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General: "The Customer Is Not Always Right
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
In this week's column, Sanya Weathers addresses issues raised in a colleague's column earlier in the week, stating that both "the customer" and "the developer" are misnomers.
"The Customer" is not always right, and neither is "The Developer."
The reason for this is simple. There's no such thing as "the customer" or "the developer" in the MMO world.
Speaking of an MMO customer as a single entity is madness. Even a small MMO has tens of thousands of customers. The only thing they are all certain to have in common is that they need to breathe air. The age span will run from toddler to senior citizen. The intelligence level will vary from illiterate cretin to Asperger-iffic engineer. There are a few incredibly good looking people, and there are a few, er, Morlocks.
Most players are right in the middle of every possible bell curve. In fact, the divergence amongst the typical MMO playerbase is mostly found in their opinions about the game. If you've got ten thousand customers, and you ask them all for their opinions, you will have ten thousand different ideas on what the game really needs. There will be broad areas of agreement, of course, but everyone will have their own spin based on their wildly divergent play styles, the amount of time they prefer to spend on gaming, their class, their preferred visual style, how well they read, to what degree they prefer immersion, how fast they type, how much time they spend on consoles, their reflexes, their personalities, their past experiences with MMOs, and their socioeconomic niche. Probably their marital status, too.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
Most players are positive "developers" are a monolithic entity that marches in lockstep, a juggernaut of nerf that heeds not our cries.
I lol'd.
Conversely, I'll wager that most developers are positive that players are a seething mass of exploiters, bound and determined to escape the box they're being shoved into by the design.
Hell has frozen over, I completly agree with Sanya on this topic which is also shown by my response to The Customer is Always Right article.
I think the majority of players have no idea the complexity that goes into an MMO design and changes. If you read official game boards everything is "It's easy just do this, should only take 5 minutes too." Those statements show such a lack of understanding it is insane. And those same people spit out later that day "The devs don't respond to me" or "The devs don't listen and make easy changes."
As I said in reponse to the other article, are the devs free of blame? Absolutly not, they do make mistakes and they do miss major issues that need to be fixed. But on the grand scheme of things they tend to do a solid job, and often times those major problems that need to be fixed have to be carefully done so in order to prevent many more major issues from popping up.
But the modern MMO player/forum poster tends to be a person who feels they know absolutly everything and they should be listened to and any changes they suggest made. It is ridiculous
Two of my favorite games were destroyed because devs decided to go their own merry way. Despite tons of hollering, crying, whining, and bitching from their subsribers. Those two are EQ and DAoC.
EQ used to be a nice little grouping game. Then some idiot dev had a brainfart to totally change the game to a raid centric nightmare. Locking out players from content, creating a raider vs. grouper division, and worst of all balancing the group game based on raid gear instead of group gear.
DAoC. Oh, DAoC, once the best game ever to grace the earth. Full of grouping, little to no raids. Not gear dependent. Vibrant economy. Awesome RvR. It had it all. Then, out of nowhere we are hit by this thing called Trials of Atlantis. I mean, wtf was that? This thing was a nightmare. Those of us who left EQ, because of the raids were once again being forced to raid. Not only that, but every encounter seemed to be broken. It took DAoC years, and tens of thousands of subscribers before they finally figured out "the customer is always right".
So, you can say all you want that "The Customer" is not always right(of course, we aren't talking individuals here), but history of MMOs that have gone from riches to rags proves otherwise.
I think I've found my favorite game columnist!
She's pretty much the only one on this site's staff with the ability to write, so yeah, welcome to the fan club.
The customer is always right. Thats why the customer gets what they pay for. If you ask 1 million people a question. You will get 1 million answers. But there is an average of the same answers. People have somehow fallen into the hype machine and don't know how to get out of it. Foaming at the mouth of every MMO release just because it's something new and looks exciting! Not once attempting to look up information on who's making this crap who owns this company what people are on the dev team and who's funding this game? I didn't play all these games for the hell of it, I played them because I'm looking for something to immerse myself in for a little while. I havn't bought a MMO in over a year because none of these p2p's are even worth it and are an insult. The people that run the show at making games are absolutly fucking DRY. NO IDEAS, NO INNOVATION, NO HEART. They have lost something somewhere down the road and aren't even using the biggest source of ideas. Us.
They just aren't given the chance to do something different, because it's risky.
The player's aren't very good source of ideas. We don't know what we want. The developer should develop something we want to play, not what we think we want to play.
They just aren't given the chance to do something different, because it's risky.
The player's aren't very good source of ideas. We don't know what we want. The developer should develop something we want to play, not what we think we want to play.
Of course its risky. You going to spend millions of dollars on an idea that might not work. Kinda sounds like a lot of shit produced today no? You make it sound as if we were actually asked what we wanted to play we would fumble around like ass hats and idiots drooling over oatmeal cookies. We know exactly what we want most of us aren't complete morons.
No, we would say "moar classes and races plz, and moar instances that are.. bigger and better".
Before trying out new things we don't know what would be 'best' for us. We say now that instant gratification is The way to reward players in MMO, but that is simply because they haven't tried a game where you actually have to work for your rewards. Some might like it more than what most MMO's offer these days, but without trying... they'll never find out.
It's the dev's duty to create opportunities like this for us to try out. But this isn't possible if they just let us do the thinking.
No, we would say "moar classes and races plz, and moar instances that are.. bigger and better".
Before trying out new things we don't know what would be 'best' for us. We say now that instant gratification is The way to reward players in MMO, but that is simply because they haven't tried a game where you actually have to work for your rewards. Some might like it more than what most MMO's offer these days, but without trying... they'll never find out.
It's the dev's duty to create opportunities like this for us to try out. But this isn't possible if they just let us do the thinking.
I think you are wrong to assume thats what would happen. Considering those are less than basic ideas. and offer no change what so ever to the MMORPG universe, I'm not sure you're taking this topic seriously. And we wouldn't be doing the thinking we would only providing the supplies FOR the bridge. Not building the damn thing. and by supplies i mean ideas. So we bring sticks rocks bones cans plates cars and mud boom there are your supplies(ideas) now build a bridge(game). Do you have a lack of faith in your fellow player? Or do you have a lack of faith in the Devs?
From what I've seen, most often those ideas come down to "make the same game, just bigger and better".
We can only tell the what we want based on our earlier experiences of the games. We can't make up features outside of that limited range, but the devs have the ability to do so.
We can tell the dev to use sticks, rocks, bones, cans, etc. when making a game... but we can't tell them to use 'dark matter' for example. Why? Because we don't know it exists yet. The devs can create the game for us made by those ingredients- that we didn't even know existed yet.
It's not really a lack of faith, but more the limited imagination we have. When we think of 'what features would be good in an MMO', we think of what earlier MMO's have done and take our ideas based on those images. That's the problem.
"If you don't trust your producer or president or designer or your community person to make the best possible decisions for the game, the best recourse you have as a customer is to not give those people your money."
That is so RIGHT
Thanks again Sanya
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
A very poignant and well-written article. I agree with much of what Sanya said, although I tend to be even more cynical about user opinions/ideas. If I see one million ideas posted by one million gamers, the first things that I assume are that most of them are wrong, unsalvageably myopic, or utterly moronic.
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
Play EVE for free for 21 days
She's pretty much the only one on this site's staff with the ability to write, so yeah, welcome to the fan club.
And Yes Welcome to the club.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
From what I've seen, most often those ideas come down to "make the same game, just bigger and better".
We can only tell the what we want based on our earlier experiences of the games. We can't make up features outside of that limited range, but the devs have the ability to do so.
We can tell the dev to use sticks, rocks, bones, cans, etc. when making a game... but we can't tell them to use 'dark matter' for example. Why? Because we don't know it exists yet. The devs can create the game for us made by those ingredients- that we didn't even know existed yet.
It's not really a lack of faith, but more the limited imagination we have. When we think of 'what features would be good in an MMO', we think of what earlier MMO's have done and take our ideas based on those images. That's the problem.
Ok so bam. We have identified a problem. Lets pretend that me and you are the community arguing about wrong and right. On this basis the left and right side must agree on at least one thing at this point. It would be that pretty much all of our ideas come from previous MMOs and other games. So as a community how would we present our ideas and thoughts on how to improve this in a calm and organized manner.
I think thats looking at it a little sideways. In many ways they are giving the majority of players exactly what they want...the problem is that we, as in the hardcore MMO veterans are not the majority anymore.
Throw on top of that the massive increase in budgets (20m to 50m to make a mainstream MMO these days) and you have a situation where of course the developers are going to go for the lowest common denimonators. So I would argue that the devs are doing exactly what you say they aren't, they are looking at everyone and picking the most commons likes, and those sadly aren't the things us veterans yearn for after years of the genre and playing the titles.
Sadly we simply arent the majority anymore, we are a niche, and hell, when people do make games for us as a niche, like Darkfall for example, we judge them by the standards of WoW and co anyway, I don't blame developers at all for not changing the formula - because we don't give them a reason to! (or there arent enough of us that would at least)
When I read the article... then I see this quote and the fact I agree with the person I quoted (tho not in the way they intended).
Then I consider who wrote this.. who they worked for.. and the current situation of that company (or what is left of it).
The only thing that comes to mind is.... Irony.
*edited to add*
I have no idea why a few posts above this someone is discussing whether the "hard core" is the majority or not. Look around at all the failed games.. especially recently. Then look at games which were successful and changed AGAINST customer wishes (in case of this article think DAoC... but imho SWG is probably a better example.. but Sanya wasn't a community relations poster for SOE.. which is why I find this article ironic given recent history especially this week...)
I actually agree with the article that Sanya didn't like(and linked in her article). Tho I think I would have written it different and my approach would have been different. Between the two article the one she quoted was closer to "how it is". Games don't fail because some small group of customers are "wrong".. they fail or start to die because the majority of customers don't think its "right" anymore.
That has nothing to do with Hardcore or casual... it has to do with Development decisions that are wrong... and the attitude of developers lately toward their player base. Oh don't worry my main beef is with things I've seen SOE employees say/do... but as I like to say.. we all have our perspectives.
This is of course mine... my point of view... my opinion and my experience. I left that industry in 2005... for good reason.
I go by two phrases:
The customer is always right, but verified by logs.
The customer should be impowered and made to believe his or hers feedback has merit even if it is not to be considered.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I just got home from a really long day at work but I have to make few comments here...
The custimor is always right ! - Cause if not - this custimor will not pay.
NOW.... lets go down to the facts tho... WIll a person that has played a character that he progressed through 1 or 2 years stop paying when he meets something he dislikes ? Probably not. What needs to happen so that he stops playing and gives up on hours and months and even years of playing with friends and developoing his character? The fact is... something huge has to happen....
The devs of MMO games have got ENDLESS amount of power to do what they want - Even if it means that alot of players will not like it. Im sorry Sanya but we are NOT talking Chicken or hamburgers here... Get a grip if you think RPG can be brought up as comparison to that. It pretty much means you have ZERO understanding of gaming. Specially RPG games.
Lets take an example here shall we... I quit WOW last year when Sunwell hit - as did HUGE portion of players that at that time had enough of the balancing method that BLizzard was using at that time. WHole classes and specs were left sitting outside an instance to buff ppl up. 5 man content of the game was unplayable for some classes while beeing way to easy for others. Yes... BLizzard lost probalby over 50K players in few weeks after release of Sunwell cause alot of ppl had enough at this point - It was not the first "mistakes"- there were seriers of prior issues that brought ppl to the verge of thinking they would quit the game because of these issues.
Here is the thing in WOW that maybe ppl need to realise by now - if they havn't already. There is one class in the game that is left HANGING in midair - flip flopped around whenever the devs think they got time - or when it becomes to Powerfull cause the changes made last time were not though trough. This is a class that Most ppl know that some of the devs HATE and have PUBLICLY stated so in earlier games they played. They even put up a huge protest in EQ to hang the servers when this class was given talents equal to those of the Warrior as a tank.
Yes - Im talkning about the PALADIN. And nothing has changed. WHy ? Because there is not actually 1 single DEV at BLizzard that has a TRUE vision for the class. One day the vision is to have the Ret tree as a healing/dps tree - not realising that when you have BOTH you create huge proglems (like first in WRATH). Then you realise that the dmg is to high so now you have nerfed both the DPS and healing ability and you know what.... It is effecting the OTHER specs MORE than its actually effecting the ret spec. And not only effecting the PVP arena side - no - its effecting PVE raiding even MORE.
Now.. you could forgive such issues coming up once or twice. But .. Go back through TBC and you will see while huge portion of the paladin population left in Sunwell. They realised that the devs had absolutly NO vision for the class... And most of these ppl were proofed correct when WOTLK hit.
Example... There is ONE single healing spec in WOW that does not have a smartheal group healing ability. FIne... if not for the fact that it affects the ablity of that spec to do 5 man content in the game (or prevents the 5 man content to be balanced around basic needs for structured healing ailities). This one healing spec was instead given talent to heal 2 ! players at same time... but then.. Blizzard realised that might maybe ... effect some setups in Arena... and so that ablity was nerfed. NOw this holy paladin spec is no longer a viable HEALER (even if he was taken to last boss for world first kills before Emergency fix). And still Blizzard claims their VISION of the spec is this and that... Their vision is NONE...
Finally - about your handraising story... Who doesn't want to get more powerfull in a RPG MMO game ? Get a clue what RPG is about... That on the other hand does not mean that all those ppl raising their hands want to be come more powerfull than OTHER classes in the game... They just want to keep progressing WITH these ppl ...
Now get a clue what RPG gaming is about Sanya....
You sir or madam are full of win and /agree.
This sword here at my side dont act the way it should
Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave
Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave
And it howls! it howls like hell!
Very good read,
Power to the people. Post your feedback folks and get those needing to be fired evited, and those who shine a raise.
This
I have often advocated that devs need to put more focus on test servers and actually paying attention to the results. Failure to pay attention and push things to lives gets you...
Well
Champions Online
which due to the devs own patches and actions has seen their 60 month and lifers sorming Gamestop and calling customer service to cancle within days of their fucks ups.
Honestly i expected week 3 to drive away even more people given their record.
Edit:
Also sayingyour customers don't matter...not...a good idea
"players come and players go, such is the nature of MMOs"
Jack Emmerat
Former Lead Developer - City of Heroes
I didn't find much I could agree with in what she had to say on the subject. When we say the customer is always right, we generally do assume that companies have more than customer. We are discussing them as a collective, and they ARE always right.. otherwise they cease to be "the customer".
I have seen a few developers argue that the customer should just shut up and let the professional software developers decide what it is that we want. This is the attitude we got from Smedly regarding SWG and from some ass-hat named Sillius who was working on vanguard. It seems to have been the overriding philosophy when developing a little piece of software called Windows Vista. These guys decided they knew better than we did what it was that we wanted, and they ended up being proved wrong. We didn't want the NGE, we didn't want a punishing crafting system and we didn't want a pop-up every five seconds asking us if we are sure we meant to click that button.
Bottom line, you have to give your customers what they want, even if it conflicts with what you want them to have. Developers DO NOT have a better idea what we enjoy than we do. That is what is meant by the customer is always right. We understand that neither "the customer" or the "the developer" are actually singular. We also understand that specific customers and specific developers want to see different things... but all of that is really beside the point. I think with the exception of a few posters who speak very little English, we all understand that the phrase "the customer is always right" simple means you have to give your customers what they want.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
The key to all this is communication, communication and more communication. The more players are informed about why decisions are made the more tolerant they are to those decisions, even if thy affect their main characters negatively. And at the same time the more information the developers get from as broad an audience as possible, the more informed decisions can they make.
It all comes down to how well information is exchanged between players and developers and it has to go both ways.
...
One of these days I would love to hear the whole story about archers in DaoC, how it was possible to keep on kicking them in the face again and again for months after the general player base agreed that they had already become a sad joke and still the nerfs rolled in every new patch. This is one of the weird cases where information flow failed completely both ways, it made little sense for the players that the nerfs continued patch after patch and the developers must have had some really bad info to make those decisions again and again.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
So addicted players have a hard time quitting? That's some news you got there, buddy.
It doesn't matter at which point you quit. All the work you've done will be lost regardless, at the latest when the servers will be shut down for good. What does it matter when you quit? If the person was not addicted, he'd quit once he got bored with the game or started disliking some new or old features. But no, not the addicted players. They tend to go to the forums and complain. They don't want to quit, because they'd 'lose all the hard work' and other nonsense.. but they're just addicted, nothing more. All the hard work doesn't matter in the end.
You know why this doesn't happen with single player games? Those players can move on once they're bored. If they don't like the game they won't play it. The MMORPG players play the game even though they don't like it... expecting that maybe in an update someday things would change for the better.. and complain at the forums.
Sad bunch that shouldn't be listened to, in my ever so honest opinion.