Armot itself doesn't make sense in mmorpg. People wear full suits of heavy plate type armor should not even be able to run or move at a decent speed. Real life fights are based on evading most hits, and a few accuracy and strong hits determine the winner. People don't take damage from being attacked, they get injured, and injured in the wrong place = death. See, if it is a game, alot of things already don't make sense, female armor is only a very very small portion of it. I mean if something is not going to make sense to begin with, why not have skimpy armor? I think that is pretty logical.
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
The idea that a fallen knight in plate armor is like a turtle flipped onto its back is faulty. Assuming the armor fits well, an active person loses very little in the way of mobility. Obviously you wouldn't want to walk a tight-rope while wearing it, but mounting/dismounting, and more importantly, combat movement is not impacted to any serious degree. Our ancestors weren't stupid. Plate wouldn't have been a dominant force on the battlefield for hundreds of years if it reduced combatants to shuffling about, golem-like, merely hoping that somebody with a blacksmith's hammer didn't manage to side-step behind them and smash their helmets in.
Plate is hot to wear, and heat-exhaustion due to over-exertion can be a real problem though.
I find it amusing that this is THE thing that some people find unrealistic in a Fantasy game. Everything else makes sense and is believable? lol
It is absolutely true that full plate protects the body better than the skimpy armor on contact by a weapon. But it is not as clear cut as everyone seem to think. Agility is just as good of a defence as being protected from head to toe in steel. Just wanted to point out that sometime less is more, it is always situational. If you think beeing in combat with 100+ pounds of protection on you wont affect your stamina, quickness ect maybe you should try it out. ;-)
Armot itself doesn't make sense in mmorpg. People wear full suits of heavy plate type armor should not even be able to run or move at a decent speed. Real life fights are based on evading most hits, and a few accuracy and strong hits determine the winner. People don't take damage from being attacked, they get injured, and injured in the wrong place = death. See, if it is a game, alot of things already don't make sense, female armor is only a very very small portion of it. I mean if something is not going to make sense to begin with, why not have skimpy armor? I think that is pretty logical.
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
Main-Gauge was an off-hand dagger used in conjunction with a Rapier as a fencing weapon. They were not carried by priests for coup-de-grace. It often had a basket hilt and was a parrying weapon.
Your correct however that priests often carried daggers to "mercy-kill" mortally injured knights , the thrust was generally done up through the armpit though, the Gorget protected the neckline.
As to other posters, Armor progressed in the standard arms-race method getting heavier over time, but it always kept a good degree of mobility. Even a full suit of gothic plate (late middle ages - 15th cen) was pretty mobile for a trained user. Plate lost fashion pretty quickly when longbows / Crossbows (they were labeled as the "devils weapon" by the church) and later gunpower weapons hit the field with thier penetration invalidating its usage.
Modern kevlar etc is not as heavy as full plate or even heavy chainmail, we have advanced somewhat from that stage. Although it can be argued that the modern soldier does hump more gear into combat with thier weapons, ammo, kit bags etc. Modern soldiers are geared out to be as self-sufficient as possible .. knights were not.
Its simply wrong to say a knight who was knocked over was "like a turtle" .. far from it unless you killed him pretty quickly they would regain thier footing. It is accurate to say that concussion trauma became more an issue in full plate. (Hence hammers, heavy mace etc) However, the sword was still caught up in the arm's race against plate in variations such as the Estoc, designed to combat foes in plate armor. (Being long, thin with a point and virtually no "blade" it was designed to pierce plate or slip through the over-lapping plates)
<Edit> And for the OP,
It depends on the game for me. A high fantasy type game (Everquest etc) I really dont mind the skimpy armor as "magic" can explain away just about anything. A Low fantasy or Sci-Fi game I prefure a more realistic look as it fits the setting better. So for me its about the setting of the game, as long as it does not break the theme of the game Its fine (IMO) ...
From a pure combat point of view... Yes i know, sex sells. But if giving women fully clothed armor keeps the kiddies away, I'm all for it. But that's not the focus of why I posted. Exceptions? When a game takes place in an age where there is little armor coverage such as Conan. I have no idea about the game, but at least Arnold sported only a rag about his twig and berries. It would be believable then that a women in armor would be dressed similarly. But mainly, if as a male, I am dressed in full plate armor and you can't even see my face let alone any skin, then why would a female have Plate Boots, a plate thong and bikini, and Plate gloves? ... more importantly, offer the same protection rating as the full on plate guy? Again, the sex sells thing?... it's not a good enough excuse. Not as long as the rational part of my brain exists. And since I gave WoW up a long time ago, I still have a rational brain cell somewhere.
"5 : the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need <an object of fantasy>; also : a mental image or a series of mental images (as a daydream) so created <sexual fantasies of adolescence>"
In reality, I don't go up to people with Exclamation marks above their heads to ask them what they want me to do so I can get money and xp. Even if they did I doubt that they would want me to kill 5 cats so I can bring them their paws so they can make a wearable trinket for me that would give me +'s to my magic resistance.
In reality, though not personally tested, when people die they are dead. They do not respawn at their last bind point, or ressurect themselves in graveyards with rez sickness.
In reality, even if you had 20 people in full plate with swords and shields, a 100m tall living, breathing, dragon would make you piss and shit your pants, especially while it's biting you in half despite you being in head to toe metal armor.
In reality, people don't throw lightning bolts or fireballs.
In reality, you don't see women wearing skimpy clothing that's totally useless and just for the sheer purpose of showing off their ass or cleavage...
Oh wait, I guess you do.
What was your argument again?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Originally posted by trapdoor From a pure combat point of view... Yes i know, sex sells. But if giving women fully clothed armor keeps the kiddies away, I'm all for it. But that's not the focus of why I posted.
I know. Its one of those 10 rules of video games, something about "a tank top has more armor than a full suit of plate". Its very frustrating to most female gamers, but I don't know how it will change unless game marketers realize that there is a large female (and mature male) player base. Obviously, studies have shown this quite clearly. But the marketing teams just have not caught up.
Keep posting the complaint! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!
In regards to MMORPGs being a fantasy genre, I see plenty of modern and sci-fi games on The Big List. Also, one person's "fantasy" (dictionary definition) is certainly not always another person's, and marketing should take this into account.
Male armor doesn't make any sense either, you should be fully clothed as a warrior. Even if you can't find a full set of plate, you should patch the rest with leather or chain. It's not just female armor, people just focus on that because the MMO population is still predominantly male.
Fighters are supposed to be very lean too, not very muscular, (see the Roman armies), most warrior in MMO are much too muscular, they weigh way too much to travel those distances.
From a pure combat point of view... Yes i know, sex sells. But if giving women fully clothed armor keeps the kiddies away, I'm all for it. But that's not the focus of why I posted.
I know. Its one of those 10 rules of video games, something about "a tank top has more armor than a full suit of plate". Its very frustrating to most female gamers, but I don't know how it will change unless game marketers realize that there is a large female (and mature male) player base. Obviously, studies have shown this quite clearly. But the marketing teams just have not caught up.
Keep posting the complaint! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!
In regards to MMORPGs being a fantasy genre, I see plenty of modern and sci-fi games on The Big List. Also, one person's "fantasy" (dictionary definition) is certainly not always another person's, and marketing should take this into account.
Plenty of mature females I've gamed with actually enjoy the looks of their skimpy armor. I'm no kid that sits around jerking it all day to a toon in a game, either... but I have to admit, that occasionally, the random sexy toon passing by is pleasant to see. Not all games do it in a way that's immersion breaking, either, and it isn't always just so out of place you go "WTF IS THAT DOING HERE?!" Speaking of immersion, what world do people live in where they never see an attractive woman? I'd personally hate playing a game where there was hardly any distinction between male and female toons, and in most games not all female armor is so revealing. There's plenty of degrees of skimpyness. There's plenty of games that are extreme, and all females wear thong bikinis, but those are generally the easily avoided Asian grinders in my experience.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Armot itself doesn't make sense in mmorpg. People wear full suits of heavy plate type armor should not even be able to run or move at a decent speed. Real life fights are based on evading most hits, and a few accuracy and strong hits determine the winner. People don't take damage from being attacked, they get injured, and injured in the wrong place = death. See, if it is a game, alot of things already don't make sense, female armor is only a very very small portion of it. I mean if something is not going to make sense to begin with, why not have skimpy armor? I think that is pretty logical.
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
Main-Gauge was an off-hand dagger used in conjunction with a Rapier as a fencing weapon. They were not carried by priests for coup-de-grace. It traditionally had a basket hilt and was a parrying weapon.
Your correct however that priests often carried daggers to "mercy-kill" mortally injured knights , the thrust was generally done up through the armpit though, the Gorget protected the neckline.
As to other posters, Armor progressed in the standard arms-race method getting heavier over time, but it always kept a good degree of mobility. Even a full suit of gothic plate (late middle ages - 15th cen) was pretty mobile for a trained user. Plate lost fashion pretty quickly when longbows / Crossbows (they were labeled as the "devils weapon" by the church) and later gunpower weapons hit the field with thier penetration invalidating its usage.
Modern kevlar etc is not as heavy as full plate or even heavy chainmail, we have advanced somewhat from that stage. Although it can be argued that the modern soldier does hump more gear into combat with thier weapons, ammo, kit bags etc. Modern soldiers are geared out to be as self-sufficient as possible .. knights were not.
Its simply wrong to say a knight who was knocked over was "like a turtle" .. far from it unless you killed him pretty quickly they would regain thier footing. It is accurate to say that concussion trauma became more an issue in full plate. (Hence hammers, heavy mace etc) However, the sword was still caught up in the arm's race against plate in variations such as the Estoc, designed to combat foes in plate armor. (Being long, thin with a point and virtually no "blade" it was designed to pierce plate or slip through the over-lapping plates)
<Edit> And for the OP,
It depends on the game for me. A high fantasy type game (Everquest etc) I really dont mind the skimpy armor as "magic" can explain away just about anything. A Low fantasy or Sci-Fi game I prefure a more realistic look as it fits the setting better. So for me its about the setting of the game, as long as it does not break the theme of the game Its fine (IMO) ...
Ahh sorry I got confused about Maine Gauche and Misericorde. They are both used tha way historically, yeah Misericorde is the ones that is the correct thin blade. Thanks for correcting me.
Actually I didn't say it was like a turtle. (Did I say turtle? I thought I only said it was hard to get up)
Plate armor when people get knocked down it can vary, if they get knocked down straight up, then yes concussion is also part of it, but that was why they wore chain or sometimes pads under it. However, when a armored knight falls down, the main thing that prevent them from getting up fast is that plate armor are bulky and the joints are hard to move in. They either have to roll to a position on all 4 and get up (which is usually better) or use their hand to support their weight then get up normally from sitting position. However, no enemy is going to just let them get up, a simple kick or a sweep of weapon knocks them down again. Basically a suit of plate armor can be considered both armor and coffin, if they lose what little mobility they have, then the armor feel more like something that hinder them than protecting them.
Just think of an astronaut suit, even those suits are hard to move in under gravity, much less a bulky suit of metal. (Which does not even conform with your movements much) Unlike Ironman or some morder sci-fi armor, the bulk is enough to make you as agile as a 60 year old man. (I don't mean those super healthy ones either) However they consider the superior defense worth it since an army of armored knights are much harder to defeat. Only down side would be they are very hard to make back in the day since most of those are made by hand.
Armored knights can only charge for a very short time, due to weight and impact of running, but that running speed is rather pathetic to begin with anyways compare to someone wearing light armor. Plus the more strength you exert the faster you get tired in a suit of plate armor, but I think this was pretty obvious anyways.
I think we are derailing a bit so I am gonna stop reply to every little thing. Main thing I want to say is that I did not say turtle.
it doesn´t make sense, its a game, game physics usually don't make sense
That's for certain. Now if we need to go down the it has to make sense road, then all the other stuff must come with it. Ammo, carrying limits, real time travel, etc.
Originally posted by Shiymmas I have to admit, that occasionally, the random sexy toon passing by is pleasant to see. Not all games do it in a way that's immersion breaking, either, and it isn't always just so out of place you go "WTF IS THAT DOING HERE?!" Speaking of immersion, what world do people live in where they never see an attractive woman? I'd personally hate playing a game where there was hardly any distinction between male and female toons, and in most games not all female armor is so revealing. There's plenty of degrees of skimpyness. There's plenty of games that are extreme, and all females wear thong bikinis, but those are generally the easily avoided Asian grinders in my experience.
I don't have a problem with people being more attractive in games. Or showing a bit more skin than necessary. It is the extreme cases that bother me - just like you're saying: thong bikinis. Or, getting some fantastic rare drop armor and having it appear as an incredible suit of plate armor on male characters and a metal bra on female characters.
I think there is a happy medium. Or, they could do more fan service for female players
Honestly in the heat of a fight, I don't see sex appeal giving a women an advantage at all. I would love to see an mmo were they actually penalized such armor personally. This is not going to protect you. Honestly i would probably gut this person, and then probably rape her.
This is going to keep you alive. I would probably turn tail if I saw someone running at me in this.
Im all for realistic armor, personally I think a woman decked out in Plate is pretty damn badass.
looks like you have some issues to deal with eh, besides who cares its a game.
From a pure combat point of view... Yes i know, sex sells. But if giving women fully clothed armor keeps the kiddies away, I'm all for it. But that's not the focus of why I posted.
I know. Its one of those 10 rules of video games, something about "a tank top has more armor than a full suit of plate". Its very frustrating to most female gamers, but I don't know how it will change unless game marketers realize that there is a large female (and mature male) player base. Obviously, studies have shown this quite clearly. But the marketing teams just have not caught up.
Keep posting the complaint! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!
In regards to MMORPGs being a fantasy genre, I see plenty of modern and sci-fi games on The Big List. Also, one person's "fantasy" (dictionary definition) is certainly not always another person's, and marketing should take this into account.
Aaaaaactually to be honest. Most have and do.
Lets see... My High Elf Cleric in Classic EQ had a suit of full plate armor. She looked like a shiny statue with no bits exposed. That was back in '97. Then the same with EQ2.
My female Gnome Warrior in WoW, looked like a meanacing, full metal turtle. No naughty parts exposed.
So you see, from past to present, there are some that don't... and some do. With marketing, you tend to choose a target audience to whom you cater to.
Let's take for instance... women's clothing here in the real world. For what actual purpose, other than eye candy, would or should a woman wear anything that would hint at or blatantly expose cleavage, or their rear-ends? When a woman in short shorts that rides just above her cheeks bends over or squats in a public places "just to pick something up" she's not aware that her string thong with a cherry emblem on the back is popping up out? There are people that make that clothing for impractical purposes, for no other reason, than for a woman to wear and show off her body. Hell there are even clothing lines for young girls that encourage "Prosti-tot" fashion. Marketing is VERY aware, my friend. Otherwise, women fashion wouldn't go beyond islamic garbs of hijab head covers and jilbab robe material... because what's the point OTHER than to show off ones stuff and be "impractical"?
In comparison, it wouldn't be THAT HARD to fathom that perhaps the armor that women wear in a mythical setting is just as practical as women's clothing is today. So why do it? Because they can I guess.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
"Main thing I want to say is that I did not say turtle."
Indeed you did not say that, Hjor did a few posts back and my Turtle comment was to him not you, sorry if there was some confusion there !
"Misericorde" = I knew there was a specific name for the daggers used I just could'ent think of it lol. You've saved me some hunting because it was bugging me
As for the plate armor discussion, I disagree here. Its not actually that hard to move about it. Now I've never worn a suit of Gothic plate (thats the stuff you see in movies - Camelot and the like) but I have worn a suit of half plate. (The joys of growing up near a castle in England ) It alone is fairly heavy .. but when worn the weight is pretty evenly spred and movement came pretty naturally after an "adjustment" period. Thats to said I did'ent stand up and do cartwheels but I could move about pretty easy. Given a few years training in the stuff I'm sure it would come as second nature. The worst part about Half plate armor was infact the helm .. the one I wore was a full helm and it really impacts your line of sight and Peripheral vision.
Sure I could'ent "Spring up" if knocked down in it .. but it was'ent as difficult as you'd expect to regain your footing.
The suits of Gothic plate they did have there (Bare in mind most of this stuff was purly cerimonial and had never seen a battle field) was pretty articulated and moved freely. Thats the stuff you see in the movies, most movies would have you believe that Gothic plate was common in the 8th-12th C when infact it was'ent even made until the 15th C and was VERY rare with only the richest nobles commisioning sets of it, and as I said before, it was mostly Cerimonial. Unfortunatly we were not allowed to mess with it (Antiques and all) so I cant say that it would be *easy* to move around it .. just that it would'ent be as hard as alot of people assume.
Pretty good read and pretty factual too. Yer its a wiki so take it with a pinch of salt, its pretty close to the truth though (from my, admittedly, limited exposure to plate armors)
What I find most interesting about this very old debate is that while people are debating whether or not it is realistic that female armor looks more like an iron clad bakini, these same people have no trouble....
Playing a character that hurls bolts of lightening
Having a common belief that rogues posess the abiility to turn invisible
Believing that everyone can return from the dead unless your an NPC
Rats and Pigs carry weapons and gold
Several different species all seem to have the inate ability to speak the same common language ... and that each species has a single language of their own.
Believing in dragons, lepricons and unicorns (oh my!)
Ride a horse that farts fire
It's fantasy. Sex sells. This predates video games. Take a look at any RPG artwork from the 80s and you will see many different artists that have painted scenes depicting warrior women in skimpy clothing. Fantasy art goes back much further with simular imagery.
Fantasy, is the key word. It's not supposed to completely resemble reality. If it did, it wouldn't be a fantasy RPG. It would be a historical RPG.
the only time i have ever seen a chick in full plate was Hellgate London (pretty sure that chick was wearing full plate) and Fallout 3 (tjhose paladin people) and to be honest...they looked kick ass.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I honestly think HG:L had the armor down. I don't care if what you think of the game itself, I loved their armor for the Templars and Marksmen. Both Male and Female.
Originally posted by Death1942 the only time i have ever seen a chick in full plate was Hellgate London (pretty sure that chick was wearing full plate) and Fallout 3 (tjhose paladin people) and to be honest...they looked kick ass.
Armot itself doesn't make sense in mmorpg. People wear full suits of heavy plate type armor should not even be able to run or move at a decent speed. Real life fights are based on evading most hits, and a few accuracy and strong hits determine the winner. People don't take damage from being attacked, they get injured, and injured in the wrong place = death. See, if it is a game, alot of things already don't make sense, female armor is only a very very small portion of it. I mean if something is not going to make sense to begin with, why not have skimpy armor? I think that is pretty logical.
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
See that thing in red? Read it again. You know zip point squat about medieval armor, weapons, or the reality of combat. Before reciting the fairy tales they teach the gullible talk to people who still forge, wear and fight in medieval reproduction armor. The average Full suit of combar armor weighed 40-60 pounds including all the padding. Metal armor is actually lighter than leather for equivalent protection. The average longsword weighed three to sevenpounds and could penetrate armor if used correctly. "Heavy plate" is a myth. The only place anything like it was ever used was in tournaments and even then it wasn't that heavy. It was Never used on the field of battle. Main-Guache is a parry weapon used in the late middle ages and early renaissance against unarmored opponents in streetfights and affairs of honor not battlefields. It literally means "left hand" and was originally used with a rapier in the right. By that time the only armor you were likely to see in combat was a chest piece and a helmet. Full suits of armor were made pointless by the crossbow.
To butt in, Ive actually wore a full plate medievel replica armor used by the knights, it was so heavy. I cant imagine getting up if I fell and was exhausted. They were meant for the horseback, theres no way you could do much on foot with that weight crushing down on you. Noticed that the armour for the ground troops were more made of chainmail then plate...
As for history heavy cavalry was something the french and the brittish used in all their armies as crush weapons. For the brittish it was the only thing preventing the scotts from claiming their country. Sure it happened in the end but still to say full plate cavalery didnt exist is bull. It is true however that crossbows and muskets pretty much spelled the death of its role since the armour didnt give any real protection and slowed its bearer down. But the crossbow didnt kill the full plate, it was merely a weapon against it, the musket put the final nail in the coffin. But that was sometime around the 17th centuary
From a pure combat point of view... Yes i know, sex sells. But if giving women fully clothed armor keeps the kiddies away, I'm all for it. But that's not the focus of why I posted. Exceptions? When a game takes place in an age where there is little armor coverage such as Conan. I have no idea about the game, but at least Arnold sported only a rag about his twig and berries. It would be believable then that a women in armor would be dressed similarly. But mainly, if as a male, I am dressed in full plate armor and you can't even see my face let alone any skin, then why would a female have Plate Boots, a plate thong and bikini, and Plate gloves? ... more importantly, offer the same protection rating as the full on plate guy? Again, the sex sells thing?... it's not a good enough excuse. Not as long as the rational part of my brain exists. And since I gave WoW up a long time ago, I still have a rational brain cell somewhere.
It's magic and technology far beyond the real world, duh.
We're playing games where you shoot lightning bolts from your fingers, and suits of armor with jet packs and laser beams, and you can't believe skimpy armor can protect women wearing it?
Some games cover the ladies up. EQ2 comes to mind.
I don't necessarily want my characters running around in a chainmail thong, I also don't want to wear ugly overalls and oven mits. (I mean, I do wear oven mitts when I am taking stuff out of the oven, but I don't walk around in them.) Sex sells, sure... Also, it's fantasy game, and having characters that look like that is as close as a lot of us ladies are ever going to get to looking like that.
There's a thing about realism... it's generally not fun. If it were, we'd all turn off our gaming machines and go have another big dose of REAL instead.
... This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Ah HGL and Fury could have been wonderful games. I miss them both.
Anyways, it isn't just about that sex sells, it's the fact that half nekkid woman turn guys heads. Especially gamer guys. So they check it out. Look at the blog that dana did about bewbs a week or so ago. So much of it was spot on.
There are some games where female models in armor look great with what you would expect to be good armor covering them. Many games this is not so. They drab garb giving to females in some games is a big put off for those who like to stand out, look different, or just plain look cute. But being half naked in the best gear is silly in itself. There is a point where it can look great, and wanted, but sometimes it is just taken way too far.
Armot itself doesn't make sense in mmorpg. People wear full suits of heavy plate type armor should not even be able to run or move at a decent speed. Real life fights are based on evading most hits, and a few accuracy and strong hits determine the winner. People don't take damage from being attacked, they get injured, and injured in the wrong place = death. See, if it is a game, alot of things already don't make sense, female armor is only a very very small portion of it. I mean if something is not going to make sense to begin with, why not have skimpy armor? I think that is pretty logical.
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
See that thing in red? Read it again. You know zip point squat about medieval armor, weapons, or the reality of combat. Before reciting the fairy tales they teach the gullible talk to people who still forge, wear and fight in medieval reproduction armor. The average Full suit of combar armor weighed 40-60 pounds including all the padding. Metal armor is actually lighter than leather for equivalent protection. The average longsword weighed three to sevenpounds and could penetrate armor if used correctly. "Heavy plate" is a myth. The only place anything like it was ever used was in tournaments and even then it wasn't that heavy. It was Never used on the field of battle. Main-Guache is a parry weapon used in the late middle ages and early renaissance against unarmored opponents in streetfights and affairs of honor not battlefields. It literally means "left hand" and was originally used with a rapier in the right. By that time the only armor you were likely to see in combat was a chest piece and a helmet. Full suits of armor were made pointless by the crossbow.
To butt in, Ive actually wore a full plate medievel replica armor used by the knights, it was so heavy. I cant imagine getting up if I fell and was exhausted. They were meant for the horseback, theres no way you could do much on foot with that weight crushing down on you. Noticed that the armour for the ground troops were more made of chainmail then plate...
As for history heavy cavalry was something the french and the brittish used in all their armies as crush weapons. For the brittish it was the only thing preventing the scotts from claiming their country. Sure it happened in the end but still to say full plate cavalery didnt exist is bull. It is true however that crossbows and muskets pretty much spelled the death of its role since the armour didnt give any real protection and slowed its bearer down. But the crossbow didnt kill the full plate, it was merely a weapon against it, the musket put the final nail in the coffin. But that was sometime around the 17th centuary
I would Imagine what you wore was Gothic plate, the cerimonial armor set. Now that you really would'ent fight in. Then again it was never really designed to fight in. The combat-plate was'ent that bad. 60-80lb is not alot really when you concider that on average a modern soldier carrys 90lb of gear into combat. Most people are also under the misconception that swords were really heavy, which is simply not the case. 3lb or so was the average longsword weight, less than the 7.9lb of an unloaded M16.
Most plate armor's were hammered thin, since it was designed to stop sword edges, not pircing weapons that puncture. Its not really all that heavy. Modern re-enactments usually use Airplane Aluminum (Such as the SCA) which is a little lighter and although bulky and somewhat cumbersome the armor is not really that *heavy*. Only the helms are pretty heavy (having to measure up to SCA rules and regs) Hell if my wife (who's 5'4") can run around in a full suit of recreated heavy armor with a crossbow (shes an SCA girl /sigh) its not THAT heavy !
*And yes she could get up if knocked down pretty easy. No she does not wear Gothic plate (which I've already said was not combat wear) its period 15th Century armor.
To butt in, Ive actually wore a full plate medievel replica armor used by the knights, it was so heavy. I cant imagine getting up if I fell and was exhausted. They were meant for the horseback, theres no way you could do much on foot with that weight crushing down on you. Noticed that the armour for the ground troops were more made of chainmail then plate... As for history heavy cavalry was something the french and the brittish used in all their armies as crush weapons. For the brittish it was the only thing preventing the scotts from claiming their country. Sure it happened in the end but still to say full plate cavalery didnt exist is bull. It is true however that crossbows and muskets pretty much spelled the death of its role since the armour didnt give any real protection and slowed its bearer down. But the crossbow didnt kill the full plate, it was merely a weapon against it, the musket put the final nail in the coffin. But that was sometime around the 17th centuary
60 pounds of added weight will exhaust you more quickly. It won't hold you pinned to the ground if you're used to the weight. There was a SCA duke who could do a backflip in his. It's just not that heavy. No one ever said heavy calvary didn't exist. The whole needing a hoist to get on your horse thing was started by Mark Twain though. Heavy horse was relatively useless in Scotland because the ground was so soft in the lowlands and steep in the highlands. The Scotts were prevented from claiming their country by disunity more than anything else. Also no horse will charge a fomed square with pikes willingly. It's just not in their nature. That was used to great effect right up into the Napoleonic era. The matchlock musket put the final nail in the coffin but heavy armor was a dead issue long befpre that. All cavalry was a main battlefield anachronism by 17th century. Good for scouting and unprepared or broken infantry but useless against a prepared position. Horses are just too easy to kill on the battlefield. The nobility just wouldn't give up on the idea until WW I though.
Haha your mostly right. But it was'ent Mark Twain, it was the british Music hall comedys that prompted the misconception about needing a hoist to get ontop your horse. Mark Twain just brought the misconception to the masses with his *Yankee in King Arthurs Court"
Early Crossbows and Gunpowder weapons actually prompted better plate armors. Initial steel plate could deflect Crossbows and Gunpower weapons unless it was at very close range. The Musket was the nail in the coffin for plate bearing cavelry. Of course Cavelry still remained an important part of military conflict for many years after (just without the cumbersome armor - It being reduced to at best a breast/back plate and helm.
Comments
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
The idea that a fallen knight in plate armor is like a turtle flipped onto its back is faulty. Assuming the armor fits well, an active person loses very little in the way of mobility. Obviously you wouldn't want to walk a tight-rope while wearing it, but mounting/dismounting, and more importantly, combat movement is not impacted to any serious degree. Our ancestors weren't stupid. Plate wouldn't have been a dominant force on the battlefield for hundreds of years if it reduced combatants to shuffling about, golem-like, merely hoping that somebody with a blacksmith's hammer didn't manage to side-step behind them and smash their helmets in.
Plate is hot to wear, and heat-exhaustion due to over-exertion can be a real problem though.
Fortune favors the bold.
I find it amusing that this is THE thing that some people find unrealistic in a Fantasy game. Everything else makes sense and is believable? lol
It is absolutely true that full plate protects the body better than the skimpy armor on contact by a weapon. But it is not as clear cut as everyone seem to think. Agility is just as good of a defence as being protected from head to toe in steel. Just wanted to point out that sometime less is more, it is always situational. If you think beeing in combat with 100+ pounds of protection on you wont affect your stamina, quickness ect maybe you should try it out. ;-)
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
Main-Gauge was an off-hand dagger used in conjunction with a Rapier as a fencing weapon. They were not carried by priests for coup-de-grace. It often had a basket hilt and was a parrying weapon.
Your correct however that priests often carried daggers to "mercy-kill" mortally injured knights , the thrust was generally done up through the armpit though, the Gorget protected the neckline.
As to other posters, Armor progressed in the standard arms-race method getting heavier over time, but it always kept a good degree of mobility. Even a full suit of gothic plate (late middle ages - 15th cen) was pretty mobile for a trained user. Plate lost fashion pretty quickly when longbows / Crossbows (they were labeled as the "devils weapon" by the church) and later gunpower weapons hit the field with thier penetration invalidating its usage.
Modern kevlar etc is not as heavy as full plate or even heavy chainmail, we have advanced somewhat from that stage. Although it can be argued that the modern soldier does hump more gear into combat with thier weapons, ammo, kit bags etc. Modern soldiers are geared out to be as self-sufficient as possible .. knights were not.
Its simply wrong to say a knight who was knocked over was "like a turtle" .. far from it unless you killed him pretty quickly they would regain thier footing. It is accurate to say that concussion trauma became more an issue in full plate. (Hence hammers, heavy mace etc) However, the sword was still caught up in the arm's race against plate in variations such as the Estoc, designed to combat foes in plate armor. (Being long, thin with a point and virtually no "blade" it was designed to pierce plate or slip through the over-lapping plates)
<Edit> And for the OP,
It depends on the game for me. A high fantasy type game (Everquest etc) I really dont mind the skimpy armor as "magic" can explain away just about anything. A Low fantasy or Sci-Fi game I prefure a more realistic look as it fits the setting better. So for me its about the setting of the game, as long as it does not break the theme of the game Its fine (IMO) ...
L2dictionary... Fantasy vs. Reality.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fantasy
"5 : the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need <an object of fantasy>; also : a mental image or a series of mental images (as a daydream) so created <sexual fantasies of adolescence>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reality
"1 : the quality or state of being real"
In reality, I don't go up to people with Exclamation marks above their heads to ask them what they want me to do so I can get money and xp. Even if they did I doubt that they would want me to kill 5 cats so I can bring them their paws so they can make a wearable trinket for me that would give me +'s to my magic resistance.
In reality, though not personally tested, when people die they are dead. They do not respawn at their last bind point, or ressurect themselves in graveyards with rez sickness.
In reality, even if you had 20 people in full plate with swords and shields, a 100m tall living, breathing, dragon would make you piss and shit your pants, especially while it's biting you in half despite you being in head to toe metal armor.
In reality, people don't throw lightning bolts or fireballs.
In reality, you don't see women wearing skimpy clothing that's totally useless and just for the sheer purpose of showing off their ass or cleavage...
Oh wait, I guess you do.
What was your argument again?
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I know. Its one of those 10 rules of video games, something about "a tank top has more armor than a full suit of plate". Its very frustrating to most female gamers, but I don't know how it will change unless game marketers realize that there is a large female (and mature male) player base. Obviously, studies have shown this quite clearly. But the marketing teams just have not caught up.
Keep posting the complaint! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!
In regards to MMORPGs being a fantasy genre, I see plenty of modern and sci-fi games on The Big List. Also, one person's "fantasy" (dictionary definition) is certainly not always another person's, and marketing should take this into account.
It doesn't have to make sense. It's a game after all.
Male armor doesn't make any sense either, you should be fully clothed as a warrior. Even if you can't find a full set of plate, you should patch the rest with leather or chain. It's not just female armor, people just focus on that because the MMO population is still predominantly male.
Fighters are supposed to be very lean too, not very muscular, (see the Roman armies), most warrior in MMO are much too muscular, they weigh way too much to travel those distances.
I know. Its one of those 10 rules of video games, something about "a tank top has more armor than a full suit of plate". Its very frustrating to most female gamers, but I don't know how it will change unless game marketers realize that there is a large female (and mature male) player base. Obviously, studies have shown this quite clearly. But the marketing teams just have not caught up.
Keep posting the complaint! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!
In regards to MMORPGs being a fantasy genre, I see plenty of modern and sci-fi games on The Big List. Also, one person's "fantasy" (dictionary definition) is certainly not always another person's, and marketing should take this into account.
Plenty of mature females I've gamed with actually enjoy the looks of their skimpy armor. I'm no kid that sits around jerking it all day to a toon in a game, either... but I have to admit, that occasionally, the random sexy toon passing by is pleasant to see. Not all games do it in a way that's immersion breaking, either, and it isn't always just so out of place you go "WTF IS THAT DOING HERE?!" Speaking of immersion, what world do people live in where they never see an attractive woman? I'd personally hate playing a game where there was hardly any distinction between male and female toons, and in most games not all female armor is so revealing. There's plenty of degrees of skimpyness. There's plenty of games that are extreme, and all females wear thong bikinis, but those are generally the easily avoided Asian grinders in my experience.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
Main-Gauge was an off-hand dagger used in conjunction with a Rapier as a fencing weapon. They were not carried by priests for coup-de-grace. It traditionally had a basket hilt and was a parrying weapon.
Your correct however that priests often carried daggers to "mercy-kill" mortally injured knights , the thrust was generally done up through the armpit though, the Gorget protected the neckline.
As to other posters, Armor progressed in the standard arms-race method getting heavier over time, but it always kept a good degree of mobility. Even a full suit of gothic plate (late middle ages - 15th cen) was pretty mobile for a trained user. Plate lost fashion pretty quickly when longbows / Crossbows (they were labeled as the "devils weapon" by the church) and later gunpower weapons hit the field with thier penetration invalidating its usage.
Modern kevlar etc is not as heavy as full plate or even heavy chainmail, we have advanced somewhat from that stage. Although it can be argued that the modern soldier does hump more gear into combat with thier weapons, ammo, kit bags etc. Modern soldiers are geared out to be as self-sufficient as possible .. knights were not.
Its simply wrong to say a knight who was knocked over was "like a turtle" .. far from it unless you killed him pretty quickly they would regain thier footing. It is accurate to say that concussion trauma became more an issue in full plate. (Hence hammers, heavy mace etc) However, the sword was still caught up in the arm's race against plate in variations such as the Estoc, designed to combat foes in plate armor. (Being long, thin with a point and virtually no "blade" it was designed to pierce plate or slip through the over-lapping plates)
<Edit> And for the OP,
It depends on the game for me. A high fantasy type game (Everquest etc) I really dont mind the skimpy armor as "magic" can explain away just about anything. A Low fantasy or Sci-Fi game I prefure a more realistic look as it fits the setting better. So for me its about the setting of the game, as long as it does not break the theme of the game Its fine (IMO) ...
Ahh sorry I got confused about Maine Gauche and Misericorde. They are both used tha way historically, yeah Misericorde is the ones that is the correct thin blade. Thanks for correcting me.
Actually I didn't say it was like a turtle. (Did I say turtle? I thought I only said it was hard to get up)
Plate armor when people get knocked down it can vary, if they get knocked down straight up, then yes concussion is also part of it, but that was why they wore chain or sometimes pads under it. However, when a armored knight falls down, the main thing that prevent them from getting up fast is that plate armor are bulky and the joints are hard to move in. They either have to roll to a position on all 4 and get up (which is usually better) or use their hand to support their weight then get up normally from sitting position. However, no enemy is going to just let them get up, a simple kick or a sweep of weapon knocks them down again. Basically a suit of plate armor can be considered both armor and coffin, if they lose what little mobility they have, then the armor feel more like something that hinder them than protecting them.
Just think of an astronaut suit, even those suits are hard to move in under gravity, much less a bulky suit of metal. (Which does not even conform with your movements much) Unlike Ironman or some morder sci-fi armor, the bulk is enough to make you as agile as a 60 year old man. (I don't mean those super healthy ones either) However they consider the superior defense worth it since an army of armored knights are much harder to defeat. Only down side would be they are very hard to make back in the day since most of those are made by hand.
Armored knights can only charge for a very short time, due to weight and impact of running, but that running speed is rather pathetic to begin with anyways compare to someone wearing light armor. Plus the more strength you exert the faster you get tired in a suit of plate armor, but I think this was pretty obvious anyways.
I think we are derailing a bit so I am gonna stop reply to every little thing. Main thing I want to say is that I did not say turtle.
That's for certain. Now if we need to go down the it has to make sense road, then all the other stuff must come with it. Ammo, carrying limits, real time travel, etc.
I don't have a problem with people being more attractive in games. Or showing a bit more skin than necessary. It is the extreme cases that bother me - just like you're saying: thong bikinis. Or, getting some fantastic rare drop armor and having it appear as an incredible suit of plate armor on male characters and a metal bra on female characters.
I think there is a happy medium. Or, they could do more fan service for female players
looks like you have some issues to deal with eh, besides who cares its a game.
I'm into Guro, don't judge me!! >:O
I know. Its one of those 10 rules of video games, something about "a tank top has more armor than a full suit of plate". Its very frustrating to most female gamers, but I don't know how it will change unless game marketers realize that there is a large female (and mature male) player base. Obviously, studies have shown this quite clearly. But the marketing teams just have not caught up.
Keep posting the complaint! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!
In regards to MMORPGs being a fantasy genre, I see plenty of modern and sci-fi games on The Big List. Also, one person's "fantasy" (dictionary definition) is certainly not always another person's, and marketing should take this into account.
Aaaaaactually to be honest. Most have and do.
Lets see... My High Elf Cleric in Classic EQ had a suit of full plate armor. She looked like a shiny statue with no bits exposed. That was back in '97. Then the same with EQ2.
My female Gnome Warrior in WoW, looked like a meanacing, full metal turtle. No naughty parts exposed.
So you see, from past to present, there are some that don't... and some do. With marketing, you tend to choose a target audience to whom you cater to.
Let's take for instance... women's clothing here in the real world. For what actual purpose, other than eye candy, would or should a woman wear anything that would hint at or blatantly expose cleavage, or their rear-ends? When a woman in short shorts that rides just above her cheeks bends over or squats in a public places "just to pick something up" she's not aware that her string thong with a cherry emblem on the back is popping up out? There are people that make that clothing for impractical purposes, for no other reason, than for a woman to wear and show off her body. Hell there are even clothing lines for young girls that encourage "Prosti-tot" fashion. Marketing is VERY aware, my friend. Otherwise, women fashion wouldn't go beyond islamic garbs of hijab head covers and jilbab robe material... because what's the point OTHER than to show off ones stuff and be "impractical"?
In comparison, it wouldn't be THAT HARD to fathom that perhaps the armor that women wear in a mythical setting is just as practical as women's clothing is today. So why do it? Because they can I guess.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
"Main thing I want to say is that I did not say turtle."
Indeed you did not say that, Hjor did a few posts back and my Turtle comment was to him not you, sorry if there was some confusion there !
"Misericorde" = I knew there was a specific name for the daggers used I just could'ent think of it lol. You've saved me some hunting because it was bugging me
As for the plate armor discussion, I disagree here. Its not actually that hard to move about it. Now I've never worn a suit of Gothic plate (thats the stuff you see in movies - Camelot and the like) but I have worn a suit of half plate. (The joys of growing up near a castle in England
) It alone is fairly heavy .. but when worn the weight is pretty evenly spred and movement came pretty naturally after an "adjustment" period. Thats to said I did'ent stand up and do cartwheels but I could move about pretty easy. Given a few years training in the stuff I'm sure it would come as second nature. The worst part about Half plate armor was infact the helm .. the one I wore was a full helm and it really impacts your line of sight and Peripheral vision.
Sure I could'ent "Spring up" if knocked down in it .. but it was'ent as difficult as you'd expect to regain your footing.
The suits of Gothic plate they did have there (Bare in mind most of this stuff was purly cerimonial and had never seen a battle field) was pretty articulated and moved freely. Thats the stuff you see in the movies, most movies would have you believe that Gothic plate was common in the 8th-12th C when infact it was'ent even made until the 15th C and was VERY rare with only the richest nobles commisioning sets of it, and as I said before, it was mostly Cerimonial. Unfortunatly we were not allowed to mess with it (Antiques and all) so I cant say that it would be *easy* to move around it .. just that it would'ent be as hard as alot of people assume.
Gothic plate = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maximilienne-p1000557.jpg
Some info on plate armors = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suit_of_armour
Pretty good read and pretty factual too. Yer its a wiki so take it with a pinch of salt, its pretty close to the truth though (from my, admittedly, limited exposure to plate armors)
What I find most interesting about this very old debate is that while people are debating whether or not it is realistic that female armor looks more like an iron clad bakini, these same people have no trouble....
It's fantasy. Sex sells. This predates video games. Take a look at any RPG artwork from the 80s and you will see many different artists that have painted scenes depicting warrior women in skimpy clothing. Fantasy art goes back much further with simular imagery.
Fantasy, is the key word. It's not supposed to completely resemble reality. If it did, it wouldn't be a fantasy RPG. It would be a historical RPG.
the only time i have ever seen a chick in full plate was Hellgate London (pretty sure that chick was wearing full plate) and Fallout 3 (tjhose paladin people) and to be honest...they looked kick ass.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I honestly think HG:L had the armor down. I don't care if what you think of the game itself, I loved their armor for the Templars and Marksmen. Both Male and Female.
Edit, also some marksman stuff.
2nd edit- in game templar
Agreed on both! HG:L armor was AMAZING.
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
See that thing in red? Read it again. You know zip point squat about medieval armor, weapons, or the reality of combat. Before reciting the fairy tales they teach the gullible talk to people who still forge, wear and fight in medieval reproduction armor. The average Full suit of combar armor weighed 40-60 pounds including all the padding. Metal armor is actually lighter than leather for equivalent protection. The average longsword weighed three to sevenpounds and could penetrate armor if used correctly. "Heavy plate" is a myth. The only place anything like it was ever used was in tournaments and even then it wasn't that heavy. It was Never used on the field of battle. Main-Guache is a parry weapon used in the late middle ages and early renaissance against unarmored opponents in streetfights and affairs of honor not battlefields. It literally means "left hand" and was originally used with a rapier in the right. By that time the only armor you were likely to see in combat was a chest piece and a helmet. Full suits of armor were made pointless by the crossbow.
To butt in, Ive actually wore a full plate medievel replica armor used by the knights, it was so heavy. I cant imagine getting up if I fell and was exhausted. They were meant for the horseback, theres no way you could do much on foot with that weight crushing down on you. Noticed that the armour for the ground troops were more made of chainmail then plate...
As for history heavy cavalry was something the french and the brittish used in all their armies as crush weapons. For the brittish it was the only thing preventing the scotts from claiming their country. Sure it happened in the end but still to say full plate cavalery didnt exist is bull. It is true however that crossbows and muskets pretty much spelled the death of its role since the armour didnt give any real protection and slowed its bearer down. But the crossbow didnt kill the full plate, it was merely a weapon against it, the musket put the final nail in the coffin. But that was sometime around the 17th centuary
It's magic and technology far beyond the real world, duh.
We're playing games where you shoot lightning bolts from your fingers, and suits of armor with jet packs and laser beams, and you can't believe skimpy armor can protect women wearing it?
WTF?!!
Some games cover the ladies up. EQ2 comes to mind.
I don't necessarily want my characters running around in a chainmail thong, I also don't want to wear ugly overalls and oven mits. (I mean, I do wear oven mitts when I am taking stuff out of the oven, but I don't walk around in them.) Sex sells, sure... Also, it's fantasy game, and having characters that look like that is as close as a lot of us ladies are ever going to get to looking like that.
There's a thing about realism... it's generally not fun. If it were, we'd all turn off our gaming machines and go have another big dose of REAL instead.
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Ah HGL and Fury could have been wonderful games. I miss them both.
Anyways, it isn't just about that sex sells, it's the fact that half nekkid woman turn guys heads. Especially gamer guys. So they check it out. Look at the blog that dana did about bewbs a week or so ago. So much of it was spot on.
There are some games where female models in armor look great with what you would expect to be good armor covering them. Many games this is not so. They drab garb giving to females in some games is a big put off for those who like to stand out, look different, or just plain look cute. But being half naked in the best gear is silly in itself. There is a point where it can look great, and wanted, but sometimes it is just taken way too far.
Clearly you've never worn combat armor. You would be amazed at how lighte and thin it is. Let me put it in perspective for you. The body armor troops wear now is heavier than the armor they wore a thousand years ago. If what you were saying were true no one ever would have worn armor it would have never been invented. Skimpy armor isn't logical. It's an affectation. Just like the huge cumbersome shoulder pads you see in WoW. No one would wear such a thing in real combat.
I am not talking about modern armor >_>;. See that thing in blue?
Current armor are of course light and durable, they also are able to absorb very high impact and heat. They are meant to keep you mobile while keeping the highest degree of protection and comfort. It is a product of technology, if a game is a setting in high tech background, then of course. However, medieval type fantasy genre it just does not quite work, of course I suppose they can say they enchanted it with magic, but that is another issue all together.
Actually it is true, the reason why medieval armors were invented was because they can stand up to alot of abuse, arrows have very hard time piercing the combination of plate and also the chain they wear under it. Swords and one handed weapons does next to nothing versus heavy plate. Only thing that worked against plate armor back then was impact force that knocks the opponent down such as great swords, hammers, huge axes, giant spears, etc. Oil and fire also work very well.
Once knocked down, a fully armored medieval knight is rather a pathetic sight, they have hard time getting up and is at the mercy of Maine Gauche type of thin dagger weapon that can fit between the gaps of plate armor. Maine Gauche is also a weapon used for delivering a merciful death to a wounded enemy soldier, usually used between the gaps between the helm and the suit to pierce the throat.
Shoulder pads issue in WoW is always funny, mainly because shoulder pad of that size is not even useful and only get in the way, so on this point I totally agree with you.
See that thing in red? Read it again. You know zip point squat about medieval armor, weapons, or the reality of combat. Before reciting the fairy tales they teach the gullible talk to people who still forge, wear and fight in medieval reproduction armor. The average Full suit of combar armor weighed 40-60 pounds including all the padding. Metal armor is actually lighter than leather for equivalent protection. The average longsword weighed three to sevenpounds and could penetrate armor if used correctly. "Heavy plate" is a myth. The only place anything like it was ever used was in tournaments and even then it wasn't that heavy. It was Never used on the field of battle. Main-Guache is a parry weapon used in the late middle ages and early renaissance against unarmored opponents in streetfights and affairs of honor not battlefields. It literally means "left hand" and was originally used with a rapier in the right. By that time the only armor you were likely to see in combat was a chest piece and a helmet. Full suits of armor were made pointless by the crossbow.
To butt in, Ive actually wore a full plate medievel replica armor used by the knights, it was so heavy. I cant imagine getting up if I fell and was exhausted. They were meant for the horseback, theres no way you could do much on foot with that weight crushing down on you. Noticed that the armour for the ground troops were more made of chainmail then plate...
As for history heavy cavalry was something the french and the brittish used in all their armies as crush weapons. For the brittish it was the only thing preventing the scotts from claiming their country. Sure it happened in the end but still to say full plate cavalery didnt exist is bull. It is true however that crossbows and muskets pretty much spelled the death of its role since the armour didnt give any real protection and slowed its bearer down. But the crossbow didnt kill the full plate, it was merely a weapon against it, the musket put the final nail in the coffin. But that was sometime around the 17th centuary
I would Imagine what you wore was Gothic plate, the cerimonial armor set. Now that you really would'ent fight in. Then again it was never really designed to fight in. The combat-plate was'ent that bad. 60-80lb is not alot really when you concider that on average a modern soldier carrys 90lb of gear into combat. Most people are also under the misconception that swords were really heavy, which is simply not the case. 3lb or so was the average longsword weight, less than the 7.9lb of an unloaded M16.
Most plate armor's were hammered thin, since it was designed to stop sword edges, not pircing weapons that puncture. Its not really all that heavy. Modern re-enactments usually use Airplane Aluminum (Such as the SCA) which is a little lighter and although bulky and somewhat cumbersome the armor is not really that *heavy*. Only the helms are pretty heavy (having to measure up to SCA rules and regs) Hell if my wife (who's 5'4") can run around in a full suit of recreated heavy armor with a crossbow (shes an SCA girl /sigh) its not THAT heavy !
*And yes she could get up if knocked down pretty easy. No she does not wear Gothic plate (which I've already said was not combat wear) its period 15th Century armor.
60 pounds of added weight will exhaust you more quickly. It won't hold you pinned to the ground if you're used to the weight. There was a SCA duke who could do a backflip in his. It's just not that heavy. No one ever said heavy calvary didn't exist. The whole needing a hoist to get on your horse thing was started by Mark Twain though. Heavy horse was relatively useless in Scotland because the ground was so soft in the lowlands and steep in the highlands. The Scotts were prevented from claiming their country by disunity more than anything else. Also no horse will charge a fomed square with pikes willingly. It's just not in their nature. That was used to great effect right up into the Napoleonic era. The matchlock musket put the final nail in the coffin but heavy armor was a dead issue long befpre that. All cavalry was a main battlefield anachronism by 17th century. Good for scouting and unprepared or broken infantry but useless against a prepared position. Horses are just too easy to kill on the battlefield. The nobility just wouldn't give up on the idea until WW I though.
Haha your mostly right. But it was'ent Mark Twain, it was the british Music hall comedys that prompted the misconception about needing a hoist to get ontop your horse. Mark Twain just brought the misconception to the masses with his *Yankee in King Arthurs Court"
Early Crossbows and Gunpowder weapons actually prompted better plate armors. Initial steel plate could deflect Crossbows and Gunpower weapons unless it was at very close range. The Musket was the nail in the coffin for plate bearing cavelry. Of course Cavelry still remained an important part of military conflict for many years after (just without the cumbersome armor - It being reduced to at best a breast/back plate and helm.