmer down and simply love what we love to play. You need no justification for playing something you love, but stop expecting everyone else to do the same thing.
Thanks!
I hate all of you equally.
You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.
The funniest thing is how he compared Ever Quest II to WoW. First of all i still play Ever Quest II, and its still amazing! Second Ever Quest II came out before WoW, so im just wondering how it failed to wow
Ever Quest II: November 8, 2004
World of Warcraft: November 23, 2004
I hope your not referring to one of my posts, because nowhere did I compare WoW to EQ2.
And again..Girlgeek misses my point. And I believe like others, saw the first lines, stopped there, and started writing her WoW defense post before taking it all in. BTW, I AM in school for Game Art & Design. And I WILL be making a game, or at least pitching it, that I have been dreaming up for several years now.
Look, WoW has it's merits...but it isn't the "Christ" of MMO's by a long shot. I haven't seen one that is since EQ. Although, EQ was my first MMO, and one of the first (UO was actually first), so it had nothing really to compare to, or live up to because the MMO genre was still being written.
Simply, companies need to stop trying to copy WoW...end of story. Companies need to get out of the tunnel vision of just cash becasue of the potential they saw from WoW's success and be brave to use what MMO's started with again, or should have even. Get back to meaningful story driven quests, good UI, vast open ended world, plenty of classes/races, great crafting system (Vanguard's was very interesting) that has purpose for the economy and players (No crafting fodder. Everything is useful from the start), more emphasis on skill than gear, intelligent AI (Less predictable), and (IMO) no PvP. PvP in MMO's ruins class balancing for PvP AND PvE. Plus, never really gets balanced and is constantly tinkered with due to the onslaught of whiners...which are almost always the PvP'ers, go figure. Also draws in the worse crowd (See WoW or most any other PvP MMO server).
But saying WoW vs' all other MMO's? Ridiculous. It is first based on subscriptions, which is due to the ease of learning and play (1 to 80 in a couple of weeks?!?!??). NOT because it is so great or something. As someone else mentioned, they did nothing innovative or different from any other MMO, just polished things up. I have yet to see a truly innovative MMO produced.
The term grind most certainly started during the EQ era. Even before people were calling it a grind, it was coined as a treadmill. I remember that very well, because it was very accurate and I thought it funny.
Lets be honest, mmos were new and fresh back then. They were also primative and unrefined. Those that stuck around and played the early games didn't so much mind the huge time sinks. That is just how things were as there was nothing to compare it to. I enjoyed it and have some of my best mmo memories from back then, but do not kid myself for one second to think it was the pinnacle of mmo design. I would never, ever want to go through that again and I think the masses of people have to agree with that.
The demographic of mmo players back then might was rather linear, because the appeal was so damn narrow. The specification of the side of the game box might as well have said: requires Pentium processor, 512mb ram, direct3d video card and males in their mid 20's with techincal backgrounds.
The market started rather niche and has since evolved. The problem is that no one has evolved a more indepth hardcore experience that is the modern equivelant of what was offered 10 years ago. I just don't think companies are willing to back the few people who might be able to pull it off. That really isn't the fault of anyone, but the companies who are afraid to take a risk.
I think the OP would go pick up a free Vanguard "dic" at a store.
http://www.facebook.com/DEATHREAT
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I fail to understand what you are saying. In essence I agree with what you are referring to, just not with the cause of it.
Yes wow/blizzard has had a tremendous impact on the market. The success of wow has changed just about everything we know. However I don't think the blame for what is currently happening is the failure of blizzard.
They are not preventing anyone from making a break through hit. From making a totally different kind of game and changing the direction of the market. From stealing millions of players into their game.
The only thing that is stopping any company from kicking wows ass, is themselves. The only reason wow is so dominating in the market place, is because the market is so damn weak. It is not the fault of blizzard that other companies are not stepping up and doing what needs to get done to change the market or capture a large share of it. They are making it stupid easy for wow to stay right were it is at. Competition is what drives innovation and new developments and there just isn't hasn't been any serious competition the last 5 years.
Last year 2 games break sales records for new mmos. They each sold over a million copies during their release periods, but suffered terrible losses just as fast. People are ready, they want something else, but no one is giving them whatever it is they want.
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I fail to understand what you are saying. In essence I agree with what you are referring to, just not with the cause of it.
Yes wow/blizzard has had a tremendous impact on the market. The success of wow has changed just about everything we know. However I don't think the blame for what is currently happening is the failure of blizzard.
They are not preventing anyone from making a break through hit. From making a totally different kind of game and changing the direction of the market. From stealing millions of players into their game.
The only thing that is stopping any company from kicking wows ass, is themselves. The only reason wow is so dominating in the market place, is because the market is so damn weak. It is not the fault of blizzard that other companies are not stepping up and doing what needs to get done to change the market or capture a large share of it. They are making it stupid easy for wow to stay right were it is at. Competition is what drives innovation and new developments and there just isn't hasn't been any serious competition the last 5 years.
Last year 2 games break sales records for new mmos. They each sold over a million copies during their release periods, but suffered terrible losses just as fast. People are ready, they want something else, but no one is giving them whatever it is they want.
Again, yes I agree that companies are failing on their own in terms...to a large degree. But you cannot tell me that due to Blizzard mainstreaming MMO's and bringing the sheer amount of money to be made with it to the attention of these companies that it didn't have an influence on the direction they took as well. Which yes, I suppose after reading my own stuff, is their fault lol, but was still influence in part by Blizzards model.
Anyway, companies have seemed to stop looking at what they can do to set themselves apart to simply what works now and pulls in the cash. Which is the WoW model....sadly.
I agree and yes the success of wow got a lot of attention. However the market was always there. You can see that the growth of the market follows a predictable curve.
Wow is just one game that got it right. If the same thing had happened with say SWG or Dark&Light the market today would be a totally different landscape. Things being what they are, no one is going to mimic failure. =(
On the bright side I think developers are starting to learn that the important aspect to clone from blizzard isn't warcraft, but the way they run the business and develop the game. Wow clones are not really doing all that well and make it pretty easy to return to wow. Hopefully they just apply that lesson to other styles of games and everyone wins. That is what is really missing right now.
@page
"Free to play games-- they all suck you in for 20 levels then their just a grind unless you pay 2/10"
You may be interested in Runes of Magic. IMO, it's the first F2P to actually play like a quest based subscriber game. I am addicted and bias, so take it for what it's worth. But I really think it's a great game, and not just a watered down copy. I've played for 5 months now and feel it's a pretty unique game. For example, it truly rocks how they let you take the stats from one armor and transfer them to another piece. No more clones! Now even if all yer friends have all the same armor lvl, race, or class you can be as unique as you want. That may be my favorite part. but I think the game has a lot to offer that many other MMO's regardless of payment methods, could learn from.
Just One MMOre
I'm just going to stop you there and just say, you have no idea what your talking about now.
You're blaming what other companies decided to do on the success of WoW? That's completely illogical.
The funniest thing is how he compared Ever Quest II to WoW. First of all i still play Ever Quest II, and its still amazing! Second Ever Quest II came out before WoW, so im just wondering how it failed to wow
Ever Quest II: November 8, 2004
World of Warcraft: November 23, 2004
I hope your not referring to one of my posts, because nowhere did I compare WoW to EQ2.
And again..Girlgeek misses my point. And I believe like others, saw the first lines, stopped there, and started writing her WoW defense post before taking it all in.
Uhm....no. First of all, I wasn't defending WoW, I was "defending" Blizzard from your blame game of crediting THEM with decisions that OTHER companies and devs made. It's not like they're twisting these other idiot developers arms, is it? GREED is what is "twisting arms." If other developers don't want to make something other than a WoW-esque style game, how exactly is that Blizzard's fault?
BTW, I AM in school for Game Art & Design. And I WILL be making a game, or at least pitching it, that I have been dreaming up for several years now.
Well that is wonderful. So WHEN you invest your time, energy, and money in making this game, do let us know why it is you think that developers tend to go with what's making the most money at the time. I'd like to know who you'll blame for YOUR decisions THEN.....
Look, WoW has it's merits...but it isn't the "Christ" of MMO's by a long shot. I haven't seen one that is since EQ. Although, EQ was my first MMO, and one of the first (UO was actually first), so it had nothing really to compare to, or live up to because the MMO genre was still being written.
And do let us all know where anyone said, or even IMPLIED that WoW was the "Christ" of MMOs. I have no idea how long you've been a gamer, but I'm 46 years old, and I've been gaming since I was old enough to hold a controller. It's not like WoW was even CLOSE to my first MMO, and it certainly is not an object of worship for me. I played UO, FYI, and NWN, and text based games, and also EQ, and many many other "multiplayer" games. My argument is not that WoW is "teh bestest game evaaar zomg it roxxors." My argument is that you made the stupid statement that essentially it's Blizzard's fault for making a successful game that a lot of people liked (and still like) and that THEY have destroyed MMOs. That's just ridiculous. GREED is destroying MMOs, not Blizzard.
Developers can make any kind of game they WANT. They CHOOSE not to make what YOU like....Oooo waaah?? Seriously, come on now. They make what they think will make money. And that is Blizzard's fault how? Go yell at your friends that are playing WoW and EQ2 and every other MMO out there right now, and tell them to stop playing it so that devs will get the picture. Good luck with that, by the way.
Simply, companies need to stop trying to copy WoW...end of story. Companies need to get out of the tunnel vision of just cash becasue of the potential they saw from WoW's success and be brave to use what MMO's started with again, or should have even. Get back to meaningful story driven quests, good UI, vast open ended world, plenty of classes/races, great crafting system (Vanguard's was very interesting) that has purpose for the economy and players (No crafting fodder. Everything is useful from the start), more emphasis on skill than gear, intelligent AI (Less predictable), and (IMO) no PvP. PvP in MMO's ruins class balancing for PvP AND PvE. Plus, never really gets balanced and is constantly tinkered with due to the onslaught of whiners...which are almost always the PvP'ers, go figure. Also draws in the worse crowd (See WoW or most any other PvP MMO server).
Companies are BUSINESSES. I know that's a shocker. They are making games to MAKE MONEY. They will likely make what they see people buying and playing. So until you can convince 11 million people that "WoW sux".....there are going to be more games in the same vein as WoW. Unless and UNTIL....you find someone with enough money to DARE to do something vastly different and not be worried about losing their asses.
But saying WoW vs' all other MMO's? Ridiculous. It is first based on subscriptions, which is due to the ease of learning and play (1 to 80 in a couple of weeks?!?!??). NOT because it is so great or something. As someone else mentioned, they did nothing innovative or different from any other MMO, just polished things up. I have yet to see a truly innovative MMO produced.
Apparently, a lot....a WHOLE lot...of people LIKE that "ease of learning and play," in their hobby of choice. So now your "beef" is with your fellow gamers, not the developers. Because all developers are doing is trying to give people what they believe they want by looking at what games have the most subscribers. And guess what happens when they do that? Guess where their focus gets fixed? Yeah....'nuff said.
If you want an innovative MMO....you'll probably have to either, like you said, make it yourself (I hope you're very very rich, or able to convince a lot of financial backers that your game is effing AMAZING), or....you'll probably have to wait until a developer comes along that has the brass balls to take a huge financial risk and make that "innovative" MMO you're looking for in the gaming world.
Incidentally....it seems when there IS a developer that strays too far off the beaten path and tries to be "innovative"....gamers in their bitchy self-righteous usual way....eat them for lunch, spit in their direction, and go back to whatever they were playing before.
Incidentally....in regards to another post about people who IDOLIZE WoW, basically.....
You know, I couldn't give two shi** and a f*** what anyone else plays. I truthfully could NOT care any less. I play what I find is FUN. That changes for me frequently. I may play LotRO for 3 months, then get bored and go play EVE for 3 months, then play WoW for a few months, and EQ2 for a few months. Hell I may tire of MMOs completely and go play Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines for a month here and there. I don't choose my gaming "diet" based on what other people have to say. I am WAY too old to care. I have high level characters in a LOT of different games. I don't let anyone TELL ME what I "should" be playing, and no one else should either. Conversely....I don't let anyone tell me what I SHOULDN'T be playing either. It's my money, my time, and my decision.
It's your monthly subscription fee, your time, your decisions.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I love how people here constantly ignores someone's feelings for a MMO and then justify their stances on past MMOs based on their own feelings. Like a person's feelings toward their given MMO is somehow flawed or should be held at a lower face value. Kinda like trying to get kids to play 8-bit games and swearing how wonderfully innovative, fun and challenging they were back then.
No pops it's all in your head. Now-a-days you either keep up or get trampled. Same goes for developers. They either learn from the countless failures that try to mimic what Blizzard did or repeat history and risk never making another MMO again.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."