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POLL: Gameguard
SomeOldBloke
Member UncommonPosts: 2,167
in Aion
Who will not play Aion because of Gameguard issues
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I haven't had any issues. I would.. however like to see what can influence gamegaurd -- keyboards, mice, other game controllers... ??? I'm unsure of what *exactly* gameguard is. Though... I'm sure it will not allow "add-ons"
What's wrong with the poll here?
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/253/view/forums/thread/250838/Aion-ANTI-Game-Guard-Voting.html
I'm not going to be like Acorn and vote on the same issue multiple times.
youtube.com/gcidogmeat
Creating polls is dumb. Theres already an "offical" one mentioned above.
PS: I would vote for "Would probably still buy, though prefer not to have gameguard"
Not everyone visits, or is a member of, the beta forums.
Will get it having no clue what GG will do to my computer. I never used such program.
Gameguard is not the problem.
People are complaining about gameguard when the real problem is their AV / internet security tool.
On my system Aion didn't work with Kaspersky (KIS 2010); I removed and replaced it with NOD32 and now everything is working fine.
Am I in for trouble using free AVG as AV?
Maybe it's not Gameguard. Maybe it is. I think it's more a thing of how NCSoft wants Gameguard to work with their client.
Gameguard works fine for Rohan and The Chronicles of Spellborn on my computer. Same firewall software and anti-virus software running. Something is wrong with their implementation of it.
I'm not going to change my setup just to play one game that doesn't work with my set up. Aion seems like it could be a fun game, but it's not special enough (IMO) for me to consider moving the furniture to make room for it.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
Gameguard is fairly described as a rootkit so use it at your own peril, and if you are not at least very competent with Windows I would not use it at all (if you know what you are doing then it can be contained and removed).
Below pretty much sums it up but there is more info in a topic from the TCoS board here. Whether you want to say GameGuard is malicious or not is debatable, but the methods it employs are most certainly classifiable as rootkit and malware like. Worst of all it is installed without user consent and doesn't provide an uninstaller nor does it completely uninstall on removing the host game.
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I use AV as well and i havent hand one error with GG as of yet. (i've played all CB s and the OB)
If your AV wrongly flags software as rootkit it doesn't mean it is.
People are using lousy AVs with outdated with/and/or not up to date virus definitions.
Kaspersky is very poor on this one. Gameguard is used in dozens of games, the least they could do is update their defs.
Of course, what were you thinking?
Gameguard needs to use low level systems calls to catch/block hacks/botting/cheat tools that work on those lower system levels. (of course it doesn't block all of them, but something is better than nothing).
Nothing surprising here. Update your system security tool or use one that works properly. And if I were you I would ask for a refund from kaspersky.
Gameguard IS the problem...
There are a lot of good anti hack programs in other games that do not install hidden drivers in your system that are not uninstallable...
I have Kaspersky 2010, it's one of the best anti-viruses out there, I will not uninstall it and get a cheap AV just to get GG working when infact, GG is the problem.
GG is one of the most hated anti-hack programs on the market, it does not stop anyone from hacking, it installs 2 hidden drivers in your system, and is always bugging the games.
EQ, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, and many more p2p games that have integrated anti-hack programs that you do not even know the existence, they never cause any problems to anyone and they work at 99% of the time. A game as big as Aion, they already have 5 mill subs in Asia, they will probably get another 3-4 mill in EU and NA, and NcSoft insists on using a crappy software like GG? I really don't get it...
I have 3 games that use gameguard, unfortunately GG is causing me a huge problem, every time I play one of these games, and then logoff the game, back to the desktop, I can't do anything on my computer anymore, all I can do is reboot. I tried all the methods to uninstall GG and none work. All I can really do is Format my HD, which is really stupid. Right now I am not playing any of the games with GG because of that and I will probably format in a couple of months because I already formatted my computer 2 months ago. And then no more GG games for me, that's for sure...
Go to any f2p game's forums that uses GG and you'll see that half the forums are flooded with complaints about GG. Go to any other games forums that do not use GG, and you rarely see anyone complaining about having problems with other anti-hack systems. That is a proof that GG is a crappy product that must cease to exist.
No, the problem is Kaspersky 2010 (Kapsersky 2009 works).
Kaspersky 2010 doesn't work properly. It automatically adds rules and you can neither change nor remove them (Kaspersky 2009 doesn't have this bug). The only option is to uninstall it, disabling is not enough.
It's bugged, what do you want? Call kaspersky and complain to them, not here.
I had KIS 2010, I know where you are coming form.
There are dozens of users who have complained on the kaspersky forums. Hopefully they'll push a fix out soon (unfortunately kaspersky has sometimes been known to take months to fix issues, we'll see how it works out).
There are a lot of good anti-viruses that work properly. Check out NOD32 for one.
As for the uninstall part, it uninstalls properly on my system.
Yes its one of the best, but its bugged (probably because it's still too new).
Go back to ksapersky 2009 if you cannot do without kaspersky.
Your bugged AV is the problem.
And you don't need to use a cheap AV. There are a couple AVs at the top with kaspersky; NOD32 is one of them and it works fine.
Yes it does not prevent everything but still it prevents many hacking tools. Imho, doing something against the hacks is better than doing nothing.
Well I am sorry to say that you are wrong. In KIS 2010, you can change rules for programs. All you need to do is go to settings, firewall, then settings again, and you get a list of all the software, you click on the software you want and do add and voila!
GG and Aion have full access to my computer unfortunately. But Gameguard still bugs, and the problem is not Kaspersky, it's GG that is just a bad buggy software.
I don't even know why you are defending GG. Before replying, go and read all the bad stuff that GG is causing to a lot of people, and I am not just talking about our AV giving it access, I am talking about the software giving people a hard time in a lot of technical aspects.
Just choose 4-5 random games that use GG and go to their technical assistance forums and look at the number of posts about GG.
Just the problem that GG is causing me that I described in my previous response is a huge problem. That is a problem that no program should ever be able to cause.
GG is just a bad apple, and nothing will ever change that, it is the worst anti-hack software out there and it will always be, period.
I just hope NcSoft will decide not to keep it and integrate an anti-hack system directly into Aion like ALL other p2p games do.
Ok this is some info I got from Microsoft bout Gamegard. Thers is no cut and paste as I talked to the tech on the phone. If you are running Vista...there is a KNOWN compatablity issue with Gameguard. Some programs INCLUDING Microsoft's own malware removal program, has been known to detect Gameguard as malware. It doesnt happen all the time and the tech told me it seems more common with the Vista Home Premium versions both 32 and 64 bit.
I also contacted ATI bout heat issues on my card only showing up with AION and soon as I said AION the tech groaned and said ..Gameguard is also affecting the ATI Radeon HD cards..guess what i have.
There is no know fix yet and
ATI tech said there may not be one since Gameguard isnt cooperating with devleopers to find a solution.
Yeah..GAmeguard can cause headaches for some of us and I hoep soo NCSoft does something but i nto holdig my breath
Man, get yourself informed before posting. At the very least, check the kaspersky forums.
This has been a known problem with KIS 2010 for sometime now.
If KIS 2010 worked properly this is how it should be, yes.
The problem is that KIS 2010 does not work properly (2009 does).
Sometimes it automatically adds rules you can't change/remove (this is what it did to me and to dozens of other users - its a bug). These rules then conflict and you have the problem we see with gameguard and some other software.
... and then you also have the problem that it fails to disable itself properly when you manually disable it.
KIS 2010 was obviously rushed out the door too early.
That's what I'm saying, this is due to the KIS 2010 bug -> the forced rules conflict with your rules and you can do nothing about it.
You can go back to kaspersky 2009 until they fix their software or use another AV.
WOW, do you even read before posting? I will try to say it more slowly...
KIS 2010 i s n o t t h e p r o b l e m, I n e v e r h a d a n y i s s u e s r e l a t i n g t o k a s p e r s k y. R e a d m y
f i r s t p o s t i n t h i s t o p i c a n d y o u w i l l s e e t h a t m y p r o b l e m h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h m y
a n t i - v i r u s.
Stop knitpicking my posts, read the whole post and you'll see that I'm telling you that GG is a piece of sh*t of a program and it is causing ALL SORTS of bugs, not only A V bugs.
D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d m e n o w ?
If im being honest and remember I have no side on this "debate" but spacing your letters like that actually made it harder for me to read....Just providing you some feedback to your question.
If im being honest and remember I have no side on this "debate" but spacing your letters like that actually made it harder for me to read....Just providing you some feedback to your question.
LOL! Thanks for the feedback
I will know for the next time...
As I said:
-> KIS 2010 is the problem. This is confirmed on the kaspersky forums.
Because you "n e v e r h a d a n y i s s u e s r e l a t i n g t o k a s p e r s k y" is completely irrelevant (gameguard has to use low level system access to block hacks that use low level access - and once you are in low level problems and conflicts can happen in some circumstances - even more so if an internet security tool has a bug with its rules management, like the *newly released* (aka "not properly tested") KIS 2010 (KIS 2009 is fine).
That said, if you uninstall KIS 2010 and it still doesn't work, then you probably also have another conflict on your system (or perhaps even a bug with gameguard - everything is possible, remember, we are testing beta software). But until you do, it is really pointless to talk more about this.
Anyway, in my case I had 2 choices:
1. Act and replace KIS 2010 with NOD32 (KIS 2009 would also have been an option). -> and PLAY Aion. (this took less than 5 minutes)
OR
2. whine and complain on forums refusing to remove KIS 2010 -> and NOT play Aion.
Guess which option I took?
As I said:
-> KIS 2010 is the problem. This is confirmed on the kaspersky forums.
Because you "n e v e r h a d a n y i s s u e s r e l a t i n g t o k a s p e r s k y" is completely irrelevant (gameguard has to use low level system access to block hacks that use low level access - and once you are in low level problems and conflicts can happen in some circumstances - even more so if an internet security tool has a bug with its rules management, like the *newly released* (aka "not properly tested") KIS 2010 (KIS 2009 is fine).
That said, if you uninstall KIS 2010 and it still doesn't work, then you probably also have another conflict on your system (or perhaps even a bug with gameguard - everything is possible, remember, we are testing beta software). But until you do, it is really pointless to talk more about this.
Anyway, in my case I had 2 choices:
1. Act and replace KIS 2010 with NOD32 (KIS 2009 would also have been an option). -> and PLAY Aion. (this took less than 5 minutes)
OR
2. whine and complain on forums refusing to remove KIS 2010 -> and NOT play Aion.
Guess which option I took?
So if I understand right, you are saying that the years of GG bugging games and people's computers is all KIS 2010's fault? Even though it didn't even exist back then?
You say if I downgrade to 2009 and continue having problems, it's still not GG, but something else in my computer?
Or maybe all the people who are having problems with GG and who are not using Kaspersky, is that also Kasperskys fault? Kaspersky 2010 is bugging people's computers even though they never had it on their computer?
Everyone who is having problems have ONE thing in common, and it is GG. People have Kaspersky, NOD32, Bitdefender, Norton, McAfee, AVG and other AVs, and they are having problems, but that is not GGs fault, it's kaspersky that is causing everyone to have problems right?
If you actually read people's posts with problems relating to GG, you will notice that not even 5% of the people having problems have Kaspersky.
But like you said, it is pointless to continue to talk about it, because even if I bring all the arguments of the world, you will answer with Kaspersky is the problem. I wouldn't be surprised if I saw you say that WWII happened because of Kaspersky lol.
My choice has been made a while ago like a lot of people, as long as they use GG, I will not play Aion. If it's a F2P game, it wouldn't matter as much, but an ''elite'' game like Aion should have it's own core anti-hack system. When I pay for a Ferrari, I do not want it to be using Oldsmobile parts.
NcSoft is the biggest mmorpg company in the world, they should not be using crap in their games. This is not their first game, they know what they are doing, or at least I hope they do...
Peace
No, read my post again.
I am saying:
1. If you have KIS 2010 installed we know it is the problem due to a bug in KIS 2010.
2. If KIS 2010 is not installed and you still have problems then it could be something else, or even gameguard -> we are testing beta software, problems can happen. (but to know this you first need to uninstall KIS 2010).
You see, on one side we have people complaining day long about hackers and botters, and on the other side we have people complaining when a program tries to do something against it.
The issue here is that hacks use low level system calls.
To block them, gameguard has to use low level system access. And when you are in low level space issues and/or conflicts can happen in some circumstances (depending on software, drivers, etc.... installed).
Of course gameguard is not perfect, it doesn't prevent everything. But still, it blocks many hacks which is better than doing nothing.
You should direct your anger at the hackers and the botters. This is where the problem is. Gameguard is doing a very complicated job in low level system space to fight the hacks. Without the hackers we wouldn't be talking about this problem today.
Anyway, I hope they will fix this issue asap so that the concerned minority can play without trouble. I know how frustrating it can be.
You should direct your anger at the hackers and the botters. This is where the problem is. Gameguard is doing a very complicated job in low level system space to fight the hacks. Without the hackers we wouldn't be talking about this problem today.
Here you could not be more wrong. Yes, be angry at hackers and cheaters for doing what they do but the responsibility of GameGuard and other such systems from developers rests soley with the developers/publishers as it is they who make the decision to punish legitimate users for the few who act wrongly. Just like with DRM the problem is not that there are those that are not honest, the problem is that companies pass the burden of those dishonest folks on to the honest folks. Developers are the ones who allow a program like GameGuard to install without informing the user and without providing a full uninstaller even leaving it installed and active after a game is uninstalled. Developers are the one who focus resources not on writing more secure code that is less hackable but rather on shifting the resources, lesser and cheaper too, to having users have to prove their legitimacy or honesty with their own resources.
Make no mistake, cheaters and hackers are a problem - but the real problem with these things is the cheap developers who farm out the responsibility of their business challenge to legitimate and responsible users and violate their trust and security in doing so. And on top of all that, the cheaters and hackers (just like those who steal software and music/movies) are hardly daunted by these measures and in no time can hack/cheat/steal whatever they want while legitimate and honest users are further and further burdened and often denied use of what that paid for.
If your AV wrongly flags software as rootkit it doesn't mean it is.
People are using lousy AVs with outdated with/and/or not up to date virus definitions.
Kaspersky is very poor on this one. Gameguard is used in dozens of games, the least they could do is update their defs.
You are simply wrong, GameGuard installs hidden drivers, hidden services, hooks legitimate system processes, and installs without user permission or notification and does not provide an uninstaller - this is the dictionary definition of a rootkit which is a methodology of operation. Again, whether it does anything malicious is irrelevant and not what I am claiming, the methods it uses to do what it does are, however, quite certainly rightly called dangerous and inappropriate.
A/V programs look for activity that is inappropriate, this is called heuristics, and GameGuard gets so commonly flagged because it is acting as malware does usurping the operating system and user to operate. Commercial A/V, like many commercial entities, have built in exceptions for other commercial software - the fact that one or two or three A/V programs do not ignore GameGuard doesn't make its methodology valid or secure, it just means that one commercial entity bowed to pressure from another (typically a lawsuit threat) in order to avoid controversy. GameGuard violates system protocols, flaunts software best practices, and violates the integrity of the operating systems built in security measures.
Of course, what were you thinking?
Gameguard needs to use low level systems calls to catch/block hacks/botting/cheat tools that work on those lower system levels. (of course it doesn't block all of them, but something is better than nothing).
Nothing surprising here. Update your system security tool or use one that works properly. And if I were you I would ask for a refund from kaspersky.
Again, the need or the purpose is irrelevant to the activity. Cops need to do things to catch bad guys and even staunch advocates of personal freedom would acknowledge the need to have police. But that doesn't mean we allow cops to usurp constitutional controls and safeguards that, even if usurped with good intentions, are ripe for abuse. GameGuard first and foremost doesn't stop cheaters as they can easily subvert its detection, so it only affects legitimate and honest users by installing without their consent or knowledge, refusing to uninstall, and usurping the users control of their own system for the purpose of enforcing its programming, whether innocent or not.
Much of this was hashed out in the other thread I cited early on so I won't re hash it all, suffice to say that GameGuard is a major problem, not very effective at stopping cheaters, and highly dubious in its method of operation and hidden installation as well as its lack of an uninstaller - such attributes should by default give a user pause as honest programs do not need to subvert and deceive they very users they are supposed to serve.
I am currently testing it on a virtual machine with Windows 7. My understanding as I start testing is that Windows 7 restricts GameGuard's ability to hook processes and run its hidden drivers, like Vista enforced a stricter security profile than XP so does Windows 7 verse Vista. Due to this GameGuard, until recently, would not even run on Windows 7 as the operating system would not allow it to usurp the system. New versions of GameGuard now work with Windows 7 so I am trying to get a sense of if they have changed the way it works to be more 'legitimate' or simply found other ways to usurp the operating systems security constraints, from what I have read and heard from others I believe they have changed GameGuard on Windows 7 to me less invasive, but that is just based on some initial information and it doesn't to me knowledge change how it works on Vista and XP. So far, A/V programs that detected GameGuard's illicit behavior in XP/Vista are not detecting it Windows 7 from my testing, I am trying to look deeper though to see if the behavior has stopped or simply is not being detected though really knowing that may be hard to answer.
My best advice is if you are on XP or Vista then run GameGuard at your own risk, particularly if you are not an advanced Windows user capable of finding and removing hidden files/drivers/processes. Certainly only run GameGuard on a Vista/XP system that is dedicated to gaming as such hidden applications can basically do anything they want on said system. Again, not saying they are doing illicit things just that the methodology is illicit. If you have Windows 7, or will be getting it when it comes out, then you can probably run GameGuard and feel less vulnerable but I would still want to at least be capable of checking for the aforementioned hidden behaviors and possibly still run only on a dedicated gaming machine.
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I will not be playing Aion due to this (I was on the fence about it before, but GG pushes me to the WNP side firmly). I have experienced this pos program before and it did nothing good for me forcing to spend the better part of 2 evening rebuilding my computer to get it off of it.
I will never run another game (even if all of them use it) that uses that program again.
Just to be fair here, I am not saying this is a malicious program - it is just a question of the method it uses to accomplish its assigned task being inappropriate at best and illicit, even harmful, at worst. understand that illicit and harmful doesn't have to mean the program is farming data and CC numbers and shipping them to Kenya, it can simply mean a program is operating in a way that causes issues or interferes with the normal operation of the operating system or other programs. If you are on the fence, or if you are of the thinking that this is a reason to avoid a game that uses it there is an alternative to just skipping the game (though that is the only way programs like GG will be forced to legitimate methods). You can setup a dual boot and use that second boot of your operating system to run the game - I would recommend that you remove the drive letters form the main install on the dual booted operating system just to make access to that file system harder, and there are ways to hide it completely if you so choose.
The best way to do this is to not install your other operating system to the same disk rather to install it to a second disk, internal or external and to do it while the main disk is disconnected so that the entirety of the operating system, boot files and all, are on this alternate disk. Otherwise, if you are just partitioning and installing to a second partition then the main operating system will be a system disk to the alternate operating system requiring it to be available and visible to the alternate operating system. This is particularly easy if you have remotely modern hardware as all motherboards these days have a simple list in the BIOS that lets you define the main boot disk and they will also let you change that by hitting a key during post and selecting a disk to boot to (typically esc or f12). Programs like EasyBCD also make this very manageable allowing you a graphical interface for BCD (vista and win 7 boot manager) that will allow you to easily create boot menus but keep in mind if you use something like EasyBCD or VistaBootPro your main operating system will remain a system disk to the alternate system as you would be using the boot files of that main system to load the alternate, even if they are on different physical disks. That is why I think it is best to maintain the separate installs on separate disks and for this type of purpose (a dedicated gaming machine or other system with which you will use some DRM infected software) use the bios level boot disk selection to keep things very segmented.
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