If your whole argument is something like "they discourage grouping by making soloing viable", then you have no argument. Its like people saying WOW has no downtime so I can't socialize...ignoring the fact that you can type and talk to people anytime you choose;) If you have to be told to do something or FORCED to do it, you're a zombie=) You can choose to do a dungeon any time. The rewards are better and the expereince of doing it is more challenging and more interesting than soloing. You're just not forced to do it...thank god.
It really is an asinine argument, it's like saying that people "discourage gourmet dining by making fast food available". The fact is, soloing doesn't make grouping difficult, grouping being a royal pain in the ass most of the time is what makes soloing more popular and trying to outlaw soloing won't change that fact one bit. The group-advocates act like games have somehow harmed grouping by "allowing" solo content when in fact, it's the fact that the overwhelming majority of players are primarily soloers and games want to stay in business that makes it so. If anything, groupers have harmed grouping by having so many real self-centered assholes on their side.
In the end, it all strikes me as "good-old-dayism". People who fondly remember the good of old games but conveniently forget all the bad parts of the "good old days".
Originally posted by Cephus404 It really is an asinine argument, it's like saying that people "discourage gourmet dining by making fast food available".
No, it's home cooking that fast food has discouraged. For the same reasons as grouping is discouraged by solo content.
Why even play an MMO, if you are not going to play with other people? Is it just an audience to show off your latest gear to?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Voice chat with strangers just ends up being a bunch of profanity being shouted by 13 year old kids trying to sound cool. I will only voice chat with people I know.
Grouping with strangers is awkward because of the typing thing. We've all gotten used to voice chat, so it's hard to go back to reading the chat box to keep up with what's going on. In some cases, the content requires timing that is impossible to do via chat box.
Once an MMO is past its initial furor, newie lands are empty, so getting a group for instances is impossible. In WoW's case, its not necessary because the grind has been cut down so much that it will take longer to go through an instance for gear than it would take to just power through til you get a decent green drop or buy an auction house item. This means that if you do find someone in the barren lands of newbie-dom, they're not interested in grouping anyway because the drops won't be useful for more than the next 10-20 minutes.
If you really want to understand what is going wrong with mmo communities all you need to do is look a real life. When greed becomes the measuring factor of how far you can go people will act like @$$holes, cheat, promotes eliteism which creates clicks and turns off normal mmo gamers to name a few.
Also the way group content is so hard coded promotes the same kind of elitest thought. If you cant' benefit me you are a liability so not worth my time. Adding someone maybe not as strong or as skilled as you lessens your piese of the pie.
The way group content is designed is it's own worst enemy and creates the need for solo content.
You turn mmos basically into a online high school and you're shocked that a lot of people just want to be left alone. You people really need to get a clue. If you want to fix the problem fix the cause don't blame the end result.
I doubt anyone here would attempt to take on the monster known as human greed. Unfortunately there's nothing we can do about that here. But I do believe that if players were made to rely on each other in a group based MMO, then grouping would work much more smoothly. To simply include grouping as an option is what you describe, and IMO doesn't really work
To lessen the greed factor you simple need to lessen the source of the greed which is the phat loot. UO had no where near this problem because gear played a minimum role in character development.
I think you are confusing relying on people with being forced onto people. Forcing people into groups doesn't cause camaraderie that only makes people think who can help further me along. This does not create a better community in fact this idea of who can further me along is part of the cause.
You want a mmo that has a better community and in turn more pugs happen you need to
1. Lessen loot power.
2. Rework the hard coded group content that EQ started. If more people can join a group without lessen the pie for each.
3. Lessen power of levels so more variety of level can join or get rid of levels all together. If a level 10 and a level 20 can still hunt together and both get something out of it more people would group.
4. Get rid of elite type game play. Designing group content like it's to be played by a crack navy seal team does not foster community. Creating this type of game play segments the community and drives people away not together.
You want a community based mmo you need to make it very vanilla.
WoW community isn't bad because you can solo it is bad because it shines in the above 4 statements.
Why even play an MMO, if you are not going to play with other people? Is it just an audience to show off your latest gear to?
Playing a social MMO is about being part of a community. My guild is my community.
Sometimes I join them for group content, sometimes I even join them for raid content and sometimes I solo but the point is that no matter which of the three activities I'm doing, I'm interacting with my chosen community via guild channels and/or VOIP clients like Ventrilo.
I interact with the extended community by participating in PvP, RP and the economy.
Soloers aren't antisocial. That's a flawed argument perpetuated by advocates of the forced-grouping mechanic as an attempt to disparage a playstyle that they feel negatively impacts their own.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Originally posted by Cephus404 It really is an asinine argument, it's like saying that people "discourage gourmet dining by making fast food available".
No, it's home cooking that fast food has discouraged. For the same reasons as grouping is discouraged by solo content.
Why even play an MMO, if you are not going to play with other people? Is it just an audience to show off your latest gear to?
Hardly, that's like saying batting cages have killed baseball.
We play MMOs because we want to be able to talk to and interact with other people. That's what the overwhelming majority of MMO players want to do. Personally, I don't give a damn about gear, I don't show off to anyone, nor do I wave my e-peen around, that's childish and stupid. I play to have a good time and if I can sit around and talk to other people who are likewise having a good time while I'm doing it, I'm a happy camper.
I don't have to be teamed with them to do it either.
I wholeheartedly disagree that soloing has "ruined" anything. I believe, vehemently in the fact that all MMOs should have soloable content and grouping should in NO WAY be forced. I do however believe that forced "socializing" is necessary and truly helps to bring a community together and in turn makes the game better for all players. I will explain what I mean by refering to the early portion of SWG.
In SWG, social interaction was very much forced. It was forced in the sense that if you wanted to advance, in many different aspects of the game, you had to interact with your other players, not in every case, but in most. In its original incarnation, SWG was not a loot based game. If you wanted the best gear, best items, or the best buffs, you HAD to go see another player and not some random boss you had to kill.
For combat specific characters, you needed to visit crafters for your gear, and with item decay and breakage, youy always had a reason to go back. You needed to visit doctors for their buffs. You needed to visit with entertainers for their buffs and "mental healing". For the crafters, you needed to visit with the combat characters to get access to certain resources. You needed to visit other crafters and gathers because there were SO MANY different resources that it was impossible for you to gather them all on your own. Also, you sometimes needed to visit other crafters to get components for the items you wanted to make but were incapable of making some of the base "ingrediants" required.
These are just but a few examples of the "forced interaction" that is what makes a good game, a great game. I believe that loot based gear grinds are what has helped to bring down the social aspects of the game. Once they made the character self-suffcient, in every way, including combat, that is where they went wrong. Dynamic, FULLY player run economies are the answer. If someone wants to go solo in combat, more power to them. But when the character is capable of that but also capable of doing everything else is when the game fails, in the MMO sense.
***EDIT***
Forgot to add the fact that you were only allowed one toon on the server. This truly helped the forced socializing.
Maligar is onto one of the things I enjoyed from the old Galaxy days. I was a ranger, I regularly had various amour smiths contact me if a good spawn came up. I still got to do my thing by playing how I enjoyed playing, I made some cash and interacted with other players. It was really cool how even dancers were important. There really was much more of a sense of community and fellow player interaction there then I've seen anywhere else. Once the changes and the loot-centric part of the game became more important, it changed.
In a way yes you were forced into interaction in order to get some things accomplished, but you still were able to play the game exactly how you wanted, you didn't have to group if you didn't want to. Forced grouping imho does not promote community in the same way, if anything it promotes being exposed to more of the 'it's all about me' people in a game.
Ryzom was the closest to this, however by the time I started playing that game they'd gone to Outposts and two types of 'religions', so there was a huge divide between the factions. From talking to those vets, it sounded very much like the way Galaxies used to be.
One major issue with grouping is the way loot is portioned out. In WoW, your group could run a dungeon to the end (incurring repair bills from a couple of wipes) only to have one or even no upgrades drop for the characters. That will cure a lot of people of grouping pretty fast. Warhammer has world drops of 'repairable' gear which turn into class-appropriate items for whoever has it repaired at a vendor. Great idea. Too bad they totally ignore that system for dungeons drops. The PQs drop loot bags which give the winner a choice of items to pick one. Another good idea. That is the sort of drop that dungeon bosses should drop. Not to mention a bag for EVERY character in the group. Yup, Warhammer really does have some good ideas hidden amongst the bugs and bad performance.
Not true. All dungeons drop badges, for the appropriate gear level, which can be used as currency to buy upgrades. WOW dungeons/raid do not only reward in gear drops.
Originally posted by Kyleran I've often thought what could be done with quest based content to make it more condusive to group dynamics, but really can't come up with anything substantial.
You could make quests as repetetive and dull as group grinding is. If all the quests in the zone require you to kill the same boars then people will group together to do it faster since noone cares which quest you are on.
Less choice forces people together while more choice spreads them out. People engaged in boring tasks will tend to socialize to relieve the boredom.
Which strangely enough, makes the game more fun at the same time, since in the end, running endless quests turns out to be just as repetitive and boring after a while, except you find yourself alone instead.
But I like the thought of making quests repetitive, perhaps imparting different bonuses for each pass through, or earning points towards some reward, so that players would be encouraged to repeat them with others. (maybe not an infinitum, but to a set number0
I cannot agree with you. I am simply not wired to consider that to be fun for an extended period. I don't mind doing simlar things for an extended period as long as there is enough of a variety in those tasks. As soon as those tasks become too alike, I get bored within 15-30 minutes. So camping the same spawn or type of spawn for an extended period puts me to sleep. I'll do it in spurts and then go do something else till I get 'unbored'.
The thing about the 'endless quests' is that there is usually enough variety in them to keep me interested for a much longer time. A new area will present a new challenge, there is a new twist to a quest formula, the mobs have new abilities I have to learn, etc.
One thing I really like about MMOs is that I can socialize with other people while still doing things on my own. AS such I do not see the logic in doing a boring task simply to socialize while I can socialize with the same people while doing something I enjoy. Now, if those people do not want to keep socializing with me once we are not doign the same task then it was just filler socializing and all they wanted to do was socialize with someone rather than me in particualar.
The idea that you need to convince people to do unfun, boring activities just so they can socaialized is to me ludicrous and backwards. The solution is for the game designers to add in more ways where socializing enhances a fun game experience rather than replacing it.
But see, I find most MMO activities unfun for the most part unless there is some social interaction to it. The issue goes beyond simply the fact you do a quests. People fail to realize the "benefit" the timesinks of the old games gave players from a social perspective.
Taking 3-5 minutes to rest up between fights, or long travel times with not a lot of actual manic acitvity gave players a lot of time to chat and enjoy themselves.
Its hard to explain, but in the end it was lots more fun than I ever realized and I guess I'm just an anchronistic dinosaur since I enjoyed them.
That is just you. By the popularity of solo/quest content, you are in the minority.
Why even play an MMO, if you are not going to play with other people? Is it just an audience to show off your latest gear to?
Playing a social MMO is about being part of a community. My guild is my community.
Sometimes I join them for group content, sometimes I even join them for raid content and sometimes I solo but the point is that no matter which of the three activities I'm doing, I'm interacting with my chosen community via guild channels and/or VOIP clients like Ventrilo.
I interact with the extended community by participating in PvP, RP and the economy.
Soloers aren't antisocial. That's a flawed argument perpetuated by advocates of the forced-grouping mechanic as an attempt to disparage a playstyle that they feel negatively impacts their own.
Quoted for truth, some just like to chat in region chat and not slow levelling without feeling like they're being pushed or have to be competative. Some just like having an auction with real people participating in real player economics.
Some just like other things which make no sense.... roleplayers enjoy both group and solo. Lets face it, in life.. we all need time for ourselves to do our own thing, what makes you think MMO's should be any different.
If i choose not to go out with my friends 1 day in the week, because i'm fed up of the clubs, music and bar scene and need a little break.. am i antisocial?
i mean, if people would engage brain and common sense at the same time, these arguments would be gone... there's room for both.
Try being Gamers for once instead of Old Women
"nothing actually matters, we're just slightly evolved monkeys clinging to a dying piece of rock hurtling through space waiting for our eventual death." - Frankie Boyle, Mock The Week
The whole current mmorpg system seems to be contradictory, because, 1. A game designed for multiple people centered around playing by your self, 2. the games builds a play-by-your-self mind set to end with playing with other people in non-solo content. Its no surprise to me why so many MMORPG's fail to make the cut today. To me the Ideal MMORPG is game that forces you in content that requires a group effort, and ends with content that requires a group.
NO its not. People go to Starbuck's to read too. AH, chatting are all MP activities. There is nothing saying that grouping is the ONLY MP activity that should be supported.
Plus, force grouping MMOs are already behind the times. There is no reason to go back. There is a reason why WOW is more than 10x more popular than EQ and more solo friendly is ONE of the them.
Maligar is onto one of the things I enjoyed from the old Galaxy days. I was a ranger, I regularly had various amour smiths contact me if a good spawn came up. I still got to do my thing by playing how I enjoyed playing, I made some cash and interacted with other players. It was really cool how even dancers were important. There really was much more of a sense of community and fellow player interaction there then I've seen anywhere else. Once the changes and the loot-centric part of the game became more important, it changed. In a way yes you were forced into interaction in order to get some things accomplished, but you still were able to play the game exactly how you wanted, you didn't have to group if you didn't want to. Forced grouping imho does not promote community in the same way, if anything it promotes being exposed to more of the 'it's all about me' people in a game. Ryzom was the closest to this, however by the time I started playing that game they'd gone to Outposts and two types of 'religions', so there was a huge divide between the factions. From talking to those vets, it sounded very much like the way Galaxies used to be.
Thanks and yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. People knew other people and/or got to know other people because they HAD to, to get the items they needed. It didn't matter what skills you had. You HAD to interact with others to get more out of the game. This is what MMOs today need. For all its faults, the original SWG had the player run economy done better than any other game I have seen to date. The only one that even comes remotely close, is EVE. IMO the only reason the EVE community is "less than stellar", pun intended, is because of the FFA PvP / Full Loot system. Thankfully they included Empire Space, which helps to even out the community somewhat. However, like I said in my original post, once a character becomes capable of doing everything on their own, community takes a dive. Which is possible in EVE, but not likely due to the time required to train the advanced skills, regardless of their field.
That is just you. By the popularity of solo/quest content, you are in the minority.
This is correct. But thankfully multiplayer shooter games have not suffered the greedy, solo-infested, AFK-botting mess that MMORPG PvP has. Also, there are plenty of great recent single player games out there.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
One other thing to take into account is since EQ most mmos have been designed like off line rpg games with forced roles and forced combat. The idea of a online world has completely gone to @#$. UO had community because it offered community features. How many times did I tool around town fishing, smithing or what ever just talking to people. How many times did I pop in a dungeon beside someone and we helped each other kill the mob each of us taking a turn to loot the mob. There was more to UO then me and 5 others people group together to kill everything that moves hopeing for the phat loot to drop.
Until you fix this idea (which is very true) that joining up with someone will take away from you by them not being as skill as you or by winning the phat loot that happens to drop you will never have a good community based game.
I agree with your post. I gave up WoW for a little while before the first expansion because I couldnt get the gear for my rogue which required a group effort to obtain. Also, the first expansion killed my love for WoW completely when they forced everyone to PvP in order to qualify for end-game raids. This is also a problem Ive seen occuring in MMOs today because PUG pvp groups are hard to come by while only a select group of people truely commit themselves to forming a regular-daily group. Ofcourse, most were excluded from this group because we didnt get to win enough pvp games to get good enough gear to join a guild and finally start getting into the whole pvp-group action. It has become a constant cycle of let-down after let-down.
One other thing to take into account is since EQ most mmos have been designed like off line rpg games with forced roles and forced combat. The idea of a online world has completely gone to @#$. UO had community because it offered community features. How many times did I tool around town fishing, smithing or what ever just talking to people. How many times did I pop in a dungeon beside someone and we helped each other kill the mob each of us taking a turn to loot the mob. There was more to UO then me and 5 others people group together to kill everything that moves hopeing for the phat loot to drop. Until you fix this idea (which is very true) that joining up with someone will take away from you by them not being as skill as you or by winning the phat loot that happens to drop you will never have a good community based game.
Remember, the simple ability to run around in a virtual landscape and chat with people was very new and cool in 1998. Not so much now in 2009. Also remember that UO didn't have challenging content or any sort of advanced group startegy required in PvE compared to todays MMOs. Nor did UO have all that much content that didnt' involve players Rping and making things up. Mobs were just plopped down. Dungeons were simplistic crawls. Bosses were, well, VERY simple AI or difficult if you include the bugs and greifers;) You didn't run around in UO for phat loot because there was no phat loot, no cool boss, no amazing dungeons, at least when you compared it all to EQ, at the time. It was just chatting, building a house and collecting stuff.
Last time I checked to get all the phat loot in your EQ-like games, you HAVE TO group up. WHatever phat loot you're getting solo isn't hard to get. SO grouping up doesn't hurt you. It never hurt you, unless the ONLY thing you're looking at is your EXP per hour or how fast you're leveling up, which seems odd if you're the kind of person who just wants to play with your friends. I'd find it quite odd that anyone would prefer to SOLO than play with people they enjoy playing with. If they prefer to solo, thats THEY'RE perogative. They have no right to complain about being punished by grouping. WHats more important? PLaying with friends or MIN/MAXING? The game doesnt' force you to min/max. UO forced you to MIN/MAX just to be competitive. You couldn't kill anyone if you just did whatever you wanted adn trained fishing all day. You HAD TO min/max and follow the best template or you got crushed. MMOs aren't about just winning. But some PEOPLE make MMOs about winning. MMOs just offer you the option of how fast you'd like to accomplish whatevr it is you're after. If some people want to do it all as fast as possible, thats the PEOPLE not the game.
Communites in any large MMO are going to suffer. Is NYC as nice a place per square block as some small midwest town? Hardly. But there are still fantastic communities in NYC. They're just harder to find. Thats the great thing about guilds. If you just see that as your community, then a new MMO is just as good as an old one when it comes to people. My guild in WOW was made up mostly former UO, EQ and DOAC players, so my community in WOW was just as good as in past games. If people chose not to play with like minded people and only worry about themselves, their EXP and WINNING at all costs, than thats their fault.
WoW doesn't discourage grouping? I'm sorry that you're so blind, but they more than discourage it, they make it difficult.
Compared to every other MMO, how is it MORE difficult to find a group in WOW?
If your whole argument is something like "they discourage grouping by making soloing viable", then you have no argument. Its like people saying WOW has no downtime so I can't socialize...ignoring the fact that you can type and talk to people anytime you choose;) If you have to be told to do something or FORCED to do it, you're a zombie=) You can choose to do a dungeon any time. The rewards are better and the expereince of doing it is more challenging and more interesting than soloing. You're just not forced to do it...thank god.
But it is a valid argument.
N = {[X - S] + G} + V
Where
X = statistical average number of players
S = players who only solo
G = players who only group
V = players who either solo or group depending on their respective viability
So N would represent the difficulty of finding a group, affected by the viability of solo.
Hmm... while I do enjoy some solo time, I have to say that I prefer to play MMOGs with a group. Call me crazy (as I know some of you would), but I distinctly remember that being one of the main reasons MMOs were started in the first place.
In fact, most of what I'm reading within this thread is purely speculation. I get that there are many people in the genre that enjoy playing alone, but definitely not all. While you can probably find cases of anti-social gaming within certain games (something I find very sad), most people that don't play in groups only do so because they hate taking orders from a stranger. However, there are those of us who not only grew up with the industry, but grew up in reality. Thus, we are able to take orders and give orders and just generally have a good time with the idea of teamwork.
I certainly hope that we don't lose the idea of teamwork and fellowship within the genre or all is lost to it, and I definitely don't see it happening. Ever. Or EVAR as I saw someone else put...
WoW doesn't discourage grouping? I'm sorry that you're so blind, but they more than discourage it, they make it difficult.
Compared to every other MMO, how is it MORE difficult to find a group in WOW?
If your whole argument is something like "they discourage grouping by making soloing viable", then you have no argument. Its like people saying WOW has no downtime so I can't socialize...ignoring the fact that you can type and talk to people anytime you choose;) If you have to be told to do something or FORCED to do it, you're a zombie=) You can choose to do a dungeon any time. The rewards are better and the expereince of doing it is more challenging and more interesting than soloing. You're just not forced to do it...thank god.
We're talking about MMORPGs right? As in "roleplaying"? I'm just trying to make sure, because while I get that we've come along way from the origin of nerd to the new definition, I still see that grouping is an important initiative in the MMO world. While it not only promotes social behavior (not in the sense that you can just chat with whomever whenever), but it builds leadership in EVERYONE who wishes to learn or adapt to the playstyle of that specific game. What I'm trying to say (and I'm not flaming at you) is that grouping is a fundamental aspect of Massively-Multiplayer-Online-Role-Playing-Games. If you don't see that, then that's your own prorogative, and Bobby Brown knows just how you feel.
Originally posted by RoosterNash We're talking about MMORPGs right? As in "roleplaying"? I'm just trying to make sure, because while I get that we've come along way from the origin of nerd to the new definition, I still see that grouping is an important initiative in the MMO world. While it not only promotes social behavior (not in the sense that you can just chat with whomever whenever), but it builds leadership in EVERYONE who wishes to learn or adapt to the playstyle of that specific game. What I'm trying to say (and I'm not flaming at you) is that grouping is a fundamental aspect of Massively-Multiplayer-Online-Role-Playing-Games. If you don't see that, then that's your own prorogative, and Bobby Brown knows just how you feel.
No. It does not need to be forced grouping to be classified or successful as an MMO. MMO simply means that there are more than just you playing the game. Nothing more, nothing less. You do not need to force grouping to have a good community. As it was proven in the early parts of SWG, you did not NEED to group with anyone, but it had one of the best communities ever to be seen in an MMO to date. No, not necessarily the best, but a great one none-the-less. You could do nearly any combat in the game solo. However, to be able to do that combat, you had to interact with your fellow players. Whether it be for gear, buffs, resources or whatever. Forced grouping in combat tends to do less for the community then it benefits it. However, forced interaction via a fully player run economy is where your sense of community comes from.
We're talking about MMORPGs right? As in "roleplaying"? I'm just trying to make sure, because while I get that we've come along way from the origin of nerd to the new definition, I still see that grouping is an important initiative in the MMO world. While it not only promotes social behavior (not in the sense that you can just chat with whomever whenever), but it builds leadership in EVERYONE who wishes to learn or adapt to the playstyle of that specific game. What I'm trying to say (and I'm not flaming at you) is that grouping is a fundamental aspect of Massively-Multiplayer-Online-Role-Playing-Games. If you don't see that, then that's your own prorogative, and Bobby Brown knows just how you feel.
MMORPG .. the most important part is GAME. Players are in it to have fun .. not to fulfill some higher social purpose. If they have fun soloing (i know i do), i don't see why not give it to them.
BTW, RPG is a mis-nomer. Most RPGs on the market today are hack-n-slash games. I don't play games to get leadership skills, i do that in real world. Games are means to be entertained .. no more & no less.
Sorry, MMORPG screwed up my post, reconstructing it unenhanced:
heremypet wrote: Go ahead then and contradict yourself. It doesn't prove your original statement, nor does it refute my challenge to it.
There's no contradiction whatsoever, you don't need to join a group in order to socialize and make friends, groups are for defeating bosses and high-level content, not for forging friendships. Just because I group with some guy doesn't mean I'm going to be friends with him, chances are I'll never see him again as long as I live.
heremypet wrote: Keep repeating it, but you're wrong. There is plenty to stop them.
You'll have to explain that in detail. What stops *YOU* from grouping with similar-minded players who also want to group? Is your "join team" button broken or something? I see this all the time, what you really mean is that you can't find enough people willing to group with you, therefore you think you get to force everyone to do what *YOU* want so *YOU* have an easier time of it. Fuck what everyone else wants, right?
Mighty damn egotistical of you there.
heremypet wrote: My ability to make friends isn't the question here, and besides, friendship doesn't automatically make players any more willing to group, when the goals could easily be reached solo.
Even if I can solo every shred of content in the game, if a friend sends me a /tell and wants to group, I'll group. Why? That's what friends do.
Maybe the problem is you're confusing people who only want to use you for their own personal XP and loot goals as "friends".
I find the argument that making the game boring so folks will socialize more a recipe for MMO bankruptcy. If the game is boring, they simply won't play it. Why spend good money to be so bored that you have to chat in order to stay awake? Heck, Second Life is free and it works great for exactly that-- chatting and socializing. So why pay? The reason games are going away from group based content is that it is a limiting way to play for many people for many reasons, and those people will simply opt to not play at all rather than be forced to play a way that is not fun for them. In short, Solo = more subscriptions and/or item mall purchases. The reasons range from not wanting to deal with asshats to differences in the pace one plays at, and a whole host of other reasons to boot. For example, I am the type who reads the quests, picks all the plants, mines the ore, fishes, stares at the scenery, grinds every mob & etc. If I group, I can't do that because there is at least one person who wants to play "faster" than me. This does not make that player bad or a jerk, it just makes him incompatible with my playstyle, and me with his. The successful MMO will be one that offers and equally rewards multiple play styles and be one that makes transitioning between those styles painless, and even *gasp* fun. So far, WoW is the only one who has come close, and even it falls short, for everyone feels jaded someway (Soloers complain about restricted content, raiders whine about devalued awards, etc). To me, the trick would be to lure the folks in solo, then show them how much fun grouping can be so that they want to do it. So far, MMO's have been full of epic fail in this regards. Sure, they lure in the solo player, then force him to group in the end, and do nothing to make it fun, so the soloer feels ripped off while the groupers get their communities shredded by disenchanted players. The true fact is that the reasons groups don't form is not from to the availability of solo content, but due to a very simple and painful truth to the pro grouping crowd: They don't want to play with you! And no amount of group forcing will change that. Only when grouping becomes a fun, flexible and a viable play option that does not destroy or devalue other modes of play will that change.
The whole reason Asshats exist is because of soloing. Everyone solos and, like you said learn to play at different paces, develop this specific standard on how the game should be played, and what skill level it should be played at, but not everyone can develop the same standard of play from soloing. People don't see the flaws in thier play style, because thier play style succeeded all the challenges they faced, and brought them to the last level of the game, they only see how they think somthing should be executed. Unfortunatly, all players see things and play the game thier own way, thus you have people angry with people for not doing in thier way. I think of it as a inherent gaming philosophy developed by a persons personality based off of the type of game content they are subjected to. Furthure more, because they can just go back to soloing the game, they dont care about being a dick to other players. They have nothing to lose from being an asshat.
The whole idea of promoting grouping is to bring everyone to the same page. Players leveling up with other players gives all the players a legitmate chance to adopt the same philosophy on how the game should be played.
You said basically that there never was and never will be a group based MMO, and if there were it would be a failure. I provided several examples of group based MMOs, and you respond by suggesting that I'm mistaken because you rarely ever grouped in AO? You said AO was a grouping game and, considering the vast majority of players play solo, you're simply wrong. I don't think anyone is surprised either. I feel obligated to spell it out to you that YOU ARE A MORON. Perhaps you are mentally retarded and just don't know it yet, I don't know. But I can no longer in my right mind consider anything else you might have to say. You just keep proving what a fool you are. Keep it up.
Comments
It really is an asinine argument, it's like saying that people "discourage gourmet dining by making fast food available". The fact is, soloing doesn't make grouping difficult, grouping being a royal pain in the ass most of the time is what makes soloing more popular and trying to outlaw soloing won't change that fact one bit. The group-advocates act like games have somehow harmed grouping by "allowing" solo content when in fact, it's the fact that the overwhelming majority of players are primarily soloers and games want to stay in business that makes it so. If anything, groupers have harmed grouping by having so many real self-centered assholes on their side.
In the end, it all strikes me as "good-old-dayism". People who fondly remember the good of old games but conveniently forget all the bad parts of the "good old days".
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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No, it's home cooking that fast food has discouraged. For the same reasons as grouping is discouraged by solo content.
Why even play an MMO, if you are not going to play with other people? Is it just an audience to show off your latest gear to?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Voice chat with strangers just ends up being a bunch of profanity being shouted by 13 year old kids trying to sound cool. I will only voice chat with people I know.
Grouping with strangers is awkward because of the typing thing. We've all gotten used to voice chat, so it's hard to go back to reading the chat box to keep up with what's going on. In some cases, the content requires timing that is impossible to do via chat box.
Once an MMO is past its initial furor, newie lands are empty, so getting a group for instances is impossible. In WoW's case, its not necessary because the grind has been cut down so much that it will take longer to go through an instance for gear than it would take to just power through til you get a decent green drop or buy an auction house item. This means that if you do find someone in the barren lands of newbie-dom, they're not interested in grouping anyway because the drops won't be useful for more than the next 10-20 minutes.
I doubt anyone here would attempt to take on the monster known as human greed. Unfortunately there's nothing we can do about that here. But I do believe that if players were made to rely on each other in a group based MMO, then grouping would work much more smoothly. To simply include grouping as an option is what you describe, and IMO doesn't really work
To lessen the greed factor you simple need to lessen the source of the greed which is the phat loot. UO had no where near this problem because gear played a minimum role in character development.
I think you are confusing relying on people with being forced onto people. Forcing people into groups doesn't cause camaraderie that only makes people think who can help further me along. This does not create a better community in fact this idea of who can further me along is part of the cause.
You want a mmo that has a better community and in turn more pugs happen you need to
1. Lessen loot power.
2. Rework the hard coded group content that EQ started. If more people can join a group without lessen the pie for each.
3. Lessen power of levels so more variety of level can join or get rid of levels all together. If a level 10 and a level 20 can still hunt together and both get something out of it more people would group.
4. Get rid of elite type game play. Designing group content like it's to be played by a crack navy seal team does not foster community. Creating this type of game play segments the community and drives people away not together.
You want a community based mmo you need to make it very vanilla.
WoW community isn't bad because you can solo it is bad because it shines in the above 4 statements.
Playing a social MMO is about being part of a community. My guild is my community.
Sometimes I join them for group content, sometimes I even join them for raid content and sometimes I solo but the point is that no matter which of the three activities I'm doing, I'm interacting with my chosen community via guild channels and/or VOIP clients like Ventrilo.
I interact with the extended community by participating in PvP, RP and the economy.
Soloers aren't antisocial. That's a flawed argument perpetuated by advocates of the forced-grouping mechanic as an attempt to disparage a playstyle that they feel negatively impacts their own.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
No, it's home cooking that fast food has discouraged. For the same reasons as grouping is discouraged by solo content.
Why even play an MMO, if you are not going to play with other people? Is it just an audience to show off your latest gear to?
Hardly, that's like saying batting cages have killed baseball.
We play MMOs because we want to be able to talk to and interact with other people. That's what the overwhelming majority of MMO players want to do. Personally, I don't give a damn about gear, I don't show off to anyone, nor do I wave my e-peen around, that's childish and stupid. I play to have a good time and if I can sit around and talk to other people who are likewise having a good time while I'm doing it, I'm a happy camper.
I don't have to be teamed with them to do it either.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I wholeheartedly disagree that soloing has "ruined" anything. I believe, vehemently in the fact that all MMOs should have soloable content and grouping should in NO WAY be forced. I do however believe that forced "socializing" is necessary and truly helps to bring a community together and in turn makes the game better for all players. I will explain what I mean by refering to the early portion of SWG.
In SWG, social interaction was very much forced. It was forced in the sense that if you wanted to advance, in many different aspects of the game, you had to interact with your other players, not in every case, but in most. In its original incarnation, SWG was not a loot based game. If you wanted the best gear, best items, or the best buffs, you HAD to go see another player and not some random boss you had to kill.
For combat specific characters, you needed to visit crafters for your gear, and with item decay and breakage, youy always had a reason to go back. You needed to visit doctors for their buffs. You needed to visit with entertainers for their buffs and "mental healing". For the crafters, you needed to visit with the combat characters to get access to certain resources. You needed to visit other crafters and gathers because there were SO MANY different resources that it was impossible for you to gather them all on your own. Also, you sometimes needed to visit other crafters to get components for the items you wanted to make but were incapable of making some of the base "ingrediants" required.
These are just but a few examples of the "forced interaction" that is what makes a good game, a great game. I believe that loot based gear grinds are what has helped to bring down the social aspects of the game. Once they made the character self-suffcient, in every way, including combat, that is where they went wrong. Dynamic, FULLY player run economies are the answer. If someone wants to go solo in combat, more power to them. But when the character is capable of that but also capable of doing everything else is when the game fails, in the MMO sense.
***EDIT***
Forgot to add the fact that you were only allowed one toon on the server. This truly helped the forced socializing.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
Maligar is onto one of the things I enjoyed from the old Galaxy days. I was a ranger, I regularly had various amour smiths contact me if a good spawn came up. I still got to do my thing by playing how I enjoyed playing, I made some cash and interacted with other players. It was really cool how even dancers were important. There really was much more of a sense of community and fellow player interaction there then I've seen anywhere else. Once the changes and the loot-centric part of the game became more important, it changed.
In a way yes you were forced into interaction in order to get some things accomplished, but you still were able to play the game exactly how you wanted, you didn't have to group if you didn't want to. Forced grouping imho does not promote community in the same way, if anything it promotes being exposed to more of the 'it's all about me' people in a game.
Ryzom was the closest to this, however by the time I started playing that game they'd gone to Outposts and two types of 'religions', so there was a huge divide between the factions. From talking to those vets, it sounded very much like the way Galaxies used to be.
Not true. All dungeons drop badges, for the appropriate gear level, which can be used as currency to buy upgrades. WOW dungeons/raid do not only reward in gear drops.
You could make quests as repetetive and dull as group grinding is. If all the quests in the zone require you to kill the same boars then people will group together to do it faster since noone cares which quest you are on.
Less choice forces people together while more choice spreads them out. People engaged in boring tasks will tend to socialize to relieve the boredom.
Which strangely enough, makes the game more fun at the same time, since in the end, running endless quests turns out to be just as repetitive and boring after a while, except you find yourself alone instead.
But I like the thought of making quests repetitive, perhaps imparting different bonuses for each pass through, or earning points towards some reward, so that players would be encouraged to repeat them with others. (maybe not an infinitum, but to a set number0
I cannot agree with you. I am simply not wired to consider that to be fun for an extended period. I don't mind doing simlar things for an extended period as long as there is enough of a variety in those tasks. As soon as those tasks become too alike, I get bored within 15-30 minutes. So camping the same spawn or type of spawn for an extended period puts me to sleep. I'll do it in spurts and then go do something else till I get 'unbored'.
The thing about the 'endless quests' is that there is usually enough variety in them to keep me interested for a much longer time. A new area will present a new challenge, there is a new twist to a quest formula, the mobs have new abilities I have to learn, etc.
One thing I really like about MMOs is that I can socialize with other people while still doing things on my own. AS such I do not see the logic in doing a boring task simply to socialize while I can socialize with the same people while doing something I enjoy. Now, if those people do not want to keep socializing with me once we are not doign the same task then it was just filler socializing and all they wanted to do was socialize with someone rather than me in particualar.
The idea that you need to convince people to do unfun, boring activities just so they can socaialized is to me ludicrous and backwards. The solution is for the game designers to add in more ways where socializing enhances a fun game experience rather than replacing it.
But see, I find most MMO activities unfun for the most part unless there is some social interaction to it. The issue goes beyond simply the fact you do a quests. People fail to realize the "benefit" the timesinks of the old games gave players from a social perspective.
Taking 3-5 minutes to rest up between fights, or long travel times with not a lot of actual manic acitvity gave players a lot of time to chat and enjoy themselves.
Its hard to explain, but in the end it was lots more fun than I ever realized and I guess I'm just an anchronistic dinosaur since I enjoyed them.
That is just you. By the popularity of solo/quest content, you are in the minority.
Playing a social MMO is about being part of a community. My guild is my community.
Sometimes I join them for group content, sometimes I even join them for raid content and sometimes I solo but the point is that no matter which of the three activities I'm doing, I'm interacting with my chosen community via guild channels and/or VOIP clients like Ventrilo.
I interact with the extended community by participating in PvP, RP and the economy.
Soloers aren't antisocial. That's a flawed argument perpetuated by advocates of the forced-grouping mechanic as an attempt to disparage a playstyle that they feel negatively impacts their own.
Quoted for truth, some just like to chat in region chat and not slow levelling without feeling like they're being pushed or have to be competative. Some just like having an auction with real people participating in real player economics.
Some just like other things which make no sense.... roleplayers enjoy both group and solo. Lets face it, in life.. we all need time for ourselves to do our own thing, what makes you think MMO's should be any different.
If i choose not to go out with my friends 1 day in the week, because i'm fed up of the clubs, music and bar scene and need a little break.. am i antisocial?
i mean, if people would engage brain and common sense at the same time, these arguments would be gone... there's room for both.
Try being Gamers for once instead of Old Women
"nothing actually matters, we're just slightly evolved monkeys clinging to a dying piece of rock hurtling through space waiting for our eventual death." - Frankie Boyle, Mock The Week
NO its not. People go to Starbuck's to read too. AH, chatting are all MP activities. There is nothing saying that grouping is the ONLY MP activity that should be supported.
Plus, force grouping MMOs are already behind the times. There is no reason to go back. There is a reason why WOW is more than 10x more popular than EQ and more solo friendly is ONE of the them.
Thanks and yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. People knew other people and/or got to know other people because they HAD to, to get the items they needed. It didn't matter what skills you had. You HAD to interact with others to get more out of the game. This is what MMOs today need. For all its faults, the original SWG had the player run economy done better than any other game I have seen to date. The only one that even comes remotely close, is EVE. IMO the only reason the EVE community is "less than stellar", pun intended, is because of the FFA PvP / Full Loot system. Thankfully they included Empire Space, which helps to even out the community somewhat. However, like I said in my original post, once a character becomes capable of doing everything on their own, community takes a dive. Which is possible in EVE, but not likely due to the time required to train the advanced skills, regardless of their field.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
This is correct. But thankfully multiplayer shooter games have not suffered the greedy, solo-infested, AFK-botting mess that MMORPG PvP has. Also, there are plenty of great recent single player games out there.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
One other thing to take into account is since EQ most mmos have been designed like off line rpg games with forced roles and forced combat. The idea of a online world has completely gone to @#$. UO had community because it offered community features. How many times did I tool around town fishing, smithing or what ever just talking to people. How many times did I pop in a dungeon beside someone and we helped each other kill the mob each of us taking a turn to loot the mob. There was more to UO then me and 5 others people group together to kill everything that moves hopeing for the phat loot to drop.
Until you fix this idea (which is very true) that joining up with someone will take away from you by them not being as skill as you or by winning the phat loot that happens to drop you will never have a good community based game.
I agree with your post. I gave up WoW for a little while before the first expansion because I couldnt get the gear for my rogue which required a group effort to obtain. Also, the first expansion killed my love for WoW completely when they forced everyone to PvP in order to qualify for end-game raids. This is also a problem Ive seen occuring in MMOs today because PUG pvp groups are hard to come by while only a select group of people truely commit themselves to forming a regular-daily group. Ofcourse, most were excluded from this group because we didnt get to win enough pvp games to get good enough gear to join a guild and finally start getting into the whole pvp-group action. It has become a constant cycle of let-down after let-down.
Remember, the simple ability to run around in a virtual landscape and chat with people was very new and cool in 1998. Not so much now in 2009. Also remember that UO didn't have challenging content or any sort of advanced group startegy required in PvE compared to todays MMOs. Nor did UO have all that much content that didnt' involve players Rping and making things up. Mobs were just plopped down. Dungeons were simplistic crawls. Bosses were, well, VERY simple AI or difficult if you include the bugs and greifers;) You didn't run around in UO for phat loot because there was no phat loot, no cool boss, no amazing dungeons, at least when you compared it all to EQ, at the time. It was just chatting, building a house and collecting stuff.
Last time I checked to get all the phat loot in your EQ-like games, you HAVE TO group up. WHatever phat loot you're getting solo isn't hard to get. SO grouping up doesn't hurt you. It never hurt you, unless the ONLY thing you're looking at is your EXP per hour or how fast you're leveling up, which seems odd if you're the kind of person who just wants to play with your friends. I'd find it quite odd that anyone would prefer to SOLO than play with people they enjoy playing with. If they prefer to solo, thats THEY'RE perogative. They have no right to complain about being punished by grouping. WHats more important? PLaying with friends or MIN/MAXING? The game doesnt' force you to min/max. UO forced you to MIN/MAX just to be competitive. You couldn't kill anyone if you just did whatever you wanted adn trained fishing all day. You HAD TO min/max and follow the best template or you got crushed. MMOs aren't about just winning. But some PEOPLE make MMOs about winning. MMOs just offer you the option of how fast you'd like to accomplish whatevr it is you're after. If some people want to do it all as fast as possible, thats the PEOPLE not the game.
Communites in any large MMO are going to suffer. Is NYC as nice a place per square block as some small midwest town? Hardly. But there are still fantastic communities in NYC. They're just harder to find. Thats the great thing about guilds. If you just see that as your community, then a new MMO is just as good as an old one when it comes to people. My guild in WOW was made up mostly former UO, EQ and DOAC players, so my community in WOW was just as good as in past games. If people chose not to play with like minded people and only worry about themselves, their EXP and WINNING at all costs, than thats their fault.
Compared to every other MMO, how is it MORE difficult to find a group in WOW?
If your whole argument is something like "they discourage grouping by making soloing viable", then you have no argument. Its like people saying WOW has no downtime so I can't socialize...ignoring the fact that you can type and talk to people anytime you choose;) If you have to be told to do something or FORCED to do it, you're a zombie=) You can choose to do a dungeon any time. The rewards are better and the expereince of doing it is more challenging and more interesting than soloing. You're just not forced to do it...thank god.
But it is a valid argument.
N = {[X - S] + G} + V
Where
X = statistical average number of players
S = players who only solo
G = players who only group
V = players who either solo or group depending on their respective viability
So N would represent the difficulty of finding a group, affected by the viability of solo.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
Hmm... while I do enjoy some solo time, I have to say that I prefer to play MMOGs with a group. Call me crazy (as I know some of you would), but I distinctly remember that being one of the main reasons MMOs were started in the first place.
In fact, most of what I'm reading within this thread is purely speculation. I get that there are many people in the genre that enjoy playing alone, but definitely not all. While you can probably find cases of anti-social gaming within certain games (something I find very sad), most people that don't play in groups only do so because they hate taking orders from a stranger. However, there are those of us who not only grew up with the industry, but grew up in reality. Thus, we are able to take orders and give orders and just generally have a good time with the idea of teamwork.
I certainly hope that we don't lose the idea of teamwork and fellowship within the genre or all is lost to it, and I definitely don't see it happening. Ever. Or EVAR as I saw someone else put...
THE Rooster Nash
Compared to every other MMO, how is it MORE difficult to find a group in WOW?
If your whole argument is something like "they discourage grouping by making soloing viable", then you have no argument. Its like people saying WOW has no downtime so I can't socialize...ignoring the fact that you can type and talk to people anytime you choose;) If you have to be told to do something or FORCED to do it, you're a zombie=) You can choose to do a dungeon any time. The rewards are better and the expereince of doing it is more challenging and more interesting than soloing. You're just not forced to do it...thank god.
We're talking about MMORPGs right? As in "roleplaying"? I'm just trying to make sure, because while I get that we've come along way from the origin of nerd to the new definition, I still see that grouping is an important initiative in the MMO world. While it not only promotes social behavior (not in the sense that you can just chat with whomever whenever), but it builds leadership in EVERYONE who wishes to learn or adapt to the playstyle of that specific game. What I'm trying to say (and I'm not flaming at you) is that grouping is a fundamental aspect of Massively-Multiplayer-Online-Role-Playing-Games. If you don't see that, then that's your own prorogative, and Bobby Brown knows just how you feel.
THE Rooster Nash
No. It does not need to be forced grouping to be classified or successful as an MMO. MMO simply means that there are more than just you playing the game. Nothing more, nothing less. You do not need to force grouping to have a good community. As it was proven in the early parts of SWG, you did not NEED to group with anyone, but it had one of the best communities ever to be seen in an MMO to date. No, not necessarily the best, but a great one none-the-less. You could do nearly any combat in the game solo. However, to be able to do that combat, you had to interact with your fellow players. Whether it be for gear, buffs, resources or whatever. Forced grouping in combat tends to do less for the community then it benefits it. However, forced interaction via a fully player run economy is where your sense of community comes from.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
MMORPG .. the most important part is GAME. Players are in it to have fun .. not to fulfill some higher social purpose. If they have fun soloing (i know i do), i don't see why not give it to them.
BTW, RPG is a mis-nomer. Most RPGs on the market today are hack-n-slash games. I don't play games to get leadership skills, i do that in real world. Games are means to be entertained .. no more & no less.
Sorry, MMORPG screwed up my post, reconstructing it unenhanced:
heremypet wrote: Go ahead then and contradict yourself. It doesn't prove your original statement, nor does it refute my challenge to it.
There's no contradiction whatsoever, you don't need to join a group in order to socialize and make friends, groups are for defeating bosses and high-level content, not for forging friendships. Just because I group with some guy doesn't mean I'm going to be friends with him, chances are I'll never see him again as long as I live.
heremypet wrote: Keep repeating it, but you're wrong. There is plenty to stop them.
You'll have to explain that in detail. What stops *YOU* from grouping with similar-minded players who also want to group? Is your "join team" button broken or something? I see this all the time, what you really mean is that you can't find enough people willing to group with you, therefore you think you get to force everyone to do what *YOU* want so *YOU* have an easier time of it. Fuck what everyone else wants, right?
Mighty damn egotistical of you there.
heremypet wrote: My ability to make friends isn't the question here, and besides, friendship doesn't automatically make players any more willing to group, when the goals could easily be reached solo.
Even if I can solo every shred of content in the game, if a friend sends me a /tell and wants to group, I'll group. Why? That's what friends do.
Maybe the problem is you're confusing people who only want to use you for their own personal XP and loot goals as "friends".
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The whole reason Asshats exist is because of soloing. Everyone solos and, like you said learn to play at different paces, develop this specific standard on how the game should be played, and what skill level it should be played at, but not everyone can develop the same standard of play from soloing. People don't see the flaws in thier play style, because thier play style succeeded all the challenges they faced, and brought them to the last level of the game, they only see how they think somthing should be executed. Unfortunatly, all players see things and play the game thier own way, thus you have people angry with people for not doing in thier way. I think of it as a inherent gaming philosophy developed by a persons personality based off of the type of game content they are subjected to. Furthure more, because they can just go back to soloing the game, they dont care about being a dick to other players. They have nothing to lose from being an asshat.
The whole idea of promoting grouping is to bring everyone to the same page. Players leveling up with other players gives all the players a legitmate chance to adopt the same philosophy on how the game should be played.
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Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None